6 ms·

This may be slightly off-topic, but it's also important. 911 is not there to help you. You need to know how to help yourself. My story - Interstate 880 in the

This may be slightly off-topic, but it's also important. 911 is not there to help you. You need to know how to help yourself. My story - Interstate 880 in the East Bay, Fremont, CA. Not a desolate stretch of highway, not in the middle of nowhere (I mean, Fremont sucks but...) I saw an SUV swerve and then roll in front of me on the highway. Took out 2 other cars as well. Slid on its roof about 50 feet then stopped. Gasoline, debris, and fruit (it was carrying fruit?) strewn about the Freeway. Tons of people pull over. Insanity. The car is still running, and gas is pouring out of the SUV. A bystander and myself get the passengers out. They're unconscious. I recognize the danger of moving them, but the fire danger was very real. Anyway, long story short -- guy goes into shock. Pisses himself, won't respond. 15 people had called 911. Elapsed time? 20 minutes. Still not a single local PD, Firetruck, or CHP officer. The first officer was DRIVING BY on the freeway and didn't know the accident had even happened. Imagine that was your wife, your son, your partner, your family. We had a nurse stop and give care. We also had a contractor who had a box of flares stop and close lanes for us. This was all citizens doing work. Shortly after this incident, I bought a handgun. Because I knew when seconds count, the police/fire/emt are MINUTES away. (I also took medical course)

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Animats 12y ago
"The car is still running, and gas is pouring out of the SUV." ... "I bought a handgun." A fire extinguisher and a first aid kit in your car might be more useful.
- moggflunkies 12y ago
  You think it's wise to combat a SUV's worth of fuel with a fire extinguisher that fits in your car, on the side of the road? You think that a first aid kit was going to do anything more than what you could do with your bare hands or a t-shirt for an unconscious, self-pissing trauma victim? Hopefully as you age and move out of your sheltered life experiences you can realize that trolling gets old after awhile.
- staunch 12y ago
  Here's the actual idea in context, not intentionally misconstrued into a strawman. "15 people had called 911. Elapsed time? 20 minutes." ... "Shortly after this incident, I bought a handgun. Because I knew when seconds count, the police/fire/emt are MINUTES away"
- beachstartup 12y ago
  you can bet op also has those in his car now. the handgun is kept at home, because even when you're in your own house, you can't count on the police being there soon enough. you just can't, because they are human beings in automobiles, incapable of teleportation and omniscience.
- rgrieselhuber 12y ago
  It's obvious that the incident caused him to think about other types of emergencies, including violent assault, to which emergency teams would not be able to quickly respond. But yes, a fire extinguisher and first aid kit would also be a good idea.
- gsnedders 12y ago
  It's worthwhile to note that in many places you are legally obliged to have both in your car.
  - gcb0 12y ago
    most us states are not those places.
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staunch 12y ago
I had to call 911 a few months ago when I intervened in a guy robbing some tourists in downtown LA. LAPD showed up, guns drawn, in 3 minutes flat. I would have only been dead for about 2 minutes and 30 seconds if the guy had shot or stabbed me.
- cortesoft 12y ago
  I don't know how you can expect police to get there faster; there is a limited number of police, they can't be within 500 feet of every single spot in a city. Hell, even if they are 100 feet away, they can't stop a guy from shooting you (which takes what, half a second?) It just isn't practical to expect that kind of help at that kind of speed.
  - beachstartup 12y ago
    yeah, that's exactly the point. which is why people should understand that ultimately they are responsible for their own safety, implemented in whatever way they deem fit (and is legal).
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- elorant 12y ago
  If there was a real threat of ending up dead perhaps you shouldn’t have intervened in the first place. Once you called the police you should step aside and wait for them to arrive and do their job. They’re trained for that shit, you’re not. And by the way, 3 minutes response time sounds like an awful short. You know there are other emergencies happening at any single moment.
  - staunch 12y ago
    Stopping on the freeway to drag people out of their overturned cars is also incredibly dangerous. Should he have sat there for 20 minutes waiting for the fire department? They're trained for that, he's not. I wasn't looking for trouble. I actively avoid danger. I stumbled across a scene where I was 10 feet away from a guy violently assaulting some very terrified and very gentle people. It looked like a bear mauling children. I didn't weigh the options beforehand I just responded to the situation, by getting the bear's attention. I am obviously not blaming the police for arriving in "3 minutes flat". That's about as fast as is possible. I was trying to illustrate a real-world example of how things play out even under ideal circumstances.
scott_karana 12y ago
Is the buying of the handgun just embellishment? I thought that concealed carry was essentially illegal in California for private citizens, which is what it sounded like you were buying it for...
- beachstartup 12y ago
  CA concealed carry varies from county to county. it is legal in a large % of the state. generally it only takes one incident involving the police (or lack thereof) for someone to buy a gun or take other measures for their own personal safety. for me it involved an assault on the streets not a mile from my own home that basically ended with the police not giving a shit about me or my situation. in reality, you are on your own. the police don't care about you. this is really, really tough for some people to swallow.
  - msandford 12y ago
    It's not just "in reality", it's codified into law: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=... Or here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia It's tough for people to swallow because they've been subtly led to think that the police do have an obligation ala "To Protect and to Serve" like the L.A.P.D. OFFICIAL motto. http://www.lapdonline.org/history_of_the_lapd/content_basic_view/1128 http://www.lapdonline.org/history_of_the_lapd/content_basic_... But it turns out that like corporate-customer-service-speak "How can I help you? You want to cancel? I'm sorry I can't do that it's against policy". Now why is it that way? People in government and the police are worried that you could end up in a situation where the police are held accountable for literally every thing that doesn't go exactly perfect. Even when the reasons it went wrong were out of their control. But I suspect that the balance has been shifted a bit too far towards giving the police the benefit of the doubt, at least re: people's expectations.
- hga 12y ago
  California (and Hawaii) are facing a Federal court decision that has a good chance of ending its per county "may issue" concealed carry regime. In the meantime, it won't hurt to buy weapons and become familiar with them. They'll be available at home, and unless California gun laws are like New Jersey's and a few other states, there's probably some way to legally carry one in your car with some ammo, even if it's not easily or quickly accessible and functional. It still might do you good, although for that use case a rifle is likely to better.
JshWright 12y ago
The fact that you _weren't_ in the middle of nowhere likely contributed to the delay. In densely populate areas, served by multiple PSAPs, it's not uncommon for cell phones to connect to the 'wrong' PSAP, since it's based on where the tower is located, not where the phone is. I'm a firefighter/paramedic. Our district is on the edge of the county (PSAPs in this area are county-wide). It's not uncommon for a caller in our district to get connected to the 911 center in the neighboring county, if their phone happens to grab a tower there. This adds several minutes to the response time, as the call has to get transferred (which seems to be about as reliable as transferring calls in any generic call center...). While I would never discourage someone from improving their ability to help themselves in an emergency, I think it's a stretch to say "911 is not there to help you." I'm sure the countless folks helped every day by a 911 response would disagree with you. The truth is, there are _extremely_ few situations where a few minutes are going to make the difference between life and death. If someone is going to die within the next few minutes, they are probably going to die no matter who shows up... I would absolutely recommend everyone take a CPR class every few years. It will cover the few situations where you really can make a difference by taking action right away (opening an airway, performing chest compressions, etc).
- rgrieselhuber 12y ago
  This adds a lot of necessary balance to the discussion. That being said, I can show you literally dozens if not hundreds of situations where a few minutes (actually seconds) made all the difference between life and death.
  - JshWright 12y ago
    Absolutely. That's still a very small fraction of 911 encounters. It's also probably more true for law enforcement calls. In the case of EMS calls, really the only things that need to happen Right Now™ are basic airway maneuvers (positioning, Heimlich, etc), CPR, and defibrillation. If you can do those things (all of which are taught in a CPR class), you've got 90% of the EMS related 'seconds matter' scenarios covered.
    - 12y ago
ZanyProgrammer 12y ago
Something to keep in mind is that Fremont is extremely spread out (source: I live there). In thick traffic it could take a while to respond.

