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What It's Like to Build a Startup in Gaza

142 points by nreece 12y ago

bakareika 12y ago
What bothers me is that Hamas (and jihad-driven islamists in general) are seemingly a minority, even in Gaza. Why don't you build a reservation for them or something? There are many parties who are interested in re-igniting the conflict, for example those who sell weaponry. Clearly neither Israelis nor Gazans (talking about general population, like 99.9% of the people) are enjoying the moment. (I personally wrote many loc in a shelter, to a soundtrack of sirens and explosions — islamists' rockets aren't even targeted at something specific, they just continuously bomb more populated areas in Israel, major cities.)
- IkmoIkmo 12y ago
  Why don't you build a reservation for them or something? Seems to me all of Gaza is a reservation, as are the bantustans in the West Bank... I really don't mean to incite any political conversation here. I enjoy it, but I don't think HN is the right platform for any meaningful discussion, unless it's targeted to be. But this thread is about startups in harsh conditions.
616c 12y ago
I am sure that this article will turn into a political flamewar nightmare, but I really appreciate these kids trying. I live in much better circumstances and I am not sure I could stick my neck. By comparison, my reasons seem silly. I know some Gazans like elsewhere in the Arab world, but I have never asked them what internet connectivity is like in the Strip. Things are so bad with infrastructure stability, I could not believe they had functioning internet during routine bombardment and military operations, especially enough for startups. Very interesting article, but I have one pet peeve. The word is halas, it is routinely translated khalas or 5alas (from خلاص). I have studied Arabic now approaching ten years, and I have never seen this mistake before. What is funny is that, when mocking expats and foreigners trying to integrate culturally and linguistically in Arab cities (I was a target of this of course), this is like always the first word (then maashi, ok, then in shaa allah, God willing) every expat who spends time in the MENA region sprinkles into their speech. Almost always is it used in the incorrect context, with moronically extreme overuse. The journalist could have easily Googled this: halas tells you nothing on Google, while the first result for me for khalas is Yahoo Answers, where someone asks how to use that word.
- Jun8 12y ago
  Interesting point about khalas. Romanization of "ha" is problematic, "kh" is often used as you state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%B8%AA%C4%81%CA%BE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%B8%AA%C4%81%CA%BE). But for speakers who don't normally use this sound, e.g. English, this can lead to mispronunciation, where it is replaced by a "k" using backformation based on this transliteration. For example khan is usually pronounced as kahn in the US (as in "The Wrath of ..." or for a more recent one: Khaleesi) which is quite off. In this case using "h" would have been better perhaps. As the Wikipedia page mentions some IE languages also have this sound, but in this case it is generally transliterated as "ch", not "kh", e.g. Loch Ness, which adds to the confusion.
deleted 12y ago
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cyphunk 12y ago
"Initiated by a Hamas attack on Israel" Narrow interpretations like these show either an ignorance of events or arrogant bias, and are not that hard to avoid as a writer if you actually try.
- jsz- 12y ago
  Technically, the recent conflict was in fact, initiated by Hamas.
  - Myrmornis 12y ago
    Wow, I wish I had you around all the time so I could ask you how things technically are, in fact.
    - jsz- 12y ago
      A very helpful and contributing reply. @cyphunk claimed that Hamas did not start the recent conflict and accused Wired for 'narrow interpretation'. According to the FACTS, the recent round of violence in the Gaza strip was triggered by Hamas. I don't understand.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - cyphunk 12y ago
        There was and is still no proof that Hamas was responsible for the kidnapping of the two Israeli's teenagers. Netanyahu was quick to blame Hamas in a manner similar to Bush blaming Iraq for some tacit role in 9/11. Shortly after the event started an Israel spokesperson admitted in private that there was no evidence that Hamas leadership ordered or had any knowledge of the abduction [1][2]. Anti-arab (hateful and extremely disgusting) riots broke out in parts of Israel after the abduction which resulted in an Arab teenager being killed. From this point Hamas started launching rockets and Israel responded with bombing. It is my opinion that all of the parties were complicit in the escalation. It is also my opinion that Israel alone is guilty of heinous war crimes. But I had another point with my comment: The content of the article did not require placing any blame what-so-ever. At best the author placed blame as a means to give Wired's American readership the moral relief they were looking for, something that appears to be a prerequisite for any article or discussion on the PA/IL conflict within the US. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Immediate_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_confl... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_...
m0skit0 12y ago
"Initiated by a Hamas attack on Israel, the most recent conflict" Please avoid such ignorant and biased comments. You actually don't need them for the article.
PakG1 12y ago
Dammit, HN, don't do it. http://xkcd.com/787/ http://xkcd.com/787/
- davidw 12y ago
  This article is, technically, sort of on-topic for this site, so I didn't flag it, but you can see how easily anything even remotely political goes off the rails and turns nasty. Maybe I should hit the 'flag' button.
  - cyphunk 12y ago
    I appreciate HN most for insights or debates on non-technical issues. So I wouldn't flag for it being OT. You may flag however for it getting too controversial. However, this will just a continued reality for anything in relation to Israel and Palestine for our life times.
    - angersock 12y ago
      Yes, I go to Hacker News to read things which aren't controversial. Sigh.
