9 ms·

That isn't really something I would brag about, but good for you I guess.

by eli 12y ago

toomuchtodo 12y ago
Debt isn't a moral obligation, and to somehow frame it as such is dubious at best. If you as a debt owner or servicer can't keep your books straight, you have absolutely no business attempting to collect on a debt. If you're taking someone to court or attempting to take their wages, you better be damn sure you're in the right.
- troupe 12y ago
  I believe most people would say that when they agree to take money with a promise to repay it, they are under a moral obligation to do so.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    So when an individual borrows and fails to repay, there is a moral hazard, but when a business declares bankruptcy and restructure, that's smart business? Debt is a contractual issue, not a moral one. As HackerNews entrepreneurs should keep in mind, its the ability to easily shed debt (and not be shackled to those debts for decades) in the US that creates the environment for startups to take the risks they do.
    - jeremyjh 12y ago
      Who is lending money to startups?
      - toomuchtodo 12y ago
        Am I not reading often on HN about long-term agreements startups in SFBA are committing themselves to (specifically real estate/office space leases)? That's a debt, and when a startup burns up, any time left on that lease is a debt left unpaid. Debt is not just VC money in hand.
      - patio11 12y ago
        Anyone who invoices after services are provided instead of before, for one.
    - eli 12y ago
      The moral obligation is to TRY to pay it back. I fully concede that it's not a black and white issue, but there's a big difference between refusing to pay a debt and being unable to pay a debt. If you borrow money for any reason with the understanding that you'll pay it back, but you secretly intend to keep it all along, then you are doing something wrong (morally if not legally).
      - toomuchtodo 12y ago
        > If you borrow money for any reason with the understanding that you'll pay it back, but you secretly intend to keep it all along, then you are doing something wrong (morally if not legally). We are in complete agreement then. To do otherwise would be, in my opinion, fraud.
    - Tloewald 12y ago
      A secured debt is a contractual issue. An unsecured debt is a moral issue.
    - GrinningFool 12y ago
      "Debt is a contractual issue, not a moral one." Keeping one's word is always a moral issue. The bad practices of others (businesses or individuals) do not change the value of my word.
  - jimbokun 12y ago
    I think the issue is assuming the company charging the account are behaving in a moral manner. Changing terms after the fact, dark patterns, charging for things the customer didn't agree to, over billing for cable services in the hope the customer just doesn't notice or gets worn down by trying to fight it. There are a lot of times the corporation is unequivocally in the wrong, but they already billed your card and you have to fight to get it back. Being able to cancel the card first and force the corporation to take you to court and prove their case could help put the consumer on a more level playing field.
  - jellicle 12y ago
    The bible calls for a debt jubilee - forgiveness of all debts - every seven years. No such thing has happened in hundreds of years. So who acting immorally, again?
    - jack-r-abbit 12y ago
      It was every 50 years, not 7. And it also stated that prisoners would be freed. We don't actually do everything the bible says to do... thankfully. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(Christianity) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(Christianity)
      - scarmig 12y ago
        There's some ambiguity in the scriptures. See Deuteromy 15:1-11: "At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD's time for canceling debts has been proclaimed." (http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/passage.aspx?q=deuteronomy+15:1-11 http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/passage.aspx?q=de...) It's interesting to imagine a world where there was no legal recourse to someone not paying back debt: easy to imagine some first-order consequences, harder to see how it'd change the grand scheme of things. I suspect it would end up being a much better world, but I come from a very anti-debt perspective.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        runeks 12y ago
        > It's interesting to imagine a world where there was no legal recourse to someone not paying back debt [...] I think it sounds scary. If I enter into a contract that says I have to do something in exchange for something else, I'd like a court to honor that contract, and not -- somewhat arbitrarily I'd say -- declare debts in the contract invalid after seven years. Imagine no one being able to issue debt with a maturity of more than 7 years. That would be the consequence of such an interference into the market. This means our economy as a whole would become even more sensitive to interest rate volatility, as you can't secure the interest on a loan for more than 7 years at a time.
