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> Please do us all a favor and let us know who they are beyond "a YC startup" so that none of us find ourselves in your shoes. Two other reasons for considerin

by sheetjs 12y ago

> Please do us all a favor and let us know who they are beyond "a YC startup" so that none of us find ourselves in your shoes. Two other reasons for considering revealing the name: 1) a casual bystander might see this and conclude that all YC companies behave in this way, which hurts the other companies. 2) PG and other partners at YC read HN, and there's a good chance that action can be taken if they know who is involved.

georgespencer 12y ago
"action can be taken" Come on. They didn't do anything wrong. They withdrew an offer of employment. 1. It could be performance related, and they just don't want to tell OP, 2. They realised quickly -- shock horror, things change quickly in startups -- that actually they don't need X guy they need Y guy. These things happen. In situations like this you can fire well: give explicit reasons, make sure the person knows you're going to give them a great reference, consider paying them a notice period in excess of what you're obligated to. But really they didn't do anything wrong, and I don't think naming and shaming them is going to solve anything.
- jowiar 12y ago
  > They withdrew an offer of employment. Doing this without compensation is ABSOLUTELY doing something wrong. Maybe not necessarily tortious, but certainly unethical and indicative of someone who should not be trusted in a business relationship. The YC company made a mistake and is sticking someone else with the bill. FWIW, There's a certain amount of "foreigners are expendable" mindset that seems to exist in the American tech sphere that might factor into this situation as well...
  - shampine 12y ago
    I had an offer withdrawn the day before I was supposed to get on a plane to move myself cross country. I had quit my job, broken my lease, etc. The company paid me a 6 week severance, even though I never worked a minute for them, just to compensate me for what I had given up.
    - Alupis 12y ago
      That was a very nice company. They were in no way obligated to do any of that. You chose to break your lease on a gamble that things would work out for you... obviously they didn't... that's just how it is.
      - pmiller2 12y ago
        I'm not a lawyer, but having quit a job, broken a lease, and literally packed up to move the next day, I think promissory estoppel might apply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel#Promissory_estoppel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel#Promissory_...
        sbalea 12y ago
        Yes, which is why they paid him 6 weeks. I am sure in the papers there there's a "no lawsuit" clause…
      - onedev 12y ago
        It appears to me you don't have a particularly good grasp of the laws and legal code surrounding these circumstances beyond cursory Wikipedia articles. Often the laws are much much more complex than they appear on the surface.
  - georgespencer 12y ago
    > certainly unethical and indicative of someone who should not be trusted in a business relationship Not necessarily. What if a major investor pulled out and they aren't going to have the capital available to hire this guy? What if hiring him meant not paying people who had been promised salaries after working for free? What if they could have hired him but others would have had to be fired? They certainly made a mistake, but we don't know why they did what they did. It's unlikely to be malicious "Let's just screw this guy", and far more likely to be for reasons that each one of us, if we were in their shoes, would consider to be very good.
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  >They withdrew an offer of employment. // I thought the OP said they hired him and then 1 week in to working he was told he should leave. If there was any package, like taking on the position would accrue shares and such then he's due that at least along with his weeks pay and his agreed/statutory notice period pay. The rest is probably down to local laws (both localities potentially if the company is operation in both).
- marcosdumay 12y ago
  Possibility #3 - They took a first look in months at the finantials, and don't want to tell anybody what they saw. If that's the case, they wouldn't pay anything anyway.
- poof131 12y ago