zvanness 12y ago
Uh oh, get ready for being called "anti-semetic" if you even remotely show any sympathy for these kids... I came across an article a while ago about some Palestinian kids inventing a device to convert plastic waste to petrol. I think it's amazing that amidst a world of hell, they are still trying to apply their minds: http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/12/occupation-cant-stifle-innovation/ http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/12/occupation-cant-stifle-innova...
- wslh 12y ago
  It seems like almost everyone was sympathetic with them.
bjourne 12y ago
Any idea on how we can help these guys and girls? Sending physical supplies has a low chance of getting through Israel's blockade. Can they somehow be connected to the Internet in a resilient way that survives bombs and restrictions?
- eksith 12y ago
  Ubiquiti was linked here a little while ago http://www.ubnt.com/broadband http://www.ubnt.com/broadband Their point-to-point wireless can travel a fair distance, but I don't know how resilient it can be. Something similar that is resistant to jamming (possibly frequency hopping, spread-spectrum) might be what's needed to bridge the gap to the wider internet. Of course, any emanating signal strong enough may attract fire as well, so local communication may be limited to mesh networks similar to what's being used now during the Hong Kong protests.
- peter303 12y ago
  US companies hire them on H1 visas. These people appear talented enough.
kjjw 12y ago
Get ready to hear indirectly from IDF PR the standard line of defence of their recent actions. "They started it!"
walk_monster 12y ago
As an Israeli, I think this is the way to solve this conflict. Because educated people like them, who want to live a normal life and build a career are the ones who can make a change. Its sad that so many people have to suffer because of a smaller number of religious fanatics that launch rockets from hospitals, dig tunnels into Israel, and are even against peace. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Palestinian_militancy_campaign http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Palestinian_militancy_camp... These people are the kind people who can change that. I really hope these guys succeed in their projects!
- pinkyand 12y ago
  How? If Gaza was democratic, like before the 2007 Hamas coop d'etat, I can see how educated people would help.How would they matter? i'm pretty sure if you asked today, almost everyone in Gaza would prefer the Hamas to just go away. If we judge from history, what they need now is some sort of civil war.
  - eksith 12y ago
    I'm not a starry eyed idealist (most of the time) to think everyone can hold hands and bring peace to the world, but there has to be a peaceful resolution to this somehow. A civil war is the absolute worst thing that can happen now as that will only bring unimaginable misery and horror to those who are already suffering on all sides of this conflict. Those who stand to profit the most, both politically and economically, will stand clear while shouting the loudest as usual while the most vulnerable and least inclined to commit violence will get caught in the fire.
    - pinkyand 12y ago
      Yes , a civil war would be awful, but maybe as a result we'll see democracy in Gaza and a chance for peace with Israel. On the other hand, is there any other realistic scenario where Hamas is replaced by a peaceful party? Or even Hamas being transformed into a peaceful party ? I'd love to hear a realistic one.
joshuaheard 12y ago
"Hamas—the democratically empowered Islamic organization determined to reclaim Palestine from Israel" If you mean hanging your political opponents from bridges and executing them in the public square, then yeah, Hamas is "democratically empowered". And the Hamas charter states its goal is the destruction of the state of Israel, not merely reclaiming land.
- Synaesthesia 12y ago
  Hamas won the elections in Gaza, which were supervised by Israel and the United States. Israel is also committed to the destruction of Gaza it would seem, by bombs, and the colonization of the West Bank. Remember Israel kicked Palestineans out of their homes during the 1948 war, simply appopriated their property and didn't allow them to return by passing an absentee landlord law.
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    ... and the Palestinian allies in the wars kicked almost all of their Jews out, in total more people than the Palestinians fleeing 1948, not in a burning civil war but in cold blood. Just because of their religion. Those jews from the Arab world and their children compose the majority of the Israeli population now. And as a fun fact, among all the property stolen from those Jews now living in Israel are land areas larger than Israel... We might go into how all other land losses from the 2nd world war time period are forgotten, except this one. And that it is kept alive by the refusal to integrate the refugee Palestinians by the Arab countries. The Palestinians got their lives destroyed, to keep the hate living. Arguably the Palestinians' allies did worse to them than anything the Israelis ever did to the Palestinians. The point is, you write simplified propaganda. Please keep that off my HN. :-(
  - EGreg 12y ago
    Hamas did win the elections in 06 - I followed them and they won on a platform of promising better social programs thantheir opponents. That was um - 8 years ago. In the immediate aftermath their actions drew sanctions from the US, EU, UN and Russia, on the entire Palestinian Authority, and they wound up splitting from the unified government and taking over Gaza. That led to the sanctions being lifted against the PA and imposed on Gaza alone. Then they had a civil war with Fatah over control of Gaza (which to be fair was just as much if not more Fatah's initiative) and wound up killing and expelling the rival Fatah government members from Gaza entirely. After this, a blockade was imposed on Gaza by both Israel and Egypt, as Hamas secured its iron grip on Gaza and routinely affirmed its ideological goal to "liberate" Palestine from the Zionists - a completely impractical diplomatic position that harmed the Gaza population enormously for the next decade. Not that Hamas was too concerned about