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Say Goodbye to the Last Vacuum Tube Product
- j_baker 12y agoAhem... the last vacuum tube product? http://www.samsung.com/us/2012-vacuum-tube-amplifier/ http://www.samsung.com/us/2012-vacuum-tube-amplifier/
- adestefan 12y agoThey're also very common in linear RF amplifies.
- ori_b 12y agoThe last useful vacuum tube product. Tube amps distort the sound more, and clip more gradually. This basically means that a digital amplifier can perfectly emulate a vacuum tube amplifier as long as you aren't maxing out the range and clipping the digital amplifier. (You may need a slightly higher rating on the digital amplifier to achieve the same volume.)
- ska 12y agoThe whole point of the continued popularity of tube amps is to drive them too hard and get interesting noises ... people have been trying to duplicated that in digital for decades, and failed.
- kazinator 12y agoThey keep failing because they keep creating integrated "modeling amp" products which put the original amount of wattage in the back end, and that destroys the model at volume: you start hearing the break up of the back-end amplifier. They are doing that to save costs: real tube amplifiers continue to be posed as higher end at higher prices. A decently modeling amplifier would probably need several hundred watts, if not into the thousands, just to replicate a 50W tube combo at volume. The speaker cabinet and drivers would have to be different: high fidelity units, not guitar speakers. I think people do get good results when they plug their modern amp modeling digital signal processors directly into a loud PA system, where the models find a decent amount of headroom and fidelity to reproduce what they are doing at loud volume.
- ArkyBeagle 12y agoPeople report good results with the AxeFx rigs. If you just want "interesting noises" the VST plugin FuncShaper from Met-RS works great for adding distortion. It's a lifesaver on direct bass tracks. Pipe that thru a convolution of a good impulse response from a nice amp and you can't tell the difference easily.
- tripzilch 12y ago> people have been trying to duplicated that in digital for decades, and failed. Because decades ago we simply didn't have the processing power to that kind of DSP. Today, however, you carry that kind of processing power in your pocket. It used to be really hard, because (amongst other things) the oversampling required to avoid digital aliasing. This is not really a big deal anymore, today. Also, it so happens to be the kind of calculation that parallelises very nicely. I can really recommend this video to dispel the myths about what we supposedly can't to today in the digital domain: http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml (the guy also presents the matter really well, I found it very enjoyable to watch, even if I already knew over half the things he explains). To really make his case, he feeds signals to both a digital and an analogue frequency analyser.
- kazinator 12y agoAccording to (some) tube afficinados, you can simulate pre-amplifier can emulate a tube pre-amplifier: small-signal elements based on tubes can be substituted with silicon. However, you probably can't emulate that big signal stuff that goes on between the tube power amp, its output transformer and a speaker, and the sound that ultimately emerges. That is to say, not in the same amount of wattage, and with the same speaker. Maybe a 5,000 watt rig (amplifier and speakers) could faithfully emulate what comes out of a fully cranked 50W tube amplifier, its output transformer, and a specific 50W loud speaker. As a related illustration of the idea, it is common to see microphones in front of small tube amplifiers, which then feed into a large PA system. The small amplifier acts as the "signal processor" which produces the tone, and the PA just makes it bigger. It has the headroom to do that. In that scenario, the tube amplifier with a microphone in front of it can be replaced by digital modeling: something which produces the same transfer function as what occurs between the signal from the instrument, and the signal going into the console's microphone input.
- mikeytown2 12y agoA Class T amplifier[1] is the closest you can get to a tube. One of the amplifiers, the TA2020 (1998), was named one of the twenty-five chips that 'shook the world" by the IEEE Spectrum magazine.[2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_T_amplifier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_T_amplifier [2] http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/processors/25-microchips-that-shook-the-world/0 http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/processors/25-microc...
- morganvachon 12y agoI take it you're not a guitarist. Tube amps can generate tones and sounds that are impossible to emulate accurately via solid state. I've owned some really nice solid state amps that can do amazing things, but even a shitty tube amp can do overdriven fuzz better than any solid state amp.
