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Umm. It was pretty clearly not done for vindictive reasons. The guy lied about why he was let go and put Reddit in the awkward position of either saying nothin

by arram 12y ago

Umm. It was pretty clearly not done for vindictive reasons. The guy lied about why he was let go and put Reddit in the awkward position of either saying nothing and letting people believe they're a shitty workplace that fires people for disagreeing with management, or telling the truth about why the guy was fired (not laid off.) Frankly, he brought this on himself by forcing Reddit into choosing between two sucky options.

sgift 12y ago
That's one interpretation - alternative: He said the truth, Reddit tries to get out of a bad spot and throws dirt against an ex-employee.
- greenyoda 12y ago
  Except if the CEO knowingly made a false and damaging statement about an employee in public, he could be sued for libel. It's unlikely that a CEO would be stupid enough to do that.
  - api 12y ago
    It took a public outcry for Reddit to ban kiddie porn. This is not a site with a history of caring much about such concerns.
  - smileysteve 12y ago
    The statement by the CEO seems 'stupid enough' already. It has qualifiers that could make this a wrongful termination, defamation, or other lawsuit. If it's performance related, that's all that you should state. Defining and qualifying "much" is difficult. It's probably not best to tell the public that inappropriate interview questions have been being asked ~for a while~. This response stinks of a small company that could have definitely benefited from using a PR statement instead of a posting from the CEO.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- arram 12y ago
  Unlikely. There's a clear distinction between being fired and being laid off and so the disagreement is about a matter of fact, not opinion. More likely the guy started an AMA without thinking it through, then lied to save face when someone asked why he was let go.
NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
This isn't my own insight (borrowed from a coworker), but he points out that Reddit is doing another round of funding and here this schmuck is implying that they're careless with revenue/profits... that could raise a big stink anywhere.
TheOsiris 12y ago
this is not how I read it at all. This seems very vindictive to me. The employee's comment was not as bad as the response from the CEO. He was just guessing as to why he was laid off. For the CEO to jump in and respond himself shows a very thin skin. Also, the tone of the response is a little too angry. This could've have been handled by the employee's direct manager, not the CEO.
- opendais 12y ago
  Replying to public statements about yourself or your company isn't "vindictive". Things like this have a real business impact. I've cancelled interviewing at companies based on conversations with former employees that the company didn't have a satisfactory answer for. If I saw this in a public forum and Reddit failed to point out that the former employee was fired (and was aware he was fired) in a public setting (which would make them liable for being sued, if Reddit lied) holds alot more weight than "Oh, ya, that guy. He was full of shit" told to me privately would.
  - slantedview 12y ago
    "public, false statements" What false statement?
  - TheOsiris 12y ago
    sure, but did the CEO have to do it? And if the CEO was to respond, shouldn't "not true, you were fired" be enough? No need to call him incompetent and lazy (even if he is). That's the part that rubbed me the wrong way, especially since the guy didn't actually trash reddit as bad as they did to him.
    - trevorcreech 12y ago
      If you read the rest of the thread, he was doing a fair bit of trashing the company, management, etc
      - TheOsiris 12y ago
blazespin 12y ago
He said he had a theory. You need to look up the word "Theory" in a dictionary. He did not say he had proof.
- tekromancr 12y ago
  Theory, n. a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.
- xamolxix 12y ago
  I think you are referring to philosophical theories. In science a theory can be a "fact". Ex: Theory of general and theory of special relativity, Theory of evolution by natural selection, Quantum theory, etc. Theoretically (excuse the pun) they could all be disproved some day but most people know they will not be. To cite wikipedia for lack of a better source: "Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge, in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better characterized by the word 'hypothesis'" [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
TrainedMonkey 12y ago
I agree with you that it was done for not vindictive reasons, but I think it could have been handled better. Consider following response: instead of airing everything immediately, instead a statement is made that reddit takes all the feedback seriously and firing had nothing to do with that. Make a specific point that if an employee wants full accounting of all the reasoning, he can respond to that statement and full reasoning will be explained. This way former employee clearly soliciting for feedback and reddit has extremely solid moral ground. TL:DR While employee definitely had this coming, I think that reddit should have held onto higher moral ground and settled for milder action then the one was taken. I do not know full context, as I only read two posts, but official reddit reply does leave a bit of snide and petty aftertaste.
kazinator 12y ago
Fallacy of the excluded middle: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fallacy_of_the_excluded_middle&redirect=no http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fallacy_of_the_exc... The choice is not between saying nothing, and completely devastating that person. Surely there is a third (or even fourth, fifth) alternative. Also, saying nothing doesn't lead to the belief it is a shitty workplace. Just because someone posting in a forum that he's been fired from Company X for a reason he doesn't understand, that doesn't automatically mean that Company X is wrong and shitty; not everyone jumps to this conclusion, and certainly not based on the absence of any response from Company X.
- ugk 12y ago
  Sure it would be nice to have other options, but the reality of social media and group-think means they could really only say nothing or say everything. I don't like it, but to deny that is a dangerous gamble for any company.
  - peterwwillis 12y ago
    Uh, no. Social psychology is a complicated subject and there is no way to distill 'social media and group-think' into a single set of choices for all situations. Most companies say nothing, but if they do say something, it certainly isn't a good idea to seem vindictive when you do so, and is an especially bad idea to do it on a public forum. Luckily they know their audience well and being a jackass is applauded, so their position wins - as long as he can't convince people their response isn't genuine. Group dynamics and public opinion can get as complex as chess.
- moogleii 12y ago
  Not everyone does, but many do. Also, if he had left it at, "I don't understand why" then he would have successfully maintained the fog of possibilities and both parties could continue playing the vague game. Instead he posited a theory about management disliking his charity ideas. Though the CEO's response was a bit much.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  True in theory, but in practice, even HN is full of comments like "Google is evil because [link to a random unfounded speculation/whining of ex-Googler]" and people believe them uncritically.
krigi 12y ago
It may have not been done for vindictive reasons, but it was definitely done for the wrong reason. This shows a clear lack of leadership abilities on the part of Yishan. I know people love a Jobsian dick in charge of tech companies (I use that loosely with reddit; they're an entertainment company), but that era is over. Show some professionalism even if someone is unprofessional toward you and your company.
- differentView 12y ago
  What should Yishan have said?
  - dreamweapon 12y ago
    The best thing to have said? Really, nothing at all. There was no reason that anyone in the company needed to chime in and acknowledge (let alone contradict) what this guy was saying.
  - austinl 12y ago
    In the spirit of non-disparagement, it seems like Yishan could have sent a private message to the employee which reiterated why he had been fired, and asked him to stop posting about it. If Yishan felt that it was necessary to comment, he could have still posted something without Reddit losing face – something like, "We're sorry that you feel our decision to let you go was unclear. I've sent you a private message, and would be happy to go over things again with you personally."
    - TeMPOraL 12y ago
      If he did that, this whole thread would be about how Reddit CEO is a weasel PR-drone incapable of honest talk. Damned if you do, damned if you don't; people here are going to accuse him anyway, because it fits the David vs. Goliath narrative.
      - ameister14 12y ago
        I don't think so; if he did that there would be no thread. "Former Reddit worker does an AMA; CEO talks to him privately about why he was let go" is not nearly as catchy.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

