16 ms·

Standard Markdown Is Now Common Markdown

263 points by edavis 12y ago

bobbles 12y ago
* We didn't get a response so we assume its OK Seems like a pretty big assumption to me. Good change though
- vulf 12y ago
  Based on the history of communication with Gruber, they should probably assume no reply means it's NOT okay... but then no progress would be made, ever.
- Kylekramer 12y ago
  Probably mistaken assumption given Gruber's "new syntax, new name" request: https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 Personally I think it is a fair compromise.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > * We didn't get a response so we assume its OK No such assumption is stated. They decided to honor Gruber's specific requests (stop using the Standard Markup name, kill the domain and don't redirect it, and apology) and, as a courtesy offered him the opportunity to provide feedback on a list of alternative names to use instead of the Standard Markup name. They never suggested that they took Gruber's silence as equivalent to consent, more that the silence (combined with the general shape of the names he had indicated would probably be acceptable) -- given that they aren't going to cancel the project, and they are going to immediately honor his request to stop using the old name -- leaves them no choice but to choose the new name without further input from Gruber.
  - ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
    It still has "Markdown" in the title though. Gruber's silence is not going to be considered equivalent to consent by a court if it ever gets there. It really has to stick to the letter of the license, or its invalid. I'm assuming its trademarked though, not sure about any of the details.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > Gruber's silence is not going to be considered equivalent to consent by a court if it ever gets there. I don't see what the formerly "Standard Markdown" project has done to accomodate Gruber as something done because they accepted that he had a legal claim that they were required to comply with, I see it as something that they did because they thought he made a demand that, whether or not it was mandatory, they felt it was reasonable and appropriate to comply with to the extent reasonably practical without tying things up for the project in an open-ended way. Its not clear to me that Gruber has any basis for a claim in court here: 1) Its not clear to me that the license applies at all, in that its not clear that writing an spec that abstracts and regularizes the common behavior of several programs (which may or may not be all legally derivative of the one at issue) is a non-fair-use derivative work of the program at issue under copyright law, such that a license for that program would be required, 2) Further, its not clear to me that, aside from the copyright license on markdown.pl, that markdown was ever a trademark and, if it was, that it hasn't been either abandoned or genericized. Of course, Gruber can sue and try to establish any basis for preventing the use of the name that he'd like.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
        It's clear that he has a copyright, since he's the original creator. All computer software is subject to copyright. He can even have been said to effectively police it when he ok'd github flavored markdown so he didn't abandon it or weaken the copyright. Trademarks depend, I dunno the details. Knowing that would help. The actual question is whether Markdown has indeed become so generic in programming that it no longer holds a copyright. I think, yeah, maybe, since there is a standards movement going on.
        grayclhn 12y ago
        They are in no way using his software. This is a combination of the syntax chosen by several independent markdown implementations written in several different languages (off the top of my head: Haskell (pandoc), Ruby (GitHub), probably Python (Reddit), maybe others). I don't think many people actually use Gruber's perl code.
  - jkrems 12y ago
    The license requires explicit written permission by Gruber before using "Markdown". It's not fuzzy at all about this point. He didn't okay any name like X, he said he might approve of a name similar to X. That's not permission of anything yet.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > The license requires explicit written permission by Gruber before using "Markdown". So? Even if the license is relevant to the legality of the use of the name, that has no bearing on whether or not the Common Markdown folks have assumed that Gruber's silence means consent -- they could simply disagree on the legal relevance of the license, and not see Gruber's consent as required.
    - cygx 12y ago
      Copyright law doesn't apply, and Gruber has probably lost any trademark rights when he failed to shut down the various Markdown flavours. I'm not a lawyer and also not especially familiar with the laws in the US, but my guess would be that legally, he might not have a case. Of course there are also questions of morality, but who cares about that ;)
    - frowaway001 12y ago
      They are neither using Gruber's code nor his spec, so his license doesn't matter to them.
- spankalee 12y ago
  Seems reasonable actually, based on his implicit approval of all the other Markdown project names.
- ufo 12y ago
  I didn't get that impression: > We haven't heard back after replying last night, and I'm not sure we ever will, so in the interest of moving ahead and avoiding conflict, we're immediately renaming the project to Common Markdown.
samsnelling 12y ago
Without getting a response, it still is in violation of the license, correct? http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license I bet Gruber still won't be happy, but I consider this issue squashed.
- chasing 12y ago
  > In his email John graciously indicated that he would "probably" approve a name like "Strict Markdown" or "Pedantic Markdown".
  - grayclhn 12y ago
    I obviously don't know the context in the email, but those are both slightly pejorative. "Common" isn't. "Committee-driven Markdown" might have worked :).
- cygx 12y ago
  it still is in violation of the license, correct That's arguable. More elaborate software licenses define terms like 'derivative work', but BSD-style licenses generally don't. Do open specifications count as 'products derived from this software'? There's obviously no code being shared. Legally, it's probably more of a trademark issue, and trademarks can be lost, in particular if they are not enforced and lose their distinctiveness.
  - ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
    It's not a BSD License, it's styled on it. But anyway, all of this has nothing to do with code/specifications/philosophy. It's a copyright issue.
    - cygx 12y ago
      And if trademarks are not enforced, they are lost. Anyway, I clarified my post.
  - 12y ago
NotOscarWilde 12y ago
I may be mistaken, but isn't the problem with the title containing the word "Markdown" and therefore implying "Better Markdown"? And not with the specific adjective before Markdown?
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  Given that Gruber gave "Strict Markdown" and "Pedantic Markdown" as examples of names that he would "probably" be okay with, apparently not.
  - NotOscarWilde 12y ago
    Are you sure that was meant in earnest? After all, the license [1] is clear: Neither the name “Markdown” nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission. Plus, if somebody names "specific prior written permission", saying "we haven't heard back since last night so it is okay" seems dishonest to me. [1] http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license
    - chewxy 12y ago
      Explain to me then why Gruber was okay with Github-flavoured Markdown?
      - davidcelis 12y ago
        https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507661953498890241 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507661953498890241
      - mythz 12y ago
        Gruber said in the talk show that it was a flavour of Markdown that had extensions specifically suited for Developers which had elements that wouldn't make sense to have everywhere.
      - 12y ago
ars 12y ago
John Gruber doesn't really look very good here.
- chasing 12y ago
  Yeah, this feels petty (on Gruber's part). So the whole issue comes down to the word "Standard" versus "Common." Not the word "Markdown." And not any of this (silly) "it's supposed to be ambiguous" argument. Done and done, I suppose. Oh, and it's the "don't redirect standardmarkdown.com" bit that really strikes me as juvenile, for some reason.
  - smackfu 12y ago
    Gruber didn't agree to "Common" in any way.
    - chasing 12y ago
      True, but he offered two possible options, both of which used "Markdown." So it apparently wasn't the word "Markdown" that was the issue.
  - manicdee 12y ago
    The whole issue comes down to laying a claim on Markdown.
- tvon 12y ago
  Gruber certainly doesn't look like he did everything he could or really much of anything until after it was announced. That said, to take something that is not your original work and to declare it "Standard" or even "Common" is a massive faux pas in my view. It is not yours, it is not your place to declare your variant to be either standard or common. Especially when practically nobody has heard of if.
  - throwaway2048 12y ago
    Can you truely own an idea or concept? What makes it yours? Creating it?
personZ 12y ago
Why not just do something completely original and get away from this mess? And by original, I include the concept of using traditional ASCII markups. For instance, doing this (asterisks) for emphasis long preceded Markdown. As did _this_. As did -this- and various other ASCII markings. None of those are innovations of markdown, or are they inventions of John Gruber, and their intention is directly paralleled in HTML. Beyond that...the link mechanism of Markdown is and always has been pretty weak, and outside of that it's pretty marginal grounds.
- scrollaway 12y ago
  Do you really think it is appropriate, or polite, to ask "Why not just do something completely different to what you've been working on for over two years"?
  - personZ 12y ago
    Yes, I do think it's appropriate. Further, this discussion is among the participants of HN -- it isn't for the edification or entertainment of any subjects. There's a name and namespace collision that is causing enormous ill will. Further, as much as it's a "standard" it's a half-baked standard on most sites, many simply utilizing what people already traditionally did for ASCII decoration.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - Isofarro 12y ago
    It doesn't need to be called "Markdown" to justify what they've invested their time in over the last few years. Changing to a non-Markdown name doesn't invalidate their 2-year effort of creating a spec, unit tests and implementation of a human-readable text format that can be rendered as HTML. A name change doesn't change the fundamental and substantial part of their work.
- egypturnash 12y ago
