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I just turned 36, and I am in a contemplative self battle with this very question for my own career. As far as internal career development goes for my current

I just turned 36, and I am in a contemplative self battle with this very question for my own career. As far as internal career development goes for my current employment, I have "succeeded". I have had a slew of successful projects and have been slowly but surely moving up the chain. It's difficult because in a large firm (20k global employees), moving up means coding less and attending more meetings. This is starting to drive me mad. I know that I can only go so far as an engineer in a large firm, but I don't want to just coalesce into the larger bloat that churns out hours and hours of meetings and powerpoint. On this path, in 5 years, I will be a director of some department and my distance from the code will be far. One way I am coping is by continuing this management ascension and writing code on the side - but when I have kids in the next couple years I probably wont have much time for that. It is a difficult decision to be sure.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
You should work for a tech company (i.e. those companies that solely focus on tech). Most usually have clear career paths for those who want to become senior individual contributors vs. managers, because that is actually very useful.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  I'm skeptical about dual-track organizations (read my other post in this thread, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8481680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8481680 ). I agree that it's a good idea, but they tend to make it astronomically harder to be a Director-equivalent engineer than a Director. Ultimately, the management ladder is easier to scale and therefore "better", insofar as you can be a Director and still code (if you want). I look at it this way. I've been programming for 10 years and, in a typical "do what I'm told" job, I'm not going to learn anything new. Sure, managers only get 10-15 hours of coding time, but that's more than you'll get in useful coding time as a managed employee anyway. As a manager, you can have your underlings explore new technologies and report back, keeping you current on the field, and while you'll only get 10-15 hours of coding time (unless you work 40+) you have a lot more freedom in deciding what you code, and power to get your work noticed. I'd rather have 10 hours per week of quality coding experience than 40 hours in the Java mines maintaining someone's VibratorFactoryVisitorSingleton. Managers are good at complain-bragging and making their track sound more painful than it actually is. The fact is that a manager who keeps his coding skill current is highly valued. Being a manager means you have organizational credibility, and if you want to use that credibility to code because you think it's the right thing for you, then you can. If I were to take a cynical view of dual-track organizations, I'd say that the real purpose is to convince the programmers that the management-ladder people are better than they actually are. A Director-equivalent programmer at Google (Principal Engineer) is an objectively strong engineer, and it's competitive as hell to get to that rank. The Director-level managers at Google aren't any better than middle-management at other companies.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    The tech world is going flat, which has a lot to do with the experiences of your former employer. In this new (but not really that new) model, the hierarchy is flatter, people managers are fewer and have lots of reports, while experienced/skilled individual contributors (ICs) are expected to provide more of the leadership missing from the fewer managers (who are better at providing that anyways). When each manager has 20 reports, you don't need many of them. Even Microsoft is moving this way, and has always focused on a lot of strong ICs; distinguished engineer is a partner level position (I think). I would be quite surprised if the real product direction power wasn't held by the principal engineers at Google. I mean, ya, the managers get to manage, and they provide some leadership, but they have those pesky management tasks and politics (all necessary) getting in the way of that. In that situation, there are also probably plenty of managers who have to manage peers (i.e. people who have equal or even more influence in the company), and the concept of "underling who reports back" is a bit of a stretch!
    - seestheday 12y ago
      Look at how many distinguished engineers, or other very high level individual contributors who have actual real power there are compared to Directors and VP's who manage large groups of people. The individual contributor path is exponentially more difficult to climb. I argue that you both have to win the lottery with the right projects and get in early at a company, and have all of the necessary skills. I believe it is a story that is told to individual contributors by people with real power to keep them motivated. The only theory that I've heard of where a flat org could be actually beneficial to individual contributors is the parents theory on open allocation. Otherwise it's just management kicking out the ladder once they've climbed it.
vacri 12y ago
If you have succeeded, why not stay where you are? Why do you have to move up? "Thanks, but I prefer coding, I'd rather stay where I am".
- chii 12y ago
  > "Thanks, but I prefer coding, I'd rather stay where I am". "...but i want more pay - how about CEO level pay?" "nope."
  - alistairSH 12y ago
    I'm not sure that's a totally valid sentiment. For starters, top-notch developers in the US earn salaries that approach CEO-level pay (ok, maybe not quite, but certainly top-5% salaries nationally). Even as a mid-level developer, my salary matched that of experienced project managers in my wife's previous line of work (large insurance company). And CEOs generally lead a very different lifestyle than a good developer. On call 24/7, lots of travel, etc. And it's a different set of skills that many developers lack (schmoozing, sales, dealing with other giant egos). Compare that to my 40-45/hour work week, true vacation (with no work interruptions), and limited exposure to clients/sales/etc (which I find the most stressful part of my job - minimizing that is a good thing for me).
    - mattfrommars 12y ago
      I did my mechanical engineering and having a pain in finding a job. I'm planning to get into programming. What do I need to do to become a decent developer who is in demand and can earn decent money?
      - eru 12y ago
        It's easiest if you start hanging out with people who can program (and best of all, earn good money programming). There's lots you can learn on your own. Just do some web searches. Pick a language, and start learning. Python is great for a beginners. (I like Haskell, but I'm weird.) There are a bunch of auxiliary skills that help. Learn how to use irc (freenode is great), get familiar with github. Drop me a line, if you need more help. My email address is in my profile.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

