7 ms·

Nimrod is being renamed to Nim

79 points by bilalhusain 12y ago

k__ 12y ago
why?
- bilalhusain 12y ago
  I can't find any official statements about this renaming (there's a BigBreak branch which is supposed to take care of renaming as per a thread reply on the forum[1]) but I assume that people have been citing the name as a barrier to a widespread adoption of Nimrod [2][3]. [1] http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/541 http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/541 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7076451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7076451 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7074774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7074774
wiremine 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#Idiom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#Idiom "In 15th-century English, "Nimrod" had come to mean tyrant" "In 20th-century American English, the term is now commonly used to mean a dimwitted or a stupid person." I could see how you wouldn't want your programming language to be considered a tyrant or a dimwit. Or a dimwitted tyrant. ;-)
- norswap 12y ago
  On the other hand, the most popular version control software is called "git".
  - aaron-lebo 12y ago
    Yes, not to mention, when was the last time you heard someone call somebody else a nimrod? The 1940s? It can't hurt and Nim is a short and memorable name. Realistically it will probably have very little impact (and the core devs likely know this). Whether Nim gains widespread adoption has a lot more to do with whether it can compete successfully with Rust, C++, or whatever is remotely similar to it. D, for example, has a really good name (the successor to C), but hasn't become heavily used in industry despite what advantages it does have and years of development.
    - sitkack 12y ago
      Nim should follow the tooling around Go and just steal all of the good parts. I think Nim's main competitor is Julia. I'd focus on weaving Nim and RoboVM code together so one could leverage all the libs from Java/JVM while getting native performance.
    - RogerL 12y ago
      > Yes, not to mention, when was the last time you heard someone call somebody else a nimrod? 1890s England? I hear it all the time. Probably nearly daily. It depends on your circles, I suppose.
      - aaron-lebo 12y ago
        I apologize for making such a broad statement. What portion of the US do you live in?
        eru 12y ago
        Why do you assume RogerL lives in the US? (RogerL probably does, but what makes you think so?)
        rakoo 12y ago
        As others have said, nimrod-as-an-insult seems to be a thing mostly in the US.
  - rz2k 12y ago
    You also probably do not want a version control system that is "liable to unpredictable changes".
- ternaryoperator 12y ago
  Having a pejorative reference to an unpleasant person didn't hurt git. Here, Araq has taken an association that is generally viewed as slightly humorous and moved to a name with which no one has any associations, either good or bad. In tech marketing, taking a brand that's been invested in and renaming it for no good reason is something you should be loath to do, as it throws away the value and associations that exist with the current brand. Among the typical "good reasons" for changing the name in are: 1) the brand has been diminished by some bad news / negagive attention and so they're rebranding; 2) the brand causes confusion with other products; 3) legal reasons; 4) some other well-defined limitation that makes growth impossible. Without having any more insight into the reasons behind this, it's hard to see whether this is a good move or the beginning of a decline for Nimrod as a concept.
  - JadeNB 12y ago
    > Here, Araq has taken an association that is generally viewed as slightly humorous and moved to a name with which no one has any associations, either good or bad. That's not true; every mathematician knows the game of Nim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim (_asummers points this out below: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8352021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8352021). I agree that it's a pretty neutral association, but, then again, did the name 'Nimrod' ever really have anything to do with the language? (I don't know.)
    - adrusi 12y ago
      Nimrod was a character in the story of the tower of babel, which explains the diversity of languages in the old testament. Hence its relation to programming languages.
      - andrewflnr 12y ago
        Ah, no. Nimrod had nothing to do with Babel.
        adrusi 12y ago
- fsck--off 12y ago
  Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah, and he is mentioned in the book of Genesis as "a mighty hunter before the lord." So great hunters were sometimes called "Nimrod" as a compliment. Bugs Bunny taunted Elmer Fudd, a stupid an incompetent hunter that failed to catch Bugs Bunny, by calling him a Nimrod. But the children who watched Loony Tunes didn't get the joke and so they assumed it was a synonym for "stupid and incompetent." Imagine that in the future people think that that "Einstein" means "imbecile" because "you're a regular Einstein" was an ironic taunt. It's the same idea.
  - cjoh 12y ago
    Well, except that Einstein was an actual person, and Nimrod was a mythological one.
    - Crito 12y ago
      Hardly an important distinction for these intents and purposes; particularly since those stories were widely taught as fact until fairly recently.
    - sigzero 12y ago
      And you know that how? Yeah, you don't. It isn't even relevant to this conversation.
  - deanmen 12y ago
    "Dunce" comes from the name of the philosopher Duns Scotus.
  - wslh 12y ago
    Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quando_el_Rey_Nimrod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quando_el_Rey_Nimrod
- Rayearth 12y ago
  Also, the British have named a bunch of ships "Nimrod" in centuries past. I think the name has a bit of dignity because of that.
  - Nursie 12y ago
    IIRC we Brits also have/had some sort of reconaissance aircraft by that name too. Also, wasn't there a living-metal future-sentinel type thing in the X-Men stories that was called Nimrod and was pretty terrifying?
joshfinnie 12y ago
I can only see this helping them... even by a little. Never understood the naming strategies of some folks.
- rbehrends 12y ago
  The derogatory meaning of the word is US-specific. To the rest of the world, Nimrod is simply the mythical character. Nimrod's author is German. It's not surprising that he wasn't aware of the American slang usage.
  - aaron-lebo 12y ago
    Is Nimrod mentioned in any historical texts outside of the Bible? It seems like Bible trivia that very few people would know, perhaps especially outside of the US.
    - cannam 12y ago
      In Britain, "Nimrod" may be best known as the title of a very popular piece of orchestral music (from Elgar's Enigma Variations).
    - roywiggins 12y ago
