25 ms·

Sometimes, it’s just time to go home

564 points by johns 12y ago

lovelearning 12y ago
Good for you. If the CEO himself is burning out like this, can't help wondering how much worse their engineers are burning out.
trevmckendrick 12y ago
I don't want to be a wet blanket, but when I read how hard he and others work, the first thought that comes to me is: "I'm not working even close to that level." In a way, it's a glimpse into the reality required to do Great Things. Followed by the painful self-awareness that you're nowhere close.
- kyleblarson 12y ago
  "Great things" means very different things to different people. Working yourself to the point of breaking down just to make money is not a great thing.
- snewman 12y ago
  Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to death is not on the list of requirements, and in fact can often be counter-productive. If you're passionate about your job, you're likely to work hard. But there's a line between "working hard", and overworking. Beyond a certain point, more hours may (or may not) mean more things done, but almost certainly doesn't mean more of the right things done.
  - the_cat_kittles 12y ago
    well said. as a corollary, id say that finding the right balance is really energizing. in some sense, i think its backwards to decide you want to do something "great"- i think its better to get in tune with what kind of processes and styles you like, and let that dictate where you go, knowing that because you are doing things that are suited to you, you are going to progress much faster.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to death is not on the list of requirements If that's true, it should be possible to make a list of companies that have been built without the founders working very hard (or rather, extremely long hours). What are some companies that could go onto such a list? As a filter, let's use criteria "The founders got rich enough not to have to work anymore, or the company went public," since that's generally why people start startups. EDIT: I've updated the question to ask specifically for instances of companies that have IPO'd or been acquired without the founders working extremely long hours, and also to clarify that I'm asking about the founders' working hours, not the employees. Thanks, enjo.
    - enjo 12y ago
      You got the wrong phrase. The question is can you build a successful company without working long hours, not "without working very hard". At Quickoffice we worked very hard. We'd have the occasional long night, but there weren't many even 60 hour weeks being put in.
    - hemantv 12y ago
      I think you are confusing working hard vs working to death. I work hard everyday but at some point in a given day I realize that I am not productive anymore. If something is menial, doesn't require much mental process. Than its okay to keep going but if its something new which require even small amount of mental effort than working super hard is not going to get you anywhere. I also sometimes work late, because I don't want the context switch that will happen if I leave the task in half completed state right now so I want to take it to logical conclusion where it would easy to pickup next day (in most cases I am excited to see the end product of task). As with everything in life there is fine line between working hard vs working yourself to death and nobody else can decide this line for you.
      - sillysaurus3 12y ago
        I agree with everything you've said, but if it's true that you can get rich from a startup without working extremely long hours, we should be able to find some evidence of that. And if there's no evidence, then maybe we should rethink whether it's true.
  - dcw303 12y ago
    Great point. No matter how engrossing or important the work I'm doing is, I've never been able to push myself to work past midnight. Something biological tells me I am done, my brain turns to soup, and I know I've gone past the point of diminishing returns. I've never been able to fool myself into believing that there is any point in doing any more. I look at these guys pushing themselves beyond the point of physical, mental and emotion exhaustion, and I just wonder how they do it. I wonder what drives them go on.
    - jqm 12y ago
      and whatever it is... is it legal?
- birken 12y ago
  This is not the reality of what is required to do great things [1]. This is one path, but there are many others. There are lots of people who work 40-50 hours a week and have incredibly successful startups/companies/whatever. There are people who work 80 hours a week and their startup is a complete piece of garbage. Jamie Zawinski has a great great blog post about this [2], which I'll quote part of: > He's trying to make the point that the only path to success in the software industry is to work insane hours, sleep under your desk, and give up your one and only youth, and if you don't do that, you're a pussy. He's using my words to try and back up that thesis. I hate this, because it's not true, and it's disingenuous. I'm not saying the OP is trying to sell this lie too. He is posting about how he is tired and wants to go home and relax. However, the life he describes is very much in the vein of Jamie's blog post. This lifestyle is not required to succeed, and it may in fact be quite counter-productive (as this blog post is attesting to). If your life isn't like this and you aren't working this hard it really isn't saying anything about how likely to succeed you are. 1: Though I don't know exactly what "great things" is... Making a lot of money? Going to Mars? Getting on the cover of Forbes magazine? Some of these require more effort than others. 2: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/11/watch-a-vc-use-my-name-to-sell-a-con/ http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/11/watch-a-vc-use-my-name-to-se...
  - hudibras 12y ago
    Thanks, I hadn't read that jwz post before. This is another killer quote: >But the people who made 100x as much as the engineers did? I can tell you for a fact that none of them slept under their desk.
    - eitally 12y ago
      They didn't sleep under their desk, but they may well have spend 80% of their nights in hotels, which is worse (imho).
      - scott_karana 12y ago
        Depends on the company, and whether the execs were staying (and golfing) at a five-star...
- serve_yay 12y ago
  Doing great things comes at a great cost. Some people are willing to pay the cost, some think it's too high. The realization that one is unwilling to pay the cost need not be a painful one.
markbao 12y ago
HN'd. Mirror: https://archive.today/QF25G https://archive.today/QF25G
- minikomi 12y ago
  warning : back button breakage. Awesome , gutsy article though.
javajosh 12y ago
Last year I worked for a startup and I allowed myself to be pushed past the breaking point. The founders tempted me with equity (which never actually materialized) and I ended up doing many all nighters and many 90-hour weeks prior to an early release (another company was doing the front-end while we did the server in-house). I don't have a wife or a puppy, but I shouldn't have allowed this to happen. I was hired to work for a set salary under the assumption of a 40-hour work-week - although I am naturally obsessive so I knew that wouldn't actually last. But I didn't expect my boss to say things like, "If we don't have a working build by 3pm tomorrow, we're all fired," (which turned out to be false, actually). Pacing is important, and I think it would be interesting to do a startup where pacing is actively encouraged. I think this might be possible at a startup with strong IP protection, good funding, and leadership that sets realistic goals and trusts it's people to be motivated to get it done. It may mean that the public has to wait a bit longer before having a cool new thing available to them, but it also means that the thing will have been constructed by fresh, happy minds. There is a moral imperative to not buy goods made in sweatshops. There is also a moral imperative to not use software produced under inhumane conditions. Congratulations on discovering this for yourself - and I hope you encourage your coworkers to be humane to each other and themselves as well.
- 127001brewer 12y ago
  If we don't have a working build by 3pm tomorrow, we're all fired... This is a bothersome and worrisome comment that probably has been repeated (in some variation) too often. How is this the fault of the developer(s)? I appreciate that founders need to fulfill their promises, especially when having the backing of investors, but these type of statements seem to indicate a failure in communication and planning (more than execution).
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > The founders tempted me with equity (which never actually materialized) This happens frequently enough that by now it should be a thing that people are 'on to'. If you're being tempted with equity then insist on drawing it up in writing with a solid vesting schedule and don't work a day past the first vesting point without your stock.
yesimahuman 12y ago
Wow, much respect for writing this. While my company isn't quite at Dwolla scale, I've had my own version of too-much-travel this fall, and I am over it. I realized I was making the most impact back home, helping the team create the foundation for us to do more with less. All these conferences and these meetings are rarely world changing. They hold potential opportunities and the start of relationships, but we never know if those opportunities would have come to us through cheaper, more effective means. Travel bothers me so much because it feels incredibly suboptimal, like I'm working harder not smarter.
3pt14159 12y ago
Great article. There are so many different angles to startup burnout, that sometimes it seems like we're playing a really rough game like American football, only instead of head and spine injuries we've got mental health problems and repetitive stress disorders. Early in a startup the big enemy is yourself and poverty. Try to get yourself to finish that feature; to push the product over the line. To persevere after the launch basically goes unnoticed. The burnout is emotional because it's rooted in self doubt. Once a startup starts getting traction a different type of mental stress sets in: a fear of squandering an opportunity. All the late nights are rooted in the fear that your startup has had some luck and some traction, and maybe if you don't push so hard it will become another Excite. Used, but left to the wayside while a better contender came in.
xpop2027 12y ago
Not loading for me, :(
- bbcbasic 12y ago
  http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BYigSwhw http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BYigSwhw
moron4hire 12y ago
One reaction: "grow up". Stop letting other people dictate how you live your life. That is what parents do for children. Becoming an adult means making your own decisions about how to spend your time, and when enough is enough. Grow up. Stop putting other people, ones not even that close to you, first. Grow up.
abuteau 12y ago
It shouldn't be the way. We met Brad Feld last year in Las Vegas (Up Summit) and he talked about his depression[1]. I suggest everyone to read the depression archives on Brad Feld blog [2]. Pretty insightful posts. I tend to be obsessive and I lost someone I really care about because of focus on money and too much work. At the end of the day, you have to focus on your priorities, your wife/family is one and should deserve a decent amount of attention. Brad said that when Amy call him whenever he's in a meeting he will still answer, because she's a priority. Outworking yourself is not likely the way you will succeed in the long run. Work hard != work smart George Bernard Shaw said: "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." 1. http://www.inc.com/magazine/201307/brad-feld/many-entrepreneurs-deal-with-depression.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/201307/brad-feld/many-entreprene... 2. http://www.feld.com/archives/tag/depression http://www.feld.com/archives/tag/depression
- unclebucknasty 12y ago
  I read the following from link 2 in your comment: http://www.feld.com/archives/2014/10/helps-depressed.html http://www.feld.com/archives/2014/10/helps-depressed.html This may be veering off-topic, but reading the suggestions submitted by the reader in that post made me wonder some people (many, in fact) have to actively work so hard to hold off depression. Something is going wrong (organically, culturally, or both) that depression is the default state for so many. Culturally, I think our relationship with work is certainly part of it. And, some personalities (e.g. driven or obsessive) may just be more susceptible.
  - rhizome 12y ago
    Don't forget the industry that they're working in.
  - alexbecker 12y ago
    > Something is going wrong (organically, culturally, or both) that depression is the default state for so many. I'm not convinced that this is any different from the "natural state" of humans (which granted is not completely well-defined). I do not see any reason to expect people to be generally happy. While it's overly reductionist to think of evolution in terms of individual "fitness", it is not clear to me that a general trend of being unhappy (which in slightly more outlying cases becomes depression) decreases fitness. The only obvious effect I can see is suicide, but that's pretty rare statistically speaking, and we have strong self-preservation instincts independent of happiness that are pretty hard to override. Being reliably happy on the other hand is probably ruinous to fitness--what motivation would I have to do anything?
famousactress 12y ago
