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As a huge fan of Amazon in general (as a customer), I still find it difficult to believe they released a hobbled Android phone that is AT&T exclusive and starts

As a huge fan of Amazon in general (as a customer), I still find it difficult to believe they released a hobbled Android phone that is AT&T exclusive and starts at $650 into a world where the $350 fully unlocked Nexus 5 already existed for almost 8 months prior to their release. I'm just really seriously confused by what they were thinking here. It is almost like seeing one of those "fail" videos where a kid piledrives his friend off the roof into the backyard and both kids end up badly injured -- of course that was the end result, there was no reasonably plausible path from the starting point to any sort of non-failure ending.

hkmurakami 12y ago
My honest assessment, (having worked for a company that supplies parts and SW to Lab126 [1] in the past) is that the hardware design and specs were nailed down quite some time ago, but they took so long to execute and launch that the world they launched into was vastly different from the one they had targeting against when they first started designing the phone and coming up with the battle plans. [1] Lab126 is Amazon's hardware arm that makes these phones.
- phaus 12y ago
  You are probably right about the specs being nailed down a long time ago, but I don't think it really would have made a difference. The only possible scenario where Amazon can reliably sell smartphones at a price of $650 would be if they scored exclusive rights to distribute the iPhone 6.
  - hkmurakami 12y ago
    I think they could have deluded themselves into thinking that a $650 phone would work much more easily 2 years ago than today, for instance.
    - phaus 12y ago
      I can see how that could be the case. They wouldn't have had my $650 even two years ago, but its possible they would have had a better result than they did in 2014. In the future, I think Amazon still may have a shot at producing a decent phone at a reasonable price. Hell, I just bought a Galaxy Nexus (from Amazon) to replace the LG G2 that I broke (didn't feel like spending $600). In spite of its age, its hands-down a better phone than the G2. If they get the form-factor and the software right, there are lots of people who won't even care if the CPU isn't the latest and greatest iteration.
      - tadfisher 12y ago
        Stock Android really is the best experience. You can tell it was designed with a sort of consistency and fluidity that all of the manufacturer skins lack. I would also take a Galaxy Nexus over any skinned Android device; with the exception of HTC Sense, which has really improved since the disastrous Gingerbread days.
        bellerocky 12y ago
        I just install Aviate or some other thing on top of TouchWiz on my Galaxy 5. Who cares what the default UI is like, you can replace it is enough on Android. I think you can get any kind of Android UI you like, you're not stuck with what you get from the manufacturer.
        TylerE 12y ago
        Not all of it. In one of the recent HTC updates they pushed some incredinly inane "features", for instance a "volume warning" that forces you to click ok to move the volume past about the halfway point - even if it's the BLUETOOTH volume.
        eigenvector 12y ago
        Volume warning is actually from stock Android.
- aluhut 12y ago
  Wouldn't it been still better to sell cheaper and hope for some income through the purchase customers made with their product?
bane 12y ago
Two weeks ago at the Verizon store, they were selling Note 3's for $99 which appear to be at least spec-wise a far better phone. In between the $99 Note 3 and the $650 Amazon phone there's an entire universe of better phones. While there's some cool software included with it, I honestly don't think any of the things on show are killer features worthy of the price difference. The main special feature appears to be a "identify this item" which is basically what the amazon app on android already does, except now there's a dedicated button for it. Do people really walk around identifying items for purchase to comparison shop on Amazon so often a dedicated button needs to be built into the device?
- hkmurakami 12y ago
  >Do people really walk around identifying items for purchase to comparison shop on Amazon so often a dedicated button needs to be built into the device? Oh I didn't even know that was a feature. That actually sounds pretty cool to me. I know it's not a strong user behavior at the moment, but plenty of people price shop in brick and mortar stores (I certianly do it every time I'm at Best Buy, but it's just to get Best Buy to price match with Amazon), but maybe if (a) the phone comes down in price and (b) they offer some kind of brownie on top of the feature (like a N% discount over the brick and mortar store's matched price with Amazon, if you physically scan an item and the phone detects via GPS that you're at a storefront?), maybe it can slowly tide people over and change user behavior.
  - atmosx 12y ago