      He was kind of a big deal in the Old Testament as a Baddie and Wikipedia says his story was well-known, especially in Islam and Judaism. > The story of Abraham's confrontation with Nimrod did not remain within the confines of learned writings and religious treatises, but also conspicuously influenced popular culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#The_evil_Nimrod_vs._the_righteous_Abraham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#The_evil_Nimrod_vs._the_...
_asummers 12y ago
People will get confused when people Google it and find the poset game Nim[1]. Unless of course that's what they were going for. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim
- 88e282102ae2e5b 12y ago
  If the programming language has any web presence at all, it will quickly bury the game. Also, it's not like people are going to overhear the word "nim" completely out of context and then google it. If you know it's a programming language, it will be easy to find resources.
  - JadeNB 12y ago
    Given the long mathematical heritage of the game (check out its Google presence: https://www.google.com/search?q=Nim https://www.google.com/search?q=Nim), I'm not sure that I believe that it'll be so easily upset. On the other hand, the first page of results for https://www.google.com/search?q=Ruby https://www.google.com/search?q=Ruby (except the image results) are all about the language, not the gem, so I could be wrong!
- roywiggins 12y ago
  I guess Go is doing well enough sharing a name with an ancient board game, and the two languages are occasionally compared, so it's a bit fitting that way.
  - Tobani 12y ago
    When googling for go language related things, you may have a hard time, unless you know to use golang instead of go depending on context. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=go+strategy https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e... vs https://www.google.com/search?q=golang+strategy&oq=golang+strategy&aqs=chrome..69i57j0j69i64.2675j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=golang+strategy&oq=golang+st...
HeyImAlex 12y ago
Honestly, smart move. I'm kind of embarrassed to say that I decided not to look into nimrod much, despite hearing great things about it from a few people, all because of the name. Figured that it would never gain any semblance of wide adoption under "nimrod" so why bother when there are other languages that are just as cool and may be a marketable skill someday? Or maybe I'm just rationalizing my shallow knee jerk reaction after the fact. Either way... nim sounds much better :)
- norswap 12y ago
  Wow, why? Is it offensive somehow?
  - djur 12y ago
    It's a slang term for "idiot" in American English.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - norswap 12y ago
      And that's what people find offensive these day? Interesting.
      - dragonwriter 12y ago
        I don't think its a matter of "offensive" so much as "carries negative associations", which both has first order effects (makes some people less likely to use it because it is less attractive on an sub-rational level) and second order effects (makes some people less likely to use it because they perceive that it is less likely to be a long term success because other people are likely to find it less attractive on a sub-rational level). Not all negative associations are about a term being "offensive".
codereflection 12y ago
And yet loads of us use "git" without an issue.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- stronglikedan 12y ago
  Just guessing, but I would say that's because "git" is only derogatory in British English, and wasn't popular (if even existent) in American English until it's use as the name of a DVCS.
  - orionblastar 12y ago
    I always thought that git was a form of got or get. Get me the source code. I got the source code. Git is almost like a slang word that means get or got. Yeah in British English it means a stupid person, you useless git! Almost like Nimrod means stupid dimwitted person.
    - codereflection 12y ago
      That makes sense. However if you look at Linus' description of git, a "stupid content tracker", then the British English derogatory term makes sense.
    - JadeNB 12y ago
      > Git is almost like a slang word that means get or got. Perhaps more dialect than slang? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_Along,_Little_Dogies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_Along,_Little_Dogies
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    "wasn't popular (if even existent) in American English until it's use as the name of a DVCS." ... and the quoting of Monty Python
  - codereflection 12y ago
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
The name change really only seems to be present in the repository description for now. Virtually everything else has been left unscathed. I think it's a shame, personally. The name "Nimrod" is just so distinctive and it's going to be pretty hard (at least for me) to shake off the inertia.
stonemetal 12y ago
So, is he going to change the logo to a rat?(after the children's book Rats of NIMH) Seriously though the name was good for a chuckle but made the language slightly more memorable. Mostly I tend to think of the British spy plane when I hear the name, not the insult.
orionblastar 12y ago
Nimrod was a King of Babylon, he was considered a hunter of panthers. The Greek Orion was supposed to be based on him and shares the same star consolation. So was Osirus. His birthday was December 25th. It was Arabic that gave the definition of a tyrant, as I suppose they saw him as one. Bungs Bunny called Elmer Fudd a 'Nimrod' in a cartoon that made the connection of hunter to really dimwitted or stupid person. I guess that is where the second definition came in. Always research the words you use to describe your project, there may be negative meanings to them. Even in a foreign language as well. Chevy Nova, in Spanish it meant the car doesn't run.
lobster_johnson 12y ago
Glad to see it. Sure, names don't really mean all that much in the final run; influential brands tend to cancel out pre-existing negative connotations (see: Git). But for nascent projects like Nim, a name with pre-existing connotations can be a burden, and a cool name can give a useful boost. Of course, what I think when I see Nim now is The Secret of NIMH: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084649/reference http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084649/reference.
ilaksh 12y ago
In some important ways (clean code, performance, metaprogramming) the engineering is way ahead of the competition. I'm actually amazed how quickly this has gone from a little-known project to something that leading engineers are putting in their tool belt as an alternative to Python, C++ and other languages for a wide variety of tasks.
nkurz 12y ago
It's interesting to consider this in light of the opening quote on the language's homepage (which still refers to it as Nimrod): The most important thing in the programming language is the name. A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language. -- D. E. Knuth http://nim-lang.org/ http://nim-lang.org/