The saddest thing about this post to me is the fact that he could only write it because his startup is apparently doing great. Most startups aren't, despite the fact that lots of the folks there are in effectively the same personal position and feeling the exact same thing - in addition to the added pressure of not feeling like they measure up to stories like this one because their quarter didn't go nearly as well. I really feel for those people, and I wish they felt more freedom to be honest and public about these kinds of feelings. Rather tangentially - I have a one and a half year old daughter who recently turned a question we posed her ("Woah, kiddo. Are you freaking out!?") on it's head. Now sometimes when she gets wound up she goes full-meta and runs back and forth in the kitchen waving her hands in the air yelling "freaking out!", in self-parody. That reminds me, a little bit, of our startup-culture's relationship to overwork... and don't get me wrong, I don't think articles like this are the ridiculous self-parody, I think they're the really troubling and all-too-real consequence. Put simply I think we need to do a little more wiggling our toes in the carpet and chilling the fuck out. The world's not suffering from a shortage of first-world martyrs. Take a breath, go home, do great work tomorrow, and for God's sake appreciate the fact that you're in the hilariously small fraction of people who get to blog about the pains of working too hard by choice.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  The really bothersome thing is that this isn't a revelation. Posts about burnout--and the subsequent replies commiserating and declaring how important of an issue this is and how the replier has been through their own version and how it isn't right and change is needed and-really-just-read-the-rest-of-this-thread--are a weekly occurrence on this message board alone. Who knows how many people are not commenting (remember the 90/9/1 rule of internet engagement), say nothing about the people who are just plane not here! I started having the notion of starting my own company specifically because I was sick of being treated like nothing more than an input variable on some MBAs Microsoft Excel spreadsheet. Does it make any sort of sense to work myself to death, in that same vein, in my own endeavours? I would have only traded one tyrant whom I could escape for one I'd be stuck with forever: myself.
- mtbcoder 12y ago
  > The saddest thing about this post to me is the fact that he could only write it because his startup is apparently doing great. Agreed. > Most startups aren't, despite the fact that lots of the folks there are in effectively the same personal position and feeling the exact same thing - in addition to the added pressure of not feeling like they measure up to stories like this one because their quarter didn't go nearly as well. I really feel for those people, and I wish they felt more freedom to be honest and public about these kinds of feelings. ...and let's also not forget all the folks who are barely making ends meet at their existing jobs, putting in 60+ hour work weeks for a measly salary that's been stagnate for years or all the folks needing to work an extra job or two just to survive.
alrs 12y ago
Down. Google's cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bwQO1V7radEJ:www.benmilne.com/sometimes-just-go-home/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=iceweasel-a http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bwQO1V7...
ChuckMcM 12y ago
This was a great read. Something to consider in that moment is scale. It is impossible to be an entire company and survive. A CEO I highly respect told me that you can move a truck with a go kart engine, a big transmission, and a lot of coolant, but adding more cylinders is what makes it a truck. He was explaining to me that 'scaling' people was about figuring out how to take what someone was doing really really well, and turning that into a process for doing that thing. Then handing over that thing to the process. The first startup I joined was run by a guy who had not, to my knowledge, ever been more than a line manager (directly managing people who did things, versus managing people who managed people to did things) He had a really really hard time working with the indirection, unable to feel comfortable that things were "in control" unless he went and talked to the actual people doing the work himself. As the company got bigger that became a bigger and bigger issue for him. He didn't scale, and I could tell that there would come a time when he would be 110% subscribed with tasks that he couldn't figure out how to delegate. The message about getting home though is really really important. Too many people are sleeping at work because they have no home to go home to any more. If you can set a goal for 'quality hours with the family per week' and when that is in jeopardy due to work commitments restructure work to reduce its impact.
nickbauman 12y ago
I can't help but feel the whole startup culture is a conflict of mission writ large in two ways. First, you're trying to make people's lives better while deleting the idea of a better life for yourself. Second, execution is everything. But when you're working like this the quality of execution inevitably degrades. I've done startups. At the end I got better at what I was doing but I wasn't ultimately proud of the work I did. The startup even succeeded (I helped other people get rich, I just made a living). Many startups don't even do that.
8f2ab37a-ed6c 12y ago
The startup thing has been both amazing and incredibly devastating. Haven't seen my folks in years. Spouse dumped me because I practically didn't exist outside of work. Absolutely no hobbies or traveling in years. No guarantee the company will be anything but a massive drop in my financial history. You're constantly running out of money, so you're cutting every unnecessary expense, and you're living on scraps for years, knowing that you could be making 10x that much in the workforce. You can't quit though because so many people look up to you for direction, they need you to be there and lead them, to be certain of where you're going. The stress can be so high you just want to roll up in fetal in a corner and disappear. You understand why so many founders end their lives. The experiences however and the connections are priceless. The feeling of playing the game on your terms is liberating and the hope of the upside is exhilarating, but I still wish the price wasn't so high. The amount of personal growth is astounding: once you go through the above, everything else feels like easy mode. You have to develop resilience, charisma, diplomacy, discipline and so many other traits or you will sink fast. In hindsight, I don't know if I'd do anything differently. When you're this deep, you try not to dwell on hypotheticals. I remember many years ago when I was sold to the startup lifestyle by the sexiness of the message, but the dozens of PG essays and stories of success and freedom. Nowadays I caution people to truly dig deep and understand if this is worth it to them, ask them if they're ready to sacrifice everything for likely nothing at all. Ultimately we're slaves of power law and similar to Hollywood talent in our outcomes: a very small fraction of us is going to becomes gods through either luck or huge sacrifice, and 99.9% of us will be waiting tables for the rest of our lives, or decide to do something else.
- santoshalper 12y ago
  Even here, you can't help but romanticize your experience. If you could see through the silicon valley delusion you've been fed, you would realize that you destroyed your life, your marriage, and most of your personal relationships, probably for nothing. You say you have developed these incredible skills, and perhaps you have. What will they do for you... what is your endgame? Perhaps your next startup will be massive success and you will be rich, but will you be happy with no relationships? Who will be happy for your success that is not also making money from it? You have been conned into playing a game you cannot win at the cost of your humanity. Run away now.
johnvschmitt 12y ago
2 big points I've learned & want to share on this topic: 1) In the smart long-term play, family & few close friends are most important. Everything else (including your startup) is trivial. 2) Even if you value your startup at 100% value (over family/friends/health/life), you're incredibly short-sited and killing your own startup baby if you don't have some balance in your life. Startup life is NOT a sprint. It's a marathon. To give the BEST to your startup, you need to bring your BEST every day. Phrased another way, I often ask, "Let's say you're going to be interviewed on the Colbert Report, or other big-huge-friggin' deal tomorrow, what would you do today?" Often, people say, "I'll eat well, build something, hug my family, build something, help someone, build more, chat with a friend, take a walk, build more, play a game, go to bed early" So, if that's what you do to bring your BEST tomorrow, then what would you do if you wanted to bring your BEST EVERY day? That tends to drive home the message that work-life balance isn't just helping your life, it's truly what matters to helping your work too. Corollary: If you're overstressed, you aren't helping your work. Often, overstressed people at startups will add much more friction in the small team, hurting efficiency as arguments & disrespect poisons the day's actions. Not to mention the zombie-brain mistakes in execution when you're not taking proper care of yourself.
- gerbilly 12y ago
  Totally agree, you have to keep some energy in reserve to handle the unexpected. To go further, if you want to do more than just handle the unexpected (which is kind of like putting out a fire) you will need to bring wisdom to the situation. Developing wisdom requires an even greater reserve of energy _and_ some downtime to reflect.
andrea_s 12y ago
Aren't we done yet with the rhetoric of "making the world a better place"/"improving people's lives"? I can't help but think about HBO's Silicon Valley every time I read this kind of thing...
deleted 12y ago
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Animats 12y ago
This guy is the CEO. So, by definition, this is a management problem. Dwolla has some money now; they can hire people. This guy needs to learn how to build a staff and delegate. He's only done startups, and hasn't worked in a long-established company where they have this figured out. Some founders have trouble letting go of control. They want to do it all themselves. That doesn't scale.
- bretpiatt 12y ago
  Saying, "they can just hire people" is quite flippant. No matter how many people a CEO hires there is always more that they can do. Using a topic he discussed the f.ounders event... he cannot hire someone to go to it -- that event is exclusively for founders. By not attending he's missing out on a BD opportunity. Could he have hired someone to cover the BoFA or other meetings? Maybe? Maybe not -- would BoFA take the meeting with the brand new BD team member? Would that member be as effective? "Luck" is preparation meeting opportunity and as you're rapidly scaling any business scaling a team that is prepared and ready to take on the opportunities in front of you is as hard or harder than any technology scaling problem the business will face.
  - solistice 12y ago
    I do think that there's a number of things the CEO shouldn't be doing though. Who was it, Dan Kennedy or someone put it quite aptly "Your job as a CEO is to make sure money keeps coming. Not making sure the printer works or whether the office is clean or any number of things that don't relate to your main goal". Going to a f.ounders event might be part of that, or overhauling the sales funnel or making sure that the next version of the product just kicks ass. Cleaning your own office proably isn't.
- gambiting 12y ago
  Exactly. My parents have been running a company since they were both in their twenties. Starting in a country where literally no one has heard of funding or investment(early years after communism fell), they have started with nearly nothing. For the past 20 years they have been spending every second of their time at work, well into their forties. They kept growing, hiring more people(now almost 200), opening more shops, and they just couldn't manage, there's only so many places you could be in at once. Until in the last few years they hired a couple managers to take the load off their backs. Now they only need to visit our offices a couple times a week, are a lot more relaxed than they were some time ago. But my point is - they didn't arrive at this conclusion that they need managers by themselves. They always thought that if they spent 5 minutes left at the office the whole thing would fall apart. Someone else told them that they will burn our completely if they don't start hiring other people to do their work - and it worked. There's no point in having money if you never have time to spend it.
deleted 12y ago
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tomasien 12y ago
I just re-booked my flight to get home from Vegas (where Ben just was) a day earlier as well. My team was super confused about this - but y'all, sometimes you just need to go home and sometimes you just need to be alone.
tomasien 12y ago
I just re-booked my flight to get home from Vegas (where Ben just was) a day earlier as well. My team was super confused about this - but y'all, sometimes you just need to go home and sometimes you just need to be alone.
partisan 12y ago