    It is a strong behaviour. The 1st ranking website in Greece is a price-comparison website called 'Skroutz'. That's because every one I know, makes 'Skroutz search' before buying an item and compares the price of the item with the online counter-part. The thing with Skroutz is that you know the shipping cost is about 2 to 4 EUR. But with Amazon you can't tell how much the shipping cost might be, from Amazon-UK/FR/DE/IT to GR.
    - jahnu 12y ago
      You can't even easily tell if they will ship to your destination without trying to complete a transaction. Very annoying.
blutoot 12y ago
I think the blame for this botched strategy might largely lie with this person - Maiken Møller-Hansen: http://www.linkedin.com/in/maikenmoellerhansen http://www.linkedin.com/in/maikenmoellerhansen By the way, this isn't the first time I've noticed Amazon appointing an MBA with a non-technical background (albeit from a top-notch business school) in a senior product management role for its consumer products. I thought tech companies go for MBAs only when they have an engineering background at the very least.
- saosebastiao 12y ago
  I'm not anywhere close to that part of the business, but I would be highly skeptical that she had much input at all. The kindle division, which this falls under, is highly command-and-control. Co-workers in the Kindle buildings say that they regularly see Jeff Bezos in their hallways (like 2-5 times a week), whereas I have only seen him once at a company meeting. Scope creep is a huge problem because you have dictator managers that all have their favorite feature that is priority 1, and there are so goddamn many of them. I wouldn't be surprised if some VP somewhere delayed the launch for a year just so they could launch with the cool-but-completely-useless 3d maps. She was no doubt a part of the process, but there is no way she ran the show.
  - blutoot 12y ago
    That's quite enlightening. My comment was due to my industry-related naiveté. I thought a principal PM has the final say on both the features and the business side of a product. I didn't realize VPs add additional filters.
    - pzb 12y ago
      Principal is a job level. It is above Senior. A single product frequently has multiple Product Managers, some of whom are Senior PMs, some are Principal PMs, and some are "just" PMs. You could even have a Senior Principal PM.
  - SyneRyder 12y ago
    So what happened to the Amazon "Working Backwards" methodology of writing up a one-page PR release & customer FAQ, and working back from that to designing/creating the product? Wasn't that designed to reduce scope creep? Is Amazon still using that method?
dustingetz 12y ago
you gotta release something to be able to iterate it
amartya916 12y ago
Looking at this post as well as the Firefox OS phone ($33 one) on HN today, I was wondering whether it makes sense for Amazon to release an FFOS device with Amazon's product's on centre stage (Prime video, Amazon store (not the Amazon app store), Kindle etc.). If they came out with a phone that had specs comparable to the Flame (or slightly better) and price it competitively($175ish), both companies can do well. If the 2-year development timeframe is correct, one can see how Amazon couldn't even have thought of FFOS as an alternative, but now, FFOS is slowly but surely getting there. If Amazon uses it's engineering chops to advance FFOS – and I am sure that a lot of developers at Amazon will be happy to contribute to FFOS too – perhaps they could compete with Android and iOS?
- Pacabel 12y ago
  The reality is that customers just don't want to use Firefox OS. Even with Amazon's support, it would still be very inferior in many ways to Android and iOS, and even to some of the other less-popular mobile OSes that are already out there. Given that Firefox OS apps written in HTML5, CSS and JavaScript should run just as well on Android and iOS, anyone actually wanting to use such apps is better off just getting an Android or an iOS device. That way they can run the Firefox OS apps, as well as all of the other apps that Android or iOS support.
  - fabrice_d 12y ago
    The reality is that for some reason you're a Firefox OS hater. I don't think anyone forces you to use it you know... But more people chose Firefox OS than Amazon so far.
    - Aloha 12y ago
      More people bought 1958 Edsels than 1958 Volkswagen Beetles too, that doesn't make the Edsel a better car than the Beetle. Popularity is not the same thing as value.
    - Pacabel 12y ago
      Emotion is totally irrelevant here. I don't "hate" Firefox OS, nor do I "like" Firefox OS. It's just a tool, so I give it an objective, unemotional analysis. That analysis shows that it lacks the features and functionality that are needed for it to be a useful tool for the vast, vast majority of users. Most people use a phone for practical reasons, not ideological ones. They don't care how "open" it may be if it doesn't run the apps they need or want to use. Firefox OS will have no chance of succeeding in the long run as long as it continues to provide a sub-par user experience.
increment_i 12y ago
