3 ms·

What about allowing people to store wealth in a non-depreciating, attainable, liquid asset (something besides USD or mutual funds or a home made out of plywood)

by awt 12y ago

What about allowing people to store wealth in a non-depreciating, attainable, liquid asset (something besides USD or mutual funds or a home made out of plywood), and limiting liability for health providers?

kasey_junk 12y ago
"non-depreciating, attainable, liquid asset (something besides USD" What does that even mean?
- prostoalex 12y ago
  TIPS?
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    I guess, for some definition of liquid.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- zo1 12y ago
  Are you actually confused about the terms, or just trying to be facetious?
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    No, I'm curious what financial instrument meets all those requirements.
- sitkack 12y ago
  Glitter sprinkles?
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    Glitter sprinkles are available where you are? Well aren't you just living the dream!
dustcoin 12y ago
>mutual funds Vanguard offers many low-fee mutual funds. Non-depreciating: The long-term return of stock indices and some bond indices beats inflation. Attainable: $1000-$3000 minimum to open an account Liquid: Funds can be bought or sold easily (with no fee), money is accessible via ACH. I hope you are not suggesting that gold is a better investment than a diverse portfolio of stocks and bonds.
- awt 12y ago
  Gold ETFs are fubar. Gold itself is not very liquid. There are all sorts of prohibitive fees and tax penalties for taking money out of a 401k or a mutual fund before a certain date. The barrier to accessing the value represented by any mutual fund or 401k holdings is substantial. It took me months to move money from one dead 401k to another one I controlled. Imagine the amount of effort required to spend $50.00 of a 401k on groceries.
- zo1 12y ago
  They're still based on or valued in USD, which is what the OP wanted to avoid. A lot of good those USD-valued mutual funds are going to do for you when they're worth peanuts due to a devaluation of the currency or its buying power. "I hope you are not suggesting that gold is a better investment than a diverse portfolio of stocks and bonds." There are a lot of people that believe a big government/market crash is coming. And they're absolutely desperate for ways to weather it without eating their own toes off.
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    "There are a lot of people that believe a big government/market crash is coming. And they're absolutely desperate for ways to weather it without eating their own toes off." Those people would be best served by buying ammunition.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  "Liquid: Funds can be bought or sold easily (with no fee), money is accessible via ACH." Just as a heads up, most finance folks don't consider being able to buy/sell something easily as the only bar to liquidity. Volatility is also a major component. That is, if something can change value dramatically from day to day it can be considered "illiquid". So lots of people do not consider mutual funds "liquid".
mikeash 12y ago
Your comment seems to imply that there's a good store of wealth that fits these criteria, but that it's not allowed. What is it?
- awt 12y ago
  There isn't right now. Someday Bitcoin might fill that role.
  - kasey_junk 12y ago
    I'm not trying to be argumentative but lets assume Bitcoin becomes as liquid as USD (ie you can spend it on everything you can on USD without paying any higher transaction fees) what keeps the availability/depreciation matrix in check. That is, if it is a great value store why won't people horde it, thus decreasing availability. If it becomes readily available, why wouldn't it become worth less?
    - awt 12y ago
      Hmm, I'm not sure how to answer that. Hoarding increases the unit price relative to other assets, but doesn't make it any less liquid. Essentially infinitely small amounts of bitcoin can be transacted at any time.
    - mikeash 12y ago
      I think one big problem is fact that there really can't be a long-term nonvolatile store of value. Economic activity is inherently continuous. There are a few goods that last more than a few years without maintenance or replacement. Economic output puts a hard limit on how quickly you can turn your value store into stuff you actually want. For an individual it doesn't make much difference, but when everybody tries to do it, it doesn't work. For an extreme thought experiment, consider if everyone puts half their income into a perfect store of value for a year, living off the other half, then the next year they live off the savings. Everyone would die of starvation the second year even though they supposedly have just as much value available as what sustained them the year before.
akgerber 12y ago
TIPS already exist, and you can buy them online easily: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/products/prod_tips_glance.htm https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/products/prod_tips_glan... It doesn't magically fix human nature, which prioritizes immediate needs over very distant ones.
- awt 12y ago
  I suppose that would work if you trust the consumer price index. My own experience belies reported low inflation.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  TIPS are not normally considered "liquid" (at least not as liquid as cash, which is the standard most people have) as they have minimum terms of ownership.