  - gnaritas 12y ago
    Except that's not what happens, you borrow money with the explicit notion that you might not repay it; that's what sets the interest rate, both sides know that going in. There's nothing at all immoral about choosing to suffer the hit on your credit rather than repay as both options are expected possible outcomes in the original deal.
    - tripzilch 12y ago
      > you borrow money with the explicit notion that you might not repay it; that's what sets the interest rate, both sides know that going in. The interest rate is set by the fact that money-NOW is worth more than money-in-a-few-months-or-years. This is also the case if it's certain you will get the money. I never considered that risk would also be a factor in interest rates. It makes sense, but I really doubt it's a very big factor. Since in most cases debt means you will eventually get the money back, the risk is very little (depending on economic health, I guess). But the "money now vs money then" factor is always present. Can anyone with a little more insight into these matters inform us whether risk of not being paid back actually represents a substantial amount of the interest rate? Cause I doubt it. > There's nothing at all immoral about choosing to suffer the hit on your credit rather than repay as both options are expected possible outcomes in the original deal. Is that how it works in America? Because as an outsider, this sounds very weird to me. Say you have a debt with me, you fail to repay me but instead you opt to "take a hit on your credit score", which is, I presume, some sort of abstract "score" number kept by agreements between cc-corporations, banks and such? (or is it a government thing? probably not) So this credit score determines whether you can get certain loans at banks, interest rates for your credit cards, stuff like that yes? In the mean time there's me. What do I care about your credit score? Do I get to think, "hey I didn't get my money, but at least that guy is going to have a shitty time securing loans from now on and having a stable financial future". How does that help me? You still screwed me over by not paying me back, and the simple fact that, in the process, you also screwed yourself over doesn't help me at all. I'm not the vindictive kind, and some abstract revenge credit score "punishment" you suffer in your standing with other institutions won't get me my money back. See, this doesn't make it moral, at all. The fact that we both know, if you don't pay me back, you'll be screwing yourself over by means of credit score, just means that I might be more likely to believe you that you'd rather pay back your debt than suffer that hit. Meaning less risk for me. But if it turns out that not paying and suffering the hit is in fact a serious alternative option for you (instead of a deterrent), you may as well say "I'll pay you back or I stab myself in the eye"--what do I care? (well in fact I would prefer if you didn't, because in my personal ethical framework, such deals themselves are immoral)
  - otakucode 12y ago
    When lending money, you are under a moral obligation to bear the consequences of the risk you assumed.
- mcherm 12y ago
  In my personal moral code, most debts ARE a moral obligation. Perhaps your moral code is different from mine.
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    If I borrow from a person, I'll bleed to death in the snow to make sure they get paid back. But from a corporation? Their losses are priced into their interest rate. I'll still pay them back of course, but if I lose my job, have no income, I'm not crying over it.
    - chasing 12y ago
      That sounds exactly like my justification for stealing! Businesses usually have insurance to cover losses from theft. (And if they don't, that's on them.) And who's paying for that insurance? Right: Their customers. So it's kind of like: Unless you steal from them, they're stealing from you! Also, I don't like paying for stuff.
      - toomuchtodo 12y ago
        You're entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you'll understand the other side when your small business pops, you've got no income, and you exhaust any savings you have.
        chasing 12y ago
        I agree! Paying for things you've taken from corporations only helps perpetuate the Global Corporate Hegemony. Racking up a bunch of debts and then making excuses about why you aren't obligated to pay them is probably actually more morally correct than paying for the things you take. Unless you take things from people. People are different. Then you should pay for those things by bleeding all over the snow or whatever. (I don't know how money works in your country. In the US we usually just use dollars. There's not much snow right now and having everyone's blood everywhere can lead to public health problems. See also: Ebola.) Anyway. Thank god there are no people at corporations. And thank god all corporations are the size of Walmart and can easily withstand financial losses due to non-payment.