Indeed. And it was so abundantly clear that this phone was going to fail that I have to speculate that Amazon themselves must have known this. Maybe the sunk costs involved in such a project gave them no choice but to continue deluding themselves? It just goes to show, even the big boys make things nobody wants.
- adventured 12y ago
  Mostly at this point I'm curious whether Amazon will attempt to iterate themselves into a second version. Thinking they can just improve the phone, maybe alter the pricing, and try again.
colordrops 12y ago
I know exactly which video you are referring to and I have also never seen anything with a higher and more obvious likelyhood to fail than that. I also have never seen an Amazon phone in the wild. But at least Amazon is not permanently damaged like the guys in the video.
anon_1235245 12y ago
I worked at Lab126 on this project when this project was just started (a number of years ago). Given the environment in the team and the people hired to lead it, the fact that anything shipped at all is a miracle of gargantuan proportions, trust me.
- atmosx 12y ago
  Given the fact that entire 'Lab126' commented on the matter[1], I had the chance to read some of these people's resumes... Which makes your quote hard to believe :-) [1] That's why I love HN anyway.
  - nchlswu 12y ago
    where did they comment on the matter? Can't find said comment or was it an article?
  - calinet6 12y ago
    Sometimes the best individuals make the worst teams. Almost correlated, actually: those with the best resumes tend to think that products are made by individuals.
- taylorbuley 12y ago
  I'm a writer. You should tell me some of your story! I'm contactable via my username at gmail.com
- charlesarthur 12y ago
  I wrote the original piece above - would love to hear all about your experience. Email easy to find.
VLM 12y ago
Amazon brand means to me that it'll be more convenient than the brick and mortar competition also slightly cheaper, and faster to deliver than all of the online competition also usually cheaper than online competition. If their phone were a book, it would cost about twice as much as barnes and noble, and take 8 months to arrive, and wouldn't be any more convenient. So that's fairly mystifying. The convenience factor is the strangest aspect of this phone. How are they making the ordering, delivery, and activation phase more convenient than a competitor like republic wireless? Oh they aren't. Well then. So... I've heard the top down of why they're doing a phone, but whats the bottom up of why they're shipping something that is almost the opposite of the amazon brand? Its not really an Amazon Phone. Its just a crappy overpriced underspec'd phone that happens to be sold by Amazon.
Kurtz79 12y ago
It seems they really tried to get into the market as a no-nonsense top player, with a phone that they perceived could go head-on with the flagships of Apple, Samsung and Google. It would have made more sense (at least as a way of putting the foot into the door) to release a cheap, decently specced phone, which would have leveraged on Amazon services to subsidise the price, with strong client apps for kindle, video streaming, and the main Amazon shop. Hasn't Amazon built their empire with the high volume/thin margins mantra ? Really weird, and out of "character" for Amazon.
gdilla 12y ago
Well, it's most likely that their product development cycle for this phone was just too long - the smartphone market moves really fast. Couple that with not having supply chain heft that comes with time and big orders from your asian suppliers and mfgs, the phone wasn't going to be cheap either. But I think they knew all this. It starts the water flowing for them to get into the game. they have staying power, and over time, could start gaining market share. It's a long play, like most of Bezo's moves. The phone is really a just going to be part of the AMZN ecosystem too - they'll start lumping services on it for prime members, etc.
rayiner 12y ago
There is the advertising too. My wife asked if we should buy one for our daughter. She assumed it was a cheap sturdy phone for kids because the ad was about a nine year old using one.
otakucode 12y ago
As an owner of Amazon stock, I was very dismayed to see Amazon release a phone. The market is completely over-saturated. And worse, knowing Jeff Bezos, he will double down and double down and double down on this thing and never give up. That it's a fundamentally bad idea is not something he will even consider once he's decided to go this route. I expect the Fire Phone to take a very big chunk out of Amazon over the coming decade.
- alttab 12y ago
  Where has he doubled down and double down and double down and lost where it cost the company dearly? I'm not saying that because I believe you are wrong, but because I could be missing something.
wnissen 12y ago
It's worse than that, though. The Amazon app store is crippled, like on the Amazon tablets. My current edition Kindle Fire has no YouTube app! Almost everything shows up later than in the stock store, if at all. The only thing that isn't worse is that the prices are essentially competitive, but overall it's a total pain.