  What's weak about [link text](http://example.com/foobar.html http://example.com/foobar.html)? It's succinct to type and store, and human-readable as plain text to boot. Markdown's kind of taking over from BBCode as a standard for non-html markup, especially as used in comment boxes. [Gruber's original post](http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-flavored-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-flavored-markdown/) notes that the working group for Markdown II: The Markdownening included people from Github, StackExchange, and Reddit, which all use Markdown for formatting their comments. So, would you rather standardize what's emerged as the standard, and have umpty-million comment boxes keep on working pretty much the same, or make Yet Another Standard that may indeed be superior but is used nowhere? (Admittedly if the sites involved in this decided to switch to New Lightweight Markup Language at once they'd probably change the habits of a ton of people pretty quicky.)
josephwegner 12y ago
I've thought for a long while that Jeff Atwood was a bit egotistical - I've mostly kept it to myself, but this really takes the cake. There's a few key things you need to have to properly apologize[1]: - a detailed account of the situation - acknowledgement of the hurt or damage done - taking responsibility for the situation - recognition of your role in the event - a statement of regret - asking for forgiveness - a promise that it won't happen again - a form of restitution whenever possible Most of those things aren't there. And, most notably, Jeff spent the majority of this post explaining why he wasn't at fault. That may be a fair opinion, but keep your ego to yourself - don't post an apology if you don't mean it, and don't act like this fulfills Gruber's request just because you put it on the internet. Furthermore, Gruber is right. He has a license on the name Markdown[2] - the name is not up for grabs. And the name "Standard Markdown" very directly implies that the rest of the "flavors" of Markdown are wrong. I would say "Common Markdown" is no better - it implies that all other flavors of Markdown are uncommon. If Jeff really had any intention of making things right, the least he could have done was wait more than a day to hear back from Gruber - it's not like this is really a time-sensitive matter. [1] http://www.perfectapology.com/how-to-say-im-sorry.html http://www.perfectapology.com/how-to-say-im-sorry.html [2] http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license
- hoodoof 12y ago
  Yes I can see you've carried a passive aggressive resentment of Jeff for a while and now you've found a way to comprehensively express it thank you. Even with footnotes to back up your correctness. This entire topic just isn't important.
- voyou 12y ago
  "He has a license on the name Markdown" No, he doesn't. He has copyright on something, and he provides licenses to that copyright material on certain conditions, which include the use of the name "Markdown". But if you're not using his copyright, you don't have to get permission from him, so what he thinks about your use of the term "Markdown" isn't legally relevant.
  - 12y ago
easyfrag 12y ago
This is worse. The complaint about Standard Markdown was that it appeared to be hijacking the existing "brand" in order to present itself as the definitive version. One definition of "Common" means prevalent and it seems to me that this word was picked not to solve the above problem but to get around it by making Gruber look like a dick for objecting again to the same problem. Ironically, a second definition of "common" is "showing a lack of taste."
- kemayo 12y ago
  In fairness, given the people backing this I'd imagine that it'll very quickly be the most-common implementation of Markdown in use. I mean, reddit and stack overflow are both involved.
  - smackfu 12y ago
    Reddit gets mentioned a lot, but I barely ever see Markdown there beyond the very basics. Link syntax is probably the only distinctive "Markdown" thing.
    - kemayo 12y ago
      You're right -- I very much doubt that even a tiny percentage of reddit's users know that they're using Markdown (it's mentioned as an aside in the "formatting help" section). Plus, of course, it's only a limited subset of Markdown allowed there. Nonetheless, a tiny percentage of reddit users who know how to use the formatting still likely represents a majority of the set of people who know about Markdown formatting.
    - glomph 12y ago
      I find it infuriating on reddit. The fact it follows markdown indentation rules is completely unintuitive to someone who hasn't read the markdown specification. Given how little people actually want to do complicated formatting I think markdown is actually the wrong choice for reddit.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
spicyj 12y ago
Out of the possible names listed in that post, only "Community Markdown" sounds to me like a truly unofficial name; the others all seem to claim some degree of authority over the entire Markdown brand.
- dj-wonk 12y ago
  Community Markdown would imply some kind of community governance, which does not seem to be the case. Common Markdown seems to be the creation of self-selected, let's-do-something kind of people. I'm fine with that. So, "Mutiny Markdown" might be better.
  - Kalium 12y ago
    Mutiny implies that they took it over from someone who was owed some kind of loyalty. "Salvaged Markdown", maybe.
    - dj-wonk 12y ago
      Haha. To run with that, how about "Selvage Markdown": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selvage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selvage > The selvages keep the fabric from unraveling or fraying.
      - Kalium 12y ago
        It's perfect!
callum85 12y ago
> 1. Rename the project. OK. > 2. Shut down the standardmarkdown.com domain, and don't redirect it. Don't redirect it? Seriously? > 3. Apologize. This guy is actually a prick. EDIT: OK that was unfair. If I was in Gruber's position, maybe I'd be angry, and maybe I would have demanded an apology; it doesn't make him a prick. But the "don't redirect" thing seems petty.
- smackfu 12y ago
  Redirecting it means it will stay a thing forever. Not redirecting a day old domain means the name will be forgotten in a week.
  - ProAm 12y ago
    Especially something that is only 3 days old, people will learn the new name fast enough
- shard972 12y ago
  > Don't redirect it? Seriously? To what? > This guy is actually a prick. That escalated quickly.
  - MCRed 12y ago
    But who escalated it? Gruber spent a few hours many years ago, and hasn't bothered to incorporate changes in open source tradition, leaving Markdown a half implemented mess. These people picked it up, and rather renaming it (which they should have done, but which also would have resulted in a tirade from gruber) they kept his name. Que tirade from gruber. That's where the quick escalation happened.
    - smackfu 12y ago
      A private email "tirade" which is showing some restraint when you have as big a blog audience as Daring Fireball.
    - tptacek 12y ago
mafro 12y ago
Gruber wasn't interested in playing ball a few years back, so why not fork, rename, improve, and forget the old v0.1 version? If this utopian standard really is the best, then it will win market share by that virtue.
JBiserkov 12y ago
- We worked for 2 years - then we wrote him and waited for 2... weeks! - we got no response so we went ahead... and he was mad - we wrote back... and waited A. Whole. Day. - we got no response, so we are going ahead... - what could possibly go wrong?!
- grayclhn 12y ago
  IIRC, there were attempts at communication before the 2 years of work.
  - chipotle_coyote 12y ago
    I don't think there was much. There were a couple grumpy tweets exchanged and blog posts written. But from reading Atwood's own posts on the subject, the timeline appears to run: complain Markdown needs a standard; learn Gruber isn't enthusiastic about that; work on a standard in secret for two years anyway; at the end of the two years let him know that you plan to release it (and I'm really curious what was said here, because if he'd said no after they'd put in two years, what was the plan, exactly?); take his failure to respond to your (apparently single) email in two weeks as implicit permission; go ahead and do it anyway; propose a new slightly-changed name when a shitstorm erupts; take Gruber's failure to respond to email about the name change in a single day as implicit approval. I'm down with the idea of developers getting together and forming a common standard for Markdown implementations if they want to do so, but Atwood & Company have consciously and deliberately thumbed their nose at Gruber through this whole process. They could have just called it "Plain Text Markup" and explained in the first paragraph that yes, it's Markdown with all the ambiguities taken out. Hell, they could have called it "PTM: The Standardized Markdown Specification." They could have even called it "Pandoc-Flavored Markdown," which AFAICT is (mostly) what it is. But "Standard Markdown" came across as we are taking control of Markdown over your objections and the way they developed and announced it greatly amplifies that reading. I'm not convinced "Common Markdown" is much of an improvement, and the "Well, we're pretty sure this will make John happy even though we didn't actually wait for his response" definitely doesn't help.
    - 12y ago
semisight 12y ago
I agree with the majority here--Atwood's reaction complies with the word of the request, but not the spirit of it. On Twitter, Gruber says that he's opposed to the naming because it restricts markdown [1]. Aka, valid markdown from Gruber's markdown processor may not always compile on Common Markdown. Honestly, this seems pretty reasonable to me. I also don't think that the Common Markdown implementors gave Gruber a sufficient amount of time to respond: "We haven't heard back after replying last night, and I'm not sure we ever will..." (emphasis mine). Last night? This is one of Gruber's most famous projects, and you're giving him hours to respond? Honestly, I think they're going about this the wrong way. This group has people at both Stack Overflow, Reddit, and Github, three of the most prominent users of Markdown. Why not rename their version completely? It would eliminate the possibility of future conflict (which IMO is almost guaranteed). They don't need the name recognition--Markdown has needed this for a while, and I think it will be adopted fairly quickly. As for "new" names, how about: * ReMD (pronounced "remedy"): fairly standard programming naming convention--adding "Re" as a prefix. Also easy to Google. * Vernacular: Longer, less common word. Good luck to Atwood and Co.. I really do hope they find a way to keep the project going. [1] https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665
- dj-wonk 12y ago
  Good commentary, but renaming it entirely seems a bit strong to me. It is, or intends to be, a better spec'ced version of Markdown.
  - semisight 12y ago
    I think those are two different issues. Gruber has a legal and moral right to ask the Common Markdown maintainers to change names. The easiest thing is just to not have a name with Markdown in it. I don't disagree that it is still mostly Markdown. I do understand the Gruber complaint about it not being a strict superset. I see it as similar to C/C++. Not all C code is valid C++ code--they have diverged. No one would deny that they have a very closely shared heritage.