It's pretty standard to take a break after a long period of hard work. Especially if it starts to feel like burnout. I'll probably write an enlightening blog post one day about how sometimes you have to take a nap during the day, especially if you feel sleepy. I'll encapsulate it into a life lesson: Don't lie to yourself, you are sleepy so just take that nap.
yason 12y ago
Life is now. If you‘re doing something for money so that you can live your life the way you want later, that doesn‘t work because it takes time to learn to live your life the way you want. Typically it takes a lifetime to do that, so you must start early: you must start now if you wish to make it. Otherwise you‘ll end up with a lot of cash and no idea of what kind of life makes you fulfilled. If you‘re doing something to make a difference – or to make the world a better place – then if you feel like you‘re running out of time then you‘re probably doing it wrong. That sort of goals are rarely if ever such undertakings that are constrained by time. Paradoxically, life is short yet there‘s always plenty of time so as to not have to hurry things. If you work madly for a few years what is it that you think you‘ll win from it if you compare doing that thing you can‘t not do for decades? Or maybe you weren‘t doing a thing you can‘t not do in the first place? Rush is a sign that you have grown an inflated sense of importance. Nothing is that important, not even the important things. If you‘re building a company, you have all the time to grow the business. Some families have been doing that for centuries, many individuals for decades. If you have a really great idea, take the time to work on it. If you‘re lucky, someone else does the same thing and finishes faster than you which means you don‘t have to do it at all! You can just enjoy the benefits of the addition of widget X or feature Y in the pool of things tangible in our lives. Maybe the idea wasn‘t that unique after all. But some ideas are and thosee you can work on for years. For many things in life, building them slower makes them last longer. Even a good relationship or a family tree. For these reasons, I consider it a better approach to weave the things you can‘t not do and your life together. This removes a divide: life goes on at its own pace and along comes your calling but they‘re not in conflict. There‘s no contrast between work and family, or business and private life because everything is scattered around in the timeline of your life in small pieces. There‘s always some work but there‘s always home and family too. Neither is more important than the other and none of the areas can continuously hog a big chunk of your focus. Daddy must work now, daddy has to write an important email because those people need daddy‘s opinion. I can‘t have the meeting today, I need to cook dinner and water the garden with my daughter.
- prof_hobart 12y ago
  For most people a vanishingly small amount of life is now. Most of it has either already happened, or more importantly is still to come. I agree that there's a need to balance the now and planning for the future, and an awful lot of start ups seem, at least to me, to get the balance badly wrong. But there are often sacrifices you need to do now to gain far bigger rewards in the future. Whether that's resisting that dessert sat in front of you because you want to be 50lbs lighter, saving money now so that you don't starve in retirement, or sometimes trading off time with the family for time spent working so that you've still got a job or a company in 5 years time.
bpmilne 12y ago
Hey all. You folks killed my weak little blog server. Memory has been maxed and rebooted. Hopefully will stay online for a bit.
- rocky1138 12y ago
  Why are you mucking with a web server? Take a break!
startupgrinder 12y ago
I wish I had the balls to write this post. Mine would certainly not be so honest and raw. It's also sad that it comes to this. I get home for dinner but work till midnight. I'm in town for birthdays but leave at 6am the next morning. I still talk to my very best friends but no one else. I hope to heaven that the startup never ruins my marriage but it's not impossible to see it could happen. Maybe these "compromises" mean I will never quite get to that level - but regardless I'm not willing to do compromise them. At any expense.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > I hope to heaven that the startup never ruins my marriage That's probably already happening, you're just not being told/aware of it yet. If you're only in town for birthdays and leave at 6 am the next morning and wreck your social life you're well underway. Been there, done that so take it from me as an experience to avoid.
  - startupgrinder 12y ago
    Thank you for the concern. This is not happening, I'm just saying that as a founder I can understand how people's obsession can go overboard and ruin important stuff. Clay Christensen's "How to Measure Your Life" is the best book on this subject and is a guiding principle for me. If my wife said "You need to quit your startup it's ruining us" I would do it in a second. As much as I love what I do, it's not even close to the plane and importance of my family.
- Mimu 12y ago
  > "I hope to heaven that the startup never ruins my marriage but it's not impossible to see it could happen" I know it's (way) easier said than done, but I would suggets to stop hoping and start doing. I have never been married nor in a big commitment relationship, but I would assume than when you start thinking that a bad thing could happen, it's probably happening right now, or soon. Good luck anyway, hope everything work out for you.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
lumberjack 12y ago
Perhaps there could be something in between a startup and a job as an employee. Startups are rewarding because you are not simply an employee but also part owner and they are hard because you have to undertake a lot of extra work and responsibility and risk. Maybe there could be a third way were you are part owner but undertake less risk and less responsibility and less work. Imagine a startup where instead of the typical 2/3 founders 3/15 employees you have a 15 employees who all share an equal amount of ownership and responsibility. The point of such a startup would be to provide better working terms and better pay than one would get when working as an employee or contractor but at the same time lessen exposure to risk and responsibility. I don't know how doable it is but I always thought that it was strange that most startups were trying to emulate the same corporate structure the, founders themselves probably wanted to avoid because it didn't suit them very well as employees. Sorry for going of tangent but it's just random idea that crept into my head and wanted to share.
- archagon 12y ago
  There is such a thing — a cooperative! One famous example is the Cheeseboard in Berkeley, a cheese shop and pizzeria that has been worker owned and operated since the 60's with wild success. Seeing how happy, creative, and productive the staff there is makes me wish that we had more organizations operating in this manner. Kind of a tangent, but there's a lot to be said for cooperative living, too. One of my favorite experiences in college was living in a student cooperative. There were about 40 of us in a large, early 20th century Victorian house, each taking on a fair share of maintenance, cooking, and management. Every decision, including major ones like renovating parts of the house, was made democratically and collectively: there was no real centralized oversight. (There was a "central office" for the entire co-op system — itself largely made up of house representatives — but they mostly stayed out of individual house affairs.) Important positions such as president or workshift manager were voted in collectively and had certain benefits, like decreased rent or less hours required per week. It worked well for the most part, and many lifelong friendships were forged in the house. I think it would be an interesting experiment to get a bunch of self-motivated creative folks together in such an environment and have them work on projects together. Perhaps the members would be selected by occupation, so that there's a solid pool of artists, programmers, designers, writers, etc. at all times. A majority of the money generated from these projects would go towards the members' collective benefit. Projects would be formed spontaneously, either by individuals working alone, or by people trying to "recruit" other members — kind of like how Valve does things. A combination of cooperative living and cooperative working. I know it's not for everyone, and maybe it's a pipe dream, but the idea really appeals to me!
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robinduckett 12y ago
Newsflash: Startup founder struggles with Work / Life balance and ends up not seeing his wife over Halloween.
dmak 12y ago
Almost 2 years ago, I had three major things going on in my life. I was working at another startup in San Francisco, finishing my Computer Science degree from SJSU, and being a boyfriend of a 4 year relationship with my then girlfriend. At the time, I was really worried about doing well in my career as well as making sure I don't fail my courses otherwise I would be held back and be even more miserable. I had to commute between San Jose and San Francisco every other day. I put much of my time into the startup, and naturally that took away my time from other things. In hindsight and after reading this blog post, I realised how much I overlooked and have developed further understanding on how things played out. But yeah, great blog post, it is important to learn to identify what is happening and realise the gradual damages taking place before its broken.
orofino 12y ago
I'm reading this while sitting in a restaurant in Nepal. My wife and I are here for around three weeks for hiking to Everest Base Camp. After this, we are headed to China for 11 days. In total, I'm going to be out from work for 5 weeks. Almost three years ago we quit our jobs, sold our house and travelled for 9 months through South America, Antarctica, and Europe. I work at a startup. I'm the product manager and we are rebuilding the product from the ground up, in December we will have been working on the rebuild for a full year and our first beta customers will be starting on the new platform. The five weeks immediately previous to that, I'm out of the office for an extended period. This is to say, you have to make the time for yourself. We both work hard, both of our new jobs (which are way better than our pre big trip jobs btw) allowed us to take this five weeks without much hassle. The team will survive and I'll come back refreshed and ready to tackle new problems. Perhaps some think our startup will fail because someone took time off for this long, I'll tell you that I sure don't.
- genwin 12y ago
  Good for you. Always work to live, not the opposite. It can be work just to figure out what you enjoy.
- jacalata 12y ago
  I would love to read about your trip to everest base camp - the website link in your profile doesn't appear to work, do you have a blog?
- contingencies 12y ago
  Hey, I'm on the eastern edge of the Himalayas near Kunming, the capital of Yunnan, China. While 11 days isn't much so I doubt it, if you guys are planning to visit Yunnan you are welcome to come sailing on our huge alpine lake. :)
notastartup 12y ago
This article really made my stomach churn because it really hit home. If I had a one tenth of the success these guys are having I'd tell myself to keep going. However, working on the project alone, for the past couple of years has been devastating. I've really no more friends left as a result of blindly pursuiting my passion. I admit it hasn't even been worth it to this date. But something, this lizard brain keeps telling me to go go go don't stop. I've been working on my project off with about 3 years of full time development and 2 years of working at a job to support myself. I don't know. I'm super confused and agitated after reading this article. I had this gut feeling not to read the article but I did it anyways. I will probably continue. Crazy.
- 72deluxe 12y ago
  You sound to be in a bad way. Remember, people are more important than things. When you see African countries torn up and people fleeing with nothing, do you stop and think "why aren't they carrying all their important belongings?" The belongings and "stuff" are worthless; they can always acquire things again. What is important to them is their family and friends. You cannot easily acquire lost friends again. But you can acquire "stuff" again. Things don't make you happy; people do. Out of interest, what have you been working on?
facepalm 12y ago
What is driving the stressfulness of startup life? Is it the fear of being overtaken by the competition? Or the excitement of unlimited possibilities, so you an always try more?
bakhy 12y ago
With the advent of startups, this is the new normal for IT workers. The best part - after all this effort, majority will none the less fail. But in the meanwhile they will be doing huge amounts of work, while their investors can breathe easy, no need to worry much about overtimes, vacations, sick leaves, finding work for people after the project ends, etc. This system is rigged against us, but a truly IT specific thing is that so many of us enjoy exploiting ourselves like this. Sure, many people would start their business anyway, but now we're dealing with a trend, "everyone" is doing it, it's the hip way to be, and there's very little criticism about this model, if any. The failures are merely presented as lessons to learn, it's rarely considered to call the emperor naked, to stop the show. This text is nice, family is important, but this is from someone who can afford it, now that he has succeeded. I see no retrospect, no reflection here - could he have cancelled trips like this years ago, when he was still fighting? Is that what he is suggesting to people now? I don't think so, and that makes it all sound just so hollow.