hkmurakami 12y ago

My honest assessment, (having worked for a company that supplies parts and SW to Lab126 [1] in the past) is that the hardware design and specs were nailed down quite some time ago, but they took so long to execute and launch that the world they launched into was vastly different from the one they had targeting against when they first started designing the phone and coming up with the battle plans. [1] Lab126 is Amazon's hardware arm that makes these phones.

phaus 12y ago
You are probably right about the specs being nailed down a long time ago, but I don't think it really would have made a difference. The only possible scenario where Amazon can reliably sell smartphones at a price of $650 would be if they scored exclusive rights to distribute the iPhone 6.
- hkmurakami 12y ago
  I think they could have deluded themselves into thinking that a $650 phone would work much more easily 2 years ago than today, for instance.
  - phaus 12y ago
    I can see how that could be the case. They wouldn't have had my $650 even two years ago, but its possible they would have had a better result than they did in 2014. In the future, I think Amazon still may have a shot at producing a decent phone at a reasonable price. Hell, I just bought a Galaxy Nexus (from Amazon) to replace the LG G2 that I broke (didn't feel like spending $600). In spite of its age, its hands-down a better phone than the G2. If they get the form-factor and the software right, there are lots of people who won't even care if the CPU isn't the latest and greatest iteration.
    - tadfisher 12y ago
      Stock Android really is the best experience. You can tell it was designed with a sort of consistency and fluidity that all of the manufacturer skins lack. I would also take a Galaxy Nexus over any skinned Android device; with the exception of HTC Sense, which has really improved since the disastrous Gingerbread days.
      - bellerocky 12y ago
        I just install Aviate or some other thing on top of TouchWiz on my Galaxy 5. Who cares what the default UI is like, you can replace it is enough on Android. I think you can get any kind of Android UI you like, you're not stuck with what you get from the manufacturer.
        TylerE 12y ago
        Not all of it. In one of the recent HTC updates they pushed some incredinly inane "features", for instance a "volume warning" that forces you to click ok to move the volume past about the halfway point - even if it's the BLUETOOTH volume.
        eigenvector 12y ago
        Volume warning is actually from stock Android.
aluhut 12y ago
Wouldn't it been still better to sell cheaper and hope for some income through the purchase customers made with their product?

bane 12y ago

Two weeks ago at the Verizon store, they were selling Note 3's for $99 which appear to be at least spec-wise a far better phone. In between the $99 Note 3 and the $650 Amazon phone there's an entire universe of better phones. While there's some cool software included with it, I honestly don't think any of the things on show are killer features worthy of the price difference. The main special feature appears to be a "identify this item" which is basically what the amazon app on android already does, except now there's a dedicated button for it. Do people really walk around identifying items for purchase to comparison shop on Amazon so often a dedicated button needs to be built into the device?

hkmurakami 12y ago
>Do people really walk around identifying items for purchase to comparison shop on Amazon so often a dedicated button needs to be built into the device? Oh I didn't even know that was a feature. That actually sounds pretty cool to me. I know it's not a strong user behavior at the moment, but plenty of people price shop in brick and mortar stores (I certianly do it every time I'm at Best Buy, but it's just to get Best Buy to price match with Amazon), but maybe if (a) the phone comes down in price and (b) they offer some kind of brownie on top of the feature (like a N% discount over the brick and mortar store's matched price with Amazon, if you physically scan an item and the phone detects via GPS that you're at a storefront?), maybe it can slowly tide people over and change user behavior.
- atmosx 12y ago
  It is a strong behaviour. The 1st ranking website in Greece is a price-comparison website called 'Skroutz'. That's because every one I know, makes 'Skroutz search' before buying an item and compares the price of the item with the online counter-part. The thing with Skroutz is that you know the shipping cost is about 2 to 4 EUR. But with Amazon you can't tell how much the shipping cost might be, from Amazon-UK/FR/DE/IT to GR.
  - jahnu 12y ago
    You can't even easily tell if they will ship to your destination without trying to complete a transaction. Very annoying.

