6 ms·

Possibly because the cost/benefit just isn't there. In the UK, the data shows that speeding (excessive speed for the conditions above the speed limit) is the p

by growse 12y ago

Possibly because the cost/benefit just isn't there. In the UK, the data shows that speeding (excessive speed for the conditions above the speed limit) is the primary cause in single digit percentage of accidents. I believe there's data from 1996 and 2007 for this, will dig it out when I'm not on mobile. If you want to spend money on accident prevention, there's much better things to target than speeding.

selectodude 12y ago
It's not about saving lives. It's about revenue generation.
- MichaelDickens 12y ago
  Speed limit laws don't exist to generate revenue. They exist to disincentivize speeding. If speed limit laws didn't exist, can you imagine lawmakers saying, "We need more money. Hey, I know! Let's charge people money for driving over a certain speed!"
  - shoeless 12y ago
    The manufacturers of speed cameras take a percentage, and it is a windfall for the municipality. I live in an area where stationary speed cameras are around every corner (Montgomery Co, Maryland). I've lived here long enough to know that there's no way the county would spend money on the equipment and man power to maintain and operate that network, just to break even for the sake of safety.
  - pyre 12y ago
    The laws aren't put into place with the "let's generate revenue" mentality, but their enforcement is definitely done with respect to that mentality. If it's all about getting people to slow down, then: 1) Why aren't law enforcement more focused on getting people to slow down than writing tickets? 2) Why do traffic cops have monthly quotas for tickets? 3) In places where monthly quotas are against the law, why do 'performance revues' of traffic cops only focus on '# of tickets' as the largest performance metric? (basically a quota by another name) 4) Why is it so easy to bargain down a speeding ticket in a large city, whereas in a small town they are only willing to haggle on the points on your license (hint: because they still want you money)?
    - saosebastiao 12y ago
      How is a ticket quota any different than a SLOC quota or a SLOC analysis in a performance review?. Quantity of tickets issued is a productivity metric, as flawed as it is. Their existence does not imply that tickets exist for revenue.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
  - evilduck 12y ago
    Just like no community has ever been found to be shortening yellow light timers after setting up red light cameras, and no cops ever dubiously search cars for drugs so they can seize assets. Just because they weren't conceived for a purpose doesn't mean that's not how they're used. Speed enforcement is very frequently performed by small town cops sitting on highways that are just barely in their jurisdiction. They're doing it for money, plain and simple. See https://www.google.com/maps/preview?client=safari&q=hampton+florida&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x88e6013baa6175d7:0x62db8f3fd3689569,Hampton,+FL&gl=us&ei=aXXaU-atAdTaoASho4G4AQ&sqi=2&ved=0CJsBEPIBMA8 https://www.google.com/maps/preview?client=safari&q=hampton+... for proof of this.
  - selectodude 12y ago
    >They exist to disincentivize speeding Where I live, in Chicago, the speed limits are so low on some freeways that 91-98 percent of people are going over the speed limit, and the average speed is over 70mph. So everyone, including the police it seems, agrees that the speed limits here are not for my safety, but exist as a way for the officers to cherry pick essentially any car they want and write them a ticket.
  - omegaham 12y ago
    The idea of a speed limit is sound. But there are organizations that work to game the system. A great example is the multitude of sleepy towns right next to highways. They have a police force that is exclusively utilized on the five miles (or less) of highway that officially fall within the town limits, writing tickets to people who pass through. For example, Lindale, Ohio has a population of about 170 people and collects about $800,000 a year from speeding tickets. My mother got snagged in one of these in Virginia a while back - they have a hill where the speed limit drops from 65 to 45 at the bottom of it, with a specially planted copse of trees where the police sit with their detectors. A quarter mile down the road, they have a specially built parking lot for people to get their tickets. They even provide envelopes and stamps for people to send their checks! Nice people.
    - LordKano 12y ago
      Virginia is also a state that bans the use of RADAR/LIDAR detectors. I suspect that this business model is in trouble if GPS makers begin to track speed-limit information and pass that along to their users.
  - spott 12y ago