That isn't really something I would brag about, but good for you I guess.

by eli 12y ago

That isn't really something I would brag about, but good for you I guess.

Debt isn't a moral obligation, and to somehow frame it as such is dubious at best. If you as a debt owner or servicer can't keep your books straight, you have absolutely no business attempting to collect on a debt. If you're taking someone to court or attempting to take their wages, you better be damn sure you're in the right.

troupe 12y ago
I believe most people would say that when they agree to take money with a promise to repay it, they are under a moral obligation to do so.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  So when an individual borrows and fails to repay, there is a moral hazard, but when a business declares bankruptcy and restructure, that's smart business? Debt is a contractual issue, not a moral one. As HackerNews entrepreneurs should keep in mind, its the ability to easily shed debt (and not be shackled to those debts for decades) in the US that creates the environment for startups to take the risks they do.
  - jeremyjh 12y ago
    Who is lending money to startups?
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
      Am I not reading often on HN about long-term agreements startups in SFBA are committing themselves to (specifically real estate/office space leases)? That's a debt, and when a startup burns up, any time left on that lease is a debt left unpaid. Debt is not just VC money in hand.
    - patio11 12y ago
      Anyone who invoices after services are provided instead of before, for one.
  - eli 12y ago
    The moral obligation is to TRY to pay it back. I fully concede that it's not a black and white issue, but there's a big difference between refusing to pay a debt and being unable to pay a debt. If you borrow money for any reason with the understanding that you'll pay it back, but you secretly intend to keep it all along, then you are doing something wrong (morally if not legally).
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
      > If you borrow money for any reason with the understanding that you'll pay it back, but you secretly intend to keep it all along, then you are doing something wrong (morally if not legally). We are in complete agreement then. To do otherwise would be, in my opinion, fraud.
  - Tloewald 12y ago
    A secured debt is a contractual issue. An unsecured debt is a moral issue.
  - GrinningFool 12y ago
    "Debt is a contractual issue, not a moral one." Keeping one's word is always a moral issue. The bad practices of others (businesses or individuals) do not change the value of my word.
- jimbokun 12y ago
  I think the issue is assuming the company charging the account are behaving in a moral manner. Changing terms after the fact, dark patterns, charging for things the customer didn't agree to, over billing for cable services in the hope the customer just doesn't notice or gets worn down by trying to fight it. There are a lot of times the corporation is unequivocally in the wrong, but they already billed your card and you have to fight to get it back. Being able to cancel the card first and force the corporation to take you to court and prove their case could help put the consumer on a more level playing field.
- jellicle 12y ago
  The bible calls for a debt jubilee - forgiveness of all debts - every seven years. No such thing has happened in hundreds of years. So who acting immorally, again?
  - jack-r-abbit 12y ago
    It was every 50 years, not 7. And it also stated that prisoners would be freed. We don't actually do everything the bible says to do... thankfully. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(Christianity) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(Christianity)
    - scarmig 12y ago
      There's some ambiguity in the scriptures. See Deuteromy 15:1-11: "At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD's time for canceling debts has been proclaimed." (http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/passage.aspx?q=deuteronomy+15:1-11 http://www.biblestudytools.com/deuteronomy/passage.aspx?q=de...) It's interesting to imagine a world where there was no legal recourse to someone not paying back debt: easy to imagine some first-order consequences, harder to see how it'd change the grand scheme of things. I suspect it would end up being a much better world, but I come from a very anti-debt perspective.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - runeks 12y ago
        > It's interesting to imagine a world where there was no legal recourse to someone not paying back debt [...] I think it sounds scary. If I enter into a contract that says I have to do something in exchange for something else, I'd like a court to honor that contract, and not -- somewhat arbitrarily I'd say -- declare debts in the contract invalid after seven years. Imagine no one being able to issue debt with a maturity of more than 7 years. That would be the consequence of such an interference into the market. This means our economy as a whole would become even more sensitive to interest rate volatility, as you can't secure the interest on a loan for more than 7 years at a time.