blutoot 12y ago

I think the blame for this botched strategy might largely lie with this person - Maiken Møller-Hansen: http://www.linkedin.com/in/maikenmoellerhansen http://www.linkedin.com/in/maikenmoellerhansen By the way, this isn't the first time I've noticed Amazon appointing an MBA with a non-technical background (albeit from a top-notch business school) in a senior product management role for its consumer products. I thought tech companies go for MBAs only when they have an engineering background at the very least.

saosebastiao 12y ago
I'm not anywhere close to that part of the business, but I would be highly skeptical that she had much input at all. The kindle division, which this falls under, is highly command-and-control. Co-workers in the Kindle buildings say that they regularly see Jeff Bezos in their hallways (like 2-5 times a week), whereas I have only seen him once at a company meeting. Scope creep is a huge problem because you have dictator managers that all have their favorite feature that is priority 1, and there are so goddamn many of them. I wouldn't be surprised if some VP somewhere delayed the launch for a year just so they could launch with the cool-but-completely-useless 3d maps. She was no doubt a part of the process, but there is no way she ran the show.
- blutoot 12y ago
  That's quite enlightening. My comment was due to my industry-related naiveté. I thought a principal PM has the final say on both the features and the business side of a product. I didn't realize VPs add additional filters.
  - pzb 12y ago
    Principal is a job level. It is above Senior. A single product frequently has multiple Product Managers, some of whom are Senior PMs, some are Principal PMs, and some are "just" PMs. You could even have a Senior Principal PM.
- SyneRyder 12y ago
  So what happened to the Amazon "Working Backwards" methodology of writing up a one-page PR release & customer FAQ, and working back from that to designing/creating the product? Wasn't that designed to reduce scope creep? Is Amazon still using that method?

dustingetz 12y ago

you gotta release something to be able to iterate it

amartya916 12y ago

Looking at this post as well as the Firefox OS phone ($33 one) on HN today, I was wondering whether it makes sense for Amazon to release an FFOS device with Amazon's product's on centre stage (Prime video, Amazon store (not the Amazon app store), Kindle etc.). If they came out with a phone that had specs comparable to the Flame (or slightly better) and price it competitively($175ish), both companies can do well. If the 2-year development timeframe is correct, one can see how Amazon couldn't even have thought of FFOS as an alternative, but now, FFOS is slowly but surely getting there. If Amazon uses it's engineering chops to advance FFOS – and I am sure that a lot of developers at Amazon will be happy to contribute to FFOS too – perhaps they could compete with Android and iOS?

Pacabel 12y ago
The reality is that customers just don't want to use Firefox OS. Even with Amazon's support, it would still be very inferior in many ways to Android and iOS, and even to some of the other less-popular mobile OSes that are already out there. Given that Firefox OS apps written in HTML5, CSS and JavaScript should run just as well on Android and iOS, anyone actually wanting to use such apps is better off just getting an Android or an iOS device. That way they can run the Firefox OS apps, as well as all of the other apps that Android or iOS support.
- fabrice_d 12y ago
  The reality is that for some reason you're a Firefox OS hater. I don't think anyone forces you to use it you know... But more people chose Firefox OS than Amazon so far.
  - Aloha 12y ago
    More people bought 1958 Edsels than 1958 Volkswagen Beetles too, that doesn't make the Edsel a better car than the Beetle. Popularity is not the same thing as value.
  - Pacabel 12y ago
    Emotion is totally irrelevant here. I don't "hate" Firefox OS, nor do I "like" Firefox OS. It's just a tool, so I give it an objective, unemotional analysis. That analysis shows that it lacks the features and functionality that are needed for it to be a useful tool for the vast, vast majority of users. Most people use a phone for practical reasons, not ideological ones. They don't care how "open" it may be if it doesn't run the apps they need or want to use. Firefox OS will have no chance of succeeding in the long run as long as it continues to provide a sub-par user experience.