    - 12y ago
daigoba66 12y ago
Why has Gruber never registered, claimed or enforced a trademark before? I suppose this is the mess that can happen when you don't register or at least publically claim your marks. http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/register.jsp http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/register.jsp
- e12e 12y ago
  Right, so in order to register a trademark that is valid for the whole web, you'd need to file an international trademark following "the Madrid" protocol (eg:[1]). I quote: "Processing time in each country may vary, but is not normally longer than 18 months. The reason for this is that the regulations regarding the Madrid Protocol stipulate that national authorities have only 18 months in which to refuse registration." Sounds like a lot of bureaucracy just to avoid having others dilute a simple technology concept like "a certain flavour of plain-text markup". [1] https://www.patentstyret.no/en/Trademarks/International-trademarks/International-registration/ https://www.patentstyret.no/en/Trademarks/International-trad...
e1ven 12y ago
As an outside observer, it's somewhat amusing to look at these posts with a bit of kremlinology, and try to guess how it all played out. It feels (to me), like the CommonMarkdown folk are somewhat frustrated with Gruber.. While he created the initial spec for the format, he hasn't been interested in it for years, and they feel someone needs to own/control it. By calling the new spec Standard (or common) Markdown, they're implying that they're the rightful team in charge of defining the format, what is/isn't compatible, and how to verify it. They're treating Gruber very carefully - Giving him Cameos and token references, but not taking his views seriously. It reminds me a little of Stan Lee in the new Marvel movies - He's a quirky old uncle, not someone who would actually make decisions on the ground. For example - The CommonMarkdown team say they've been working on this for 2 years, but only sent the current name to Gruber two weeks ago - When he didn't reply, they pushed forward anyway. His original license had asked that people don't use the name Markdown for derived works, but this seems to have been ignored. They also felt that he wasn't a modern or relevant user of Markdown - The team seems focused on people who are using Markdown as a commenting format, more than the authoring format Gruber uses it as. My guess is that releasing publicly was a forcing function - The team didn't have a response from Gruber, and didn't know if or when they'd get one. The quote "I assure you that we did not choose the name to make you, or anyone else, angry." seems particularly telling - They didn't write that "We thought this would be OK", or "We thought you'd like this".. Just that they didn't do it with a deliberate goal of making any specific person angry. This seems like a low bar ;) After they released earlier this week, my guess is that the blowback was somewhat frustrating. They had worked for years on trying to standardize the format, but all anyone was focusing on was the name! Gruber asked them to shut it down, but (I'm guessing) wasn't interested in an in-depth dialog. Since they still want to proceed with the project, and (again guessing) still want to be viewed as the default/standard version, they've renamed their project to "Common Markdown". While they don't have any particular permission for this name either, it has many of the same connotations, but isn't the exact same name. My supposition is that they're betting that since they've now "acquiesced", and changed the name, Gruber will seem unreasonable if he continues to push against them. Despite having no assurance that the new name is any less objectionable, this lets them concede, and move to PlanB, without risking having to move to a new name altogether. In any event, as someone without a dog in this particular race, it's somewhat interesting to watch, and try to guess what's really going on ;)
smacktoward 12y ago
They should have gone the Apple route and renamed it "BHA" ;-) (See http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/butt-head-astronomer.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/butt-head-astronomer.ht... if you don't get the reference)
- MCRed 12y ago
  Gruber isn't an astronomer. Or did you mean "alcoholic"? BHB doesn't have quite the right ring to it, and he's not much of a blogger either. He's the Paris Hilton of the tech world. Well, that's not fair to Paris Hilton whose much more of an entrepreneur. But what would you have called her profession when she was merely famous for being famous?
smilekzs 12y ago
I suppose the name is the least issue now -- as long as the big sites starts adopting it (hey it's still 99.9% markdown anyway), no single person could easily stop the standard itself from proliferating. Instead I'd like to see more progress on formalizing this and further eliminating corner cases.
kristiandupont 12y ago
What a show! I have to say that this sounds a little bit like a non-apology ("I'm sorry the name is so infuriating") and I do think John Gruber is right that the name chosen was a bit rude. However, Gruber's response or lack thereof comes off as really arrogant to me. I wonder if there is some personal history that we are not aware of? The "you say jump, I say how high?" tweet struck me as an overly aggressive response to what seemed to me a reasonable request back in the day.
john2x 12y ago
I think their biggest mistake was assuming Gruber would react professionally/maturely.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
pornel 12y ago
I find similarity with W3C/WHATWG striking: • The top implementors were frustrated with an old, vague spec that doesn't specify error handling. • The original owner had stopped developing the spec, and the spec fails to describe new extensions and de-facto standards that have emerged since. • The implementors wrote a new, much more complete spec from scratch under a name that implies taking ownership. • And then there's a childish fight about forking.
- gsnedders 12y ago
  The WHATWG didn't publish any spec entitled "HTML5" (or anything including "HTML") until after the W3C (new) HTML WG was chartered and underway, with a document based on the WHATWG one. It was, for years, entitled "Web Applications 1.0".
  - oblio 12y ago
    And did anyone actually call it "Web Applications 1.0"?
    - gsnedders 12y ago
      No, not really. It ended up including a note saying something along the lines of "this spec is commonly referred to as 'HTML5'"!
gojomo 12y ago
I'd have gone with something more whimsical, like perhaps: "Maarkdown: the extra 'a' is for 'actively maintained'." "Marrkdown: the extra 'r' is for 're-specified'." "Mnarkdown: the silent 'n' is a mnemonic for 'non-ambiguous'."
dj-wonk 12y ago
In the light of recent events, I have some name idea suggestions: * Showdown Markdown * Mutiny Markdown * Post Markdown
- grayclhn 12y ago
  "Template Markdown" for the pandoc roots
scythe 12y ago
The somewhat common standard in trademark law (which I am uneducated about) is "use it or lose it" (I know five words of trademark law...) -- Gruber hasn't really used it, so he loses it. Is it fair? I think Wittgenstein would call it fair. If "Markdown" in popular usage doesn't refer to a Perl program by John Gruber but to a formatting mechanism in use on reddit and github, then Markdown is a formatting mechanism in use on StackExchange et alii in the current language-game. If the majority of Markdown users were using Markdown.pl and/or any other software or system promulgated by John Gruber, he has a case. What we do know is that reddit and github have called their systems -- and various extensions, like github's syntax highlighting -- "Markdown" for years, without so much as a peep. I think "Standardized Markdown" might be a little more accurate, possibly easier on the creator... ...but I also suspect that some part of Gruber's annoyance relates to his not being included at all in the initial discussions. Was it really reasonable to work on this project for "two years" (does it take two years to write a ten-page standard?) without sincerely reaching out to the initial author? For the most part, the developers of $qualifier Markdown clarified syntactic ambiguities and added a slightly less painful code-block syntax. Most of the "heavy lifting" in this format was done by John Gruber, so I can appreciate his annoyance even if I disagree.
- plorkyeran 12y ago
  People have reached out to Gruber about fixing the ambiguities and making a better spec many times, and his response has consistently been that he has no intention of ever fixing any of the bugs in markdown.pl and that he views the ambiguous syntax as a feature.
batbomb 12y ago
Let's see if I got this right: GML -> SGML -> HTML -> XML Gruber takes the word markup, takes a (slight) new spin on the name markup and and calls it the opposite of markup (markdown). He now owns. Gruber gets mad when someone wants to extend markdown to be a generalized/common/standard version of itself, as has happened many times in history, because the name isn't differentiated itself enough. How about just changing it to: pukram markram unmarkup markforward markback markright rightmark markit nwodkram grandmarky markymark (Note: I think Common/Standard Markdown is just fine)
Keyframe 12y ago
I can't tell if it's intentional or not, but it seems to me this drama is artificial in its nature. A PR move, a good PR move. People now know about 'dialect formerly known as standard markdown' due to drama involved (mostly) and have taken note of it. Just by taking a glance you can tell it's a better option to use if you use md in any capacity. They could've called it blarblargh or whatever and it would still have a good reach and growth, but not an initial exposition as it has with drama. Good move, a bit manipulative, but good move.
- coldtea 12y ago
  Thanks, mr. conspiracy theory, but no, this is perfectly normal. The people behind the new Markdown standard (Jeff, GitHub etc) have access to millions of developers and users and can advertise this to high heaven without any Gruber-drama needed. If anything, the drama could be an impediment to adoption (e.g concerning legal status etc). Definetely not a PR move at all.
Keyframe 12y ago
I can't tell if it's intentional or not, but it seems to me this drama is artificial in its nature. A PR move, a good PR move. People now know about 'dialect formerly known as standard markdown' due to drama involved (mostly) and have taken note of it. Just by taking a glance you can tell it's a better option to use if you use md in any capacity. They could've called it blarblargh or whatever and it would still have a good reach and growth, but not an initial exposition as it has with drama. Good move, a bit manipulative, but good move.
phpnode 12y ago
if markdown.pl had been written by some less famous person there'd have been none of this walking on eggshells, this whole thing is ridiculous.
ChikkaChiChi 12y ago
How about naming this new spec Content Markup Language (CML) and say it was "inspired by Markdown" The group has heavy backing, they could whip up parsers fairly quickly, and Markdown can be left in the dust where it's "creator" seems to want to leave it.