by arram 12y ago

sgift 12y ago

That's one interpretation - alternative: He said the truth, Reddit tries to get out of a bad spot and throws dirt against an ex-employee.

greenyoda 12y ago
Except if the CEO knowingly made a false and damaging statement about an employee in public, he could be sued for libel. It's unlikely that a CEO would be stupid enough to do that.
- api 12y ago
  It took a public outcry for Reddit to ban kiddie porn. This is not a site with a history of caring much about such concerns.
- smileysteve 12y ago
  The statement by the CEO seems 'stupid enough' already. It has qualifiers that could make this a wrongful termination, defamation, or other lawsuit. If it's performance related, that's all that you should state. Defining and qualifying "much" is difficult. It's probably not best to tell the public that inappropriate interview questions have been being asked ~for a while~. This response stinks of a small company that could have definitely benefited from using a PR statement instead of a posting from the CEO.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
arram 12y ago
Unlikely. There's a clear distinction between being fired and being laid off and so the disagreement is about a matter of fact, not opinion. More likely the guy started an AMA without thinking it through, then lied to save face when someone asked why he was let go.

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago

This isn't my own insight (borrowed from a coworker), but he points out that Reddit is doing another round of funding and here this schmuck is implying that they're careless with revenue/profits... that could raise a big stink anywhere.

TheOsiris 12y ago

this is not how I read it at all. This seems very vindictive to me. The employee's comment was not as bad as the response from the CEO. He was just guessing as to why he was laid off. For the CEO to jump in and respond himself shows a very thin skin. Also, the tone of the response is a little too angry. This could've have been handled by the employee's direct manager, not the CEO.