- kyllo 12y agoExactly, when the tube gets warmed up and you crank up the pre-amp gain you get a warm-sounding natural distortion that afaik is impossible to emulate with a digital amp. I used to have a Marshall JCM 2000 Dual Super Lead, that thing sounded amazing.
- Johnythree 12y ago> afaik is impossible to emulate with a digital amp Absolutely not impossible. If you can define it you can design it.
- driverdan 12y ago> impossible Not impossible. Hard, expensive, or currently not available but not impossible.
- xellisx 12y agoLine 6 does a pretty good job at it.
- morganvachon 12y agoTrue, but for some people "pretty good" isn't enough. As I said before, I've had some very nice solid state amps that I loved playing through. It's just that there are some sounds that have yet to be emulated properly via modern circuitry. Granted, it's all subjective; why does a Fender sound better or worse than a Gibson for a particular style of music? It all comes down to what kind of sound the musician wants to get out of his equipment, and if a solid state amp doesn't give him what he wants but a tube amp does, then I'd say the tube amp is still relevant.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- Semiapies 12y ago"Maybe the magnetron is really not the last vacuum tube product" Not by far. A more obvious example than the ones the article gives would be tube amplifiers.
- lkrubner 12y agoI think this article is focused on consumer products? Last time I checked, large scale items such as radar were still using vacuum tubes. I know there were huge breakthroughs in solid-state radar back in the 1990s, but I don't think that technology has seen a wide commercial roll-out.
- AnimalMuppet 12y agoI went to college with this guy who was on a scholarship to study tube design. (This would have been 1981 or 1982.) I said, "What are you studying that for? Semiconductors are going to make tubes obsolete." He said, "You have 6000 amps you're trying to control. Try that in a transistor." I mean, yes, there are schemes that try to use multiple high-current transistors in parallel, but... 6000 amps is a lot of current for semiconductors, even today.
- eru 12y agoAnd even if it came to the end of tubes, servicing obsolete hardware (and software) can be very lucrative. Kids don't learn COBOL anymore.
- Animats 12y agoThere's been a lot of progress since then. One IGBT pair. 1200 amps. 4500 volts. 140x190 mm housing: http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-FZ1200R45HL-DS-v03_01-en_de.pdf?folderId=db3a304412b407950112b4095b0601e3&fileId=db3a304345087709014516f875431b4b http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-FZ1200R45HL-DS-v03_01-...
- wtallis 12y agoImpressive, except that the times are listed in units of microseconds, so it's completely irrelevant to microwave use.
- ChuckMcM 12y agoThis story really buries the lede. You can get 250W of radiated RF power out of a transistor! That is pretty neat. Back in college I got to hear how the magnetron would not ever be feasible in a solid state device, the free electron path length was too short. Another impossible thing, now available from Digikey. Also a bit scary as it makes some previously impractical weapons more so (like the MASER). If they are cheap enough (and I suspect they are) they might make a good bird abatement device as well.
- vonmoltke 12y agoA press release[1] indicates the price is $26 - $37 each in 10k lots. [1] http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20141005005052/en/Freescale-Modernizes-Microwave-Oven-Appliance-Industry-Solid-State#.VEgwQXW9-V5 http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20141005005052/en/Free...
- aidenn0 12y agoThat puts the cost at over $100 for a 1kW oven though; seems like it will only be in high-end ovens at first.
- vonmoltke 12y agoBasically what happened with LCD panels and televisions. Once Freescale ramps up and someone else, like Triquint, enters the market the price will come down.
- ridgeguy 12y agoAnd also what happened with magnetrons in microwave ovens. They were so very expensive 6 decades ago. Now I can go to Costco and get a 1kw microwave source for less than $100. It's great for home-brew plasma deposition systems.
- ChuckMcM 12y agoMy samples are on their way, I can't wait. :-)
- myth_buster 12y agoVacuum Tubes are very popular in high fidelity audio spectrum. http://www.head-fi.org/t/655961/pictures-of-your-high-end-system-ii-same-rules-apply http://www.head-fi.org/t/655961/pictures-of-your-high-end-sy...