slm_HN 12y ago
> 1. Rename the project. Sure, how about BTM? Does that stand for Better Than Markdown? No, not at all, it's just three random letters. I'm a little amazed Gruber is so protective of "Markdown". It's a mess and it's been a mess for years. It's like meeting a guy who brags about designing the Ford Pinto gas tank, or being the comptroller at Enron.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  Except all manner of systems are built on top of it. Does he come off as a jerk in this argument? Yes, but we shouldn't belittle his previous accomplishments because of that.
AshleysBrain 12y ago
I don't get Gruber's reaction. These guys have done a huge favour for Markdown, resolving real-world compatibility problems with the first ever unambiguous spec. Surely this is a good thing? If Gruber really wanted Markdown to succeed, isn't this the right direction? If multiple independent implementations of an idea start appearing, sooner or later this is going to happen. And at that point what control can you claim to have other than the name? These guys presumably have their own code, and I'm pretty sure sites like reddit have a heavier investment in Markdown than Gruber.
Steko 12y ago
Best comment I've read on the issue, from metafilter user archagon, although I doubt most HNers will agree with it. http://www.metafilter.com/142475/Standard-flavored-Markdown#5718950 http://www.metafilter.com/142475/Standard-flavored-Markdown#... Yes, ambiguity is a feature in this case. Markdown was designed from the top down by a writer, for writers. This gives it the rare characteristic of being intuitive to understand and use, but not necessarily easy (or even unambiguously possible) to implement. The lack of a standard helps keep people honest by making them follow the spirit of the law, not the letter, as you see happening with things like HTML and CSS. In fact, I'd argue that's the entire philosophy behind Markdown: usable and understandable by ordinary humans, all the way down to the spec. (Ever try reading the C spec? It feels like you need a PhD to get anything out of it.) I'm with Gruber that Markdown is successful because of its ambiguous (read: easy-to-understand) design, not in spite of it. The proof is clearly in the pudding. My feeling is that the people running into edge cases are trying to use Markdown as some sort of replacement for HTML, not a massively simplified syntax for writing articles and pages. What I see here is a group of developers who arrogantly think that they know better than Gruber what to do with Markdown. They could have called it anything else, but they chose to make the issue political. It's juvenile, especially coming from people who we're supposed to look up to in the tech community. According to Gruber, Markdown is the hardest thing he's ever worked on. He didn't spend a week on it, the idea was not obvious, and its success was not accidental. If I was him, I'd absolutely be seeing red too..
- frowaway001 12y ago
  > Markdown is the hardest thing he's ever worked on If that's even remotely true, I hope he never touches any piece of code in his life again. For god's sake, just look at his implementation: "Hacked together after a night of binge drinking" would be the perfect description of it.
  - Steko 12y ago
    Puff your chest out all you want, call me back when you've made a bigger contribution and no longer have to hide behind 'froaway001'.
smoyer 12y ago
If Markdown is a brittle markup language, then an effort to correct the inconsistencies and contradictions should logically be called Markright.
brudgers 12y ago
Credit to Gruber for making something clever. It's just a bit late for making creditable claims of stewardship. This is as if JWZ were complaining that he wasn't consulted in regard to <blink> being left out of HTML5. Markdown isn't a regular language. The canonical documentation is written with a tiny font on a grey background, and Atwood's interest is a response to the computer science issues which arise when markdown is used on a site at the scale of StackOverflow. He's been confronting its implementation issues since at least June 2008 [1] and looking at developing a proper markdown parser since January 2010.[2] [1]: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2008/06/podcast-11/ http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2008/06/podcast-11/ [2]: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/01/podcast-79/ http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/01/podcast-79/
bch 12y ago
When I ported Markdown to mod_perl and a CMS I was working with about 9 or so years ago, I emailed John, and he indicated " just don't use the 'Markdown' name", so I choose "Makeup" (it makes things pretty). You're welcome to reuse that name @codinghorror. It seems clear to me avoiding "Markdown", whether you precede it with Vanilla, Humble, Common, Friendly, or whatever is really just a waste of time and likely to cause unnecessary tension. Makeup, man. Makeup. The name could also be your public deferential gesture to John, so you can all - Makeup.
- bch 12y ago
  Also: "What's the easiest way to make you text pretty? Apply Makeup."
- louhike 12y ago
  Just for your information, CodingHorror is just the name of the blog. The writer uses its real name: Jeff Atwood. It is therefore better to use it directly.
  - pgl 12y ago
    He also uses the Twitter handle @codinghorror.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
logn 12y ago
We haven't heard back after replying last night [...] we're immediately renaming the project [...] The project name change is already in progress Sounds like those are fighting words.
ddingus 12y ago
I would call the thing CommonMark and leave the "down" out of it. Given the improvements, it's worth a little initial ambiguity, and given those are solid, that ambiguity won't endure very long. Everybody has high happy potential, and it's up to them individually to actualize it.
lolwutf 12y ago
Have you read Gruber's tweets on the matter? He's handling this situation like a baby. His powers of getting people to read his one-line blog and other worthless content continue to amaze me.
- thaumaturgy 12y ago
  Every time someone dismisses Gruber's contributions and influence in the tech field, it makes our field look like it's populated by dickheads. Gruber's consistently had some of the best analysis on Apple (and some other aspects of the tech industry). He's been writing for over 10 years, it has made him successful, and he's been able to cultivate direct access to Apple (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-06/meet-apples-favorite-blogger http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-06/meet-apples-...) and the occasional response from Jobs himself (http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/10/steve-jobs-responds-to-iphone-sdk-complaints-intermediate-layers-produce-sub-standard-apps/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/10/steve-jobs-responds-to-ipho...). I'm with Atwood on this one, but seeing the peanut gallery make stupid and snarky comments about Gruber himself is starting to piss me off.
  - lolwutf 12y ago
    Well, I agree with you that he has some of the best analysis on Apple. But the takeaway is that his quality content represents only a drop in the ocean of his worthless one-line microthroughts and general blabbery and whining.
dmcdorman 12y ago
Haven't we seen this movie about the clash of egos and a non-standard "standard" before? It didn't end well and no one seems to have benefitted from the exerience. A rose by any other name would certainly not be a rose to the casual reader. "Smakdown" (for example) would require a Google search to inform that reader. We'd loose 1 minute to see that "it's a new standard [ forked from | based on ] "Markdown by John Gruber". Calling it a rose would mean reams of existing code that would generate errors on this new "Rose" input. Names matter when they break something. But only until we learn the new one and write new code.
th0ma5 12y ago
I thought this all derived from BBCode?
vatotemking 12y ago
John Gruber on Markdown and "standardization": https://overcast.fm/podcasts/episode/344902019595#t=4527 https://overcast.fm/podcasts/episode/344902019595#t=4527
paulannesley 12y ago
Markdown is Gruber's thing. Github Flavored Markdown means “Gruber's thing, but with some GitHub things added”; and that's what it is. Standard Markdown means “the main/real/most-widely-used Markdown”; but it's none of those things. Common Markdown means almost exactly the same thing. If Standard Markdown is not okay, neither is Common Markdown. Gruber suggested “Strict Markdown” or “Pedantic Markdown”. These names clearly describe how the project differs from Gruber's thing. This has very little to do with whether the name contains the word “Markdown”. It's about semantics; describing what this thing is. Also, prematurely calling something Standard or Common is a classic mistake.
jleader 12y ago
Many people seem to be missing something that feels important to me: the "let's spec Markdown" folks sent an email to Gruber saying "we want to call our project 'Standard Flavored Markdown'". This name was arguably analogous to "GitHub Flavored Markdown", which Gruber apparently had previously indicated he was OK with. When Gruber hadn't replied after 2 weeks, the spec folks assumed that meant he was OK with their proposed name, and went ahead and announced ... "Standard Markdown" (without the softening "Flavored"). With no advanced notice whatsoever to Gruber. I'd be pretty pissed too at being blind-sided like that. Think about the difference between "Standard Flavored Markedown" (which implies there are other flavors out there, this one is just attempting to be more standardized than others) and "Standard Markdown", which implies this is The one-and-only standard version of Markdown.
zimbatm 12y ago
Taking a pause from all the drama. AsciiDoc is really close to Markdown, is well specified and has a lot of features that are missing from MD like tables and footnotes. If you want to migrate, rename the .md files to .adoc and fix the links syntax. Github supports that format out of the box and http://asciidoctor.org/ http://asciidoctor.org/ also has browser extensions to do live rendering of your local files.
NaNaN 12y ago
I suggest "Warkdown" or "Warkup". :p Then the dictionary app may ask if you are finding Markdown/markup.
eli 12y ago
Seems like they care what Gruber says about their project, so I think they should have tried a lot harder to get feedback from him. But maybe that's just the journalist in me.
tim333 12y ago
And now it seems: Common Markdown Is Now CommonMark (http://standardmarkdown.com/ http://standardmarkdown.com/) At least that's obviously a different thing to Gruber's Markdown in a way that the other names were not.
LeicaLatte 12y ago
A dying mobile web desperately seeking attention. Going after small guys. Try doing this to Kanye! It is during times like this that creators, makers are driven to defenses like patents.
ImpressiveWebs 12y ago
I think John Gruber should change his name to Lars Ulrich. Embrace progress, don't condemn it.