  They withdrew an offer of employment. They didn't withdraw an offer, they terminated someone who had accepted and was actively working for the company. They didn't do anything wrong. Yes, they did. Is it okay to let the OP go quickly because they made a mistake: no resources to deal with visa issues, wrong domain expertise, etc? Yes. Is it okay to do this without compensation, especially after rescinding other offers, working his personal network, etc? No! The OP din't just do some code, he worked his professional network and went out on a limb for this startup. They screwed him, probably for the right reasons, but they need to admit the mistake and make the OP right.
  - guybrushT 12y ago
    he worked his professional network and went out on a limb for this startup. Some in my network (former consulting clients and business friends) ended up buying the service. So the company benefited in a tangible way (real $'s). I worked as if this was "my company". So yeah, I do feel screwed for the reasons you say and more...
    - nobodysfool2 12y ago
      So they got rid of you because you had an equity stake? And by giving up your equity they could keep the money for themselves... yea, you got screwed.
  - georgespencer 12y ago
    > They didn't withdraw an offer, they terminated someone who had accepted and was actively working for the company. You're right. It's even worse for OP: he just got canned. > Yes, they did. Is it okay to let the OP go quickly because they made a mistake: no resources to deal with visa issues, wrong domain expertise, etc? Yes. Agreed. > Is it okay to do this without compensation, especially after rescinding other offers, working his personal network, etc? No! He took a job, and got fired. Every time you take a job you rescind other offers. Every time you get fired you probably look back and think "damn I wish I'd taken one of those other offers". The proximity is the issue here, and the insinuating that they could have known this earlier / not made the hire in the first place. > The OP din't just do some code, he worked his professional network and went out on a limb for this startup. He didn't go out on a limb, he had a job there as you point out. He was a salaried employee.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
enraged_camel 12y ago
Could he send a private email to PG and partners at YC? Not as a complaint but more like, "hey, just a heads up, this just happened at one of the companies you guys sponsored." I don't know anything about investing in startups but common sense would suggest that this would raise some red flags.
- yaur 12y ago
  I would talk to a lawyer before doing this... see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference
  - Spoom 12y ago
    In what way would telling the truth in a private email constitute tortious interference?
    - acveilleux 12y ago
      Given the US, talking to a lawyer first is pretty much invariably the smarter thing to do. Even without going this far, you can make statements that then negatively impact your bargaining position later on.
    - rbobby 12y ago
      The "truth" is only what can be proved in court. Lots of folks have been tripped up by that before... so be careful. In this specific case the legal is likely very low. It's a startup and it's unlikely they have money to fund a lawsuit. Plus there's that whole "he's from another country" bit which would make collecting on a judgment pretty damn hard.
  - davelnewton 12y ago
    I don't see how this applies.
    - yaur 12y ago
      Assuming that the OP has a reasonably standard employment agreement, he may well be breaking it by contacting their investors (there is the tort). Assuming that he doesn't want the job back, why would he contact them other than to disrupt the relationship between YC and his former employer? IANAL, but the basic elements seem like they are there and I wouldn't even consider doing something like this without getting legal advice first.
duck 12y ago
It is pretty easy to find the YC company if you just look at his comment history and do a search or two. Which... is why you should aways use a throwaway account if you don't want people to figure this stuff out.
- swombat 12y ago
  Actually he has no comments outside of this thread that is less than 91 days ago, so it's not so easy at all.
  - justguessingbut 12y ago
    Look at his startup idea that's hosted on appspot.com - the route to the YC company is found easily from there, with a couple of creative web searches.
  - duck 12y ago
    As justguessingbut suggested, you can find a domain name from project he worked on, and thus his real name, and from there a search will lead you to angel list which links everything together with dates that match with the op's story. I was able to do it all in less than 5 minutes without anything but a browser and I'm slow... so I would call that really easy.