that. They were getting funding from Islamic states and went to work securing the Gaza strip and consolidating its power. To its credit, Gaza is tribal (the clans are called Hamullas) and it plunged into anarchy in the aftermath of Israeli withdrawal and resettlement of all Israelis from the Gaza strip. You can appreciate the situation preceding these elections by reading some news articles from the time: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/17/international/middleeast/17mideast.html?pagewanted=print http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/17/international/middleeast/1... It is in this environment that Hamas, an organization committed to an ideology that it placed above the lives of Israelis and indeed Gazans - came to prominence. Since that election there have been no fair and free elections. I don't think the mark of a democracy is that they have one election and the majority party drive out the rest of the government and maintain an iron grip for the next couple decades. They are closer to the Kim regime in North Korea. Hamas's governancd has been terrible for the Gazans by perpetuating their blockade, and Hamas itself has become almost completely internationally isolated. In this latest war, an unprecedented number of nations including Egypt, Saudi Arabia and UAE have joined the chorus calling for their disarmament. So I would take issue with the idea that Hamas is somehow a legitimate and good government for the people of Gaza. Before this war, most of them wanted to get rid of Hamas! Having said that, operations like this cause people to support Hamas who they now would elect over Fatah leaders if elections were held today. This itself is sad because as has been shown over and over Hamas perpetuates the suffering of Palestinians. Not just because of international sanctions and nearbcomplete isolation, and not just because of expanding Sunni Sharia which hurts less Islamically religious Palestinians including Christians, etc. but at the root because they put their ideology ahead of human lives. Any ideology in power - whether nazism, communism, or in this case a fanatical belief that "All Palestine is a waqf to Islam until the end of the world" which is in their charter - leads to mass death. After all technically speaking Hitler may have been democratically elected. So we should guard against this. Having said that, I think Revisionist Zionism is the ideology that empowers the radicals on the Palestinian side, whether religious or not. Not all Zionism but Revisionist zionism, which traces its roots to Jabotinsky but ultimately found expression in such groups as Lehi and Irgun. Menachem Begin was despised by the main leaders of Israel such as Ben Gurion and the entire Labor party. It is interesting to note that at that time Israel was within the "1967 lines" and got even more threats from various Arab countries, that said they shouldn't have a state at all. Besides launching actul military attacks against Israel, many Arab countries also expelled Jews (a sort of Jewish Nakba, the main difference being that Jews had a state that welcomed them, a state which the Arab League nations wanted to destroy without regard to how many people lived in it). Not many people talk about this but the expelled Jews were able to find a home in Israel and swell its population. In fact most Jews in Israel came to Israel as refugees - whether from the Holocaust in Europe or the expulsion from Arab countries BEFORE 1967. Some went to Israel, others went to the US, China and Western countries. They were able to get asylum and their children have become citizens! Meanwhile millions of Palestinian refugees do not get the same treatment, even and especially from the Arab League countries that are supposedly championing their "cause" to begin with! Their actual treatment by these countries is appalling. Did you know that over half of the people considered "Palestinian" live OUTSIDE Israel, te West Bank and Gaza? For GENERATIONS they have lived as refugees with NO citizenship. Think about that - you live in a segregated "refugee camp" and barred (in countries such as Lebanon) from owning property or holding many jobs (doctor, lawyer etc.) Your children born in the land - no matter how many generations - do not get citizenship and spend their lives in the same situation. This is ACTUAL apartheid and it has been artificially perpetuated by many Arab League countries, while claiming it is for their own good. It's not a joke, the Jordanian govt has consistently said this as a talking point as recently as in the last decade. They refuse to give asylum specifically to Palestinians - even the ones fleeing the civil war in Syria. They simply drive them back over the border (whatever the UN conventions about that may be. There is an element of realpolitik here that most Western "free Gaza" protestors miss. Arab countries HAVE tried to take in Palestinians but experienced their own problems with the PLO. This idea that Palestinians should have their own state has played out in more theaters than Israel. The Jordanian government had a civil war with the PLO after it annexed the West Bank and it does not want to go back to that dark time again. Kuwait expelled Palestinians because the PLO sided with Saddam in the Gulf war. Lebanon's Hezbollah formed out of a Shiite minority funded by Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran as much against the influx of Sunni Palestinians (the PLO was based IN Lebanon at the time) as the Israeli army's activities in Lebanon. And just as recently as last year, Assad committed genuine war crimes against his Palestinian population living in refugee camps, such as cutting off food and starving tens of thousand of Palestinians in a camp that used to be the largest one in Syria with hundreds of thousands. http://www.timesofisrael.com/three-years-of-civil-war-in-syria-no-end-in-sight/ http://www.timesofisrael.com/three-years-of-civil-war-in-syr... So instead of the neatly packaged narrative of "Israel vs Palestinians" look at it as people, governments and ideas. How many millions of people and their generations of children living in Arab countries have to suffer because of the excuse that the policy supports building a Palestinian state in Palestine? Imagine if Jews were told by European nations that they had to