Htsthbjig 12y ago
When I was young I met a Spanish tennis player called Rafael Nadal when he was a kid. He was managed and coached by his uncle who had experience in being a professional football player. What shocked me is that he did not sacrifice Rafael's life like most of other kids that could be good(examples like Michael Jackson or in tennis the Wiilians' sisters or Arantxa Sanchez Vicario in Spain). At the time everybody believed that if Rafael was not sent to Barcelona to a tennis Boarding school without seeing their family and giving it all to tennis, he couldn't make it. Toni, his uncle, believed that if he were to be a good tennis player sacrificing everything else, it was not worth it. Rafael got to be the best Spanish player of all time. When I created my company I wanted to be rich, but rich meant not just money, but having time to make love to my wife, see my children grow or reading and writing in HN. At the end, you discover you could delegate lots of work.
- lazyant 12y ago
  > Rafael got to be the best Spanish player of all time. Easily considered the world's 2nd best tennis player ever, with chances of being the best tennis player ever.
- wellboy 12y ago
  Excellent story. While I think it's worth throwing oneself into a startup for a few years, because there are learnings you will get this way, that you will never get anywhere else, there should be a long term vision. The story of Rafael Nadal is great and applies to startups 100%, because the best founder is the one who has a balanced life and can make use of all of his creativity. A startup founder who doesn't have a life besides the startup, simply won't create a huge startup. Yes, they might be able to make a few hundred million, but they won't be the ones creating a transformative startup.
- antaviana 12y ago
  Just a small correction. Rafa Nadal trainer is not the former professional football player Miguel Angel Nadal (who is also Rafa's uncle) but Miguel Angel's brother, Toni Nadal.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
jayantsethi 12y ago
One of the most beautiful articles I've read lately. Reminds me of how I took the decision of coming back to stay with my family from a far off place, leaving behind an excellent opportunity, just to spend more time with my lovely family
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
yegor256a 12y ago
am I supposed to cry?
KobaQ 12y ago
That's the inevitable consequence of being overambitious. This pattern is the same, regardless of the area within which these folks try to become more powerful, rich or famous than others. At BMW a former director told some trainees that he's the most lonely person in the world. Lost his wife, kids and friends. Hobbies? None. Money? More than can be spend. Power? You bet. "Too soon old, too late wise" is true even for extraordinary achievers like this guy. I always like to point out to those younger folks that they need to be aware of their true motivation. To 99 % in the startup scene or at the big companies it's not to make the world a better place. It's not to be creative and productive. The main drive is ambition. That's OK, it's human. But it needs to be controlled. When you are aware of your true selfish motivation, it's easier to stop when it's all too much. You do it for yourself, not your family (you would choose a solid 9 to 5 job) or the world.
- ilamont 12y ago
  To 99% in the startup scene or at the big companies it's not to make the world a better place. It's not to be creative and productive. The main drive is ambition. I'm not so sure about that. I'm also not convinced "most founders are in it to get filthy rich," as lemming says elsewhere in this thread. I think there's a spectrum of motivations, including: * Ambition * Creative drive/wanting to build something * Aversion to corporate culture/large organizations * Opportunity to make a lot of money * Social needs * Other It's possible to have multiple motivations. But the one that interests me is "social needs." This includes everything from wanting to work with a great team to doing something because it's the "hot thing" or the activity that gets the most respect in the community. The recent news about YC applications rising 40% YOY may reflect some of that, and also explains the huge turnout for pitch events, networking sessions, etc.
phesse14 12y ago
I did really like this post. Many thanks for sharing since most of us, including me, are relunctant to write these kind of things down Is the price of being an entrepreneur high? Yes, it is. I do not know anyone enrolled in "creating something from the scratch" that might contradict the prior statement Do we have to learn to put some limits to the price we are paying? Definitely yes, and this guy is putting a name to a lot of muted voices. Personally, I do not distinct so much between my personal or professional time since in my case I do love what I do, but I try not to bother F&Fs with conversations about startups and I do try to talk about other topics. This has double benefits. One not to bother others (as mentioned) and Two open your mind talking about things you don't usually have the opportunity to discuss about
lorenzfx 12y ago
Looking at dwolla's site and seeing "Eliminate paper checks", I realised how lucky we in Germany are, that even though Germany is a pretty backwards country in some regards, at least we managed to get rid of paper checks a long time ago.
calinet6 12y ago
People ignore the systems surrounding themselves. Their life, the things supporting their happiness, and the things put in place to ensure your work functions in your absence, even just in the absence of being at home for dinner every night. Put the right systems in place, whether it be delegation, or software, or a personal task management system (GTD is all about systems), and you don't have to worry about work all the time. You lead it by leading the right systems to function and continually improve themselves. A systems-focused approach to work would improve every company because it's closer to reality. The reason we don't have the ability to put things down is because we make ourselves into the critical system of function, and that makes us part of the machine. Build a better machine you can trust instead. Remove yourself as a dependency. Start with Deming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming
edpichler 12y ago
The best path is the middle. I learned this in some book about Buddhism. We must have a balanced life. Life is a long trip. The end is the objective and, of course, very important, but we also need to enjoy the travel.
seletz 12y ago
So I'll stop to pretend to "be at the office" now and actually go home to see my kids. No joke.
benjaminwootton 12y ago
Great article. I've been doing a startup this year and despite best intentions it really does take a toll on yourself and people around you.
barbudorojo 12y ago
What surprised me is the "Buy me a coffee" barner. It is supposed they are having a big success with BBVA selling their product/application. The business sound really interesting, but "buy me a coffee" doesn't give the impression I should like to receive for such a product. I was expecting to see something about how our product is the top one in security or any other required feature. Perhaps I am a little harsh, but if you guy are having success now and you want to give a good impression I should take the banner out. Also, I find it completely right to rebalance your life, now is the moment in which you can take a little rest and recover from the strenuous effort and stress. Is not only a desire, if a necessity for your enterprise to go on, don't get burned! Enjoy family, get your batteries full, let your mind and mood recover. Cheers.
- knd775 12y ago
  I would agree if it were the company blog, but this is his personal site. He may not need the money, but the button uses Dwolla's form builder. He probably just wanted a reason to use his own product. I don't see much wrong with that.
dddrh 12y ago
If you have never read The Monk and The Riddle, I would highly suggest it. The experiences that are shared and the story that is woven lends some really good perspective on our lack of an ability to focus on what is important now versus what will be important later. It's a short read and worth every page.
nevergetenglish 12y ago
What I see and makes me to reflect is that we allow ourselves to be rewarded (go home) when we are on the way to success. But what happens when we are in the worse part of a start-up? Harsh, very harsh.
scottndecker 12y ago
Great post. Wish more people would be honest that we aren't invincible. Use things, love people; not the other way around. Our society needs more influence on family. Good work.
AndrewKemendo 12y ago
I am constantly the contrarian in these cases, but not for sake of being contrary, it's just that I genuinely do not relate. I would kill to be in Ben's place. He is making an impact. We aren't reading his words because he is a great dad or husband or whatever, he is impacting us and making us spill thousands of words because he is making something impactful. I could never turn that off, nothing is as great in my opinion. So like I said, I don't get it. If anything the more substantive work that is piled on (not bullshit bureaucratic stuff), the more effective I am across all components. Maybe I'm wierd. Anyone who does this type of work for a living and responds negatively to you saying “I’m unable to make it, I miss my family and want+need to spend some time at home” isn’t a friend, partner, or an investor you should want to work with anyway. See, at the same time I understand this also, because not all people are like me and just love doing good work they are passionate about. So when my co-founders or partners say things like this, its great because I know that they need that time and we will adjust things to give it to them. The last thing I will say is this: No one's legacy is based on how good of a dad/partner they were.
- untog 12y ago
  No one's legacy is based on how good of a dad/partner they were. What the actual hell? You really think that? Let's take another view: Dwolla might tank. It could be dead and gone within a year - that's how startups work. What is "impactful" today can be forgotten within six months. Your legacy literally is how good a dad you were because the only legacy you can really rely on (within reason, of course) is your children and your family. I challenge you to find a father that does not think their "work" with their child is not "impactful". I would argue that we are spilling thousands of words on his post because we identify with it emotionally, not because he is the founder of Dwolla. I barely know anything about the startup and I care even less, but his words still resonated with me - that's why I'm here.
  - AndrewKemendo 12y ago
    the only legacy you can really rely on (within reason, of course) is your children and your family Except that is completely untrue. Every family I have ever encountered is split and bifurcated and generally not that reliable. True they exist, but by and large families are not that reliable. I'm a father of three and have studied parenting outcomes for a while now. My children's outcomes in life are marginally related to how available I am as a parent beyond a certain minimal threshold - more important are socioeconomic factors. Even if you take that into account, even the most perfectly raised children (Whatever that means) have a high chance of winding up in an outcome that is less than optimal based on parental expectations - assuming that you have some aspirational expectations to begin with for them. All that is to say that raising kids is a crap shoot and outcomes, either for you or for them, do not necessarily correlate with effort spent. Again, caveat this with "beyond a certain point" which is the bar of not living in poverty - arguably one major benefit of being successful in business.
gerbilly 12y ago
It's just a startup-a type of work organization operating in the first world, staffed by people who can find another job in a few weeks if it should fail. It's basically an exciting game for privileged people with too much time on their hands. The worst outcome is you have to go work at a regular job. Relax, no one is being sent to the scaffold over this!
cimorene12 12y ago
Reminds me of Startups Anonymous, except he has the courage to put his name out there. https://startupsanonymous.com/ https://startupsanonymous.com/
durbin 12y ago
How one extremely successful entrepreneur manages his time. - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8574978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8574978
smoyer 12y ago
A start-up is a sprint to profitability ... except it's a distance run that tests your endurance. I did this for a long time and managed a reasonable balance by paying very close attention to my pace. When I was sprinting at full pace, I learned that I could only reasonably expect about 5-6 weeks before I crashed (hard). I always planned for a much more relaxed pace for a couple months afterwards. On the other hand, if we had a long-term project I could plan about 55-60 hours per week maximum, but I could sustain that pace almost indefinitely while still maintaining a life. If you're doing continuous 80+ hour weeks you need to stop now ... if you don't, your body will fail you and other parts of your life will degrade (relationships). It's simply not worth it ... a few extra bills in your pocket is not going to compensate for missing life.