davemel37 12y ago
Even if you take these into consideration, a more appropriate reaction would be to say, "if you are currently in talks with a YC company for employment, or were hired in the last few weeks, drop me a line with the name of the company and I'll reply privately to you with a yes or no." Same goes for PG or YC Partners, just say, "if you drop me a line saying you want to deal with this, contact me and we can discuss it and I'll see if it makes sense to disclose it."
- guybrushT 12y ago
  "if you are currently in talks with a YC company for employment, or were hired in the last few weeks, drop me a line with the name of the company and I'll reply privately to you with a yes or no." Yes... and Yes.
- Scuttles 12y ago
  This is absurd guys. We have one guy's story, from his perspective. For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive. The founders had a reason to terminate him - be it what others would call a "good reason" or otherwise. Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of? What will happen? Will YC yank funding over this? I hope not -- that would set a dangerous precedent and make me, for one, that much less willing to pursue YC funding. If the founders didn't want the OP before -- they especially aren't going to want him now that all this has occurred and threats about getting YC involved etc. The bottom line -- you can be terminated for any reason, even if it's the color of your shirt on that particular day. Does that make it "right"? Well, that's a perspective thing.
  - poof131 12y ago
    "For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive." Working his network to help get a startup's first few customers at large, brand name companies? I'd hardly call that unproductive. In fact, if they iterate product dev on one of these customers, find that perfect product market fit, and scale; well, I'd say he played a roll in their success. "Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of?" The issue is the manner in which the OP was terminated. The company could be totally justified letting him go, just not in the manner in which they did it. "you can be terminated for any reason... Does that make it "right"? Well, that's a perspective thing." One, you can't be terminated for any reason. Two, we are seeing the perspective of public opinion and unfortunately it is reflecting negatively on YC since people don't have a more specific target. Everyone has a 'right' to choose who they work for. Three, getting terminated is a little more than just perspective. It is an event which can have significant repercussions for a person: mortgage payments, kid's school costs, etc.
Alupis 12y ago
I assume you are in California. California has At-Will employment -- so they can hire and fire you for any reason whenever they want. "You weren't a good fit", "You didn't think Big enough", "You didn't produce enough", etc etc etc. Coming on here and ranting and trying to bring some action against the startup is not a good way to handle this. You feel wronged -- I'm sure the founders feel it was a good business decision. Sorry this happened to you... but Startups are very volatile. It could have been worse.
- jowiar 12y ago
  > they can hire and fire you for any reason whenever they want Legally? Sure. Ethically? No. > I'm sure the founders feel it was a good business decision. The next founders who contemplate pulling a cowardly stunt like this shouldn't feel it to be a good business decision. As it stands, this reflects terribly YC and its startups as a whole.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    What would reflect worse on YC is them compelling a startup to keep a bad hire who could ultimately cost the business dearly. Hiring for first stage startups is critically important -- ie. it can make or break the company. If the OP wasn't going to work out for any reason, then it was appropriate to cut him loose as soon as possible, instead of dragging it out.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      None of this reflects on YC. People on HN have a weird understanding of how much control YC has over portfolio companies --- which, in reality, is practically none whatsoever. YC can't compel startups to do anything. Presumably if they could, they'd compel all the companies to ship earlier.
      - dennisgorelik 12y ago
        Do many YC companies still fail to ship early?