- donatj 12y agoI have two tube headphone amps on my desk, one of which I just bought new a couple months ago right in front of me, and 3 other people in my office have similar tube amps. Probably not the norm, but still the death of tubes has been greatly exaggerated. edit: photographic evidence: http://jdon.at/15kV9 http://jdon.at/15kV9
- mdellabitta 12y agoAnd tubes in UHF broadcast stations are in no way anachronistic.
- dfox 12y agoBut high-powered analog UHF transmitters themselves starts to be, considering that only major application is analog TV.
- mdellabitta 12y agoIs that true? I was under the impression that ATSC transmitters used tubes as well.
- ska 12y agoThat was the first thing I thought also, but I guess you can't argue that tube amps (for headphones, guitars, whatever) is a pretty niche product these days.
- ArkyBeagle 12y agoThey are not at all hard to find.
- taeric 12y agoNot much is, anymore.
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- georgebonnr 12y agoI think more than a couple of people still buy guitar amps.
- georgebonnr 12y agoI think more than a couple of people still buy guitar amps!
- kazinator 12y agoThese sexy things don't seem to be going away: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluorescent_display http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_fluorescent_display A fluorescent lamp also qualifies as a vacuum tube: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Principles_of_operation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Principles_of_... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Cold_cathode_lamps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp#Cold_cathode_l... "Most fluorescent lamps use electrodes that operate by thermionic emission, meaning they are operated at a high enough temperature for the electrode material (usually aided by a special coating) to emit electrons into the tube by heat." Thermionic emission is how vacuum tubes work, like the 12AX7's and 6L6's or whatnot in your guitar amp.
- sargun 12y agoErm, not to call you out, but using 'sexy' to describe something can be construed as sexist. Source: http://notapattern.net/2014/10/14/ways-men-in-tech-are-unintentionally-sexist/ http://notapattern.net/2014/10/14/ways-men-in-tech-are-unint...
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- alinenache 12y agohttp://waltherpragerandphilosophy1.blogspot.ro/2013/10/turning-on-and-off.html http://waltherpragerandphilosophy1.blogspot.ro/2013/10/turni...
- sam 12y agoDon't forget about the krytron, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krytron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krytron If you need to switch thousands of amps in under a nanosecond you'll probably need one.
- mikestew 12y agoEven within the article under "Related" there's a link to a story titled "Long Live Vacuum Tube Amps" from earlier this year. Perhaps a more accurate title would be "...Last Mass-Market Vacuum Tube Product". Because even just last year I bought a nice little desktop tube guitar amp, and it looks like the Fender Greta is still being sold. (Which I'd recommend if you're looking for a tiny amp to noodle around with and still get crunchy tube goodness.)
- webnrrd2k 12y agoAm I wrong, or is this a press piece for Freescale's new transistor?
- richieb 12y agoThere are plenty guitar amplifiers still made with tubes. Look up Fender Twin for example.
- bitwize 12y agoAre you kidding me? People who are serious about music swear by an all-analog mastering process with tube amps. The even harmonics make for a warmer sound than the harsh odd harmonics of transistors.
- kibibu 12y agoThe only reason you get any harmonics is if you drive them to nonlinear distortion though. If you have enough headroom, you can get near-zero transistor distortion and then apply your tube modelling digitally. Audiophiles are often stuck in the 1970's with this stuff.
- bitwize 12y agoAre you kidding me? People who are serious about music swear by an all-analog mastering process with tube amps. The even harmonics make for a warmer sound than the harsh odd harmonics of transistors.
- allworknoplay 12y agoUm, vacuum tube diodes?
- wtallis 12y agoMy perspective, as someone with some experience with truly high power microwave tubes (multi-MW, not sub-kW): It's great that that a quarter kilowatt can be done in solid state, but it's not a death knell for microwave tubes. 58% efficiency at 2.45GHz and 63% efficiency at 915MHz sound reasonable but aren't a breakthrough, especially for a narrowband application like RF heating. The big savings come from ditching the strong magnets and high voltage power supplies. Size may be a significant improvement, but these devices still need to dissipate more than a third of their power as heat, so it's not as drastic as pictures may imply. Solid-state devices have been gradually encroaching on vacuum tubes for a long time, but vacuum tube tech has been advancing, too. I'm not sure that cathode lifespan is much of a concern anymore at the power levels that solid-state devices can reach. The upper limit of how much power you can get out of a single tube is still growing, as is the efficiency. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit for the design of microwave tubes now that we can actually do a 3d simulation without a supercomputer. Solid-state devices haven't surpassed any of the fundamental limitations on vacuum tube devices except for the entry costs of having a high-temperature high-voltage cathode, a vacuum chamber, and a strong magnetic field.