564 points by johns 12y ago

Good for you. If the CEO himself is burning out like this, can't help wondering how much worse their engineers are burning out.

trevmckendrick 12y ago

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but when I read how hard he and others work, the first thought that comes to me is: "I'm not working even close to that level." In a way, it's a glimpse into the reality required to do Great Things. Followed by the painful self-awareness that you're nowhere close.

kyleblarson 12y ago
"Great things" means very different things to different people. Working yourself to the point of breaking down just to make money is not a great thing.
snewman 12y ago
Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to death is not on the list of requirements, and in fact can often be counter-productive. If you're passionate about your job, you're likely to work hard. But there's a line between "working hard", and overworking. Beyond a certain point, more hours may (or may not) mean more things done, but almost certainly doesn't mean more of the right things done.
- the_cat_kittles 12y ago
  well said. as a corollary, id say that finding the right balance is really energizing. in some sense, i think its backwards to decide you want to do something "great"- i think its better to get in tune with what kind of processes and styles you like, and let that dictate where you go, knowing that because you are doing things that are suited to you, you are going to progress much faster.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Great Things require dedication, passion, and vision. Working yourself to death is not on the list of requirements If that's true, it should be possible to make a list of companies that have been built without the founders working very hard (or rather, extremely long hours). What are some companies that could go onto such a list? As a filter, let's use criteria "The founders got rich enough not to have to work anymore, or the company went public," since that's generally why people start startups. EDIT: I've updated the question to ask specifically for instances of companies that have IPO'd or been acquired without the founders working extremely long hours, and also to clarify that I'm asking about the founders' working hours, not the employees. Thanks, enjo.
  - enjo 12y ago
    You got the wrong phrase. The question is can you build a successful company without working long hours, not "without working very hard". At Quickoffice we worked very hard. We'd have the occasional long night, but there weren't many even 60 hour weeks being put in.
  - hemantv 12y ago
    I think you are confusing working hard vs working to death. I work hard everyday but at some point in a given day I realize that I am not productive anymore. If something is menial, doesn't require much mental process. Than its okay to keep going but if its something new which require even small amount of mental effort than working super hard is not going to get you anywhere. I also sometimes work late, because I don't want the context switch that will happen if I leave the task in half completed state right now so I want to take it to logical conclusion where it would easy to pickup next day (in most cases I am excited to see the end product of task). As with everything in life there is fine line between working hard vs working yourself to death and nobody else can decide this line for you.
    - sillysaurus3 12y ago
      I agree with everything you've said, but if it's true that you can get rich from a startup without working extremely long hours, we should be able to find some evidence of that. And if there's no evidence, then maybe we should rethink whether it's true.
- dcw303 12y ago
  Great point. No matter how engrossing or important the work I'm doing is, I've never been able to push myself to work past midnight. Something biological tells me I am done, my brain turns to soup, and I know I've gone past the point of diminishing returns. I've never been able to fool myself into believing that there is any point in doing any more. I look at these guys pushing themselves beyond the point of physical, mental and emotion exhaustion, and I just wonder how they do it. I wonder what drives them go on.
  - jqm 12y ago
    and whatever it is... is it legal?
birken 12y ago
This is not the reality of what is required to do great things [1]. This is one path, but there are many others. There are lots of people who work 40-50 hours a week and have incredibly successful startups/companies/whatever. There are people who work 80 hours a week and their startup is a complete piece of garbage. Jamie Zawinski has a great great blog post about this [2], which I'll quote part of: > He's trying to make the point that the only path to success in the software industry is to work insane hours, sleep under your desk, and give up your one and only youth, and if you don't do that, you're a pussy. He's using my words to try and back up that thesis. I hate this, because it's not true, and it's disingenuous. I'm not saying the OP is trying to sell this lie too. He is posting about how he is tired and wants to go home and relax. However, the life he describes is very much in the vein of Jamie's blog post. This lifestyle is not required to succeed, and it may in fact be quite counter-productive (as this blog post is attesting to). If your life isn't like this and you aren't working this hard it really isn't saying anything about how likely to succeed you are. 1: Though I don't know exactly what "great things" is... Making a lot of money? Going to Mars? Getting on the cover of Forbes magazine? Some of these require more effort than others. 2: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/11/watch-a-vc-use-my-name-to-sell-a-con/ http://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/11/watch-a-vc-use-my-name-to-se...
- hudibras 12y ago
  Thanks, I hadn't read that jwz post before. This is another killer quote: >But the people who made 100x as much as the engineers did? I can tell you for a fact that none of them slept under their desk.
  - eitally 12y ago
    They didn't sleep under their desk, but they may well have spend 80% of their nights in hotels, which is worse (imho).
    - scott_karana 12y ago
      Depends on the company, and whether the execs were staying (and golfing) at a five-star...
serve_yay 12y ago
Doing great things comes at a great cost. Some people are willing to pay the cost, some think it's too high. The realization that one is unwilling to pay the cost need not be a painful one.

markbao 12y ago

HN'd. Mirror: https://archive.today/QF25G https://archive.today/QF25G

minikomi 12y ago
warning : back button breakage. Awesome , gutsy article though.

javajosh 12y ago

Last year I worked for a startup and I allowed myself to be pushed past the breaking point. The founders tempted me with equity (which never actually materialized) and I ended up doing many all nighters and many 90-hour weeks prior to an early release (another company was doing the front-end while we did the server in-house). I don't have a wife or a puppy, but I shouldn't have allowed this to happen. I was hired to work for a set salary under the assumption of a 40-hour work-week - although I am naturally obsessive so I knew that wouldn't actually last. But I didn't expect my boss to say things like, "If we don't have a working build by 3pm tomorrow, we're all fired," (which turned out to be false, actually). Pacing is important, and I think it would be interesting to do a startup where pacing is actively encouraged. I think this might be possible at a startup with strong IP protection, good funding, and leadership that sets realistic goals and trusts it's people to be motivated to get it done. It may mean that the public has to wait a bit longer before having a cool new thing available to them, but it also means that the thing will have been constructed by fresh, happy minds. There is a moral imperative to not buy goods made in sweatshops. There is also a moral imperative to not use software produced under inhumane conditions. Congratulations on discovering this for yourself - and I hope you encourage your coworkers to be humane to each other and themselves as well.

127001brewer 12y ago
If we don't have a working build by 3pm tomorrow, we're all fired... This is a bothersome and worrisome comment that probably has been repeated (in some variation) too often. How is this the fault of the developer(s)? I appreciate that founders need to fulfill their promises, especially when having the backing of investors, but these type of statements seem to indicate a failure in communication and planning (more than execution).
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jacquesm 12y ago
> The founders tempted me with equity (which never actually materialized) This happens frequently enough that by now it should be a thing that people are 'on to'. If you're being tempted with equity then insist on drawing it up in writing with a solid vesting schedule and don't work a day past the first vesting point without your stock.

yesimahuman 12y ago

Wow, much respect for writing this. While my company isn't quite at Dwolla scale, I've had my own version of too-much-travel this fall, and I am over it. I realized I was making the most impact back home, helping the team create the foundation for us to do more with less. All these conferences and these meetings are rarely world changing. They hold potential opportunities and the start of relationships, but we never know if those opportunities would have come to us through cheaper, more effective means. Travel bothers me so much because it feels incredibly suboptimal, like I'm working harder not smarter.

3pt14159 12y ago

Great article. There are so many different angles to startup burnout, that sometimes it seems like we're playing a really rough game like American football, only instead of head and spine injuries we've got mental health problems and repetitive stress disorders. Early in a startup the big enemy is yourself and poverty. Try to get yourself to finish that feature; to push the product over the line. To persevere after the launch basically goes unnoticed. The burnout is emotional because it's rooted in self doubt. Once a startup starts getting traction a different type of mental stress sets in: a fear of squandering an opportunity. All the late nights are rooted in the fear that your startup has had some luck and some traction, and maybe if you don't push so hard it will become another Excite. Used, but left to the wayside while a better contender came in.

xpop2027 12y ago

Not loading for me, :(

bbcbasic 12y ago
http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BYigSwhw http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=BYigSwhw

moron4hire 12y ago

One reaction: "grow up". Stop letting other people dictate how you live your life. That is what parents do for children. Becoming an adult means making your own decisions about how to spend your time, and when enough is enough. Grow up. Stop putting other people, ones not even that close to you, first. Grow up.

abuteau 12y ago

It shouldn't be the way. We met Brad Feld last year in Las Vegas (Up Summit) and he talked about his depression[1]. I suggest everyone to read the depression archives on Brad Feld blog [2]. Pretty insightful posts. I tend to be obsessive and I lost someone I really care about because of focus on money and too much work. At the end of the day, you have to focus on your priorities, your wife/family is one and should deserve a decent amount of attention. Brad said that when Amy call him whenever he's in a meeting he will still answer, because she's a priority. Outworking yourself is not likely the way you will succeed in the long run. Work hard != work smart George Bernard Shaw said: "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." 1. http://www.inc.com/magazine/201307/brad-feld/many-entrepreneurs-deal-with-depression.html http://www.inc.com/magazine/201307/brad-feld/many-entreprene... 2. http://www.feld.com/archives/tag/depression http://www.feld.com/archives/tag/depression

unclebucknasty 12y ago
I read the following from link 2 in your comment: http://www.feld.com/archives/2014/10/helps-depressed.html http://www.feld.com/archives/2014/10/helps-depressed.html This may be veering off-topic, but reading the suggestions submitted by the reader in that post made me wonder some people (many, in fact) have to actively work so hard to hold off depression. Something is going wrong (organically, culturally, or both) that depression is the default state for so many. Culturally, I think our relationship with work is certainly part of it. And, some personalities (e.g. driven or obsessive) may just be more susceptible.
- rhizome 12y ago
  Don't forget the industry that they're working in.
- alexbecker 12y ago
  > Something is going wrong (organically, culturally, or both) that depression is the default state for so many. I'm not convinced that this is any different from the "natural state" of humans (which granted is not completely well-defined). I do not see any reason to expect people to be generally happy. While it's overly reductionist to think of evolution in terms of individual "fitness", it is not clear to me that a general trend of being unhappy (which in slightly more outlying cases becomes depression) decreases fitness. The only obvious effect I can see is suicide, but that's pretty rare statistically speaking, and we have strong self-preservation instincts independent of happiness that are pretty hard to override. Being reliably happy on the other hand is probably ruinous to fitness--what motivation would I have to do anything?