263 points by edavis 12y ago

bobbles 12y ago

* We didn't get a response so we assume its OK Seems like a pretty big assumption to me. Good change though

vulf 12y ago
Based on the history of communication with Gruber, they should probably assume no reply means it's NOT okay... but then no progress would be made, ever.
Kylekramer 12y ago
Probably mistaken assumption given Gruber's "new syntax, new name" request: https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 Personally I think it is a fair compromise.
dragonwriter 12y ago
> * We didn't get a response so we assume its OK No such assumption is stated. They decided to honor Gruber's specific requests (stop using the Standard Markup name, kill the domain and don't redirect it, and apology) and, as a courtesy offered him the opportunity to provide feedback on a list of alternative names to use instead of the Standard Markup name. They never suggested that they took Gruber's silence as equivalent to consent, more that the silence (combined with the general shape of the names he had indicated would probably be acceptable) -- given that they aren't going to cancel the project, and they are going to immediately honor his request to stop using the old name -- leaves them no choice but to choose the new name without further input from Gruber.
- ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
  It still has "Markdown" in the title though. Gruber's silence is not going to be considered equivalent to consent by a court if it ever gets there. It really has to stick to the letter of the license, or its invalid. I'm assuming its trademarked though, not sure about any of the details.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > Gruber's silence is not going to be considered equivalent to consent by a court if it ever gets there. I don't see what the formerly "Standard Markdown" project has done to accomodate Gruber as something done because they accepted that he had a legal claim that they were required to comply with, I see it as something that they did because they thought he made a demand that, whether or not it was mandatory, they felt it was reasonable and appropriate to comply with to the extent reasonably practical without tying things up for the project in an open-ended way. Its not clear to me that Gruber has any basis for a claim in court here: 1) Its not clear to me that the license applies at all, in that its not clear that writing an spec that abstracts and regularizes the common behavior of several programs (which may or may not be all legally derivative of the one at issue) is a non-fair-use derivative work of the program at issue under copyright law, such that a license for that program would be required, 2) Further, its not clear to me that, aside from the copyright license on markdown.pl, that markdown was ever a trademark and, if it was, that it hasn't been either abandoned or genericized. Of course, Gruber can sue and try to establish any basis for preventing the use of the name that he'd like.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
      It's clear that he has a copyright, since he's the original creator. All computer software is subject to copyright. He can even have been said to effectively police it when he ok'd github flavored markdown so he didn't abandon it or weaken the copyright. Trademarks depend, I dunno the details. Knowing that would help. The actual question is whether Markdown has indeed become so generic in programming that it no longer holds a copyright. I think, yeah, maybe, since there is a standards movement going on.
      - grayclhn 12y ago
        They are in no way using his software. This is a combination of the syntax chosen by several independent markdown implementations written in several different languages (off the top of my head: Haskell (pandoc), Ruby (GitHub), probably Python (Reddit), maybe others). I don't think many people actually use Gruber's perl code.
- jkrems 12y ago
  The license requires explicit written permission by Gruber before using "Markdown". It's not fuzzy at all about this point. He didn't okay any name like X, he said he might approve of a name similar to X. That's not permission of anything yet.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > The license requires explicit written permission by Gruber before using "Markdown". So? Even if the license is relevant to the legality of the use of the name, that has no bearing on whether or not the Common Markdown folks have assumed that Gruber's silence means consent -- they could simply disagree on the legal relevance of the license, and not see Gruber's consent as required.
  - cygx 12y ago
    Copyright law doesn't apply, and Gruber has probably lost any trademark rights when he failed to shut down the various Markdown flavours. I'm not a lawyer and also not especially familiar with the laws in the US, but my guess would be that legally, he might not have a case. Of course there are also questions of morality, but who cares about that ;)
  - frowaway001 12y ago
    They are neither using Gruber's code nor his spec, so his license doesn't matter to them.
spankalee 12y ago
Seems reasonable actually, based on his implicit approval of all the other Markdown project names.
ufo 12y ago
I didn't get that impression: > We haven't heard back after replying last night, and I'm not sure we ever will, so in the interest of moving ahead and avoiding conflict, we're immediately renaming the project to Common Markdown.

samsnelling 12y ago

Without getting a response, it still is in violation of the license, correct? http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license I bet Gruber still won't be happy, but I consider this issue squashed.

chasing 12y ago
> In his email John graciously indicated that he would "probably" approve a name like "Strict Markdown" or "Pedantic Markdown".
- grayclhn 12y ago
  I obviously don't know the context in the email, but those are both slightly pejorative. "Common" isn't. "Committee-driven Markdown" might have worked :).
cygx 12y ago
it still is in violation of the license, correct That's arguable. More elaborate software licenses define terms like 'derivative work', but BSD-style licenses generally don't. Do open specifications count as 'products derived from this software'? There's obviously no code being shared. Legally, it's probably more of a trademark issue, and trademarks can be lost, in particular if they are not enforced and lose their distinctiveness.
- ulisesrmzroche 12y ago
  It's not a BSD License, it's styled on it. But anyway, all of this has nothing to do with code/specifications/philosophy. It's a copyright issue.
  - cygx 12y ago
    And if trademarks are not enforced, they are lost. Anyway, I clarified my post.
- 12y ago

NotOscarWilde 12y ago

I may be mistaken, but isn't the problem with the title containing the word "Markdown" and therefore implying "Better Markdown"? And not with the specific adjective before Markdown?

dragonwriter 12y ago
Given that Gruber gave "Strict Markdown" and "Pedantic Markdown" as examples of names that he would "probably" be okay with, apparently not.
- NotOscarWilde 12y ago
  Are you sure that was meant in earnest? After all, the license [1] is clear: Neither the name “Markdown” nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission. Plus, if somebody names "specific prior written permission", saying "we haven't heard back since last night so it is okay" seems dishonest to me. [1] http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license
  - chewxy 12y ago
    Explain to me then why Gruber was okay with Github-flavoured Markdown?
    - davidcelis 12y ago
      https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507661953498890241 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507661953498890241
    - mythz 12y ago
      Gruber said in the talk show that it was a flavour of Markdown that had extensions specifically suited for Developers which had elements that wouldn't make sense to have everywhere.
    - 12y ago

ars 12y ago

John Gruber doesn't really look very good here.

chasing 12y ago
Yeah, this feels petty (on Gruber's part). So the whole issue comes down to the word "Standard" versus "Common." Not the word "Markdown." And not any of this (silly) "it's supposed to be ambiguous" argument. Done and done, I suppose. Oh, and it's the "don't redirect standardmarkdown.com" bit that really strikes me as juvenile, for some reason.
- smackfu 12y ago
  Gruber didn't agree to "Common" in any way.
  - chasing 12y ago
    True, but he offered two possible options, both of which used "Markdown." So it apparently wasn't the word "Markdown" that was the issue.
- manicdee 12y ago
  The whole issue comes down to laying a claim on Markdown.
tvon 12y ago
Gruber certainly doesn't look like he did everything he could or really much of anything until after it was announced. That said, to take something that is not your original work and to declare it "Standard" or even "Common" is a massive faux pas in my view. It is not yours, it is not your place to declare your variant to be either standard or common. Especially when practically nobody has heard of if.
- throwaway2048 12y ago
  Can you truely own an idea or concept? What makes it yours? Creating it?

personZ 12y ago

Why not just do something completely original and get away from this mess? And by original, I include the concept of using traditional ASCII markups. For instance, doing this (asterisks) for emphasis long preceded Markdown. As did _this_. As did -this- and various other ASCII markings. None of those are innovations of markdown, or are they inventions of John Gruber, and their intention is directly paralleled in HTML. Beyond that...the link mechanism of Markdown is and always has been pretty weak, and outside of that it's pretty marginal grounds.

scrollaway 12y ago
Do you really think it is appropriate, or polite, to ask "Why not just do something completely different to what you've been working on for over two years"?
- personZ 12y ago
  Yes, I do think it's appropriate. Further, this discussion is among the participants of HN -- it isn't for the edification or entertainment of any subjects. There's a name and namespace collision that is causing enormous ill will. Further, as much as it's a "standard" it's a half-baked standard on most sites, many simply utilizing what people already traditionally did for ASCII decoration.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- Isofarro 12y ago
  It doesn't need to be called "Markdown" to justify what they've invested their time in over the last few years. Changing to a non-Markdown name doesn't invalidate their 2-year effort of creating a spec, unit tests and implementation of a human-readable text format that can be rendered as HTML. A name change doesn't change the fundamental and substantial part of their work.
egypturnash 12y ago
What's weak about [link text](http://example.com/foobar.html http://example.com/foobar.html)? It's succinct to type and store, and human-readable as plain text to boot. Markdown's kind of taking over from BBCode as a standard for non-html markup, especially as used in comment boxes. [Gruber's original post](http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-flavored-markdown/ http://blog.codinghorror.com/standard-flavored-markdown/) notes that the working group for Markdown II: The Markdownening included people from Github, StackExchange, and Reddit, which all use Markdown for formatting their comments. So, would you rather standardize what's emerged as the standard, and have umpty-million comment boxes keep on working pretty much the same, or make Yet Another Standard that may indeed be superior but is used nowhere? (Admittedly if the sites involved in this decided to switch to New Lightweight Markup Language at once they'd probably change the habits of a ton of people pretty quicky.)