- rmason 12y agoWhoa it may be the last mass market vacuum tube is going away but that doesn't mean all of them. Hams use linear amplifiers that have tubes in them. Pretty sure the military still uses them as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_amplifier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_amplifier Most vacuum tube production these days is in Eastern Europe and Russia.
- vanderZwan 12y agoI kind of wonder what someone with your background thinks of the following articles: http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2014/06/thermal-efficiency-cooking-stoves.html http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2014/06/thermal-efficiency-co... http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2014/07/cooking-pot-insulation-key-to-sustainable-cooking.html http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2014/07/cooking-pot-insulatio...
- hapless 12y agoAren't vacuum tubes still used in photomultipliers?
- mng2 12y agoA photomultiplier is a special kind of vacuum tube, but it's a pretty niche market. Plus avalanche photodiodes are making inroads.
- pistle 12y agoVirtually every kitchen has a built in microwave? I'm not so sure about that monsieur.
- burnte 12y agoI dunno, I think a microwave with a vacuum tube will make my food sound warmer and trued to the original analog food I remember as a kid.
- lmg643 12y agoTWTs are going to be around for a long time. There are only a handful of companies in the world that make them, and there are no real alternatives to producing high power microwave signals.
- wtallis 12y agoWell, TWTs are just one member of a family of vacuum tubes that can do things solid state devices can't. There are also IOTs, klystrons, and BWOs, and their cousins from the gyrotron side of the family. There's a lot of territory for solid-state devices to conquer before vacuum tubes are obsolete, and solid-state devices can't even operate in most of those regions, let alone outperform vacuum tubes.
- rbc 12y agoConsider the array of new tube combo guitar amps carried by Guitar Center right now: http://www.guitarcenter.com/Tube-Combo-Guitar-Amplifiers-Combo-Guitar-Amplifiers,New-Gear.gc?ipp=25 http://www.guitarcenter.com/Tube-Combo-Guitar-Amplifiers-Com...
- userbinator 12y agoThey often cook unevenly and typically lose power over time as the magnetron filament and cathode deteriorate. At last it is possible to replace the magnetron with solid state devices. My microwave is several decades old now and its magnetron hasn't ever needed replacement, and I haven't noticed any degradation in power level either. I wonder if these new "all-solid-state" ovens will last nearly as long - I've read plenty of reports about the "inverter" types (essentially an HV SMPS) that use many more components which are often operated near their maximum limits and fail sooner, compared to the older design with a simple (but more expensive) large HV transformer.
- wtallis 12y agoMagnetrons are rated for thousands of hours of operating time, and the degradation is gradual. Unless you use your microwave oven to the exclusion of all other heating sources, a 40 year old oven should still be doing alright if it was well built to begin with. It's only industrial uses that have to worry, and even so the amortized cost is tiny. (I've seen an estimate of $1/hour for a 100kW industrial heating magnetron with a rating of 8000 hours, which is quite a bit smaller than the operating cost.)
- jhallenworld 12y agoThere are some very interesting stories in the history of vacuum tubes. One is the 416A planar triode for the Bell Labs TD-2 microwave relay network: http://long-lines.net/tech-equip/index.html http://long-lines.net/tech-equip/index.html (I like especially the story of the terrorist attack on the microwave relay station by the "American Republican Army") Another is John Pierce on Klystrons and TWTs: http://www.smecc.org/john_r__pierce____electron_tubes.htm http://www.smecc.org/john_r__pierce____electron_tubes.htm
- Immortalin 12y agohttp://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/introducing-the-vacuum-transistor-a-device-made-of-nothing http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/introducing-...