by sheetjs 12y ago

georgespencer 12y ago

"action can be taken" Come on. They didn't do anything wrong. They withdrew an offer of employment. 1. It could be performance related, and they just don't want to tell OP, 2. They realised quickly -- shock horror, things change quickly in startups -- that actually they don't need X guy they need Y guy. These things happen. In situations like this you can fire well: give explicit reasons, make sure the person knows you're going to give them a great reference, consider paying them a notice period in excess of what you're obligated to. But really they didn't do anything wrong, and I don't think naming and shaming them is going to solve anything.

jowiar 12y ago
> They withdrew an offer of employment. Doing this without compensation is ABSOLUTELY doing something wrong. Maybe not necessarily tortious, but certainly unethical and indicative of someone who should not be trusted in a business relationship. The YC company made a mistake and is sticking someone else with the bill. FWIW, There's a certain amount of "foreigners are expendable" mindset that seems to exist in the American tech sphere that might factor into this situation as well...
- shampine 12y ago
  I had an offer withdrawn the day before I was supposed to get on a plane to move myself cross country. I had quit my job, broken my lease, etc. The company paid me a 6 week severance, even though I never worked a minute for them, just to compensate me for what I had given up.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    That was a very nice company. They were in no way obligated to do any of that. You chose to break your lease on a gamble that things would work out for you... obviously they didn't... that's just how it is.
    - pmiller2 12y ago
      I'm not a lawyer, but having quit a job, broken a lease, and literally packed up to move the next day, I think promissory estoppel might apply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel#Promissory_estoppel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_estoppel#Promissory_...
      - sbalea 12y ago
        Yes, which is why they paid him 6 weeks. I am sure in the papers there there's a "no lawsuit" clause…
    - onedev 12y ago
      It appears to me you don't have a particularly good grasp of the laws and legal code surrounding these circumstances beyond cursory Wikipedia articles. Often the laws are much much more complex than they appear on the surface.
- georgespencer 12y ago
  > certainly unethical and indicative of someone who should not be trusted in a business relationship Not necessarily. What if a major investor pulled out and they aren't going to have the capital available to hire this guy? What if hiring him meant not paying people who had been promised salaries after working for free? What if they could have hired him but others would have had to be fired? They certainly made a mistake, but we don't know why they did what they did. It's unlikely to be malicious "Let's just screw this guy", and far more likely to be for reasons that each one of us, if we were in their shoes, would consider to be very good.
pbhjpbhj 12y ago
>They withdrew an offer of employment. // I thought the OP said they hired him and then 1 week in to working he was told he should leave. If there was any package, like taking on the position would accrue shares and such then he's due that at least along with his weeks pay and his agreed/statutory notice period pay. The rest is probably down to local laws (both localities potentially if the company is operation in both).
marcosdumay 12y ago
Possibility #3 - They took a first look in months at the finantials, and don't want to tell anybody what they saw. If that's the case, they wouldn't pay anything anyway.
poof131 12y ago
They withdrew an offer of employment. They didn't withdraw an offer, they terminated someone who had accepted and was actively working for the company. They didn't do anything wrong. Yes, they did. Is it okay to let the OP go quickly because they made a mistake: no resources to deal with visa issues, wrong domain expertise, etc? Yes. Is it okay to do this without compensation, especially after rescinding other offers, working his personal network, etc? No! The OP din't just do some code, he worked his professional network and went out on a limb for this startup. They screwed him, probably for the right reasons, but they need to admit the mistake and make the OP right.
- guybrushT 12y ago
  he worked his professional network and went out on a limb for this startup. Some in my network (former consulting clients and business friends) ended up buying the service. So the company benefited in a tangible way (real $'s). I worked as if this was "my company". So yeah, I do feel screwed for the reasons you say and more...
  - nobodysfool2 12y ago
    So they got rid of you because you had an equity stake? And by giving up your equity they could keep the money for themselves... yea, you got screwed.
- georgespencer 12y ago
  > They didn't withdraw an offer, they terminated someone who had accepted and was actively working for the company. You're right. It's even worse for OP: he just got canned. > Yes, they did. Is it okay to let the OP go quickly because they made a mistake: no resources to deal with visa issues, wrong domain expertise, etc? Yes. Agreed. > Is it okay to do this without compensation, especially after rescinding other offers, working his personal network, etc? No! He took a job, and got fired. Every time you take a job you rescind other offers. Every time you get fired you probably look back and think "damn I wish I'd taken one of those other offers". The proximity is the issue here, and the insinuating that they could have known this earlier / not made the hire in the first place. > The OP din't just do some code, he worked his professional network and went out on a limb for this startup. He didn't go out on a limb, he had a job there as you point out. He was a salaried employee.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

enraged_camel 12y ago

Could he send a private email to PG and partners at YC? Not as a complaint but more like, "hey, just a heads up, this just happened at one of the companies you guys sponsored." I don't know anything about investing in startups but common sense would suggest that this would raise some red flags.

yaur 12y ago
I would talk to a lawyer before doing this... see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference
- Spoom 12y ago
  In what way would telling the truth in a private email constitute tortious interference?
  - acveilleux 12y ago
    Given the US, talking to a lawyer first is pretty much invariably the smarter thing to do. Even without going this far, you can make statements that then negatively impact your bargaining position later on.
  - rbobby 12y ago
    The "truth" is only what can be proved in court. Lots of folks have been tripped up by that before... so be careful. In this specific case the legal is likely very low. It's a startup and it's unlikely they have money to fund a lawsuit. Plus there's that whole "he's from another country" bit which would make collecting on a judgment pretty damn hard.
- davelnewton 12y ago
  I don't see how this applies.
  - yaur 12y ago
    Assuming that the OP has a reasonably standard employment agreement, he may well be breaking it by contacting their investors (there is the tort). Assuming that he doesn't want the job back, why would he contact them other than to disrupt the relationship between YC and his former employer? IANAL, but the basic elements seem like they are there and I wouldn't even consider doing something like this without getting legal advice first.