josephwegner 12y ago

I've thought for a long while that Jeff Atwood was a bit egotistical - I've mostly kept it to myself, but this really takes the cake. There's a few key things you need to have to properly apologize[1]: - a detailed account of the situation - acknowledgement of the hurt or damage done - taking responsibility for the situation - recognition of your role in the event - a statement of regret - asking for forgiveness - a promise that it won't happen again - a form of restitution whenever possible Most of those things aren't there. And, most notably, Jeff spent the majority of this post explaining why he wasn't at fault. That may be a fair opinion, but keep your ego to yourself - don't post an apology if you don't mean it, and don't act like this fulfills Gruber's request just because you put it on the internet. Furthermore, Gruber is right. He has a license on the name Markdown[2] - the name is not up for grabs. And the name "Standard Markdown" very directly implies that the rest of the "flavors" of Markdown are wrong. I would say "Common Markdown" is no better - it implies that all other flavors of Markdown are uncommon. If Jeff really had any intention of making things right, the least he could have done was wait more than a day to hear back from Gruber - it's not like this is really a time-sensitive matter. [1] http://www.perfectapology.com/how-to-say-im-sorry.html http://www.perfectapology.com/how-to-say-im-sorry.html [2] http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/license

hoodoof 12y ago
Yes I can see you've carried a passive aggressive resentment of Jeff for a while and now you've found a way to comprehensively express it thank you. Even with footnotes to back up your correctness. This entire topic just isn't important.
voyou 12y ago
"He has a license on the name Markdown" No, he doesn't. He has copyright on something, and he provides licenses to that copyright material on certain conditions, which include the use of the name "Markdown". But if you're not using his copyright, you don't have to get permission from him, so what he thinks about your use of the term "Markdown" isn't legally relevant.
- 12y ago

easyfrag 12y ago

This is worse. The complaint about Standard Markdown was that it appeared to be hijacking the existing "brand" in order to present itself as the definitive version. One definition of "Common" means prevalent and it seems to me that this word was picked not to solve the above problem but to get around it by making Gruber look like a dick for objecting again to the same problem. Ironically, a second definition of "common" is "showing a lack of taste."

kemayo 12y ago
In fairness, given the people backing this I'd imagine that it'll very quickly be the most-common implementation of Markdown in use. I mean, reddit and stack overflow are both involved.
- smackfu 12y ago
  Reddit gets mentioned a lot, but I barely ever see Markdown there beyond the very basics. Link syntax is probably the only distinctive "Markdown" thing.
  - kemayo 12y ago
    You're right -- I very much doubt that even a tiny percentage of reddit's users know that they're using Markdown (it's mentioned as an aside in the "formatting help" section). Plus, of course, it's only a limited subset of Markdown allowed there. Nonetheless, a tiny percentage of reddit users who know how to use the formatting still likely represents a majority of the set of people who know about Markdown formatting.
  - glomph 12y ago
    I find it infuriating on reddit. The fact it follows markdown indentation rules is completely unintuitive to someone who hasn't read the markdown specification. Given how little people actually want to do complicated formatting I think markdown is actually the wrong choice for reddit.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]

spicyj 12y ago

Out of the possible names listed in that post, only "Community Markdown" sounds to me like a truly unofficial name; the others all seem to claim some degree of authority over the entire Markdown brand.

dj-wonk 12y ago
Community Markdown would imply some kind of community governance, which does not seem to be the case. Common Markdown seems to be the creation of self-selected, let's-do-something kind of people. I'm fine with that. So, "Mutiny Markdown" might be better.
- Kalium 12y ago
  Mutiny implies that they took it over from someone who was owed some kind of loyalty. "Salvaged Markdown", maybe.
  - dj-wonk 12y ago
    Haha. To run with that, how about "Selvage Markdown": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selvage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selvage > The selvages keep the fabric from unraveling or fraying.
    - Kalium 12y ago
      It's perfect!

callum85 12y ago

> 1. Rename the project. OK. > 2. Shut down the standardmarkdown.com domain, and don't redirect it. Don't redirect it? Seriously? > 3. Apologize. This guy is actually a prick. EDIT: OK that was unfair. If I was in Gruber's position, maybe I'd be angry, and maybe I would have demanded an apology; it doesn't make him a prick. But the "don't redirect" thing seems petty.

smackfu 12y ago
Redirecting it means it will stay a thing forever. Not redirecting a day old domain means the name will be forgotten in a week.
- ProAm 12y ago
  Especially something that is only 3 days old, people will learn the new name fast enough
shard972 12y ago
> Don't redirect it? Seriously? To what? > This guy is actually a prick. That escalated quickly.
- MCRed 12y ago
  But who escalated it? Gruber spent a few hours many years ago, and hasn't bothered to incorporate changes in open source tradition, leaving Markdown a half implemented mess. These people picked it up, and rather renaming it (which they should have done, but which also would have resulted in a tirade from gruber) they kept his name. Que tirade from gruber. That's where the quick escalation happened.
  - smackfu 12y ago
    A private email "tirade" which is showing some restraint when you have as big a blog audience as Daring Fireball.
  - tptacek 12y ago

mafro 12y ago

Gruber wasn't interested in playing ball a few years back, so why not fork, rename, improve, and forget the old v0.1 version? If this utopian standard really is the best, then it will win market share by that virtue.

JBiserkov 12y ago

- We worked for 2 years - then we wrote him and waited for 2... weeks! - we got no response so we went ahead... and he was mad - we wrote back... and waited A. Whole. Day. - we got no response, so we are going ahead... - what could possibly go wrong?!

grayclhn 12y ago
IIRC, there were attempts at communication before the 2 years of work.
- chipotle_coyote 12y ago
  I don't think there was much. There were a couple grumpy tweets exchanged and blog posts written. But from reading Atwood's own posts on the subject, the timeline appears to run: complain Markdown needs a standard; learn Gruber isn't enthusiastic about that; work on a standard in secret for two years anyway; at the end of the two years let him know that you plan to release it (and I'm really curious what was said here, because if he'd said no after they'd put in two years, what was the plan, exactly?); take his failure to respond to your (apparently single) email in two weeks as implicit permission; go ahead and do it anyway; propose a new slightly-changed name when a shitstorm erupts; take Gruber's failure to respond to email about the name change in a single day as implicit approval. I'm down with the idea of developers getting together and forming a common standard for Markdown implementations if they want to do so, but Atwood & Company have consciously and deliberately thumbed their nose at Gruber through this whole process. They could have just called it "Plain Text Markup" and explained in the first paragraph that yes, it's Markdown with all the ambiguities taken out. Hell, they could have called it "PTM: The Standardized Markdown Specification." They could have even called it "Pandoc-Flavored Markdown," which AFAICT is (mostly) what it is. But "Standard Markdown" came across as we are taking control of Markdown over your objections and the way they developed and announced it greatly amplifies that reading. I'm not convinced "Common Markdown" is much of an improvement, and the "Well, we're pretty sure this will make John happy even though we didn't actually wait for his response" definitely doesn't help.
  - 12y ago

semisight 12y ago

I agree with the majority here--Atwood's reaction complies with the word of the request, but not the spirit of it. On Twitter, Gruber says that he's opposed to the naming because it restricts markdown [1]. Aka, valid markdown from Gruber's markdown processor may not always compile on Common Markdown. Honestly, this seems pretty reasonable to me. I also don't think that the Common Markdown implementors gave Gruber a sufficient amount of time to respond: "We haven't heard back after replying last night, and I'm not sure we ever will..." (emphasis mine). Last night? This is one of Gruber's most famous projects, and you're giving him hours to respond? Honestly, I think they're going about this the wrong way. This group has people at both Stack Overflow, Reddit, and Github, three of the most prominent users of Markdown. Why not rename their version completely? It would eliminate the possibility of future conflict (which IMO is almost guaranteed). They don't need the name recognition--Markdown has needed this for a while, and I think it will be adopted fairly quickly. As for "new" names, how about: * ReMD (pronounced "remedy"): fairly standard programming naming convention--adding "Re" as a prefix. Also easy to Google. * Vernacular: Longer, less common word. Good luck to Atwood and Co.. I really do hope they find a way to keep the project going. [1] https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665 https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507651498692849665

dj-wonk 12y ago
Good commentary, but renaming it entirely seems a bit strong to me. It is, or intends to be, a better spec'ced version of Markdown.
- semisight 12y ago
  I think those are two different issues. Gruber has a legal and moral right to ask the Common Markdown maintainers to change names. The easiest thing is just to not have a name with Markdown in it. I don't disagree that it is still mostly Markdown. I do understand the Gruber complaint about it not being a strict superset. I see it as similar to C/C++. Not all C code is valid C++ code--they have diverged. No one would deny that they have a very closely shared heritage.
  - 12y ago

daigoba66 12y ago

Why has Gruber never registered, claimed or enforced a trademark before? I suppose this is the mess that can happen when you don't register or at least publically claim your marks. http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/register.jsp http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/register.jsp

e12e 12y ago
Right, so in order to register a trademark that is valid for the whole web, you'd need to file an international trademark following "the Madrid" protocol (eg:[1]). I quote: "Processing time in each country may vary, but is not normally longer than 18 months. The reason for this is that the regulations regarding the Madrid Protocol stipulate that national authorities have only 18 months in which to refuse registration." Sounds like a lot of bureaucracy just to avoid having others dilute a simple technology concept like "a certain flavour of plain-text markup". [1] https://www.patentstyret.no/en/Trademarks/International-trademarks/International-registration/ https://www.patentstyret.no/en/Trademarks/International-trad...

