6 ms·

Does anyone know how do companies incentivize employees to come up with such patents? Does the patenting initiative come from the employee that "invents" or is

Does anyone know how do companies incentivize employees to come up with such patents? Does the patenting initiative come from the employee that "invents" or is this decision made by someone else?

edent 12y ago
I can't speak for MS, but in most companies where I've worked the process is something like this. - Fill in an internal form - Have a chat with an internal lawyer / patent expert - Receive a (small) payment if it is submitted to the patent office. - Receive a (bigger) payment if the patent is granted. - Receive a (huge) payment if the patent is used / sold / cross-licenced. The exact process and payments will depend on country and company. And, yes, it is possible to game this system. For a good study, read "Surely you're joking, Mr Feynman" http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z7g-BAAAQBAJ&pg=PT170&lpg=PT170&dq=feynman+patent+dollar&source=bl&ots=WQXmJch_oO&sig=wAM2g81XXLukYdwq4AtYMmPGxqw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X8_9U7HgCcjaaqjagcgJ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=feynman%20patent%20dollar&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z7g-BAAAQBAJ&pg=PT170&lpg...
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  I was sort of darkly amused by the messaging eBay sends out to solicit patent ideas from employees. One of the primary themes is "don't worry if it's obvious; obvious ideas are still patentable".
  - nkozyra 12y ago
    Well, money is money and capitalism is capitalism. I have a pretty big internal debate about the morality of our patent system, but probably wouldn't bat an eye about proposing/provisioning/filing one for a nice bonus.
    - k__ 12y ago
      Also, the lawyers are expensive and have to be worth their money.
  - jimktrains2 12y ago
    To play the devil's advocate: Something obvious to YOU may not be obvious to just anyone "skilled in the art". That said, they probably didn't mean that :(
    - throwawaykf05 12y ago
      It's not just "skilled in the art", someone of "ordinary skill in the art". And with all the complaints you inevitably read whenever an interviewing thread happens about candidates unable to code up FizzBuzz, you can guess what the level of "ordinary skill" in our industry is...
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  I could see how that would encourage every employee to try to churn as many "inventions" as possible, especially since patent deals are usually made in bulk, and not over specific patents. So even if the patent is crappy, there's a chance you can get a big payout.
  - throwawaykf05 12y ago
    Yes and no. Patents are often licensed or traded in bulk, but only a foolish entity would pay anything for a patent they have not read. However, patents are typically traded as part of a portfolio, and often the portfolio is structured so that it has a few really good ones and a bunch of nuisance or filler patents. Ideally you don't want to pay for those at all, but the seller won't sell anything other than the whole portfolio. Say they offer it for some amount X. So essentially you have to go back and say, "look, these 3 are OK but the rest are really narrow/useless/invalid/crappy, so we think your portfolio is worth much less than X." And negotiation happens. I can't say how the bonuses are handed out once a portfolio is sold. Ideally, you'd guess the inventors of the "better" patents would get bigger bonuses. The most likely scenario, unfortunately, is that the inventors get nothing, and very likely are not even aware. It's a shame inventors are so unaware of the value companies reap from their IP.