by awt 12y ago

kasey_junk 12y ago

"non-depreciating, attainable, liquid asset (something besides USD" What does that even mean?

prostoalex 12y ago
TIPS?
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  I guess, for some definition of liquid.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
zo1 12y ago
Are you actually confused about the terms, or just trying to be facetious?
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  No, I'm curious what financial instrument meets all those requirements.
sitkack 12y ago
Glitter sprinkles?
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  Glitter sprinkles are available where you are? Well aren't you just living the dream!

dustcoin 12y ago

>mutual funds Vanguard offers many low-fee mutual funds. Non-depreciating: The long-term return of stock indices and some bond indices beats inflation. Attainable: $1000-$3000 minimum to open an account Liquid: Funds can be bought or sold easily (with no fee), money is accessible via ACH. I hope you are not suggesting that gold is a better investment than a diverse portfolio of stocks and bonds.

awt 12y ago
Gold ETFs are fubar. Gold itself is not very liquid. There are all sorts of prohibitive fees and tax penalties for taking money out of a 401k or a mutual fund before a certain date. The barrier to accessing the value represented by any mutual fund or 401k holdings is substantial. It took me months to move money from one dead 401k to another one I controlled. Imagine the amount of effort required to spend $50.00 of a 401k on groceries.
zo1 12y ago
They're still based on or valued in USD, which is what the OP wanted to avoid. A lot of good those USD-valued mutual funds are going to do for you when they're worth peanuts due to a devaluation of the currency or its buying power. "I hope you are not suggesting that gold is a better investment than a diverse portfolio of stocks and bonds." There are a lot of people that believe a big government/market crash is coming. And they're absolutely desperate for ways to weather it without eating their own toes off.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  "There are a lot of people that believe a big government/market crash is coming. And they're absolutely desperate for ways to weather it without eating their own toes off." Those people would be best served by buying ammunition.
kasey_junk 12y ago
"Liquid: Funds can be bought or sold easily (with no fee), money is accessible via ACH." Just as a heads up, most finance folks don't consider being able to buy/sell something easily as the only bar to liquidity. Volatility is also a major component. That is, if something can change value dramatically from day to day it can be considered "illiquid". So lots of people do not consider mutual funds "liquid".

mikeash 12y ago

Your comment seems to imply that there's a good store of wealth that fits these criteria, but that it's not allowed. What is it?

awt 12y ago
There isn't right now. Someday Bitcoin might fill that role.
- kasey_junk 12y ago
  I'm not trying to be argumentative but lets assume Bitcoin becomes as liquid as USD (ie you can spend it on everything you can on USD without paying any higher transaction fees) what keeps the availability/depreciation matrix in check. That is, if it is a great value store why won't people horde it, thus decreasing availability. If it becomes readily available, why wouldn't it become worth less?
  - awt 12y ago
    Hmm, I'm not sure how to answer that. Hoarding increases the unit price relative to other assets, but doesn't make it any less liquid. Essentially infinitely small amounts of bitcoin can be transacted at any time.
  - mikeash 12y ago
    I think one big problem is fact that there really can't be a long-term nonvolatile store of value. Economic activity is inherently continuous. There are a few goods that last more than a few years without maintenance or replacement. Economic output puts a hard limit on how quickly you can turn your value store into stuff you actually want. For an individual it doesn't make much difference, but when everybody tries to do it, it doesn't work. For an extreme thought experiment, consider if everyone puts half their income into a perfect store of value for a year, living off the other half, then the next year they live off the savings. Everyone would die of starvation the second year even though they supposedly have just as much value available as what sustained them the year before.

akgerber 12y ago

TIPS already exist, and you can buy them online easily: https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/products/prod_tips_glance.htm https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/products/prod_tips_glan... It doesn't magically fix human nature, which prioritizes immediate needs over very distant ones.

awt 12y ago
I suppose that would work if you trust the consumer price index. My own experience belies reported low inflation.
kasey_junk 12y ago
TIPS are not normally considered "liquid" (at least not as liquid as cash, which is the standard most people have) as they have minimum terms of ownership.