e1ven 12y ago

As an outside observer, it's somewhat amusing to look at these posts with a bit of kremlinology, and try to guess how it all played out. It feels (to me), like the CommonMarkdown folk are somewhat frustrated with Gruber.. While he created the initial spec for the format, he hasn't been interested in it for years, and they feel someone needs to own/control it. By calling the new spec Standard (or common) Markdown, they're implying that they're the rightful team in charge of defining the format, what is/isn't compatible, and how to verify it. They're treating Gruber very carefully - Giving him Cameos and token references, but not taking his views seriously. It reminds me a little of Stan Lee in the new Marvel movies - He's a quirky old uncle, not someone who would actually make decisions on the ground. For example - The CommonMarkdown team say they've been working on this for 2 years, but only sent the current name to Gruber two weeks ago - When he didn't reply, they pushed forward anyway. His original license had asked that people don't use the name Markdown for derived works, but this seems to have been ignored. They also felt that he wasn't a modern or relevant user of Markdown - The team seems focused on people who are using Markdown as a commenting format, more than the authoring format Gruber uses it as. My guess is that releasing publicly was a forcing function - The team didn't have a response from Gruber, and didn't know if or when they'd get one. The quote "I assure you that we did not choose the name to make you, or anyone else, angry." seems particularly telling - They didn't write that "We thought this would be OK", or "We thought you'd like this".. Just that they didn't do it with a deliberate goal of making any specific person angry. This seems like a low bar ;) After they released earlier this week, my guess is that the blowback was somewhat frustrating. They had worked for years on trying to standardize the format, but all anyone was focusing on was the name! Gruber asked them to shut it down, but (I'm guessing) wasn't interested in an in-depth dialog. Since they still want to proceed with the project, and (again guessing) still want to be viewed as the default/standard version, they've renamed their project to "Common Markdown". While they don't have any particular permission for this name either, it has many of the same connotations, but isn't the exact same name. My supposition is that they're betting that since they've now "acquiesced", and changed the name, Gruber will seem unreasonable if he continues to push against them. Despite having no assurance that the new name is any less objectionable, this lets them concede, and move to PlanB, without risking having to move to a new name altogether. In any event, as someone without a dog in this particular race, it's somewhat interesting to watch, and try to guess what's really going on ;)

smacktoward 12y ago

They should have gone the Apple route and renamed it "BHA" ;-) (See http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/butt-head-astronomer.html http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/butt-head-astronomer.ht... if you don't get the reference)

MCRed 12y ago
Gruber isn't an astronomer. Or did you mean "alcoholic"? BHB doesn't have quite the right ring to it, and he's not much of a blogger either. He's the Paris Hilton of the tech world. Well, that's not fair to Paris Hilton whose much more of an entrepreneur. But what would you have called her profession when she was merely famous for being famous?

smilekzs 12y ago

I suppose the name is the least issue now -- as long as the big sites starts adopting it (hey it's still 99.9% markdown anyway), no single person could easily stop the standard itself from proliferating. Instead I'd like to see more progress on formalizing this and further eliminating corner cases.

kristiandupont 12y ago

What a show! I have to say that this sounds a little bit like a non-apology ("I'm sorry the name is so infuriating") and I do think John Gruber is right that the name chosen was a bit rude. However, Gruber's response or lack thereof comes off as really arrogant to me. I wonder if there is some personal history that we are not aware of? The "you say jump, I say how high?" tweet struck me as an overly aggressive response to what seemed to me a reasonable request back in the day.

john2x 12y ago

I think their biggest mistake was assuming Gruber would react professionally/maturely.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

pornel 12y ago

I find similarity with W3C/WHATWG striking: • The top implementors were frustrated with an old, vague spec that doesn't specify error handling. • The original owner had stopped developing the spec, and the spec fails to describe new extensions and de-facto standards that have emerged since. • The implementors wrote a new, much more complete spec from scratch under a name that implies taking ownership. • And then there's a childish fight about forking.

gsnedders 12y ago
The WHATWG didn't publish any spec entitled "HTML5" (or anything including "HTML") until after the W3C (new) HTML WG was chartered and underway, with a document based on the WHATWG one. It was, for years, entitled "Web Applications 1.0".
- oblio 12y ago
  And did anyone actually call it "Web Applications 1.0"?
  - gsnedders 12y ago
    No, not really. It ended up including a note saying something along the lines of "this spec is commonly referred to as 'HTML5'"!

gojomo 12y ago

I'd have gone with something more whimsical, like perhaps: "Maarkdown: the extra 'a' is for 'actively maintained'." "Marrkdown: the extra 'r' is for 're-specified'." "Mnarkdown: the silent 'n' is a mnemonic for 'non-ambiguous'."

dj-wonk 12y ago

In the light of recent events, I have some name idea suggestions: * Showdown Markdown * Mutiny Markdown * Post Markdown

grayclhn 12y ago
"Template Markdown" for the pandoc roots

scythe 12y ago

The somewhat common standard in trademark law (which I am uneducated about) is "use it or lose it" (I know five words of trademark law...) -- Gruber hasn't really used it, so he loses it. Is it fair? I think Wittgenstein would call it fair. If "Markdown" in popular usage doesn't refer to a Perl program by John Gruber but to a formatting mechanism in use on reddit and github, then Markdown is a formatting mechanism in use on StackExchange et alii in the current language-game. If the majority of Markdown users were using Markdown.pl and/or any other software or system promulgated by John Gruber, he has a case. What we do know is that reddit and github have called their systems -- and various extensions, like github's syntax highlighting -- "Markdown" for years, without so much as a peep. I think "Standardized Markdown" might be a little more accurate, possibly easier on the creator... ...but I also suspect that some part of Gruber's annoyance relates to his not being included at all in the initial discussions. Was it really reasonable to work on this project for "two years" (does it take two years to write a ten-page standard?) without sincerely reaching out to the initial author? For the most part, the developers of $qualifier Markdown clarified syntactic ambiguities and added a slightly less painful code-block syntax. Most of the "heavy lifting" in this format was done by John Gruber, so I can appreciate his annoyance even if I disagree.

plorkyeran 12y ago
People have reached out to Gruber about fixing the ambiguities and making a better spec many times, and his response has consistently been that he has no intention of ever fixing any of the bugs in markdown.pl and that he views the ambiguous syntax as a feature.

batbomb 12y ago

Let's see if I got this right: GML -> SGML -> HTML -> XML Gruber takes the word markup, takes a (slight) new spin on the name markup and and calls it the opposite of markup (markdown). He now owns. Gruber gets mad when someone wants to extend markdown to be a generalized/common/standard version of itself, as has happened many times in history, because the name isn't differentiated itself enough. How about just changing it to: pukram markram unmarkup markforward markback markright rightmark markit nwodkram grandmarky markymark (Note: I think Common/Standard Markdown is just fine)

Keyframe 12y ago

I can't tell if it's intentional or not, but it seems to me this drama is artificial in its nature. A PR move, a good PR move. People now know about 'dialect formerly known as standard markdown' due to drama involved (mostly) and have taken note of it. Just by taking a glance you can tell it's a better option to use if you use md in any capacity. They could've called it blarblargh or whatever and it would still have a good reach and growth, but not an initial exposition as it has with drama. Good move, a bit manipulative, but good move.

coldtea 12y ago
Thanks, mr. conspiracy theory, but no, this is perfectly normal. The people behind the new Markdown standard (Jeff, GitHub etc) have access to millions of developers and users and can advertise this to high heaven without any Gruber-drama needed. If anything, the drama could be an impediment to adoption (e.g concerning legal status etc). Definetely not a PR move at all.

Keyframe 12y ago

phpnode 12y ago

if markdown.pl had been written by some less famous person there'd have been none of this walking on eggshells, this whole thing is ridiculous.

ChikkaChiChi 12y ago

How about naming this new spec Content Markup Language (CML) and say it was "inspired by Markdown" The group has heavy backing, they could whip up parsers fairly quickly, and Markdown can be left in the dust where it's "creator" seems to want to leave it.

slm_HN 12y ago

> 1. Rename the project. Sure, how about BTM? Does that stand for Better Than Markdown? No, not at all, it's just three random letters. I'm a little amazed Gruber is so protective of "Markdown". It's a mess and it's been a mess for years. It's like meeting a guy who brags about designing the Ford Pinto gas tank, or being the comptroller at Enron.

kasey_junk 12y ago
Except all manner of systems are built on top of it. Does he come off as a jerk in this argument? Yes, but we shouldn't belittle his previous accomplishments because of that.

