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> Cell phones are not dangerous because the driver was looking at his phone or playing with the buttons when he had an accident. They are dangerous because they

> Cell phones are not dangerous because the driver was looking at his phone or playing with the buttons when he had an accident. They are dangerous because they encourage your mind to wander. I'm going to speculate that driving is such an activity that doesn't require constant attention and involves quite a bit of monotony. In such circumstances, mind wandering will happen—be there a mobile phone, Navdy, or nothing at all. This is a human factor. The only complete solution to this issue seems to be self-driving cars, when your mind and its wandering are taken out of equation. With that in mind, a mobile phone doesn't seem to stand equal to other causes of mind-wandering, contrary to your claim. A phone also obstructs large portions of the road from your view when you're using it.

hbosch 12y ago
> I'm going to speculate that driving is such an activity that doesn't require constant attention... Stop there. What would lead you to this speculation? Of course driving requires constant attention and care, the full time you are behind the wheel of an automobile. You're piloting a 2 ton machine made of whirling metal and filled with flammable liquid traveling at high speeds, usually within less than a meter of someone else doing the same. There is never a good reason to divert attention from the task of driving while you are driving. Full stop.
- goblin89 12y ago
  > Stop there. What would lead you to this speculation? First, I should've put “constant and full attention” there. My phrasing was off. As to why I came to this conclusion: 1. People often ride for a few hours without breaks. My assumption is that it's not possible to pay constant and full attention throughout this time—our minds are bound to wander. 2. The pattern I usually observe is when the driver, depending on road situation, varies the degree of attention they pay to the driving. At one time they're driving relaxedly and multitasking (talking to a passenger or someone on the phone—by definition they're not paying their full attention at this time), while at another they're more or less concentrated on the road. Disclaimer—I don't myself drive a car, but I often observe people driving. I've observed both experienced drivers who drive frequently and more beginning drivers, the pattern described under (2) is the same. Update: the comments here, coupled with my observations, make me believe—roughly—that a) drivers don't (can't) pay their full and constant attention to the road, and b) many are in denial of (a).
  - li-ch 12y ago
    So maybe your should learn driving a car first. I agree that paying full attention while driving is definitely the hard thing to do, but it is also the right thing to do.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - untog 12y ago
    Peak Hacker News/Silicon Valley: I have no idea how this system works, in fact, I've never used it. But I'm going to speculate on how it can be improved anyway.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - OGC 12y ago
    > I don't myself drive a car, but I often observe people driving. Please, shut up.
  - omegaham 12y ago
    > Disclaimer—I don't myself drive a car, but I often observe people driving. I've observed both experienced drivers who drive frequently and more beginning drivers, the pattern described under (2) is the same. When you're driving without distractions, sure, your mind wanders. You're thinking about a date tonight, or that jerk at work, or whatever. But as soon as your eyes pick up something of interest, like an exit sign, another driver, or a bad situation up ahead, you can immediately focus exclusively on the road. You can do this pretty quickly Similarly, when you're carrying on a conversation with someone, the other person will generally quiet down as soon as the situation changes. When you're on a cell phone, that changes. You're paying much, much more attention to a cell phone conversation than you are to someone sitting next to you because you have to listen harder. Not only that, the conversation is independent of the driving situation. Most people will not tell the guy on the phone with them to shut up; they'll just try to carry on the conversation. Even worse, a lot of people aren't paying enough attention to the road to realize that the situation requires more attention and that they need to put down the phone. This causes accidents. Finally, texting is the worst - you're literally taking your eyes off the road to send a message.
cheepin 12y ago
One of the problems is that whatever you happen to be focusing on, you also have to be able to react quickly to potential hazards. I'm pretty sure (guessing) that being not particularly focused on the road is still significantly better than being focused on a mobile phone/Navdy. I've read the literature on multitasking while driving. Texting is one of the worst. Talking on the phone comes somewhere in the middle (hands free or not doesn't seem to matter), but even talking to passengers has a measurable decrease in safety. The problem is that people, as a whole, are willing to bear quite a bit of risk in order to indulge in their distractions, but their behavior additionally forces those around them to bear some of the risk as well. I agree that self-driving cars are a huge way forward for safety, but in the meantime it makes sense to minimize human error.
- goblin89 12y ago
  > One of the problems is that whatever you happen to be focusing on, you also have to be able to react quickly to potential hazards. True. From my anecdotal observation the reason why talking over mobile phone is dangerous (while talking to a passenger is not) seems to be social norms—immediately cutting off the conversation to focus on the road doesn't seem like an acceptable thing to do, and we avoid doing this unless absolutely necessary. For a more responsible driver, this ‘absolutely necessary’ threshold is pretty low—as it should be—but such people seem to be rare.
dirtyaura 12y ago
First, road accidents are are among top 10 causes of deaths in the world, so this isn't a small matter. Second, there is research that shows that dividing your attention just between driving and talking can cause a significant reduction of reaction speed. Driving safely is not monotonous activity. Of course, if your car is crawling in a LA traffic jam, accidents are mostly non-fatal, but when you are driving 100km/h, cars are dangerous objects.
- atmosx 12y ago
  I believe that accidents caused by distracting devices are only a small % (really small) of this trend. The huge % of car accidents is because of alcohol abuse.
  - dirtyaura 12y ago
    If I recall correctly, distracted driving is the main cause for around 20% of the fatal accidents in the US. Drunk driving is around 40%.
    - atmosx 12y ago
      If it's as high as 20% I'm all wrong, sorry. Was not able to find any hard-data (paper) though.
- aianus 12y ago
  Driving safely on an empty freeway at 100km/h is one of the most monotonous things I can think of. Hell, if it's a straight flat section of road you are literally doing nothing except trying to stay alert in case something changes. The human brain (or at least mine) is not good at staying in a focused hyper-aware state for a long period of time while nothing's happening.
brown9-2 12y ago
Why speculate? It's not like no one researches this stuff.
Yxven 12y ago
Your speculation is mostly right. Our brains are pretty good at automating repetitive tasks such as driving, so most drivers regularly don't pay complete attention. The trouble is our brains primarily adapt to repeated stimuli eg driving in good conditions. Since no one spends most of their time driving narrowly avoiding accidents, that activity isn't one the brain can learn to automate ( well, maybe it's possible with a realistic driving simulator), so dangerous driving requires everyone's full attention. Since we don't usually have advanced warning of when dangerous driving will happen, the best we can do is spend as much time as possible paying attention to road conditions. Studies have found hands-free phones are just as dangerous. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hands-free-phones-just-as-risky-research-shows/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hands-free-phones-just-as-risky-...
- mrexroad 12y ago
  this may get me down-voted, but i tend to drive faster and more aggressively than, uh say, my parent's would like me to [1]. when i'm driving this way, i'm fully engaged and almost always "in the zone." i constantly work towards a better position and continuously work to predict actions of all cars around me and the consequent reactions of other cars to that action, as well as any reactions i'd make at any point. my mental model of traffic is largely based on fluid dynamics, w/ hooke's law (springs) thrown in for stop/go traffic. i often joke w/ my wife that if there were an olympic event for navigating through traffic, i'd at least qualify for the team. while risks are greater than going 65 in a 65 and not changing lanes, i'm never ever reckless. some may disagree, but b/c of the heightened level of engagement, i do consider my self far safer than other cars on the road who commute home, thinking about work and largely disengaged. day dreaming? can't. texting, etc? cant. drinking coffee? can't. fwiw, i've always driven a car with a manual transmission, and i do feel it's a variable in lower levels of driver disengagement. i've never had an accident or ticket while driving in this manner. driver disengagement is the problem, whether caused by a physical, visual, or cognitive distraction. the goal shouldn't be weighting how dangerous these various devices are, it should be on how to ensure drivers are engaged to a point where they can take over from auto-pilot (repetitive aspect) when something goes wrong. [1] i'm not a kid, i have many kids of my own, just trying to avoid quantification of driving.