duck 12y ago

It is pretty easy to find the YC company if you just look at his comment history and do a search or two. Which... is why you should aways use a throwaway account if you don't want people to figure this stuff out.

swombat 12y ago
Actually he has no comments outside of this thread that is less than 91 days ago, so it's not so easy at all.
- justguessingbut 12y ago
  Look at his startup idea that's hosted on appspot.com - the route to the YC company is found easily from there, with a couple of creative web searches.
- duck 12y ago
  As justguessingbut suggested, you can find a domain name from project he worked on, and thus his real name, and from there a search will lead you to angel list which links everything together with dates that match with the op's story. I was able to do it all in less than 5 minutes without anything but a browser and I'm slow... so I would call that really easy.

davemel37 12y ago

Even if you take these into consideration, a more appropriate reaction would be to say, "if you are currently in talks with a YC company for employment, or were hired in the last few weeks, drop me a line with the name of the company and I'll reply privately to you with a yes or no." Same goes for PG or YC Partners, just say, "if you drop me a line saying you want to deal with this, contact me and we can discuss it and I'll see if it makes sense to disclose it."

guybrushT 12y ago
"if you are currently in talks with a YC company for employment, or were hired in the last few weeks, drop me a line with the name of the company and I'll reply privately to you with a yes or no." Yes... and Yes.
Scuttles 12y ago
This is absurd guys. We have one guy's story, from his perspective. For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive. The founders had a reason to terminate him - be it what others would call a "good reason" or otherwise. Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of? What will happen? Will YC yank funding over this? I hope not -- that would set a dangerous precedent and make me, for one, that much less willing to pursue YC funding. If the founders didn't want the OP before -- they especially aren't going to want him now that all this has occurred and threats about getting YC involved etc. The bottom line -- you can be terminated for any reason, even if it's the color of your shirt on that particular day. Does that make it "right"? Well, that's a perspective thing.
- poof131 12y ago
  "For all we know, the OP sat around and did nothing productive." Working his network to help get a startup's first few customers at large, brand name companies? I'd hardly call that unproductive. In fact, if they iterate product dev on one of these customers, find that perfect product market fit, and scale; well, I'd say he played a roll in their success. "Perhaps there were issues the OP is completely unaware of?" The issue is the manner in which the OP was terminated. The company could be totally justified letting him go, just not in the manner in which they did it. "you can be terminated for any reason... Does that make it "right"? Well, that's a perspective thing." One, you can't be terminated for any reason. Two, we are seeing the perspective of public opinion and unfortunately it is reflecting negatively on YC since people don't have a more specific target. Everyone has a 'right' to choose who they work for. Three, getting terminated is a little more than just perspective. It is an event which can have significant repercussions for a person: mortgage payments, kid's school costs, etc.

Alupis 12y ago

I assume you are in California. California has At-Will employment -- so they can hire and fire you for any reason whenever they want. "You weren't a good fit", "You didn't think Big enough", "You didn't produce enough", etc etc etc. Coming on here and ranting and trying to bring some action against the startup is not a good way to handle this. You feel wronged -- I'm sure the founders feel it was a good business decision. Sorry this happened to you... but Startups are very volatile. It could have been worse.

jowiar 12y ago
> they can hire and fire you for any reason whenever they want Legally? Sure. Ethically? No. > I'm sure the founders feel it was a good business decision. The next founders who contemplate pulling a cowardly stunt like this shouldn't feel it to be a good business decision. As it stands, this reflects terribly YC and its startups as a whole.
- Alupis 12y ago
  What would reflect worse on YC is them compelling a startup to keep a bad hire who could ultimately cost the business dearly. Hiring for first stage startups is critically important -- ie. it can make or break the company. If the OP wasn't going to work out for any reason, then it was appropriate to cut him loose as soon as possible, instead of dragging it out.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    None of this reflects on YC. People on HN have a weird understanding of how much control YC has over portfolio companies --- which, in reality, is practically none whatsoever. YC can't compel startups to do anything. Presumably if they could, they'd compel all the companies to ship earlier.
    - dennisgorelik 12y ago
      Do many YC companies still fail to ship early?