opendais 12y ago
Replying to public statements about yourself or your company isn't "vindictive". Things like this have a real business impact. I've cancelled interviewing at companies based on conversations with former employees that the company didn't have a satisfactory answer for. If I saw this in a public forum and Reddit failed to point out that the former employee was fired (and was aware he was fired) in a public setting (which would make them liable for being sued, if Reddit lied) holds alot more weight than "Oh, ya, that guy. He was full of shit" told to me privately would.
- slantedview 12y ago
  "public, false statements" What false statement?
- TheOsiris 12y ago
  sure, but did the CEO have to do it? And if the CEO was to respond, shouldn't "not true, you were fired" be enough? No need to call him incompetent and lazy (even if he is). That's the part that rubbed me the wrong way, especially since the guy didn't actually trash reddit as bad as they did to him.
  - trevorcreech 12y ago
    If you read the rest of the thread, he was doing a fair bit of trashing the company, management, etc
    - TheOsiris 12y ago

blazespin 12y ago

He said he had a theory. You need to look up the word "Theory" in a dictionary. He did not say he had proof.

tekromancr 12y ago
Theory, n. a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.
xamolxix 12y ago
I think you are referring to philosophical theories. In science a theory can be a "fact". Ex: Theory of general and theory of special relativity, Theory of evolution by natural selection, Quantum theory, etc. Theoretically (excuse the pun) they could all be disproved some day but most people know they will not be. To cite wikipedia for lack of a better source: "Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge, in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better characterized by the word 'hypothesis'" [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

TrainedMonkey 12y ago

I agree with you that it was done for not vindictive reasons, but I think it could have been handled better. Consider following response: instead of airing everything immediately, instead a statement is made that reddit takes all the feedback seriously and firing had nothing to do with that. Make a specific point that if an employee wants full accounting of all the reasoning, he can respond to that statement and full reasoning will be explained. This way former employee clearly soliciting for feedback and reddit has extremely solid moral ground. TL:DR While employee definitely had this coming, I think that reddit should have held onto higher moral ground and settled for milder action then the one was taken. I do not know full context, as I only read two posts, but official reddit reply does leave a bit of snide and petty aftertaste.

kazinator 12y ago

Fallacy of the excluded middle: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fallacy_of_the_excluded_middle&redirect=no http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fallacy_of_the_exc... The choice is not between saying nothing, and completely devastating that person. Surely there is a third (or even fourth, fifth) alternative. Also, saying nothing doesn't lead to the belief it is a shitty workplace. Just because someone posting in a forum that he's been fired from Company X for a reason he doesn't understand, that doesn't automatically mean that Company X is wrong and shitty; not everyone jumps to this conclusion, and certainly not based on the absence of any response from Company X.

ugk 12y ago
Sure it would be nice to have other options, but the reality of social media and group-think means they could really only say nothing or say everything. I don't like it, but to deny that is a dangerous gamble for any company.
- peterwwillis 12y ago
  Uh, no. Social psychology is a complicated subject and there is no way to distill 'social media and group-think' into a single set of choices for all situations. Most companies say nothing, but if they do say something, it certainly isn't a good idea to seem vindictive when you do so, and is an especially bad idea to do it on a public forum. Luckily they know their audience well and being a jackass is applauded, so their position wins - as long as he can't convince people their response isn't genuine. Group dynamics and public opinion can get as complex as chess.
moogleii 12y ago
Not everyone does, but many do. Also, if he had left it at, "I don't understand why" then he would have successfully maintained the fog of possibilities and both parties could continue playing the vague game. Instead he posited a theory about management disliking his charity ideas. Though the CEO's response was a bit much.
TeMPOraL 12y ago
True in theory, but in practice, even HN is full of comments like "Google is evil because [link to a random unfounded speculation/whining of ex-Googler]" and people believe them uncritically.

krigi 12y ago

It may have not been done for vindictive reasons, but it was definitely done for the wrong reason. This shows a clear lack of leadership abilities on the part of Yishan. I know people love a Jobsian dick in charge of tech companies (I use that loosely with reddit; they're an entertainment company), but that era is over. Show some professionalism even if someone is unprofessional toward you and your company.

differentView 12y ago
What should Yishan have said?
- dreamweapon 12y ago
  The best thing to have said? Really, nothing at all. There was no reason that anyone in the company needed to chime in and acknowledge (let alone contradict) what this guy was saying.
- austinl 12y ago
  In the spirit of non-disparagement, it seems like Yishan could have sent a private message to the employee which reiterated why he had been fired, and asked him to stop posting about it. If Yishan felt that it was necessary to comment, he could have still posted something without Reddit losing face – something like, "We're sorry that you feel our decision to let you go was unclear. I've sent you a private message, and would be happy to go over things again with you personally."
  - TeMPOraL 12y ago
    If he did that, this whole thread would be about how Reddit CEO is a weasel PR-drone incapable of honest talk. Damned if you do, damned if you don't; people here are going to accuse him anyway, because it fits the David vs. Goliath narrative.
    - ameister14 12y ago
      I don't think so; if he did that there would be no thread. "Former Reddit worker does an AMA; CEO talks to him privately about why he was let go" is not nearly as catchy.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]