79 points by bilalhusain 12y ago

k__ 12y ago

why?

bilalhusain 12y ago
I can't find any official statements about this renaming (there's a BigBreak branch which is supposed to take care of renaming as per a thread reply on the forum[1]) but I assume that people have been citing the name as a barrier to a widespread adoption of Nimrod [2][3]. [1] http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/541 http://forum.nimrod-lang.org/t/541 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7076451 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7076451 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7074774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7074774

wiremine 12y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#Idiom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#Idiom "In 15th-century English, "Nimrod" had come to mean tyrant" "In 20th-century American English, the term is now commonly used to mean a dimwitted or a stupid person." I could see how you wouldn't want your programming language to be considered a tyrant or a dimwit. Or a dimwitted tyrant. ;-)

norswap 12y ago
On the other hand, the most popular version control software is called "git".
- aaron-lebo 12y ago
  Yes, not to mention, when was the last time you heard someone call somebody else a nimrod? The 1940s? It can't hurt and Nim is a short and memorable name. Realistically it will probably have very little impact (and the core devs likely know this). Whether Nim gains widespread adoption has a lot more to do with whether it can compete successfully with Rust, C++, or whatever is remotely similar to it. D, for example, has a really good name (the successor to C), but hasn't become heavily used in industry despite what advantages it does have and years of development.
  - sitkack 12y ago
    Nim should follow the tooling around Go and just steal all of the good parts. I think Nim's main competitor is Julia. I'd focus on weaving Nim and RoboVM code together so one could leverage all the libs from Java/JVM while getting native performance.
  - RogerL 12y ago
    > Yes, not to mention, when was the last time you heard someone call somebody else a nimrod? 1890s England? I hear it all the time. Probably nearly daily. It depends on your circles, I suppose.
    - aaron-lebo 12y ago
      I apologize for making such a broad statement. What portion of the US do you live in?
      - eru 12y ago
        Why do you assume RogerL lives in the US? (RogerL probably does, but what makes you think so?)
        rakoo 12y ago
        As others have said, nimrod-as-an-insult seems to be a thing mostly in the US.
- rz2k 12y ago
  You also probably do not want a version control system that is "liable to unpredictable changes".
ternaryoperator 12y ago
Having a pejorative reference to an unpleasant person didn't hurt git. Here, Araq has taken an association that is generally viewed as slightly humorous and moved to a name with which no one has any associations, either good or bad. In tech marketing, taking a brand that's been invested in and renaming it for no good reason is something you should be loath to do, as it throws away the value and associations that exist with the current brand. Among the typical "good reasons" for changing the name in are: 1) the brand has been diminished by some bad news / negagive attention and so they're rebranding; 2) the brand causes confusion with other products; 3) legal reasons; 4) some other well-defined limitation that makes growth impossible. Without having any more insight into the reasons behind this, it's hard to see whether this is a good move or the beginning of a decline for Nimrod as a concept.
- JadeNB 12y ago
  > Here, Araq has taken an association that is generally viewed as slightly humorous and moved to a name with which no one has any associations, either good or bad. That's not true; every mathematician knows the game of Nim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim (_asummers points this out below: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8352021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8352021). I agree that it's a pretty neutral association, but, then again, did the name 'Nimrod' ever really have anything to do with the language? (I don't know.)
  - adrusi 12y ago
    Nimrod was a character in the story of the tower of babel, which explains the diversity of languages in the old testament. Hence its relation to programming languages.
    - andrewflnr 12y ago