famousactress 12y ago

The saddest thing about this post to me is the fact that he could only write it because his startup is apparently doing great. Most startups aren't, despite the fact that lots of the folks there are in effectively the same personal position and feeling the exact same thing - in addition to the added pressure of not feeling like they measure up to stories like this one because their quarter didn't go nearly as well. I really feel for those people, and I wish they felt more freedom to be honest and public about these kinds of feelings. Rather tangentially - I have a one and a half year old daughter who recently turned a question we posed her ("Woah, kiddo. Are you freaking out!?") on it's head. Now sometimes when she gets wound up she goes full-meta and runs back and forth in the kitchen waving her hands in the air yelling "freaking out!", in self-parody. That reminds me, a little bit, of our startup-culture's relationship to overwork... and don't get me wrong, I don't think articles like this are the ridiculous self-parody, I think they're the really troubling and all-too-real consequence. Put simply I think we need to do a little more wiggling our toes in the carpet and chilling the fuck out. The world's not suffering from a shortage of first-world martyrs. Take a breath, go home, do great work tomorrow, and for God's sake appreciate the fact that you're in the hilariously small fraction of people who get to blog about the pains of working too hard by choice.

moron4hire 12y ago
The really bothersome thing is that this isn't a revelation. Posts about burnout--and the subsequent replies commiserating and declaring how important of an issue this is and how the replier has been through their own version and how it isn't right and change is needed and-really-just-read-the-rest-of-this-thread--are a weekly occurrence on this message board alone. Who knows how many people are not commenting (remember the 90/9/1 rule of internet engagement), say nothing about the people who are just plane not here! I started having the notion of starting my own company specifically because I was sick of being treated like nothing more than an input variable on some MBAs Microsoft Excel spreadsheet. Does it make any sort of sense to work myself to death, in that same vein, in my own endeavours? I would have only traded one tyrant whom I could escape for one I'd be stuck with forever: myself.
mtbcoder 12y ago
> The saddest thing about this post to me is the fact that he could only write it because his startup is apparently doing great. Agreed. > Most startups aren't, despite the fact that lots of the folks there are in effectively the same personal position and feeling the exact same thing - in addition to the added pressure of not feeling like they measure up to stories like this one because their quarter didn't go nearly as well. I really feel for those people, and I wish they felt more freedom to be honest and public about these kinds of feelings. ...and let's also not forget all the folks who are barely making ends meet at their existing jobs, putting in 60+ hour work weeks for a measly salary that's been stagnate for years or all the folks needing to work an extra job or two just to survive.

alrs 12y ago

Down. Google's cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bwQO1V7radEJ:www.benmilne.com/sometimes-just-go-home/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=iceweasel-a http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bwQO1V7...

ChuckMcM 12y ago

This was a great read. Something to consider in that moment is scale. It is impossible to be an entire company and survive. A CEO I highly respect told me that you can move a truck with a go kart engine, a big transmission, and a lot of coolant, but adding more cylinders is what makes it a truck. He was explaining to me that 'scaling' people was about figuring out how to take what someone was doing really really well, and turning that into a process for doing that thing. Then handing over that thing to the process. The first startup I joined was run by a guy who had not, to my knowledge, ever been more than a line manager (directly managing people who did things, versus managing people who managed people to did things) He had a really really hard time working with the indirection, unable to feel comfortable that things were "in control" unless he went and talked to the actual people doing the work himself. As the company got bigger that became a bigger and bigger issue for him. He didn't scale, and I could tell that there would come a time when he would be 110% subscribed with tasks that he couldn't figure out how to delegate. The message about getting home though is really really important. Too many people are sleeping at work because they have no home to go home to any more. If you can set a goal for 'quality hours with the family per week' and when that is in jeopardy due to work commitments restructure work to reduce its impact.

nickbauman 12y ago

I can't help but feel the whole startup culture is a conflict of mission writ large in two ways. First, you're trying to make people's lives better while deleting the idea of a better life for yourself. Second, execution is everything. But when you're working like this the quality of execution inevitably degrades. I've done startups. At the end I got better at what I was doing but I wasn't ultimately proud of the work I did. The startup even succeeded (I helped other people get rich, I just made a living). Many startups don't even do that.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 12y ago

The startup thing has been both amazing and incredibly devastating. Haven't seen my folks in years. Spouse dumped me because I practically didn't exist outside of work. Absolutely no hobbies or traveling in years. No guarantee the company will be anything but a massive drop in my financial history. You're constantly running out of money, so you're cutting every unnecessary expense, and you're living on scraps for years, knowing that you could be making 10x that much in the workforce. You can't quit though because so many people look up to you for direction, they need you to be there and lead them, to be certain of where you're going. The stress can be so high you just want to roll up in fetal in a corner and disappear. You understand why so many founders end their lives. The experiences however and the connections are priceless. The feeling of playing the game on your terms is liberating and the hope of the upside is exhilarating, but I still wish the price wasn't so high. The amount of personal growth is astounding: once you go through the above, everything else feels like easy mode. You have to develop resilience, charisma, diplomacy, discipline and so many other traits or you will sink fast. In hindsight, I don't know if I'd do anything differently. When you're this deep, you try not to dwell on hypotheticals. I remember many years ago when I was sold to the startup lifestyle by the sexiness of the message, but the dozens of PG essays and stories of success and freedom. Nowadays I caution people to truly dig deep and understand if this is worth it to them, ask them if they're ready to sacrifice everything for likely nothing at all. Ultimately we're slaves of power law and similar to Hollywood talent in our outcomes: a very small fraction of us is going to becomes gods through either luck or huge sacrifice, and 99.9% of us will be waiting tables for the rest of our lives, or decide to do something else.

santoshalper 12y ago
Even here, you can't help but romanticize your experience. If you could see through the silicon valley delusion you've been fed, you would realize that you destroyed your life, your marriage, and most of your personal relationships, probably for nothing. You say you have developed these incredible skills, and perhaps you have. What will they do for you... what is your endgame? Perhaps your next startup will be massive success and you will be rich, but will you be happy with no relationships? Who will be happy for your success that is not also making money from it? You have been conned into playing a game you cannot win at the cost of your humanity. Run away now.

johnvschmitt 12y ago

2 big points I've learned & want to share on this topic: 1) In the smart long-term play, family & few close friends are most important. Everything else (including your startup) is trivial. 2) Even if you value your startup at 100% value (over family/friends/health/life), you're incredibly short-sited and killing your own startup baby if you don't have some balance in your life. Startup life is NOT a sprint. It's a marathon. To give the BEST to your startup, you need to bring your BEST every day. Phrased another way, I often ask, "Let's say you're going to be interviewed on the Colbert Report, or other big-huge-friggin' deal tomorrow, what would you do today?" Often, people say, "I'll eat well, build something, hug my family, build something, help someone, build more, chat with a friend, take a walk, build more, play a game, go to bed early" So, if that's what you do to bring your BEST tomorrow, then what would you do if you wanted to bring your BEST EVERY day? That tends to drive home the message that work-life balance isn't just helping your life, it's truly what matters to helping your work too. Corollary: If you're overstressed, you aren't helping your work. Often, overstressed people at startups will add much more friction in the small team, hurting efficiency as arguments & disrespect poisons the day's actions. Not to mention the zombie-brain mistakes in execution when you're not taking proper care of yourself.

gerbilly 12y ago
Totally agree, you have to keep some energy in reserve to handle the unexpected. To go further, if you want to do more than just handle the unexpected (which is kind of like putting out a fire) you will need to bring wisdom to the situation. Developing wisdom requires an even greater reserve of energy _and_ some downtime to reflect.

andrea_s 12y ago

Aren't we done yet with the rhetoric of "making the world a better place"/"improving people's lives"? I can't help but think about HBO's Silicon Valley every time I read this kind of thing...

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Animats 12y ago

This guy is the CEO. So, by definition, this is a management problem. Dwolla has some money now; they can hire people. This guy needs to learn how to build a staff and delegate. He's only done startups, and hasn't worked in a long-established company where they have this figured out. Some founders have trouble letting go of control. They want to do it all themselves. That doesn't scale.

bretpiatt 12y ago
Saying, "they can just hire people" is quite flippant. No matter how many people a CEO hires there is always more that they can do. Using a topic he discussed the f.ounders event... he cannot hire someone to go to it -- that event is exclusively for founders. By not attending he's missing out on a BD opportunity. Could he have hired someone to cover the BoFA or other meetings? Maybe? Maybe not -- would BoFA take the meeting with the brand new BD team member? Would that member be as effective? "Luck" is preparation meeting opportunity and as you're rapidly scaling any business scaling a team that is prepared and ready to take on the opportunities in front of you is as hard or harder than any technology scaling problem the business will face.
- solistice 12y ago
  I do think that there's a number of things the CEO shouldn't be doing though. Who was it, Dan Kennedy or someone put it quite aptly "Your job as a CEO is to make sure money keeps coming. Not making sure the printer works or whether the office is clean or any number of things that don't relate to your main goal". Going to a f.ounders event might be part of that, or overhauling the sales funnel or making sure that the next version of the product just kicks ass. Cleaning your own office proably isn't.
gambiting 12y ago
Exactly. My parents have been running a company since they were both in their twenties. Starting in a country where literally no one has heard of funding or investment(early years after communism fell), they have started with nearly nothing. For the past 20 years they have been spending every second of their time at work, well into their forties. They kept growing, hiring more people(now almost 200), opening more shops, and they just couldn't manage, there's only so many places you could be in at once. Until in the last few years they hired a couple managers to take the load off their backs. Now they only need to visit our offices a couple times a week, are a lot more relaxed than they were some time ago. But my point is - they didn't arrive at this conclusion that they need managers by themselves. They always thought that if they spent 5 minutes left at the office the whole thing would fall apart. Someone else told them that they will burn our completely if they don't start hiring other people to do their work - and it worked. There's no point in having money if you never have time to spend it.