    Speed limit laws started as a safety thing, then they were a car efficiency thing (during the 70's oil crisis). The problem is that the municipalities started to increasingly depend on the income from traffic enforcement. No, lawmakers don't say "Hey, I know! Let's charge people money for driving over a certain speed!", they instead say: "lets install these red light cameras on this intersection that doesn't see a lot of accidents.", or "this long straight stretch of highway, with few accidents, but lots of speeding should be better policed". The enforcement of laws becomes more about making money from the tickets than from concerns about safety.
- Liesmith 12y ago
  Don't be ridiculous, If it was about revenue there would just be more toll booths.
  - kaoD 12y ago
    Tolls booths are obviously about the revenue, which make the voter angry. Not that I support his claim, just refuting yours.
  - mortov 12y ago
    That would only be the case where people accept tolls & toll booths on roads as an acceptable thing. Sure, they're common in Canada and the US but in some other countries they lead to years of civil disobedience, protests and eventual scrapping by newly elected governments : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skye_Bridge#Toll_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skye_Bridge#Toll_controversy Speed fines have the semi-respectibility claim of trying to reduce accidents/dangers on the road (with some validity).
    - Scoundreller 12y ago
      I'm waiting for someone to calculate the greenhouse gas emissions created by toll booths.
saosebastiao 12y ago
I have yet to get into an accident, but I actively avoid walking across several streets in Seattle because of a combination of entitlement thinking (This road is mine because I'm in a car!), and pervasive speeding. I'm not the only one...I recently found out almost nobody on my side of a local road will cross the road due the same problem. The road, therefore, has become a barrier to commerce and has split a community in two. Preventing accidents isn't the only reason to enforce traffic laws.
- quux 12y ago
  There aren't any traffic lights and crosswalks on this street?
  - saosebastiao 12y ago
    There are some crosswalks, 8 blocks away from each other. No lights for at least a mile. In WA state, every intersection is automatically a legal crosswalk with pedestrian right of way (unless marked with a "No Pedestrian Crossing" sign), but the lack of enforcement combined with the high speeds makes that right of way effectively meaningless.
    - e40 12y ago
      I walk a lot in CA. Not long ago I saw a cop not yield to a pregnant woman pushing a baby in a stroller, in a 4 lane road. She was in the crosswalk, clearly marked. There was no light or stop sign, but she was in the middle of the 4 lanes when the cop drove past her in the closest lane. I really couldn't believe what I was seeing. When the cops don't even respect the laws, the laws are meaningless.
      - kelnos 12y ago
        This doesn't surprise me. I walk a lot too, and I constantly see cops flip their lights on for the few seconds required to make an illegal left turn, run a red light, etc., and then turn them right back off.
Retric 12y ago
%of total accidents is amost meaningless. % of accident deaths or even %of totaled cars would be a much better indicator. A parking lot fender bender is vary different than an 80MPH head on collision. Also, even if speeding is not the direct cause of an accident it increases the damage resulting from an accident. PS: It has been estimated that hard limiting private vehicles to 40MPH would have saved over 2 Million lives in the US. Not that I am promoting such a low speed limit but people really don't understand the dangers of speed. Every year after 1945 at least 30,000 people died with a peak well over 50,000.
rrreese 12y ago
New Zealand keeps fairly good records which can be downloaded here: http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motor-Vehicle-Crashes-2012/Motor-Vehicle-Crashes-2012-Section-2-Casualties-and-crashes.pdf http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documen... page 62 lists the percentage of crashes, crashes with injuries and crashes with fatalities. Speed is constantly found in around 30% of fatal crashes.
- nucleardog 12y ago
  Saying speed is found as a factor in around 30% of fatal crashes doesn't really say much as to the effectiveness of these sorts of measures. I mean, right off the bat I have to ask - what is the overlap between "people in fatal crashes with speed as a factor" and "people who receive automated speeding tickets". I think as a percentage it would be unimaginably tiny which supports the assertion that it is misplaced enforcement if safety is actually the goal.
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  And when you consider that more than 30% of drivers are typically speeding on many/most roads...
  - Rapzid 12y ago
    If only we were so lucky. 30% of drivers in NZ drive 20km/h below the speed limit on the motorway is more like it :|
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
Thrymr 12y ago
Even if it's not the primary cause, accidents are much more dangerous at higher speeds. It also makes reaction times shorter for avoiding other things.