live in 21st century ghettos for as many generations as it took until Israel was established. Not even the USSR - a militantly atheistic country - treated them this badly. Palestinian nationalism wasnt even a dominant movement until the PLO, and like all movements to forma state and get power, the PLO had its share of corruption. But millions of Palestinians have to pay the price, not at Israel's hands but other countries as well. Actualy, arguably speaking the Palestinians who live in Israel proper have the same quality of life as in Western countries such as Canada where they have real opportunities (the singer Nasri for example, whose song is currently topping the charts, is of Palestinian descent). And if they get their own state, there are legitimate reasons to worry it won't be very tolerant of Jews, Christians and will most likely be a Sunni Sharia state. So I guess there is a point to my whole essay that I wound up writing here. Look at people, look at governments and international coalitions and talk about ways those those governments can work together to benefit the people at large, economy, real infrastructure, and protections for minorities. There are no easy solutions but if international programs are put in place, with a realistic roadmap and accountability, and governments each do their part, we can solve these problems brick by brick. Expecting Israel to do it all alone is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Look at the new geopolitical alliances in the Arab and Persian world because of ideological jihadist threats like ISIS, look at te unprecedented will to disarm Hamas, and start there. Let's start helping people. http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=172 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=172 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=174 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=174
peter303 12y ago
There are creative, smart people everywhere
BrianEatWorld 12y ago
I am always amazed to hear how people live there. When I went to university, I remember meeting a guy from Gaza at a house party. At first, it was a bit of shock, because all the sudden this very distant place, which had spawned countless debates in my government and international politics classes, stopped being quite so far and became very real. I imagine I asked all the typical questions for a foreigner, particularly one informed by US media outlets. However, like this article, the most interesting thing was talking about every day life. He and I traded stories from our high school days, going to parties, first concerts, dating. Reading this now, it things look things have gotten worse, but I will never forget that realization that all over the world, people are just people. Good luck to these guys. Grinding in a startup isn't easy and I can't imagine doing it in a war zone helps.
- pyromine 12y ago
  I had a similar experience when I met someone from Iraq, all of a sudden Iraq was not some desolate place I only saw in the news, but somewhere I knew someone from. It really is incredible how different your perspective is simply by meeting someone from somewhere you only had an abstract concept of. The world really does feel smaller now.
  - Synaesthesia 12y ago
    Nationalism really holds the world back, pro,opting an us apps them kind of mentality. When really we are all very much the same, you will meet amazing people all around the world.
ilaksh 12y ago
I actually believe that technologists can't ethically remain aloof from politics, global geopolitics, or even military systems. There are too many lives at stake. I urge technologists who are concerned about this humanitarian crisis to look at a map of the area in question and research propaganda and global geopolitics in general.
davidf18 12y ago
I nearly escaped a terrorist attack that sent 20 soldiers to the hospital in Jerusalem in 2008 when I purchased a candy bar at the last moment. I was in Israel during "Cast Lead", Israel's 2008 incursion into Gaza. I also know someone whose pregnant wife was killed when a Hamas terrorist bombed a Jerusalem family restaurant that I had earlier attended. The article states that Israeli initiated a blockade of Gaza when Hamas won the election and that building materials and people are unable to enter or leave Gaza as a result. This is an incorrect statement because Israel does not surround Gaza, rather its border to the West is with Egypt which also closed their border, the Rafah Junction. In fact, the current President of Egypt, Sisi really hates Hamas (Hamas is the Gaza branch of The Muslim Brotherhood). The Muslim Brotherhood and other forms of militant Islam are threats of stability to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and other Arab countries. Both Egypt and Saudi Arabia were very supportive of Israel attacking Gaza in the recent conflict. President Sisi worked very hard to close the illegal tunnels between Gaza and Egypt. The cause of the suffering in Gaza is that Hamas shoots missiles into Israel. Those missiles and other war goods and concrete for making tunnels into Israel were smuggled through underground tunnels between Egypt and Gaza. Thus, the key to the safety of Gazan civilians is the closing of those tunnels and the demilitarization of Gaza/Hamas. Since Hamas took over Gaza in 2006, they have been shooting missiles into Israel, yet neither the US or other members of the International Community had until recently worked with Egypt to close those tunnels. We all feel terrible that innocent civilians in Gaza are being killed (just as innocent civilians in Germany and Japan were killed in WW II). Ultimately, the people who elected Hamas (just as those Germans who decided to follow Hitler) are ultimately responsible for the deaths of their fellow civilians.
- eli_gottlieb 12y ago
  > In fact, the current President of Egypt, Sisi really hates Hamas (Hamas is the Gaza branch of The Muslim Brotherhood). The Muslim Brotherhood and other forms of militant Islam are threats of stability to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and other Arab countries. It needs to be said (and I'm Israeli) that technically, Egypt had a revolution which led to democratic elections, which put the Muslim Brotherhood in power, which led to a military coup, which gave us General Sisi.