hbosch 12y ago

> I'm going to speculate that driving is such an activity that doesn't require constant attention... Stop there. What would lead you to this speculation? Of course driving requires constant attention and care, the full time you are behind the wheel of an automobile. You're piloting a 2 ton machine made of whirling metal and filled with flammable liquid traveling at high speeds, usually within less than a meter of someone else doing the same. There is never a good reason to divert attention from the task of driving while you are driving. Full stop.

goblin89 12y ago
> Stop there. What would lead you to this speculation? First, I should've put “constant and full attention” there. My phrasing was off. As to why I came to this conclusion: 1. People often ride for a few hours without breaks. My assumption is that it's not possible to pay constant and full attention throughout this time—our minds are bound to wander. 2. The pattern I usually observe is when the driver, depending on road situation, varies the degree of attention they pay to the driving. At one time they're driving relaxedly and multitasking (talking to a passenger or someone on the phone—by definition they're not paying their full attention at this time), while at another they're more or less concentrated on the road. Disclaimer—I don't myself drive a car, but I often observe people driving. I've observed both experienced drivers who drive frequently and more beginning drivers, the pattern described under (2) is the same. Update: the comments here, coupled with my observations, make me believe—roughly—that a) drivers don't (can't) pay their full and constant attention to the road, and b) many are in denial of (a).
- li-ch 12y ago
  So maybe your should learn driving a car first. I agree that paying full attention while driving is definitely the hard thing to do, but it is also the right thing to do.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- untog 12y ago
  Peak Hacker News/Silicon Valley: I have no idea how this system works, in fact, I've never used it. But I'm going to speculate on how it can be improved anyway.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- OGC 12y ago
  > I don't myself drive a car, but I often observe people driving. Please, shut up.
- omegaham 12y ago
  > Disclaimer—I don't myself drive a car, but I often observe people driving. I've observed both experienced drivers who drive frequently and more beginning drivers, the pattern described under (2) is the same. When you're driving without distractions, sure, your mind wanders. You're thinking about a date tonight, or that jerk at work, or whatever. But as soon as your eyes pick up something of interest, like an exit sign, another driver, or a bad situation up ahead, you can immediately focus exclusively on the road. You can do this pretty quickly Similarly, when you're carrying on a conversation with someone, the other person will generally quiet down as soon as the situation changes. When you're on a cell phone, that changes. You're paying much, much more attention to a cell phone conversation than you are to someone sitting next to you because you have to listen harder. Not only that, the conversation is independent of the driving situation. Most people will not tell the guy on the phone with them to shut up; they'll just try to carry on the conversation. Even worse, a lot of people aren't paying enough attention to the road to realize that the situation requires more attention and that they need to put down the phone. This causes accidents. Finally, texting is the worst - you're literally taking your eyes off the road to send a message.

