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1) It's more of a distinction between the virtual world and the physical world. My household values the physical world much more. Call me old-fashioned, but I t

1) It's more of a distinction between the virtual world and the physical world. My household values the physical world much more. Call me old-fashioned, but I take my notes on a pen and pocket notebook, rather than an iPhone or text editor or todo-app. 2) I used that phrase out of habit. I meant the physical world as opposed to the virtual world. But even though they're both "real", there are very important differences. 3) Yeah, I probably would have. 4) The fact that there is no official clear purpose for downvoting implies it's up to the community to decide. Which is actually a really cool social experiment on their end, but in practice it's just utterly stupid, and I'm really sick of it.

radicaledward 12y ago
Before I start, I want to make it clear that I am smiling as I type this. I think this discussion is valuable, and your opinions are valuable. While I disagree with you on many points, I am not trying to insult you. :-) Responses to your responses: 1 and 2) I guess I'm trying to say that maybe the differences do not matter as much as you think they do. The virtual world is encroaching on the physical world more and more, but in the same way, our lives are sliding into the virtual just as much. Not only does this seem to be inevitable to me, but it also seems like a positive development. 3) I would certainly be a different person! I don't think we can really know which approach was better, but I know that I am enjoying life as I am. I fear that less freedom as a child would have turned me into a bitter, broken adult. 5) It is a cool social experiment! I'm not sick of it though :-) I might not respond again for a while. There is work to be done! (edited for formatting)
- sdegutis 12y ago
  In short, we totally disagree about everything. Not surprising, given the # of downvotes I'm getting on here all the time. Perhaps it's time I break up with HN.
  - nkurz 12y ago
    No, stick around. It might help if you wrote slightly longer comments and better explained your perspective, but looking at your comment history, you appear to be an asset to the community (genuine, no sarcasm). It's good on both sides to see truly different perspectives and be reminded that some of the things we take for granted are not universally held.
    - scott_karana 12y ago
      > No, stick around I second this, I find sdegutis's comments to be very useful, if only to provide a fresh (and entirely valid) perspective. Contrast is so so needed in our community...
      - sdegutis 12y ago
        The purpose of downvoting is not clearly defined. Until it's clearly defined, people can and do downvote because they disagree. The result of downvoting is not simply a karma thing. It actually effects visibility of comments. Downvoted comments do not get any discussion. Therefore, writing a comment that gets downvoted is a one-way communication channel. There's no benefit in it for me when there is no discussion. My time is too precious to give away for free. Your time is too precious to waste reading downvoted comments. So it's in everyone's best interest for people who don't share popular opinion to stop commenting. That includes me.
        waterlesscloud 12y ago
        You've just had a lengthy, interesting discussion contrasting your unpopular viewpoint with HN's popular viewpoint. So it's not like it can't happen.
        sdegutis 12y ago
        This was an exception. My comments generally get downvoted to oblivion and ignored.
        Intermernet 12y ago
  - chroma 12y ago
    To me, it seems that the main points of disagreement stem from your religious views. So when you do disagree with others on HN, your choices are: 1. State your disagreement and justify it with religious reasons. Good luck avoiding downvotes. 2. State your disagreement without justifying your reasoning. This comes across as over-assuming and somewhat rude. Also, many people recognize your username and fill in the blanks. For you, the only way to win is not to play.
    - sdegutis 12y ago
      Good point.
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    > Perhaps it's time I break up with HN. Please do stick around. I do not downvote things I disagree with, not if they're written in the measured and sensible manner that you do it. Many people on HN are like that. Instead they will reply (as they have done here in this thread) with polite replies explaining their own viewpoints. The only reason to leave is if you actually don't care about reading those.
norswap 12y ago
And still, you're the author of a very popular window management tool. I'm surprised, it seems not to mesh very well with the philosophy you describe. Any comment?
- sdegutis 12y ago
  My window manager is designed to be extensible from outside the app, which means my involvement is no longer needed. This means I can spend all my spare time playing with my kids or reading books.
DanBC 12y ago
You deny your children's autonomy because you wish to impose your values on them. I find that deeply disturbing. Your choice to ban a fun relaxing game because your children enjoyed it is as weird to me as people who ban rock music because SATANIC SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES or people who ban Elvis Presley because JUNGLE MUSIC or the Scottish cult who banned calculators not because they wanted to improve mental math but because SATAN TALKS TO YOU THROUGH SCREENS. Children have obsessions - see lists of dinosaurs for one example. And of course they're competive - "zx spectrum is much better than vic 20". It's probably a good idea to remind them that they're not infallible and to encourage a few other interests. But, your children your choice, I guess.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  My wife and I are planning to have children soon. We have thought about this heavily and have considered a non-digital household at least until they are 9 or 10 specifically so we can encourage them to express their individuality. This isn't an easy choice: it is much easier to entertain a kid with an iPad than with a box of Lego's. My problem isn't so much that digital devices can't be used creatively (we know they can), just that they are too easy for kids to slip into deep passive consumption modes (like say TV).
  - wiredfool 12y ago
    I'll just point out that a large percentage of my kids' screen time is taken up using the iPads to look up lego instructions online.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      That is reassuring. I'm really ok with them having access after early childhood.
  - Filligree 12y ago
    It's very hard to do passive consumption with things like Minecraft, and there are definite advantages to learning about computers early. Instead of blocking off the computer entirely, why don't you instead limit what they can do on it? No, or very limited website access; very few AAA-type games, more sandbox-type games, etc.
imarg 12y ago
Maybe disagreement could be indicated with a different way, other than downvotes. And maybe when many disagree with a post it would actually promote this post because it would be good for discussion.