142 points by nreece 12y ago

What bothers me is that Hamas (and jihad-driven islamists in general) are seemingly a minority, even in Gaza. Why don't you build a reservation for them or something? There are many parties who are interested in re-igniting the conflict, for example those who sell weaponry. Clearly neither Israelis nor Gazans (talking about general population, like 99.9% of the people) are enjoying the moment. (I personally wrote many loc in a shelter, to a soundtrack of sirens and explosions — islamists' rockets aren't even targeted at something specific, they just continuously bomb more populated areas in Israel, major cities.)

IkmoIkmo 12y ago
Why don't you build a reservation for them or something? Seems to me all of Gaza is a reservation, as are the bantustans in the West Bank... I really don't mean to incite any political conversation here. I enjoy it, but I don't think HN is the right platform for any meaningful discussion, unless it's targeted to be. But this thread is about startups in harsh conditions.

616c 12y ago

I am sure that this article will turn into a political flamewar nightmare, but I really appreciate these kids trying. I live in much better circumstances and I am not sure I could stick my neck. By comparison, my reasons seem silly. I know some Gazans like elsewhere in the Arab world, but I have never asked them what internet connectivity is like in the Strip. Things are so bad with infrastructure stability, I could not believe they had functioning internet during routine bombardment and military operations, especially enough for startups. Very interesting article, but I have one pet peeve. The word is halas, it is routinely translated khalas or 5alas (from خلاص). I have studied Arabic now approaching ten years, and I have never seen this mistake before. What is funny is that, when mocking expats and foreigners trying to integrate culturally and linguistically in Arab cities (I was a target of this of course), this is like always the first word (then maashi, ok, then in shaa allah, God willing) every expat who spends time in the MENA region sprinkles into their speech. Almost always is it used in the incorrect context, with moronically extreme overuse. The journalist could have easily Googled this: halas tells you nothing on Google, while the first result for me for khalas is Yahoo Answers, where someone asks how to use that word.

Jun8 12y ago
Interesting point about khalas. Romanization of "ha" is problematic, "kh" is often used as you state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%B8%AA%C4%81%CA%BE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%B8%AA%C4%81%CA%BE). But for speakers who don't normally use this sound, e.g. English, this can lead to mispronunciation, where it is replaced by a "k" using backformation based on this transliteration. For example khan is usually pronounced as kahn in the US (as in "The Wrath of ..." or for a more recent one: Khaleesi) which is quite off. In this case using "h" would have been better perhaps. As the Wikipedia page mentions some IE languages also have this sound, but in this case it is generally transliterated as "ch", not "kh", e.g. Loch Ness, which adds to the confusion.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

cyphunk 12y ago

"Initiated by a Hamas attack on Israel" Narrow interpretations like these show either an ignorance of events or arrogant bias, and are not that hard to avoid as a writer if you actually try.

jsz- 12y ago
Technically, the recent conflict was in fact, initiated by Hamas.
- Myrmornis 12y ago
  Wow, I wish I had you around all the time so I could ask you how things technically are, in fact.
  - jsz- 12y ago
    A very helpful and contributing reply. @cyphunk claimed that Hamas did not start the recent conflict and accused Wired for 'narrow interpretation'. According to the FACTS, the recent round of violence in the Gaza strip was triggered by Hamas. I don't understand.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - cyphunk 12y ago
      There was and is still no proof that Hamas was responsible for the kidnapping of the two Israeli's teenagers. Netanyahu was quick to blame Hamas in a manner similar to Bush blaming Iraq for some tacit role in 9/11. Shortly after the event started an Israel spokesperson admitted in private that there was no evidence that Hamas leadership ordered or had any knowledge of the abduction [1][2]. Anti-arab (hateful and extremely disgusting) riots broke out in parts of Israel after the abduction which resulted in an Arab teenager being killed. From this point Hamas started launching rockets and Israel responded with bombing. It is my opinion that all of the parties were complicit in the escalation. It is also my opinion that Israel alone is guilty of heinous war crimes. But I had another point with my comment: The content of the article did not require placing any blame what-so-ever. At best the author placed blame as a means to give Wired's American readership the moral relief they were looking for, something that appears to be a prerequisite for any article or discussion on the PA/IL conflict within the US. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Immediate_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_confl... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_...

m0skit0 12y ago

"Initiated by a Hamas attack on Israel, the most recent conflict" Please avoid such ignorant and biased comments. You actually don't need them for the article.