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[deleted]

Animats 12y ago

"The car is still running, and gas is pouring out of the SUV." ... "I bought a handgun." A fire extinguisher and a first aid kit in your car might be more useful.

moggflunkies 12y ago
You think it's wise to combat a SUV's worth of fuel with a fire extinguisher that fits in your car, on the side of the road? You think that a first aid kit was going to do anything more than what you could do with your bare hands or a t-shirt for an unconscious, self-pissing trauma victim? Hopefully as you age and move out of your sheltered life experiences you can realize that trolling gets old after awhile.
staunch 12y ago
Here's the actual idea in context, not intentionally misconstrued into a strawman. "15 people had called 911. Elapsed time? 20 minutes." ... "Shortly after this incident, I bought a handgun. Because I knew when seconds count, the police/fire/emt are MINUTES away"
beachstartup 12y ago
you can bet op also has those in his car now. the handgun is kept at home, because even when you're in your own house, you can't count on the police being there soon enough. you just can't, because they are human beings in automobiles, incapable of teleportation and omniscience.
rgrieselhuber 12y ago
It's obvious that the incident caused him to think about other types of emergencies, including violent assault, to which emergency teams would not be able to quickly respond. But yes, a fire extinguisher and first aid kit would also be a good idea.
gsnedders 12y ago
It's worthwhile to note that in many places you are legally obliged to have both in your car.
- gcb0 12y ago
  most us states are not those places.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

staunch 12y ago

I had to call 911 a few months ago when I intervened in a guy robbing some tourists in downtown LA. LAPD showed up, guns drawn, in 3 minutes flat. I would have only been dead for about 2 minutes and 30 seconds if the guy had shot or stabbed me.