      Ah, no. Nimrod had nothing to do with Babel.
      - adrusi 12y ago
fsck--off 12y ago
Nimrod was the great grandson of Noah, and he is mentioned in the book of Genesis as "a mighty hunter before the lord." So great hunters were sometimes called "Nimrod" as a compliment. Bugs Bunny taunted Elmer Fudd, a stupid an incompetent hunter that failed to catch Bugs Bunny, by calling him a Nimrod. But the children who watched Loony Tunes didn't get the joke and so they assumed it was a synonym for "stupid and incompetent." Imagine that in the future people think that that "Einstein" means "imbecile" because "you're a regular Einstein" was an ironic taunt. It's the same idea.
- cjoh 12y ago
  Well, except that Einstein was an actual person, and Nimrod was a mythological one.
  - Crito 12y ago
    Hardly an important distinction for these intents and purposes; particularly since those stories were widely taught as fact until fairly recently.
  - sigzero 12y ago
    And you know that how? Yeah, you don't. It isn't even relevant to this conversation.
- deanmen 12y ago
  "Dunce" comes from the name of the philosopher Duns Scotus.
- wslh 12y ago
  Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quando_el_Rey_Nimrod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quando_el_Rey_Nimrod
Rayearth 12y ago
Also, the British have named a bunch of ships "Nimrod" in centuries past. I think the name has a bit of dignity because of that.
- Nursie 12y ago
  IIRC we Brits also have/had some sort of reconaissance aircraft by that name too. Also, wasn't there a living-metal future-sentinel type thing in the X-Men stories that was called Nimrod and was pretty terrifying?

joshfinnie 12y ago

I can only see this helping them... even by a little. Never understood the naming strategies of some folks.

rbehrends 12y ago
The derogatory meaning of the word is US-specific. To the rest of the world, Nimrod is simply the mythical character. Nimrod's author is German. It's not surprising that he wasn't aware of the American slang usage.
- aaron-lebo 12y ago
  Is Nimrod mentioned in any historical texts outside of the Bible? It seems like Bible trivia that very few people would know, perhaps especially outside of the US.
  - cannam 12y ago
    In Britain, "Nimrod" may be best known as the title of a very popular piece of orchestral music (from Elgar's Enigma Variations).
  - roywiggins 12y ago
    He was kind of a big deal in the Old Testament as a Baddie and Wikipedia says his story was well-known, especially in Islam and Judaism. > The story of Abraham's confrontation with Nimrod did not remain within the confines of learned writings and religious treatises, but also conspicuously influenced popular culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#The_evil_Nimrod_vs._the_righteous_Abraham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod#The_evil_Nimrod_vs._the_...

_asummers 12y ago

People will get confused when people Google it and find the poset game Nim[1]. Unless of course that's what they were going for. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim

88e282102ae2e5b 12y ago
If the programming language has any web presence at all, it will quickly bury the game. Also, it's not like people are going to overhear the word "nim" completely out of context and then google it. If you know it's a programming language, it will be easy to find resources.
- JadeNB 12y ago
  Given the long mathematical heritage of the game (check out its Google presence: https://www.google.com/search?q=Nim https://www.google.com/search?q=Nim), I'm not sure that I believe that it'll be so easily upset. On the other hand, the first page of results for https://www.google.com/search?q=Ruby https://www.google.com/search?q=Ruby (except the image results) are all about the language, not the gem, so I could be wrong!
roywiggins 12y ago
I guess Go is doing well enough sharing a name with an ancient board game, and the two languages are occasionally compared, so it's a bit fitting that way.
- Tobani 12y ago
  When googling for go language related things, you may have a hard time, unless you know to use golang instead of go depending on context. https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=go+strategy https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&e... vs https://www.google.com/search?q=golang+strategy&oq=golang+strategy&aqs=chrome..69i57j0j69i64.2675j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=golang+strategy&oq=golang+st...