PakG1 12y ago

Dammit, HN, don't do it. http://xkcd.com/787/ http://xkcd.com/787/

davidw 12y ago
This article is, technically, sort of on-topic for this site, so I didn't flag it, but you can see how easily anything even remotely political goes off the rails and turns nasty. Maybe I should hit the 'flag' button.
- cyphunk 12y ago
  I appreciate HN most for insights or debates on non-technical issues. So I wouldn't flag for it being OT. You may flag however for it getting too controversial. However, this will just a continued reality for anything in relation to Israel and Palestine for our life times.
  - angersock 12y ago
    Yes, I go to Hacker News to read things which aren't controversial. Sigh.

zvanness 12y ago

Uh oh, get ready for being called "anti-semetic" if you even remotely show any sympathy for these kids... I came across an article a while ago about some Palestinian kids inventing a device to convert plastic waste to petrol. I think it's amazing that amidst a world of hell, they are still trying to apply their minds: http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/12/occupation-cant-stifle-innovation/ http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/12/occupation-cant-stifle-innova...

wslh 12y ago
It seems like almost everyone was sympathetic with them.

bjourne 12y ago

Any idea on how we can help these guys and girls? Sending physical supplies has a low chance of getting through Israel's blockade. Can they somehow be connected to the Internet in a resilient way that survives bombs and restrictions?

eksith 12y ago
Ubiquiti was linked here a little while ago http://www.ubnt.com/broadband http://www.ubnt.com/broadband Their point-to-point wireless can travel a fair distance, but I don't know how resilient it can be. Something similar that is resistant to jamming (possibly frequency hopping, spread-spectrum) might be what's needed to bridge the gap to the wider internet. Of course, any emanating signal strong enough may attract fire as well, so local communication may be limited to mesh networks similar to what's being used now during the Hong Kong protests.
peter303 12y ago
US companies hire them on H1 visas. These people appear talented enough.

kjjw 12y ago

Get ready to hear indirectly from IDF PR the standard line of defence of their recent actions. "They started it!"

walk_monster 12y ago

As an Israeli, I think this is the way to solve this conflict. Because educated people like them, who want to live a normal life and build a career are the ones who can make a change. Its sad that so many people have to suffer because of a smaller number of religious fanatics that launch rockets from hospitals, dig tunnels into Israel, and are even against peace. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Palestinian_militancy_campaign http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Palestinian_militancy_camp... These people are the kind people who can change that. I really hope these guys succeed in their projects!

pinkyand 12y ago
How? If Gaza was democratic, like before the 2007 Hamas coop d'etat, I can see how educated people would help.How would they matter? i'm pretty sure if you asked today, almost everyone in Gaza would prefer the Hamas to just go away. If we judge from history, what they need now is some sort of civil war.
- eksith 12y ago
  I'm not a starry eyed idealist (most of the time) to think everyone can hold hands and bring peace to the world, but there has to be a peaceful resolution to this somehow. A civil war is the absolute worst thing that can happen now as that will only bring unimaginable misery and horror to those who are already suffering on all sides of this conflict. Those who stand to profit the most, both politically and economically, will stand clear while shouting the loudest as usual while the most vulnerable and least inclined to commit violence will get caught in the fire.
  - pinkyand 12y ago
    Yes , a civil war would be awful, but maybe as a result we'll see democracy in Gaza and a chance for peace with Israel. On the other hand, is there any other realistic scenario where Hamas is replaced by a peaceful party? Or even Hamas being transformed into a peaceful party ? I'd love to hear a realistic one.

joshuaheard 12y ago

"Hamas—the democratically empowered Islamic organization determined to reclaim Palestine from Israel" If you mean hanging your political opponents from bridges and executing them in the public square, then yeah, Hamas is "democratically empowered". And the Hamas charter states its goal is the destruction of the state of Israel, not merely reclaiming land.