- gnaritas 12y ago
  Except that's not what happens, you borrow money with the explicit notion that you might not repay it; that's what sets the interest rate, both sides know that going in. There's nothing at all immoral about choosing to suffer the hit on your credit rather than repay as both options are expected possible outcomes in the original deal.
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    > you borrow money with the explicit notion that you might not repay it; that's what sets the interest rate, both sides know that going in. The interest rate is set by the fact that money-NOW is worth more than money-in-a-few-months-or-years. This is also the case if it's certain you will get the money. I never considered that risk would also be a factor in interest rates. It makes sense, but I really doubt it's a very big factor. Since in most cases debt means you will eventually get the money back, the risk is very little (depending on economic health, I guess). But the "money now vs money then" factor is always present. Can anyone with a little more insight into these matters inform us whether risk of not being paid back actually represents a substantial amount of the interest rate? Cause I doubt it. > There's nothing at all immoral about choosing to suffer the hit on your credit rather than repay as both options are expected possible outcomes in the original deal. Is that how it works in America? Because as an outsider, this sounds very weird to me. Say you have a debt with me, you fail to repay me but instead you opt to "take a hit on your credit score", which is, I presume, some sort of abstract "score" number kept by agreements between cc-corporations, banks and such? (or is it a government thing? probably not) So this credit score determines whether you can get certain loans at banks, interest rates for your credit cards, stuff like that yes? In the mean time there's me. What do I care about your credit score? Do I get to think, "hey I didn't get my money, but at least that guy is going to have a shitty time securing loans from now on and having a stable financial future". How does that help me? You still screwed me over by not paying me back, and the simple fact that, in the process, you also screwed yourself over doesn't help me at all. I'm not the vindictive kind, and some abstract revenge credit score "punishment" you suffer in your standing with other institutions won't get me my money back. See, this doesn't make it moral, at all. The fact that we both know, if you don't pay me back, you'll be screwing yourself over by means of credit score, just means that I might be more likely to believe you that you'd rather pay back your debt than suffer that hit. Meaning less risk for me. But if it turns out that not paying and suffering the hit is in fact a serious alternative option for you (instead of a deterrent), you may as well say "I'll pay you back or I stab myself in the eye"--what do I care? (well in fact I would prefer if you didn't, because in my personal ethical framework, such deals themselves are immoral)
- otakucode 12y ago
  When lending money, you are under a moral obligation to bear the consequences of the risk you assumed.
mcherm 12y ago
In my personal moral code, most debts ARE a moral obligation. Perhaps your moral code is different from mine.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  If I borrow from a person, I'll bleed to death in the snow to make sure they get paid back. But from a corporation? Their losses are priced into their interest rate. I'll still pay them back of course, but if I lose my job, have no income, I'm not crying over it.
  - chasing 12y ago
    That sounds exactly like my justification for stealing! Businesses usually have insurance to cover losses from theft. (And if they don't, that's on them.) And who's paying for that insurance? Right: Their customers. So it's kind of like: Unless you steal from them, they're stealing from you! Also, I don't like paying for stuff.
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
      You're entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you'll understand the other side when your small business pops, you've got no income, and you exhaust any savings you have.
      - chasing 12y ago
        I agree! Paying for things you've taken from corporations only helps perpetuate the Global Corporate Hegemony. Racking up a bunch of debts and then making excuses about why you aren't obligated to pay them is probably actually more morally correct than paying for the things you take. Unless you take things from people. People are different. Then you should pay for those things by bleeding all over the snow or whatever. (I don't know how money works in your country. In the US we usually just use dollars. There's not much snow right now and having everyone's blood everywhere can lead to public health problems. See also: Ebola.) Anyway. Thank god there are no people at corporations. And thank god all corporations are the size of Walmart and can easily withstand financial losses due to non-payment.