radicaledward 12y ago

Before I start, I want to make it clear that I am smiling as I type this. I think this discussion is valuable, and your opinions are valuable. While I disagree with you on many points, I am not trying to insult you. :-) Responses to your responses: 1 and 2) I guess I'm trying to say that maybe the differences do not matter as much as you think they do. The virtual world is encroaching on the physical world more and more, but in the same way, our lives are sliding into the virtual just as much. Not only does this seem to be inevitable to me, but it also seems like a positive development. 3) I would certainly be a different person! I don't think we can really know which approach was better, but I know that I am enjoying life as I am. I fear that less freedom as a child would have turned me into a bitter, broken adult. 5) It is a cool social experiment! I'm not sick of it though :-) I might not respond again for a while. There is work to be done! (edited for formatting)

sdegutis 12y ago
In short, we totally disagree about everything. Not surprising, given the # of downvotes I'm getting on here all the time. Perhaps it's time I break up with HN.
- nkurz 12y ago
  No, stick around. It might help if you wrote slightly longer comments and better explained your perspective, but looking at your comment history, you appear to be an asset to the community (genuine, no sarcasm). It's good on both sides to see truly different perspectives and be reminded that some of the things we take for granted are not universally held.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    > No, stick around I second this, I find sdegutis's comments to be very useful, if only to provide a fresh (and entirely valid) perspective. Contrast is so so needed in our community...
    - sdegutis 12y ago
      The purpose of downvoting is not clearly defined. Until it's clearly defined, people can and do downvote because they disagree. The result of downvoting is not simply a karma thing. It actually effects visibility of comments. Downvoted comments do not get any discussion. Therefore, writing a comment that gets downvoted is a one-way communication channel. There's no benefit in it for me when there is no discussion. My time is too precious to give away for free. Your time is too precious to waste reading downvoted comments. So it's in everyone's best interest for people who don't share popular opinion to stop commenting. That includes me.
      - waterlesscloud 12y ago
        You've just had a lengthy, interesting discussion contrasting your unpopular viewpoint with HN's popular viewpoint. So it's not like it can't happen.
        sdegutis 12y ago
        This was an exception. My comments generally get downvoted to oblivion and ignored.
      - Intermernet 12y ago
- chroma 12y ago
  To me, it seems that the main points of disagreement stem from your religious views. So when you do disagree with others on HN, your choices are: 1. State your disagreement and justify it with religious reasons. Good luck avoiding downvotes. 2. State your disagreement without justifying your reasoning. This comes across as over-assuming and somewhat rude. Also, many people recognize your username and fill in the blanks. For you, the only way to win is not to play.
  - sdegutis 12y ago
    Good point.
- tripzilch 12y ago
  > Perhaps it's time I break up with HN. Please do stick around. I do not downvote things I disagree with, not if they're written in the measured and sensible manner that you do it. Many people on HN are like that. Instead they will reply (as they have done here in this thread) with polite replies explaining their own viewpoints. The only reason to leave is if you actually don't care about reading those.

norswap 12y ago

And still, you're the author of a very popular window management tool. I'm surprised, it seems not to mesh very well with the philosophy you describe. Any comment?

sdegutis 12y ago
My window manager is designed to be extensible from outside the app, which means my involvement is no longer needed. This means I can spend all my spare time playing with my kids or reading books.

DanBC 12y ago

You deny your children's autonomy because you wish to impose your values on them. I find that deeply disturbing. Your choice to ban a fun relaxing game because your children enjoyed it is as weird to me as people who ban rock music because SATANIC SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES or people who ban Elvis Presley because JUNGLE MUSIC or the Scottish cult who banned calculators not because they wanted to improve mental math but because SATAN TALKS TO YOU THROUGH SCREENS. Children have obsessions - see lists of dinosaurs for one example. And of course they're competive - "zx spectrum is much better than vic 20". It's probably a good idea to remind them that they're not infallible and to encourage a few other interests. But, your children your choice, I guess.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
My wife and I are planning to have children soon. We have thought about this heavily and have considered a non-digital household at least until they are 9 or 10 specifically so we can encourage them to express their individuality. This isn't an easy choice: it is much easier to entertain a kid with an iPad than with a box of Lego's. My problem isn't so much that digital devices can't be used creatively (we know they can), just that they are too easy for kids to slip into deep passive consumption modes (like say TV).
- wiredfool 12y ago
  I'll just point out that a large percentage of my kids' screen time is taken up using the iPads to look up lego instructions online.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    That is reassuring. I'm really ok with them having access after early childhood.
- Filligree 12y ago
  It's very hard to do passive consumption with things like Minecraft, and there are definite advantages to learning about computers early. Instead of blocking off the computer entirely, why don't you instead limit what they can do on it? No, or very limited website access; very few AAA-type games, more sandbox-type games, etc.

imarg 12y ago

Maybe disagreement could be indicated with a different way, other than downvotes. And maybe when many disagree with a post it would actually promote this post because it would be good for discussion.