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tomasien 12y ago

I just re-booked my flight to get home from Vegas (where Ben just was) a day earlier as well. My team was super confused about this - but y'all, sometimes you just need to go home and sometimes you just need to be alone.

tomasien 12y ago

partisan 12y ago

It's pretty standard to take a break after a long period of hard work. Especially if it starts to feel like burnout. I'll probably write an enlightening blog post one day about how sometimes you have to take a nap during the day, especially if you feel sleepy. I'll encapsulate it into a life lesson: Don't lie to yourself, you are sleepy so just take that nap.

yason 12y ago

Life is now. If you‘re doing something for money so that you can live your life the way you want later, that doesn‘t work because it takes time to learn to live your life the way you want. Typically it takes a lifetime to do that, so you must start early: you must start now if you wish to make it. Otherwise you‘ll end up with a lot of cash and no idea of what kind of life makes you fulfilled. If you‘re doing something to make a difference – or to make the world a better place – then if you feel like you‘re running out of time then you‘re probably doing it wrong. That sort of goals are rarely if ever such undertakings that are constrained by time. Paradoxically, life is short yet there‘s always plenty of time so as to not have to hurry things. If you work madly for a few years what is it that you think you‘ll win from it if you compare doing that thing you can‘t not do for decades? Or maybe you weren‘t doing a thing you can‘t not do in the first place? Rush is a sign that you have grown an inflated sense of importance. Nothing is that important, not even the important things. If you‘re building a company, you have all the time to grow the business. Some families have been doing that for centuries, many individuals for decades. If you have a really great idea, take the time to work on it. If you‘re lucky, someone else does the same thing and finishes faster than you which means you don‘t have to do it at all! You can just enjoy the benefits of the addition of widget X or feature Y in the pool of things tangible in our lives. Maybe the idea wasn‘t that unique after all. But some ideas are and thosee you can work on for years. For many things in life, building them slower makes them last longer. Even a good relationship or a family tree. For these reasons, I consider it a better approach to weave the things you can‘t not do and your life together. This removes a divide: life goes on at its own pace and along comes your calling but they‘re not in conflict. There‘s no contrast between work and family, or business and private life because everything is scattered around in the timeline of your life in small pieces. There‘s always some work but there‘s always home and family too. Neither is more important than the other and none of the areas can continuously hog a big chunk of your focus. Daddy must work now, daddy has to write an important email because those people need daddy‘s opinion. I can‘t have the meeting today, I need to cook dinner and water the garden with my daughter.

prof_hobart 12y ago
For most people a vanishingly small amount of life is now. Most of it has either already happened, or more importantly is still to come. I agree that there's a need to balance the now and planning for the future, and an awful lot of start ups seem, at least to me, to get the balance badly wrong. But there are often sacrifices you need to do now to gain far bigger rewards in the future. Whether that's resisting that dessert sat in front of you because you want to be 50lbs lighter, saving money now so that you don't starve in retirement, or sometimes trading off time with the family for time spent working so that you've still got a job or a company in 5 years time.

bpmilne 12y ago

Hey all. You folks killed my weak little blog server. Memory has been maxed and rebooted. Hopefully will stay online for a bit.

rocky1138 12y ago
Why are you mucking with a web server? Take a break!

startupgrinder 12y ago

I wish I had the balls to write this post. Mine would certainly not be so honest and raw. It's also sad that it comes to this. I get home for dinner but work till midnight. I'm in town for birthdays but leave at 6am the next morning. I still talk to my very best friends but no one else. I hope to heaven that the startup never ruins my marriage but it's not impossible to see it could happen. Maybe these "compromises" mean I will never quite get to that level - but regardless I'm not willing to do compromise them. At any expense.

jacquesm 12y ago
> I hope to heaven that the startup never ruins my marriage That's probably already happening, you're just not being told/aware of it yet. If you're only in town for birthdays and leave at 6 am the next morning and wreck your social life you're well underway. Been there, done that so take it from me as an experience to avoid.
- startupgrinder 12y ago
  Thank you for the concern. This is not happening, I'm just saying that as a founder I can understand how people's obsession can go overboard and ruin important stuff. Clay Christensen's "How to Measure Your Life" is the best book on this subject and is a guiding principle for me. If my wife said "You need to quit your startup it's ruining us" I would do it in a second. As much as I love what I do, it's not even close to the plane and importance of my family.
Mimu 12y ago
> "I hope to heaven that the startup never ruins my marriage but it's not impossible to see it could happen" I know it's (way) easier said than done, but I would suggets to stop hoping and start doing. I have never been married nor in a big commitment relationship, but I would assume than when you start thinking that a bad thing could happen, it's probably happening right now, or soon. Good luck anyway, hope everything work out for you.
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lumberjack 12y ago

Perhaps there could be something in between a startup and a job as an employee. Startups are rewarding because you are not simply an employee but also part owner and they are hard because you have to undertake a lot of extra work and responsibility and risk. Maybe there could be a third way were you are part owner but undertake less risk and less responsibility and less work. Imagine a startup where instead of the typical 2/3 founders 3/15 employees you have a 15 employees who all share an equal amount of ownership and responsibility. The point of such a startup would be to provide better working terms and better pay than one would get when working as an employee or contractor but at the same time lessen exposure to risk and responsibility. I don't know how doable it is but I always thought that it was strange that most startups were trying to emulate the same corporate structure the, founders themselves probably wanted to avoid because it didn't suit them very well as employees. Sorry for going of tangent but it's just random idea that crept into my head and wanted to share.

archagon 12y ago
There is such a thing — a cooperative! One famous example is the Cheeseboard in Berkeley, a cheese shop and pizzeria that has been worker owned and operated since the 60's with wild success. Seeing how happy, creative, and productive the staff there is makes me wish that we had more organizations operating in this manner. Kind of a tangent, but there's a lot to be said for cooperative living, too. One of my favorite experiences in college was living in a student cooperative. There were about 40 of us in a large, early 20th century Victorian house, each taking on a fair share of maintenance, cooking, and management. Every decision, including major ones like renovating parts of the house, was made democratically and collectively: there was no real centralized oversight. (There was a "central office" for the entire co-op system — itself largely made up of house representatives — but they mostly stayed out of individual house affairs.) Important positions such as president or workshift manager were voted in collectively and had certain benefits, like decreased rent or less hours required per week. It worked well for the most part, and many lifelong friendships were forged in the house. I think it would be an interesting experiment to get a bunch of self-motivated creative folks together in such an environment and have them work on projects together. Perhaps the members would be selected by occupation, so that there's a solid pool of artists, programmers, designers, writers, etc. at all times. A majority of the money generated from these projects would go towards the members' collective benefit. Projects would be formed spontaneously, either by individuals working alone, or by people trying to "recruit" other members — kind of like how Valve does things. A combination of cooperative living and cooperative working. I know it's not for everyone, and maybe it's a pipe dream, but the idea really appeals to me!

juline 12y ago

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juline 12y ago

robinduckett 12y ago

Newsflash: Startup founder struggles with Work / Life balance and ends up not seeing his wife over Halloween.

dmak 12y ago

Almost 2 years ago, I had three major things going on in my life. I was working at another startup in San Francisco, finishing my Computer Science degree from SJSU, and being a boyfriend of a 4 year relationship with my then girlfriend. At the time, I was really worried about doing well in my career as well as making sure I don't fail my courses otherwise I would be held back and be even more miserable. I had to commute between San Jose and San Francisco every other day. I put much of my time into the startup, and naturally that took away my time from other things. In hindsight and after reading this blog post, I realised how much I overlooked and have developed further understanding on how things played out. But yeah, great blog post, it is important to learn to identify what is happening and realise the gradual damages taking place before its broken.

orofino 12y ago

I'm reading this while sitting in a restaurant in Nepal. My wife and I are here for around three weeks for hiking to Everest Base Camp. After this, we are headed to China for 11 days. In total, I'm going to be out from work for 5 weeks. Almost three years ago we quit our jobs, sold our house and travelled for 9 months through South America, Antarctica, and Europe. I work at a startup. I'm the product manager and we are rebuilding the product from the ground up, in December we will have been working on the rebuild for a full year and our first beta customers will be starting on the new platform. The five weeks immediately previous to that, I'm out of the office for an extended period. This is to say, you have to make the time for yourself. We both work hard, both of our new jobs (which are way better than our pre big trip jobs btw) allowed us to take this five weeks without much hassle. The team will survive and I'll come back refreshed and ready to tackle new problems. Perhaps some think our startup will fail because someone took time off for this long, I'll tell you that I sure don't.

genwin 12y ago
Good for you. Always work to live, not the opposite. It can be work just to figure out what you enjoy.
jacalata 12y ago
I would love to read about your trip to everest base camp - the website link in your profile doesn't appear to work, do you have a blog?
contingencies 12y ago
Hey, I'm on the eastern edge of the Himalayas near Kunming, the capital of Yunnan, China. While 11 days isn't much so I doubt it, if you guys are planning to visit Yunnan you are welcome to come sailing on our huge alpine lake. :)

notastartup 12y ago

This article really made my stomach churn because it really hit home. If I had a one tenth of the success these guys are having I'd tell myself to keep going. However, working on the project alone, for the past couple of years has been devastating. I've really no more friends left as a result of blindly pursuiting my passion. I admit it hasn't even been worth it to this date. But something, this lizard brain keeps telling me to go go go don't stop. I've been working on my project off with about 3 years of full time development and 2 years of working at a job to support myself. I don't know. I'm super confused and agitated after reading this article. I had this gut feeling not to read the article but I did it anyways. I will probably continue. Crazy.

72deluxe 12y ago
You sound to be in a bad way. Remember, people are more important than things. When you see African countries torn up and people fleeing with nothing, do you stop and think "why aren't they carrying all their important belongings?" The belongings and "stuff" are worthless; they can always acquire things again. What is important to them is their family and friends. You cannot easily acquire lost friends again. But you can acquire "stuff" again. Things don't make you happy; people do. Out of interest, what have you been working on?

facepalm 12y ago

What is driving the stressfulness of startup life? Is it the fear of being overtaken by the competition? Or the excitement of unlimited possibilities, so you an always try more?

bakhy 12y ago

With the advent of startups, this is the new normal for IT workers. The best part - after all this effort, majority will none the less fail. But in the meanwhile they will be doing huge amounts of work, while their investors can breathe easy, no need to worry much about overtimes, vacations, sick leaves, finding work for people after the project ends, etc. This system is rigged against us, but a truly IT specific thing is that so many of us enjoy exploiting ourselves like this. Sure, many people would start their business anyway, but now we're dealing with a trend, "everyone" is doing it, it's the hip way to be, and there's very little criticism about this model, if any. The failures are merely presented as lessons to learn, it's rarely considered to call the emperor naked, to stop the show. This text is nice, family is important, but this is from someone who can afford it, now that he has succeeded. I see no retrospect, no reflection here - could he have cancelled trips like this years ago, when he was still fighting? Is that what he is suggesting to people now? I don't think so, and that makes it all sound just so hollow.