cortesoft 12y ago
I don't know how you can expect police to get there faster; there is a limited number of police, they can't be within 500 feet of every single spot in a city. Hell, even if they are 100 feet away, they can't stop a guy from shooting you (which takes what, half a second?) It just isn't practical to expect that kind of help at that kind of speed.
- beachstartup 12y ago
  yeah, that's exactly the point. which is why people should understand that ultimately they are responsible for their own safety, implemented in whatever way they deem fit (and is legal).
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
elorant 12y ago
If there was a real threat of ending up dead perhaps you shouldn’t have intervened in the first place. Once you called the police you should step aside and wait for them to arrive and do their job. They’re trained for that shit, you’re not. And by the way, 3 minutes response time sounds like an awful short. You know there are other emergencies happening at any single moment.
- staunch 12y ago
  Stopping on the freeway to drag people out of their overturned cars is also incredibly dangerous. Should he have sat there for 20 minutes waiting for the fire department? They're trained for that, he's not. I wasn't looking for trouble. I actively avoid danger. I stumbled across a scene where I was 10 feet away from a guy violently assaulting some very terrified and very gentle people. It looked like a bear mauling children. I didn't weigh the options beforehand I just responded to the situation, by getting the bear's attention. I am obviously not blaming the police for arriving in "3 minutes flat". That's about as fast as is possible. I was trying to illustrate a real-world example of how things play out even under ideal circumstances.

scott_karana 12y ago

Is the buying of the handgun just embellishment? I thought that concealed carry was essentially illegal in California for private citizens, which is what it sounded like you were buying it for...

beachstartup 12y ago
CA concealed carry varies from county to county. it is legal in a large % of the state. generally it only takes one incident involving the police (or lack thereof) for someone to buy a gun or take other measures for their own personal safety. for me it involved an assault on the streets not a mile from my own home that basically ended with the police not giving a shit about me or my situation. in reality, you are on your own. the police don't care about you. this is really, really tough for some people to swallow.
- msandford 12y ago
  It's not just "in reality", it's codified into law: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=... Or here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia It's tough for people to swallow because they've been subtly led to think that the police do have an obligation ala "To Protect and to Serve" like the L.A.P.D. OFFICIAL motto. http://www.lapdonline.org/history_of_the_lapd/content_basic_view/1128 http://www.lapdonline.org/history_of_the_lapd/content_basic_... But it turns out that like corporate-customer-service-speak "How can I help you? You want to cancel? I'm sorry I can't do that it's against policy". Now why is it that way? People in government and the police are worried that you could end up in a situation where the police are held accountable for literally every thing that doesn't go exactly perfect. Even when the reasons it went wrong were out of their control. But I suspect that the balance has been shifted a bit too far towards giving the police the benefit of the doubt, at least re: people's expectations.
hga 12y ago
California (and Hawaii) are facing a Federal court decision that has a good chance of ending its per county "may issue" concealed carry regime. In the meantime, it won't hurt to buy weapons and become familiar with them. They'll be available at home, and unless California gun laws are like New Jersey's and a few other states, there's probably some way to legally carry one in your car with some ammo, even if it's not easily or quickly accessible and functional. It still might do you good, although for that use case a rifle is likely to better.

JshWright 12y ago

The fact that you _weren't_ in the middle of nowhere likely contributed to the delay. In densely populate areas, served by multiple PSAPs, it's not uncommon for cell phones to connect to the 'wrong' PSAP, since it's based on where the tower is located, not where the phone is. I'm a firefighter/paramedic. Our district is on the edge of the county (PSAPs in this area are county-wide). It's not uncommon for a caller in our district to get connected to the 911 center in the neighboring county, if their phone happens to grab a tower there. This adds several minutes to the response time, as the call has to get transferred (which seems to be about as reliable as transferring calls in any generic call center...). While I would never discourage someone from improving their ability to help themselves in an emergency, I think it's a stretch to say "911 is not there to help you." I'm sure the countless folks helped every day by a 911 response would disagree with you. The truth is, there are _extremely_ few situations where a few minutes are going to make the difference between life and death. If someone is going to die within the next few minutes, they are probably going to die no matter who shows up... I would absolutely recommend everyone take a CPR class every few years. It will cover the few situations where you really can make a difference by taking action right away (opening an airway, performing chest compressions, etc).

rgrieselhuber 12y ago
This adds a lot of necessary balance to the discussion. That being said, I can show you literally dozens if not hundreds of situations where a few minutes (actually seconds) made all the difference between life and death.
- JshWright 12y ago
  Absolutely. That's still a very small fraction of 911 encounters. It's also probably more true for law enforcement calls. In the case of EMS calls, really the only things that need to happen Right Now™ are basic airway maneuvers (positioning, Heimlich, etc), CPR, and defibrillation. If you can do those things (all of which are taught in a CPR class), you've got 90% of the EMS related 'seconds matter' scenarios covered.
  - 12y ago

ZanyProgrammer 12y ago

Something to keep in mind is that Fremont is extremely spread out (source: I live there). In thick traffic it could take a while to respond.