AshleysBrain 12y ago

I don't get Gruber's reaction. These guys have done a huge favour for Markdown, resolving real-world compatibility problems with the first ever unambiguous spec. Surely this is a good thing? If Gruber really wanted Markdown to succeed, isn't this the right direction? If multiple independent implementations of an idea start appearing, sooner or later this is going to happen. And at that point what control can you claim to have other than the name? These guys presumably have their own code, and I'm pretty sure sites like reddit have a heavier investment in Markdown than Gruber.

Steko 12y ago

Best comment I've read on the issue, from metafilter user archagon, although I doubt most HNers will agree with it. http://www.metafilter.com/142475/Standard-flavored-Markdown#5718950 http://www.metafilter.com/142475/Standard-flavored-Markdown#... Yes, ambiguity is a feature in this case. Markdown was designed from the top down by a writer, for writers. This gives it the rare characteristic of being intuitive to understand and use, but not necessarily easy (or even unambiguously possible) to implement. The lack of a standard helps keep people honest by making them follow the spirit of the law, not the letter, as you see happening with things like HTML and CSS. In fact, I'd argue that's the entire philosophy behind Markdown: usable and understandable by ordinary humans, all the way down to the spec. (Ever try reading the C spec? It feels like you need a PhD to get anything out of it.) I'm with Gruber that Markdown is successful because of its ambiguous (read: easy-to-understand) design, not in spite of it. The proof is clearly in the pudding. My feeling is that the people running into edge cases are trying to use Markdown as some sort of replacement for HTML, not a massively simplified syntax for writing articles and pages. What I see here is a group of developers who arrogantly think that they know better than Gruber what to do with Markdown. They could have called it anything else, but they chose to make the issue political. It's juvenile, especially coming from people who we're supposed to look up to in the tech community. According to Gruber, Markdown is the hardest thing he's ever worked on. He didn't spend a week on it, the idea was not obvious, and its success was not accidental. If I was him, I'd absolutely be seeing red too..

frowaway001 12y ago
> Markdown is the hardest thing he's ever worked on If that's even remotely true, I hope he never touches any piece of code in his life again. For god's sake, just look at his implementation: "Hacked together after a night of binge drinking" would be the perfect description of it.
- Steko 12y ago
  Puff your chest out all you want, call me back when you've made a bigger contribution and no longer have to hide behind 'froaway001'.

smoyer 12y ago

If Markdown is a brittle markup language, then an effort to correct the inconsistencies and contradictions should logically be called Markright.

brudgers 12y ago

Credit to Gruber for making something clever. It's just a bit late for making creditable claims of stewardship. This is as if JWZ were complaining that he wasn't consulted in regard to <blink> being left out of HTML5. Markdown isn't a regular language. The canonical documentation is written with a tiny font on a grey background, and Atwood's interest is a response to the computer science issues which arise when markdown is used on a site at the scale of StackOverflow. He's been confronting its implementation issues since at least June 2008 [1] and looking at developing a proper markdown parser since January 2010.[2] [1]: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2008/06/podcast-11/ http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2008/06/podcast-11/ [2]: http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/01/podcast-79/ http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/01/podcast-79/

bch 12y ago

When I ported Markdown to mod_perl and a CMS I was working with about 9 or so years ago, I emailed John, and he indicated " just don't use the 'Markdown' name", so I choose "Makeup" (it makes things pretty). You're welcome to reuse that name @codinghorror. It seems clear to me avoiding "Markdown", whether you precede it with Vanilla, Humble, Common, Friendly, or whatever is really just a waste of time and likely to cause unnecessary tension. Makeup, man. Makeup. The name could also be your public deferential gesture to John, so you can all - Makeup.

bch 12y ago
Also: "What's the easiest way to make you text pretty? Apply Makeup."
louhike 12y ago
Just for your information, CodingHorror is just the name of the blog. The writer uses its real name: Jeff Atwood. It is therefore better to use it directly.
- pgl 12y ago
  He also uses the Twitter handle @codinghorror.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

logn 12y ago

We haven't heard back after replying last night [...] we're immediately renaming the project [...] The project name change is already in progress Sounds like those are fighting words.

ddingus 12y ago

I would call the thing CommonMark and leave the "down" out of it. Given the improvements, it's worth a little initial ambiguity, and given those are solid, that ambiguity won't endure very long. Everybody has high happy potential, and it's up to them individually to actualize it.

lolwutf 12y ago

Have you read Gruber's tweets on the matter? He's handling this situation like a baby. His powers of getting people to read his one-line blog and other worthless content continue to amaze me.

thaumaturgy 12y ago
Every time someone dismisses Gruber's contributions and influence in the tech field, it makes our field look like it's populated by dickheads. Gruber's consistently had some of the best analysis on Apple (and some other aspects of the tech industry). He's been writing for over 10 years, it has made him successful, and he's been able to cultivate direct access to Apple (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-06/meet-apples-favorite-blogger http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-09-06/meet-apples-...) and the occasional response from Jobs himself (http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/10/steve-jobs-responds-to-iphone-sdk-complaints-intermediate-layers-produce-sub-standard-apps/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/10/steve-jobs-responds-to-ipho...). I'm with Atwood on this one, but seeing the peanut gallery make stupid and snarky comments about Gruber himself is starting to piss me off.
- lolwutf 12y ago
  Well, I agree with you that he has some of the best analysis on Apple. But the takeaway is that his quality content represents only a drop in the ocean of his worthless one-line microthroughts and general blabbery and whining.

dmcdorman 12y ago

Haven't we seen this movie about the clash of egos and a non-standard "standard" before? It didn't end well and no one seems to have benefitted from the exerience. A rose by any other name would certainly not be a rose to the casual reader. "Smakdown" (for example) would require a Google search to inform that reader. We'd loose 1 minute to see that "it's a new standard [ forked from | based on ] "Markdown by John Gruber". Calling it a rose would mean reams of existing code that would generate errors on this new "Rose" input. Names matter when they break something. But only until we learn the new one and write new code.

th0ma5 12y ago

I thought this all derived from BBCode?

vatotemking 12y ago

John Gruber on Markdown and "standardization": https://overcast.fm/podcasts/episode/344902019595#t=4527 https://overcast.fm/podcasts/episode/344902019595#t=4527

paulannesley 12y ago

Markdown is Gruber's thing. Github Flavored Markdown means “Gruber's thing, but with some GitHub things added”; and that's what it is. Standard Markdown means “the main/real/most-widely-used Markdown”; but it's none of those things. Common Markdown means almost exactly the same thing. If Standard Markdown is not okay, neither is Common Markdown. Gruber suggested “Strict Markdown” or “Pedantic Markdown”. These names clearly describe how the project differs from Gruber's thing. This has very little to do with whether the name contains the word “Markdown”. It's about semantics; describing what this thing is. Also, prematurely calling something Standard or Common is a classic mistake.

jleader 12y ago

Many people seem to be missing something that feels important to me: the "let's spec Markdown" folks sent an email to Gruber saying "we want to call our project 'Standard Flavored Markdown'". This name was arguably analogous to "GitHub Flavored Markdown", which Gruber apparently had previously indicated he was OK with. When Gruber hadn't replied after 2 weeks, the spec folks assumed that meant he was OK with their proposed name, and went ahead and announced ... "Standard Markdown" (without the softening "Flavored"). With no advanced notice whatsoever to Gruber. I'd be pretty pissed too at being blind-sided like that. Think about the difference between "Standard Flavored Markedown" (which implies there are other flavors out there, this one is just attempting to be more standardized than others) and "Standard Markdown", which implies this is The one-and-only standard version of Markdown.

zimbatm 12y ago

Taking a pause from all the drama. AsciiDoc is really close to Markdown, is well specified and has a lot of features that are missing from MD like tables and footnotes. If you want to migrate, rename the .md files to .adoc and fix the links syntax. Github supports that format out of the box and http://asciidoctor.org/ http://asciidoctor.org/ also has browser extensions to do live rendering of your local files.

NaNaN 12y ago

I suggest "Warkdown" or "Warkup". :p Then the dictionary app may ask if you are finding Markdown/markup.

eli 12y ago

Seems like they care what Gruber says about their project, so I think they should have tried a lot harder to get feedback from him. But maybe that's just the journalist in me.

tim333 12y ago

And now it seems: Common Markdown Is Now CommonMark (http://standardmarkdown.com/ http://standardmarkdown.com/) At least that's obviously a different thing to Gruber's Markdown in a way that the other names were not.

LeicaLatte 12y ago

A dying mobile web desperately seeking attention. Going after small guys. Try doing this to Kanye! It is during times like this that creators, makers are driven to defenses like patents.

ImpressiveWebs 12y ago

I think John Gruber should change his name to Lars Ulrich. Embrace progress, don't condemn it.