HeyImAlex 12y ago

Honestly, smart move. I'm kind of embarrassed to say that I decided not to look into nimrod much, despite hearing great things about it from a few people, all because of the name. Figured that it would never gain any semblance of wide adoption under "nimrod" so why bother when there are other languages that are just as cool and may be a marketable skill someday? Or maybe I'm just rationalizing my shallow knee jerk reaction after the fact. Either way... nim sounds much better :)

norswap 12y ago
Wow, why? Is it offensive somehow?
- djur 12y ago
  It's a slang term for "idiot" in American English.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - norswap 12y ago
    And that's what people find offensive these day? Interesting.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      I don't think its a matter of "offensive" so much as "carries negative associations", which both has first order effects (makes some people less likely to use it because it is less attractive on an sub-rational level) and second order effects (makes some people less likely to use it because they perceive that it is less likely to be a long term success because other people are likely to find it less attractive on a sub-rational level). Not all negative associations are about a term being "offensive".

codereflection 12y ago

And yet loads of us use "git" without an issue.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
stronglikedan 12y ago
Just guessing, but I would say that's because "git" is only derogatory in British English, and wasn't popular (if even existent) in American English until it's use as the name of a DVCS.
- orionblastar 12y ago
  I always thought that git was a form of got or get. Get me the source code. I got the source code. Git is almost like a slang word that means get or got. Yeah in British English it means a stupid person, you useless git! Almost like Nimrod means stupid dimwitted person.
  - codereflection 12y ago
    That makes sense. However if you look at Linus' description of git, a "stupid content tracker", then the British English derogatory term makes sense.
  - JadeNB 12y ago
    > Git is almost like a slang word that means get or got. Perhaps more dialect than slang? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_Along,_Little_Dogies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_Along,_Little_Dogies
- dllthomas 12y ago
  "wasn't popular (if even existent) in American English until it's use as the name of a DVCS." ... and the quoting of Monty Python
- codereflection 12y ago

vezzy-fnord 12y ago

The name change really only seems to be present in the repository description for now. Virtually everything else has been left unscathed. I think it's a shame, personally. The name "Nimrod" is just so distinctive and it's going to be pretty hard (at least for me) to shake off the inertia.

stonemetal 12y ago

So, is he going to change the logo to a rat?(after the children's book Rats of NIMH) Seriously though the name was good for a chuckle but made the language slightly more memorable. Mostly I tend to think of the British spy plane when I hear the name, not the insult.

orionblastar 12y ago

Nimrod was a King of Babylon, he was considered a hunter of panthers. The Greek Orion was supposed to be based on him and shares the same star consolation. So was Osirus. His birthday was December 25th. It was Arabic that gave the definition of a tyrant, as I suppose they saw him as one. Bungs Bunny called Elmer Fudd a 'Nimrod' in a cartoon that made the connection of hunter to really dimwitted or stupid person. I guess that is where the second definition came in. Always research the words you use to describe your project, there may be negative meanings to them. Even in a foreign language as well. Chevy Nova, in Spanish it meant the car doesn't run.

lobster_johnson 12y ago

Glad to see it. Sure, names don't really mean all that much in the final run; influential brands tend to cancel out pre-existing negative connotations (see: Git). But for nascent projects like Nim, a name with pre-existing connotations can be a burden, and a cool name can give a useful boost. Of course, what I think when I see Nim now is The Secret of NIMH: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084649/reference http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084649/reference.

ilaksh 12y ago

In some important ways (clean code, performance, metaprogramming) the engineering is way ahead of the competition. I'm actually amazed how quickly this has gone from a little-known project to something that leading engineers are putting in their tool belt as an alternative to Python, C++ and other languages for a wide variety of tasks.

nkurz 12y ago

It's interesting to consider this in light of the opening quote on the language's homepage (which still refers to it as Nimrod): The most important thing in the programming language is the name. A language will not succeed without a good name. I have recently invented a very good name and now I am looking for a suitable language. -- D. E. Knuth http://nim-lang.org/ http://nim-lang.org/