- CountHackulus 12y ago
  That's almost exactly how it worked at IBM. Plus there was always pressure from management to file patents.
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    >there was always pressure from management to file patents // IBM's past technical disclosure bulletins (TDB) [I think they stopped them a while back] suggest that there wasn't "always" pressure just that they realise[d] that their patent portfolio is one of their greatest assets - strongly encouraging employees to flag apparent innovations (and getting upstream oversight of those innovations) means that IBM can make the most of the inventiveness of their employees though. The public benefit is early disclosure of every possible innovation and the TDB helped to disseminate details of tech that may not have been well known.
shawabawa3 12y ago
I worked briefly at Orange Labs (R&D branch of France Telecoms) - they showed off how many patents they'd had approved and gave employees a bonus (~£1000 I think) if they published a patent.
clinth 12y ago
I haven't worked at companies who think along these lines, but friends of mine in the private sector have received bonuses similar to those they'd get for excellent annual performance: a stock grant or cash bonus ($3-5k, although I'm sure it varies).
smackfu 12y ago
For us, it's $1500 for the first application, and $750 for subsequent ones. On issuance, you just get a plaque.
viraptor 12y ago
Some people are actually proud of their patents, even in CS area. I was pretty surprised about it, but someone I know was really happy that they got their 13th patent granted.
- throwawaykf05 12y ago
  That is actually the case for most people outside the HN / open-source bubble. When you read a media outlet or the EFF make flat broad statements that "engineers hate software patents", you now know that they are, at best, pandering, or at worst simply lying. The truth is, the vast majority of software engineers don't even know what a patent is. Of the rest, some are neutral, some are pro-, and some are anti-software patent. Of course, you only ever hear from the latter group because they think it's a big problem, and the rest really don't see anything wrong.
  - WorldWideWayne 12y ago
    I see something wrong with "the system" but I'd still file a patent for the monetary bonus and the prestige that you get in many circles. My individual action here isn't going to change the system either way. Same reason that I don't vote. I think a lot of people fall into this category of thinking.
    - throwawaykf05 12y ago
      But ask yourself, why do you feel something is wrong with the system? My guess is because you've only been exposed to the media outrage built around cherrypicked examples of bad patents. I've read hundreds of patents, most of which could be called "software patents", and the reality is much more mundane and boring: the vast majority of patents are not groundbreaking or even interesting, but they are not overly broad or vague or obvious either, and very rarely are they infringed by anybody because they solve a narrow problem that nobody else has.
  - jo_ 12y ago
    Similar to what WorldWideWayne is saying, it's possible to be anti-patent and still have some sense of pride over being granted one. The two are far from mutually exclusive. I'm strongly opposed to software patents but would still be giddy if I got one for some neat search algorithm.
icantthinkofone 12y ago
Looks good on a resume.
mazesc 12y ago
I talked to a Microsoft guy who has a patent in his name, but was now kind of embarrassed about it. He said that he didn't have much leeway when he first started there. So in this case the decision came from his superiors.