Synaesthesia 12y ago
Hamas won the elections in Gaza, which were supervised by Israel and the United States. Israel is also committed to the destruction of Gaza it would seem, by bombs, and the colonization of the West Bank. Remember Israel kicked Palestineans out of their homes during the 1948 war, simply appopriated their property and didn't allow them to return by passing an absentee landlord law.
- BugBrother 12y ago
  ... and the Palestinian allies in the wars kicked almost all of their Jews out, in total more people than the Palestinians fleeing 1948, not in a burning civil war but in cold blood. Just because of their religion. Those jews from the Arab world and their children compose the majority of the Israeli population now. And as a fun fact, among all the property stolen from those Jews now living in Israel are land areas larger than Israel... We might go into how all other land losses from the 2nd world war time period are forgotten, except this one. And that it is kept alive by the refusal to integrate the refugee Palestinians by the Arab countries. The Palestinians got their lives destroyed, to keep the hate living. Arguably the Palestinians' allies did worse to them than anything the Israelis ever did to the Palestinians. The point is, you write simplified propaganda. Please keep that off my HN. :-(
- EGreg 12y ago
  Hamas did win the elections in 06 - I followed them and they won on a platform of promising better social programs thantheir opponents. That was um - 8 years ago. In the immediate aftermath their actions drew sanctions from the US, EU, UN and Russia, on the entire Palestinian Authority, and they wound up splitting from the unified government and taking over Gaza. That led to the sanctions being lifted against the PA and imposed on Gaza alone. Then they had a civil war with Fatah over control of Gaza (which to be fair was just as much if not more Fatah's initiative) and wound up killing and expelling the rival Fatah government members from Gaza entirely. After this, a blockade was imposed on Gaza by both Israel and Egypt, as Hamas secured its iron grip on Gaza and routinely affirmed its ideological goal to "liberate" Palestine from the Zionists - a completely impractical diplomatic position that harmed the Gaza population enormously for the next decade. Not that Hamas was too concerned about that. They were getting funding from Islamic states and went to work securing the Gaza strip and consolidating its power. To its credit, Gaza is tribal (the clans are called Hamullas) and it plunged into anarchy in the aftermath of Israeli withdrawal and resettlement of all Israelis from the Gaza strip. You can appreciate the situation preceding these elections by reading some news articles from the time: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/17/international/middleeast/17mideast.html?pagewanted=print http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/17/international/middleeast/1... It is in this environment that Hamas, an organization committed to an ideology that it placed above the lives of Israelis and indeed Gazans - came to prominence. Since that election there have been no fair and free elections. I don't think the mark of a democracy is that they have one election and the majority party drive out the rest of the government and maintain an iron grip for the next couple decades. They are closer to the Kim regime in North Korea. Hamas's governancd has been terrible for the Gazans by perpetuating their blockade, and Hamas itself has become almost completely internationally isolated. In this latest war, an unprecedented number of nations including Egypt, Saudi Arabia and UAE have joined the chorus calling for their disarmament. So I would take issue with the idea that Hamas is somehow a legitimate and good government for the people of Gaza. Before this war, most of them wanted to get rid of Hamas! Having said that, operations like this cause people to support Hamas who they now would elect over Fatah leaders if elections were held today. This itself is sad because as has been shown over and over Hamas perpetuates the suffering of Palestinians. Not just because of international sanctions and nearbcomplete isolation, and not just because of expanding Sunni Sharia which hurts less Islamically religious Palestinians including Christians, etc. but at the root because they put their ideology ahead of human lives. Any ideology in power - whether nazism, communism, or in this case a fanatical belief that "All Palestine is a waqf to Islam until the end of the world" which is in their charter - leads to mass death. After all technically speaking Hitler may have been democratically elected. So we should guard against this. Having said that, I think Revisionist Zionism is the ideology that empowers the radicals on the Palestinian side, whether religious or not. Not all Zionism but Revisionist zionism, which traces its roots to Jabotinsky but ultimately found expression in such groups as Lehi and Irgun. Menachem Begin was despised by the main leaders of Israel such as Ben Gurion and the entire Labor party. It is interesting to note that at that time Israel was within the "1967 lines" and got even more threats from various Arab countries, that said they shouldn't have a state at all. Besides launching actul military attacks against Israel, many Arab countries also expelled Jews (a sort of Jewish Nakba, the main difference being that Jews had a state that welcomed them, a state which the Arab League nations wanted to destroy without regard to how many people lived in it). Not many people talk about this but the expelled Jews were able to find a home in Israel and swell its population. In fact most Jews in Israel came to Israel as refugees - whether from the Holocaust in Europe or the expulsion from Arab countries BEFORE 1967. Some went to Israel, others went to the US, China and Western countries. They were able to get asylum and their children have become citizens! Meanwhile millions of Palestinian refugees do not get the same treatment, even and especially from the Arab League countries that are supposedly championing their "cause" to begin with! Their actual treatment by these countries is appalling. Did you know that over half of the people considered "Palestinian" live OUTSIDE Israel, te West Bank and Gaza? For GENERATIONS they have lived as refugees with NO citizenship. Think about that - you live in a segregated "refugee camp" and barred (in countries such as Lebanon) from owning property or holding many jobs (doctor, lawyer etc.) Your children born in the land - no matter how many generations - do not get citizenship and spend their lives in the same situation. This is ACTUAL apartheid and it has been artificially perpetuated by many Arab League countries, while claiming it is for their own good. It's not a joke, the Jordanian govt has consistently said this as a talking point as recently as in the last decade. They refuse to give asylum specifically to Palestinians - even the ones fleeing the civil war in Syria. They simply drive them back over the border (whatever the UN conventions about that may be. There is an element of realpolitik here that most Western "free Gaza" protestors miss. Arab countries HAVE tried to take in Palestinians but experienced their own problems with the PLO. This idea that Palestinians should have their own state has played out in more theaters than Israel. The Jordanian government had a civil war with the PLO after it annexed the West Bank and it does not want to go back to that dark time again. Kuwait expelled Palestinians because the PLO sided with Saddam in the Gulf war. Lebanon's Hezbollah formed out of a Shiite minority funded by Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran as much against the influx of Sunni Palestinians (the PLO was based IN Lebanon at the time) as the Israeli army's activities in Lebanon. And just as recently as last year, Assad committed genuine war crimes against his Palestinian population living in refugee camps, such as cutting off food and starving tens of thousand of Palestinians in a camp that used to be the largest one in Syria with hundreds of thousands. http://www.timesofisrael.com/three-years-of-civil-war-in-syria-no-end-in-sight/ http://www.timesofisrael.com/three-years-of-civil-war-in-syr... So instead of the neatly packaged narrative of "Israel vs Palestinians" look at it as people, governments and ideas. How many millions of people and their generations of children living in Arab countries have to suffer because of the excuse that the policy supports building a Palestinian state in Palestine? Imagine if Jews were told by European nations that they had to live in 21st century ghettos for as many generations as it took until Israel was established. Not even the USSR - a militantly atheistic country - treated them this badly. Palestinian nationalism wasnt even a dominant movement until the PLO, and like all movements to forma state and get power, the PLO had its share of corruption. But millions of Palestinians have to pay the price, not at Israel's hands but other countries as well. Actualy, arguably speaking the Palestinians who live in Israel proper have the same quality of life as in Western countries such as Canada where they have real opportunities (the singer Nasri for example, whose song is currently topping the charts, is of Palestinian descent). And if they get their own state, there are legitimate reasons to worry it won't be very tolerant of Jews, Christians and will most likely be a Sunni Sharia state. So I guess there is a point to my whole essay that I wound up writing here. Look at people, look at governments and international coalitions and talk about ways those those governments can work together to benefit the people at large, economy, real infrastructure, and protections for minorities. There are no easy solutions but if international programs are put in place, with a realistic roadmap and accountability, and governments each do their part, we can solve these problems brick by brick. Expecting Israel to do it all alone is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Look at the new geopolitical alliances in the Arab and Persian world because of ideological jihadist threats like ISIS, look at te unprecedented will to disarm Hamas, and start there. Let's start helping people. http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=172 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=172 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=174 http://magarshak.com/blog/?p=174