Htsthbjig 12y ago

When I was young I met a Spanish tennis player called Rafael Nadal when he was a kid. He was managed and coached by his uncle who had experience in being a professional football player. What shocked me is that he did not sacrifice Rafael's life like most of other kids that could be good(examples like Michael Jackson or in tennis the Wiilians' sisters or Arantxa Sanchez Vicario in Spain). At the time everybody believed that if Rafael was not sent to Barcelona to a tennis Boarding school without seeing their family and giving it all to tennis, he couldn't make it. Toni, his uncle, believed that if he were to be a good tennis player sacrificing everything else, it was not worth it. Rafael got to be the best Spanish player of all time. When I created my company I wanted to be rich, but rich meant not just money, but having time to make love to my wife, see my children grow or reading and writing in HN. At the end, you discover you could delegate lots of work.

lazyant 12y ago
> Rafael got to be the best Spanish player of all time. Easily considered the world's 2nd best tennis player ever, with chances of being the best tennis player ever.
wellboy 12y ago
Excellent story. While I think it's worth throwing oneself into a startup for a few years, because there are learnings you will get this way, that you will never get anywhere else, there should be a long term vision. The story of Rafael Nadal is great and applies to startups 100%, because the best founder is the one who has a balanced life and can make use of all of his creativity. A startup founder who doesn't have a life besides the startup, simply won't create a huge startup. Yes, they might be able to make a few hundred million, but they won't be the ones creating a transformative startup.
antaviana 12y ago
Just a small correction. Rafa Nadal trainer is not the former professional football player Miguel Angel Nadal (who is also Rafa's uncle) but Miguel Angel's brother, Toni Nadal.
sliverstorm 12y ago

jayantsethi 12y ago

One of the most beautiful articles I've read lately. Reminds me of how I took the decision of coming back to stay with my family from a far off place, leaving behind an excellent opportunity, just to spend more time with my lovely family

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yegor256a 12y ago

am I supposed to cry?

KobaQ 12y ago

That's the inevitable consequence of being overambitious. This pattern is the same, regardless of the area within which these folks try to become more powerful, rich or famous than others. At BMW a former director told some trainees that he's the most lonely person in the world. Lost his wife, kids and friends. Hobbies? None. Money? More than can be spend. Power? You bet. "Too soon old, too late wise" is true even for extraordinary achievers like this guy. I always like to point out to those younger folks that they need to be aware of their true motivation. To 99 % in the startup scene or at the big companies it's not to make the world a better place. It's not to be creative and productive. The main drive is ambition. That's OK, it's human. But it needs to be controlled. When you are aware of your true selfish motivation, it's easier to stop when it's all too much. You do it for yourself, not your family (you would choose a solid 9 to 5 job) or the world.

ilamont 12y ago
To 99% in the startup scene or at the big companies it's not to make the world a better place. It's not to be creative and productive. The main drive is ambition. I'm not so sure about that. I'm also not convinced "most founders are in it to get filthy rich," as lemming says elsewhere in this thread. I think there's a spectrum of motivations, including: * Ambition * Creative drive/wanting to build something * Aversion to corporate culture/large organizations * Opportunity to make a lot of money * Social needs * Other It's possible to have multiple motivations. But the one that interests me is "social needs." This includes everything from wanting to work with a great team to doing something because it's the "hot thing" or the activity that gets the most respect in the community. The recent news about YC applications rising 40% YOY may reflect some of that, and also explains the huge turnout for pitch events, networking sessions, etc.

phesse14 12y ago

I did really like this post. Many thanks for sharing since most of us, including me, are relunctant to write these kind of things down Is the price of being an entrepreneur high? Yes, it is. I do not know anyone enrolled in "creating something from the scratch" that might contradict the prior statement Do we have to learn to put some limits to the price we are paying? Definitely yes, and this guy is putting a name to a lot of muted voices. Personally, I do not distinct so much between my personal or professional time since in my case I do love what I do, but I try not to bother F&Fs with conversations about startups and I do try to talk about other topics. This has double benefits. One not to bother others (as mentioned) and Two open your mind talking about things you don't usually have the opportunity to discuss about

lorenzfx 12y ago

Looking at dwolla's site and seeing "Eliminate paper checks", I realised how lucky we in Germany are, that even though Germany is a pretty backwards country in some regards, at least we managed to get rid of paper checks a long time ago.

calinet6 12y ago

People ignore the systems surrounding themselves. Their life, the things supporting their happiness, and the things put in place to ensure your work functions in your absence, even just in the absence of being at home for dinner every night. Put the right systems in place, whether it be delegation, or software, or a personal task management system (GTD is all about systems), and you don't have to worry about work all the time. You lead it by leading the right systems to function and continually improve themselves. A systems-focused approach to work would improve every company because it's closer to reality. The reason we don't have the ability to put things down is because we make ourselves into the critical system of function, and that makes us part of the machine. Build a better machine you can trust instead. Remove yourself as a dependency. Start with Deming: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

edpichler 12y ago

The best path is the middle. I learned this in some book about Buddhism. We must have a balanced life. Life is a long trip. The end is the objective and, of course, very important, but we also need to enjoy the travel.

seletz 12y ago

So I'll stop to pretend to "be at the office" now and actually go home to see my kids. No joke.

benjaminwootton 12y ago

Great article. I've been doing a startup this year and despite best intentions it really does take a toll on yourself and people around you.

barbudorojo 12y ago

What surprised me is the "Buy me a coffee" barner. It is supposed they are having a big success with BBVA selling their product/application. The business sound really interesting, but "buy me a coffee" doesn't give the impression I should like to receive for such a product. I was expecting to see something about how our product is the top one in security or any other required feature. Perhaps I am a little harsh, but if you guy are having success now and you want to give a good impression I should take the banner out. Also, I find it completely right to rebalance your life, now is the moment in which you can take a little rest and recover from the strenuous effort and stress. Is not only a desire, if a necessity for your enterprise to go on, don't get burned! Enjoy family, get your batteries full, let your mind and mood recover. Cheers.

knd775 12y ago
I would agree if it were the company blog, but this is his personal site. He may not need the money, but the button uses Dwolla's form builder. He probably just wanted a reason to use his own product. I don't see much wrong with that.

dddrh 12y ago

If you have never read The Monk and The Riddle, I would highly suggest it. The experiences that are shared and the story that is woven lends some really good perspective on our lack of an ability to focus on what is important now versus what will be important later. It's a short read and worth every page.

nevergetenglish 12y ago

What I see and makes me to reflect is that we allow ourselves to be rewarded (go home) when we are on the way to success. But what happens when we are in the worse part of a start-up? Harsh, very harsh.

scottndecker 12y ago

Great post. Wish more people would be honest that we aren't invincible. Use things, love people; not the other way around. Our society needs more influence on family. Good work.

AndrewKemendo 12y ago

I am constantly the contrarian in these cases, but not for sake of being contrary, it's just that I genuinely do not relate. I would kill to be in Ben's place. He is making an impact. We aren't reading his words because he is a great dad or husband or whatever, he is impacting us and making us spill thousands of words because he is making something impactful. I could never turn that off, nothing is as great in my opinion. So like I said, I don't get it. If anything the more substantive work that is piled on (not bullshit bureaucratic stuff), the more effective I am across all components. Maybe I'm wierd. Anyone who does this type of work for a living and responds negatively to you saying “I’m unable to make it, I miss my family and want+need to spend some time at home” isn’t a friend, partner, or an investor you should want to work with anyway. See, at the same time I understand this also, because not all people are like me and just love doing good work they are passionate about. So when my co-founders or partners say things like this, its great because I know that they need that time and we will adjust things to give it to them. The last thing I will say is this: No one's legacy is based on how good of a dad/partner they were.

untog 12y ago
No one's legacy is based on how good of a dad/partner they were. What the actual hell? You really think that? Let's take another view: Dwolla might tank. It could be dead and gone within a year - that's how startups work. What is "impactful" today can be forgotten within six months. Your legacy literally is how good a dad you were because the only legacy you can really rely on (within reason, of course) is your children and your family. I challenge you to find a father that does not think their "work" with their child is not "impactful". I would argue that we are spilling thousands of words on his post because we identify with it emotionally, not because he is the founder of Dwolla. I barely know anything about the startup and I care even less, but his words still resonated with me - that's why I'm here.
- AndrewKemendo 12y ago
  the only legacy you can really rely on (within reason, of course) is your children and your family Except that is completely untrue. Every family I have ever encountered is split and bifurcated and generally not that reliable. True they exist, but by and large families are not that reliable. I'm a father of three and have studied parenting outcomes for a while now. My children's outcomes in life are marginally related to how available I am as a parent beyond a certain minimal threshold - more important are socioeconomic factors. Even if you take that into account, even the most perfectly raised children (Whatever that means) have a high chance of winding up in an outcome that is less than optimal based on parental expectations - assuming that you have some aspirational expectations to begin with for them. All that is to say that raising kids is a crap shoot and outcomes, either for you or for them, do not necessarily correlate with effort spent. Again, caveat this with "beyond a certain point" which is the bar of not living in poverty - arguably one major benefit of being successful in business.

gerbilly 12y ago

It's just a startup-a type of work organization operating in the first world, staffed by people who can find another job in a few weeks if it should fail. It's basically an exciting game for privileged people with too much time on their hands. The worst outcome is you have to go work at a regular job. Relax, no one is being sent to the scaffold over this!

cimorene12 12y ago

Reminds me of Startups Anonymous, except he has the courage to put his name out there. https://startupsanonymous.com/ https://startupsanonymous.com/

durbin 12y ago

How one extremely successful entrepreneur manages his time. - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8574978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8574978

smoyer 12y ago

A start-up is a sprint to profitability ... except it's a distance run that tests your endurance. I did this for a long time and managed a reasonable balance by paying very close attention to my pace. When I was sprinting at full pace, I learned that I could only reasonably expect about 5-6 weeks before I crashed (hard). I always planned for a much more relaxed pace for a couple months afterwards. On the other hand, if we had a long-term project I could plan about 55-60 hours per week maximum, but I could sustain that pace almost indefinitely while still maintaining a life. If you're doing continuous 80+ hour weeks you need to stop now ... if you don't, your body will fail you and other parts of your life will degrade (relationships). It's simply not worth it ... a few extra bills in your pocket is not going to compensate for missing life.