increment_i 12y ago

Indeed. And it was so abundantly clear that this phone was going to fail that I have to speculate that Amazon themselves must have known this. Maybe the sunk costs involved in such a project gave them no choice but to continue deluding themselves? It just goes to show, even the big boys make things nobody wants.

adventured 12y ago
Mostly at this point I'm curious whether Amazon will attempt to iterate themselves into a second version. Thinking they can just improve the phone, maybe alter the pricing, and try again.

colordrops 12y ago

I know exactly which video you are referring to and I have also never seen anything with a higher and more obvious likelyhood to fail than that. I also have never seen an Amazon phone in the wild. But at least Amazon is not permanently damaged like the guys in the video.

anon_1235245 12y ago

I worked at Lab126 on this project when this project was just started (a number of years ago). Given the environment in the team and the people hired to lead it, the fact that anything shipped at all is a miracle of gargantuan proportions, trust me.

atmosx 12y ago
Given the fact that entire 'Lab126' commented on the matter[1], I had the chance to read some of these people's resumes... Which makes your quote hard to believe :-) [1] That's why I love HN anyway.
- nchlswu 12y ago
  where did they comment on the matter? Can't find said comment or was it an article?
- calinet6 12y ago
  Sometimes the best individuals make the worst teams. Almost correlated, actually: those with the best resumes tend to think that products are made by individuals.
taylorbuley 12y ago
I'm a writer. You should tell me some of your story! I'm contactable via my username at gmail.com
charlesarthur 12y ago
I wrote the original piece above - would love to hear all about your experience. Email easy to find.

VLM 12y ago

Amazon brand means to me that it'll be more convenient than the brick and mortar competition also slightly cheaper, and faster to deliver than all of the online competition also usually cheaper than online competition. If their phone were a book, it would cost about twice as much as barnes and noble, and take 8 months to arrive, and wouldn't be any more convenient. So that's fairly mystifying. The convenience factor is the strangest aspect of this phone. How are they making the ordering, delivery, and activation phase more convenient than a competitor like republic wireless? Oh they aren't. Well then. So... I've heard the top down of why they're doing a phone, but whats the bottom up of why they're shipping something that is almost the opposite of the amazon brand? Its not really an Amazon Phone. Its just a crappy overpriced underspec'd phone that happens to be sold by Amazon.

Kurtz79 12y ago

It seems they really tried to get into the market as a no-nonsense top player, with a phone that they perceived could go head-on with the flagships of Apple, Samsung and Google. It would have made more sense (at least as a way of putting the foot into the door) to release a cheap, decently specced phone, which would have leveraged on Amazon services to subsidise the price, with strong client apps for kindle, video streaming, and the main Amazon shop. Hasn't Amazon built their empire with the high volume/thin margins mantra ? Really weird, and out of "character" for Amazon.

gdilla 12y ago

Well, it's most likely that their product development cycle for this phone was just too long - the smartphone market moves really fast. Couple that with not having supply chain heft that comes with time and big orders from your asian suppliers and mfgs, the phone wasn't going to be cheap either. But I think they knew all this. It starts the water flowing for them to get into the game. they have staying power, and over time, could start gaining market share. It's a long play, like most of Bezo's moves. The phone is really a just going to be part of the AMZN ecosystem too - they'll start lumping services on it for prime members, etc.

rayiner 12y ago

There is the advertising too. My wife asked if we should buy one for our daughter. She assumed it was a cheap sturdy phone for kids because the ad was about a nine year old using one.

otakucode 12y ago

As an owner of Amazon stock, I was very dismayed to see Amazon release a phone. The market is completely over-saturated. And worse, knowing Jeff Bezos, he will double down and double down and double down on this thing and never give up. That it's a fundamentally bad idea is not something he will even consider once he's decided to go this route. I expect the Fire Phone to take a very big chunk out of Amazon over the coming decade.

alttab 12y ago
Where has he doubled down and double down and double down and lost where it cost the company dearly? I'm not saying that because I believe you are wrong, but because I could be missing something.

wnissen 12y ago

It's worse than that, though. The Amazon app store is crippled, like on the Amazon tablets. My current edition Kindle Fire has no YouTube app! Almost everything shows up later than in the stock store, if at all. The only thing that isn't worse is that the prices are essentially competitive, but overall it's a total pain.