peter303 12y ago

There are creative, smart people everywhere

BrianEatWorld 12y ago

I am always amazed to hear how people live there. When I went to university, I remember meeting a guy from Gaza at a house party. At first, it was a bit of shock, because all the sudden this very distant place, which had spawned countless debates in my government and international politics classes, stopped being quite so far and became very real. I imagine I asked all the typical questions for a foreigner, particularly one informed by US media outlets. However, like this article, the most interesting thing was talking about every day life. He and I traded stories from our high school days, going to parties, first concerts, dating. Reading this now, it things look things have gotten worse, but I will never forget that realization that all over the world, people are just people. Good luck to these guys. Grinding in a startup isn't easy and I can't imagine doing it in a war zone helps.

pyromine 12y ago
I had a similar experience when I met someone from Iraq, all of a sudden Iraq was not some desolate place I only saw in the news, but somewhere I knew someone from. It really is incredible how different your perspective is simply by meeting someone from somewhere you only had an abstract concept of. The world really does feel smaller now.
- Synaesthesia 12y ago
  Nationalism really holds the world back, pro,opting an us apps them kind of mentality. When really we are all very much the same, you will meet amazing people all around the world.

ilaksh 12y ago

I actually believe that technologists can't ethically remain aloof from politics, global geopolitics, or even military systems. There are too many lives at stake. I urge technologists who are concerned about this humanitarian crisis to look at a map of the area in question and research propaganda and global geopolitics in general.

davidf18 12y ago

I nearly escaped a terrorist attack that sent 20 soldiers to the hospital in Jerusalem in 2008 when I purchased a candy bar at the last moment. I was in Israel during "Cast Lead", Israel's 2008 incursion into Gaza. I also know someone whose pregnant wife was killed when a Hamas terrorist bombed a Jerusalem family restaurant that I had earlier attended. The article states that Israeli initiated a blockade of Gaza when Hamas won the election and that building materials and people are unable to enter or leave Gaza as a result. This is an incorrect statement because Israel does not surround Gaza, rather its border to the West is with Egypt which also closed their border, the Rafah Junction. In fact, the current President of Egypt, Sisi really hates Hamas (Hamas is the Gaza branch of The Muslim Brotherhood). The Muslim Brotherhood and other forms of militant Islam are threats of stability to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and other Arab countries. Both Egypt and Saudi Arabia were very supportive of Israel attacking Gaza in the recent conflict. President Sisi worked very hard to close the illegal tunnels between Gaza and Egypt. The cause of the suffering in Gaza is that Hamas shoots missiles into Israel. Those missiles and other war goods and concrete for making tunnels into Israel were smuggled through underground tunnels between Egypt and Gaza. Thus, the key to the safety of Gazan civilians is the closing of those tunnels and the demilitarization of Gaza/Hamas. Since Hamas took over Gaza in 2006, they have been shooting missiles into Israel, yet neither the US or other members of the International Community had until recently worked with Egypt to close those tunnels. We all feel terrible that innocent civilians in Gaza are being killed (just as innocent civilians in Germany and Japan were killed in WW II). Ultimately, the people who elected Hamas (just as those Germans who decided to follow Hitler) are ultimately responsible for the deaths of their fellow civilians.

eli_gottlieb 12y ago
> In fact, the current President of Egypt, Sisi really hates Hamas (Hamas is the Gaza branch of The Muslim Brotherhood). The Muslim Brotherhood and other forms of militant Islam are threats of stability to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and other Arab countries. It needs to be said (and I'm Israeli) that technically, Egypt had a revolution which led to democratic elections, which put the Muslim Brotherhood in power, which led to a military coup, which gave us General Sisi.