Does anyone know how do companies incentivize employees to come up with such patents? Does the patenting initiative come from the employee that "invents" or is this decision made by someone else?

edent 12y ago

I can't speak for MS, but in most companies where I've worked the process is something like this. - Fill in an internal form - Have a chat with an internal lawyer / patent expert - Receive a (small) payment if it is submitted to the patent office. - Receive a (bigger) payment if the patent is granted. - Receive a (huge) payment if the patent is used / sold / cross-licenced. The exact process and payments will depend on country and company. And, yes, it is possible to game this system. For a good study, read "Surely you're joking, Mr Feynman" http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z7g-BAAAQBAJ&pg=PT170&lpg=PT170&dq=feynman+patent+dollar&source=bl&ots=WQXmJch_oO&sig=wAM2g81XXLukYdwq4AtYMmPGxqw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X8_9U7HgCcjaaqjagcgJ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=feynman%20patent%20dollar&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z7g-BAAAQBAJ&pg=PT170&lpg...

thaumasiotes 12y ago
I was sort of darkly amused by the messaging eBay sends out to solicit patent ideas from employees. One of the primary themes is "don't worry if it's obvious; obvious ideas are still patentable".
- nkozyra 12y ago
  Well, money is money and capitalism is capitalism. I have a pretty big internal debate about the morality of our patent system, but probably wouldn't bat an eye about proposing/provisioning/filing one for a nice bonus.
  - k__ 12y ago
    Also, the lawyers are expensive and have to be worth their money.
- jimktrains2 12y ago
  To play the devil's advocate: Something obvious to YOU may not be obvious to just anyone "skilled in the art". That said, they probably didn't mean that :(
  - throwawaykf05 12y ago
    It's not just "skilled in the art", someone of "ordinary skill in the art". And with all the complaints you inevitably read whenever an interviewing thread happens about candidates unable to code up FizzBuzz, you can guess what the level of "ordinary skill" in our industry is...
higherpurpose 12y ago
I could see how that would encourage every employee to try to churn as many "inventions" as possible, especially since patent deals are usually made in bulk, and not over specific patents. So even if the patent is crappy, there's a chance you can get a big payout.
- throwawaykf05 12y ago
  Yes and no. Patents are often licensed or traded in bulk, but only a foolish entity would pay anything for a patent they have not read. However, patents are typically traded as part of a portfolio, and often the portfolio is structured so that it has a few really good ones and a bunch of nuisance or filler patents. Ideally you don't want to pay for those at all, but the seller won't sell anything other than the whole portfolio. Say they offer it for some amount X. So essentially you have to go back and say, "look, these 3 are OK but the rest are really narrow/useless/invalid/crappy, so we think your portfolio is worth much less than X." And negotiation happens. I can't say how the bonuses are handed out once a portfolio is sold. Ideally, you'd guess the inventors of the "better" patents would get bigger bonuses. The most likely scenario, unfortunately, is that the inventors get nothing, and very likely are not even aware. It's a shame inventors are so unaware of the value companies reap from their IP.
CountHackulus 12y ago
That's almost exactly how it worked at IBM. Plus there was always pressure from management to file patents.
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  >there was always pressure from management to file patents // IBM's past technical disclosure bulletins (TDB) [I think they stopped them a while back] suggest that there wasn't "always" pressure just that they realise[d] that their patent portfolio is one of their greatest assets - strongly encouraging employees to flag apparent innovations (and getting upstream oversight of those innovations) means that IBM can make the most of the inventiveness of their employees though. The public benefit is early disclosure of every possible innovation and the TDB helped to disseminate details of tech that may not have been well known.

shawabawa3 12y ago

I worked briefly at Orange Labs (R&D branch of France Telecoms) - they showed off how many patents they'd had approved and gave employees a bonus (~£1000 I think) if they published a patent.

clinth 12y ago

I haven't worked at companies who think along these lines, but friends of mine in the private sector have received bonuses similar to those they'd get for excellent annual performance: a stock grant or cash bonus ($3-5k, although I'm sure it varies).

smackfu 12y ago

For us, it's $1500 for the first application, and $750 for subsequent ones. On issuance, you just get a plaque.

viraptor 12y ago

Some people are actually proud of their patents, even in CS area. I was pretty surprised about it, but someone I know was really happy that they got their 13th patent granted.

throwawaykf05 12y ago
That is actually the case for most people outside the HN / open-source bubble. When you read a media outlet or the EFF make flat broad statements that "engineers hate software patents", you now know that they are, at best, pandering, or at worst simply lying. The truth is, the vast majority of software engineers don't even know what a patent is. Of the rest, some are neutral, some are pro-, and some are anti-software patent. Of course, you only ever hear from the latter group because they think it's a big problem, and the rest really don't see anything wrong.
- WorldWideWayne 12y ago
  I see something wrong with "the system" but I'd still file a patent for the monetary bonus and the prestige that you get in many circles. My individual action here isn't going to change the system either way. Same reason that I don't vote. I think a lot of people fall into this category of thinking.
  - throwawaykf05 12y ago
    But ask yourself, why do you feel something is wrong with the system? My guess is because you've only been exposed to the media outrage built around cherrypicked examples of bad patents. I've read hundreds of patents, most of which could be called "software patents", and the reality is much more mundane and boring: the vast majority of patents are not groundbreaking or even interesting, but they are not overly broad or vague or obvious either, and very rarely are they infringed by anybody because they solve a narrow problem that nobody else has.
- jo_ 12y ago
  Similar to what WorldWideWayne is saying, it's possible to be anti-patent and still have some sense of pride over being granted one. The two are far from mutually exclusive. I'm strongly opposed to software patents but would still be giddy if I got one for some neat search algorithm.

icantthinkofone 12y ago

Looks good on a resume.

mazesc 12y ago

I talked to a Microsoft guy who has a patent in his name, but was now kind of embarrassed about it. He said that he didn't have much leeway when he first started there. So in this case the decision came from his superiors.