cheepin 12y ago

One of the problems is that whatever you happen to be focusing on, you also have to be able to react quickly to potential hazards. I'm pretty sure (guessing) that being not particularly focused on the road is still significantly better than being focused on a mobile phone/Navdy. I've read the literature on multitasking while driving. Texting is one of the worst. Talking on the phone comes somewhere in the middle (hands free or not doesn't seem to matter), but even talking to passengers has a measurable decrease in safety. The problem is that people, as a whole, are willing to bear quite a bit of risk in order to indulge in their distractions, but their behavior additionally forces those around them to bear some of the risk as well. I agree that self-driving cars are a huge way forward for safety, but in the meantime it makes sense to minimize human error.

goblin89 12y ago
> One of the problems is that whatever you happen to be focusing on, you also have to be able to react quickly to potential hazards. True. From my anecdotal observation the reason why talking over mobile phone is dangerous (while talking to a passenger is not) seems to be social norms—immediately cutting off the conversation to focus on the road doesn't seem like an acceptable thing to do, and we avoid doing this unless absolutely necessary. For a more responsible driver, this ‘absolutely necessary’ threshold is pretty low—as it should be—but such people seem to be rare.

dirtyaura 12y ago

First, road accidents are are among top 10 causes of deaths in the world, so this isn't a small matter. Second, there is research that shows that dividing your attention just between driving and talking can cause a significant reduction of reaction speed. Driving safely is not monotonous activity. Of course, if your car is crawling in a LA traffic jam, accidents are mostly non-fatal, but when you are driving 100km/h, cars are dangerous objects.

atmosx 12y ago
I believe that accidents caused by distracting devices are only a small % (really small) of this trend. The huge % of car accidents is because of alcohol abuse.
- dirtyaura 12y ago
  If I recall correctly, distracted driving is the main cause for around 20% of the fatal accidents in the US. Drunk driving is around 40%.
  - atmosx 12y ago
    If it's as high as 20% I'm all wrong, sorry. Was not able to find any hard-data (paper) though.
aianus 12y ago
Driving safely on an empty freeway at 100km/h is one of the most monotonous things I can think of. Hell, if it's a straight flat section of road you are literally doing nothing except trying to stay alert in case something changes. The human brain (or at least mine) is not good at staying in a focused hyper-aware state for a long period of time while nothing's happening.

brown9-2 12y ago

Why speculate? It's not like no one researches this stuff.

Yxven 12y ago

Your speculation is mostly right. Our brains are pretty good at automating repetitive tasks such as driving, so most drivers regularly don't pay complete attention. The trouble is our brains primarily adapt to repeated stimuli eg driving in good conditions. Since no one spends most of their time driving narrowly avoiding accidents, that activity isn't one the brain can learn to automate ( well, maybe it's possible with a realistic driving simulator), so dangerous driving requires everyone's full attention. Since we don't usually have advanced warning of when dangerous driving will happen, the best we can do is spend as much time as possible paying attention to road conditions. Studies have found hands-free phones are just as dangerous. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hands-free-phones-just-as-risky-research-shows/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hands-free-phones-just-as-risky-...

mrexroad 12y ago
this may get me down-voted, but i tend to drive faster and more aggressively than, uh say, my parent's would like me to [1]. when i'm driving this way, i'm fully engaged and almost always "in the zone." i constantly work towards a better position and continuously work to predict actions of all cars around me and the consequent reactions of other cars to that action, as well as any reactions i'd make at any point. my mental model of traffic is largely based on fluid dynamics, w/ hooke's law (springs) thrown in for stop/go traffic. i often joke w/ my wife that if there were an olympic event for navigating through traffic, i'd at least qualify for the team. while risks are greater than going 65 in a 65 and not changing lanes, i'm never ever reckless. some may disagree, but b/c of the heightened level of engagement, i do consider my self far safer than other cars on the road who commute home, thinking about work and largely disengaged. day dreaming? can't. texting, etc? cant. drinking coffee? can't. fwiw, i've always driven a car with a manual transmission, and i do feel it's a variable in lower levels of driver disengagement. i've never had an accident or ticket while driving in this manner. driver disengagement is the problem, whether caused by a physical, visual, or cognitive distraction. the goal shouldn't be weighting how dangerous these various devices are, it should be on how to ensure drivers are engaged to a point where they can take over from auto-pilot (repetitive aspect) when something goes wrong. [1] i'm not a kid, i have many kids of my own, just trying to avoid quantification of driving.