You should work for a tech company (i.e. those companies that solely focus on tech). Most usually have clear career paths for those who want to become senior individual contributors vs. managers, because that is actually very useful.

michaelochurch 12y ago
I'm skeptical about dual-track organizations (read my other post in this thread, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8481680 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8481680 ). I agree that it's a good idea, but they tend to make it astronomically harder to be a Director-equivalent engineer than a Director. Ultimately, the management ladder is easier to scale and therefore "better", insofar as you can be a Director and still code (if you want). I look at it this way. I've been programming for 10 years and, in a typical "do what I'm told" job, I'm not going to learn anything new. Sure, managers only get 10-15 hours of coding time, but that's more than you'll get in useful coding time as a managed employee anyway. As a manager, you can have your underlings explore new technologies and report back, keeping you current on the field, and while you'll only get 10-15 hours of coding time (unless you work 40+) you have a lot more freedom in deciding what you code, and power to get your work noticed. I'd rather have 10 hours per week of quality coding experience than 40 hours in the Java mines maintaining someone's VibratorFactoryVisitorSingleton. Managers are good at complain-bragging and making their track sound more painful than it actually is. The fact is that a manager who keeps his coding skill current is highly valued. Being a manager means you have organizational credibility, and if you want to use that credibility to code because you think it's the right thing for you, then you can. If I were to take a cynical view of dual-track organizations, I'd say that the real purpose is to convince the programmers that the management-ladder people are better than they actually are. A Director-equivalent programmer at Google (Principal Engineer) is an objectively strong engineer, and it's competitive as hell to get to that rank. The Director-level managers at Google aren't any better than middle-management at other companies.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  The tech world is going flat, which has a lot to do with the experiences of your former employer. In this new (but not really that new) model, the hierarchy is flatter, people managers are fewer and have lots of reports, while experienced/skilled individual contributors (ICs) are expected to provide more of the leadership missing from the fewer managers (who are better at providing that anyways). When each manager has 20 reports, you don't need many of them. Even Microsoft is moving this way, and has always focused on a lot of strong ICs; distinguished engineer is a partner level position (I think). I would be quite surprised if the real product direction power wasn't held by the principal engineers at Google. I mean, ya, the managers get to manage, and they provide some leadership, but they have those pesky management tasks and politics (all necessary) getting in the way of that. In that situation, there are also probably plenty of managers who have to manage peers (i.e. people who have equal or even more influence in the company), and the concept of "underling who reports back" is a bit of a stretch!
  - seestheday 12y ago
    Look at how many distinguished engineers, or other very high level individual contributors who have actual real power there are compared to Directors and VP's who manage large groups of people. The individual contributor path is exponentially more difficult to climb. I argue that you both have to win the lottery with the right projects and get in early at a company, and have all of the necessary skills. I believe it is a story that is told to individual contributors by people with real power to keep them motivated. The only theory that I've heard of where a flat org could be actually beneficial to individual contributors is the parents theory on open allocation. Otherwise it's just management kicking out the ladder once they've climbed it.

vacri 12y ago

If you have succeeded, why not stay where you are? Why do you have to move up? "Thanks, but I prefer coding, I'd rather stay where I am".

chii 12y ago
> "Thanks, but I prefer coding, I'd rather stay where I am". "...but i want more pay - how about CEO level pay?" "nope."
- alistairSH 12y ago
  I'm not sure that's a totally valid sentiment. For starters, top-notch developers in the US earn salaries that approach CEO-level pay (ok, maybe not quite, but certainly top-5% salaries nationally). Even as a mid-level developer, my salary matched that of experienced project managers in my wife's previous line of work (large insurance company). And CEOs generally lead a very different lifestyle than a good developer. On call 24/7, lots of travel, etc. And it's a different set of skills that many developers lack (schmoozing, sales, dealing with other giant egos). Compare that to my 40-45/hour work week, true vacation (with no work interruptions), and limited exposure to clients/sales/etc (which I find the most stressful part of my job - minimizing that is a good thing for me).
  - mattfrommars 12y ago
    I did my mechanical engineering and having a pain in finding a job. I'm planning to get into programming. What do I need to do to become a decent developer who is in demand and can earn decent money?
    - eru 12y ago
      It's easiest if you start hanging out with people who can program (and best of all, earn good money programming). There's lots you can learn on your own. Just do some web searches. Pick a language, and start learning. Python is great for a beginners. (I like Haskell, but I'm weird.) There are a bunch of auxiliary skills that help. Learn how to use irc (freenode is great), get familiar with github. Drop me a line, if you need more help. My email address is in my profile.