by growse 12y ago

selectodude 12y ago

It's not about saving lives. It's about revenue generation.

MichaelDickens 12y ago
Speed limit laws don't exist to generate revenue. They exist to disincentivize speeding. If speed limit laws didn't exist, can you imagine lawmakers saying, "We need more money. Hey, I know! Let's charge people money for driving over a certain speed!"
- shoeless 12y ago
  The manufacturers of speed cameras take a percentage, and it is a windfall for the municipality. I live in an area where stationary speed cameras are around every corner (Montgomery Co, Maryland). I've lived here long enough to know that there's no way the county would spend money on the equipment and man power to maintain and operate that network, just to break even for the sake of safety.
- pyre 12y ago
  The laws aren't put into place with the "let's generate revenue" mentality, but their enforcement is definitely done with respect to that mentality. If it's all about getting people to slow down, then: 1) Why aren't law enforcement more focused on getting people to slow down than writing tickets? 2) Why do traffic cops have monthly quotas for tickets? 3) In places where monthly quotas are against the law, why do 'performance revues' of traffic cops only focus on '# of tickets' as the largest performance metric? (basically a quota by another name) 4) Why is it so easy to bargain down a speeding ticket in a large city, whereas in a small town they are only willing to haggle on the points on your license (hint: because they still want you money)?
  - saosebastiao 12y ago
    How is a ticket quota any different than a SLOC quota or a SLOC analysis in a performance review?. Quantity of tickets issued is a productivity metric, as flawed as it is. Their existence does not imply that tickets exist for revenue.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- evilduck 12y ago
  Just like no community has ever been found to be shortening yellow light timers after setting up red light cameras, and no cops ever dubiously search cars for drugs so they can seize assets. Just because they weren't conceived for a purpose doesn't mean that's not how they're used. Speed enforcement is very frequently performed by small town cops sitting on highways that are just barely in their jurisdiction. They're doing it for money, plain and simple. See https://www.google.com/maps/preview?client=safari&q=hampton+florida&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x88e6013baa6175d7:0x62db8f3fd3689569,Hampton,+FL&gl=us&ei=aXXaU-atAdTaoASho4G4AQ&sqi=2&ved=0CJsBEPIBMA8 https://www.google.com/maps/preview?client=safari&q=hampton+... for proof of this.
- selectodude 12y ago
  >They exist to disincentivize speeding Where I live, in Chicago, the speed limits are so low on some freeways that 91-98 percent of people are going over the speed limit, and the average speed is over 70mph. So everyone, including the police it seems, agrees that the speed limits here are not for my safety, but exist as a way for the officers to cherry pick essentially any car they want and write them a ticket.
- omegaham 12y ago
  The idea of a speed limit is sound. But there are organizations that work to game the system. A great example is the multitude of sleepy towns right next to highways. They have a police force that is exclusively utilized on the five miles (or less) of highway that officially fall within the town limits, writing tickets to people who pass through. For example, Lindale, Ohio has a population of about 170 people and collects about $800,000 a year from speeding tickets. My mother got snagged in one of these in Virginia a while back - they have a hill where the speed limit drops from 65 to 45 at the bottom of it, with a specially planted copse of trees where the police sit with their detectors. A quarter mile down the road, they have a specially built parking lot for people to get their tickets. They even provide envelopes and stamps for people to send their checks! Nice people.
  - LordKano 12y ago
    Virginia is also a state that bans the use of RADAR/LIDAR detectors. I suspect that this business model is in trouble if GPS makers begin to track speed-limit information and pass that along to their users.
- spott 12y ago
  Speed limit laws started as a safety thing, then they were a car efficiency thing (during the 70's oil crisis). The problem is that the municipalities started to increasingly depend on the income from traffic enforcement. No, lawmakers don't say "Hey, I know! Let's charge people money for driving over a certain speed!", they instead say: "lets install these red light cameras on this intersection that doesn't see a lot of accidents.", or "this long straight stretch of highway, with few accidents, but lots of speeding should be better policed". The enforcement of laws becomes more about making money from the tickets than from concerns about safety.
Liesmith 12y ago
Don't be ridiculous, If it was about revenue there would just be more toll booths.
- kaoD 12y ago
  Tolls booths are obviously about the revenue, which make the voter angry. Not that I support his claim, just refuting yours.
- mortov 12y ago
  That would only be the case where people accept tolls & toll booths on roads as an acceptable thing. Sure, they're common in Canada and the US but in some other countries they lead to years of civil disobedience, protests and eventual scrapping by newly elected governments : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skye_Bridge#Toll_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skye_Bridge#Toll_controversy Speed fines have the semi-respectibility claim of trying to reduce accidents/dangers on the road (with some validity).
  - Scoundreller 12y ago
    I'm waiting for someone to calculate the greenhouse gas emissions created by toll booths.

saosebastiao 12y ago

I have yet to get into an accident, but I actively avoid walking across several streets in Seattle because of a combination of entitlement thinking (This road is mine because I'm in a car!), and pervasive speeding. I'm not the only one...I recently found out almost nobody on my side of a local road will cross the road due the same problem. The road, therefore, has become a barrier to commerce and has split a community in two. Preventing accidents isn't the only reason to enforce traffic laws.

quux 12y ago
There aren't any traffic lights and crosswalks on this street?
- saosebastiao 12y ago
  There are some crosswalks, 8 blocks away from each other. No lights for at least a mile. In WA state, every intersection is automatically a legal crosswalk with pedestrian right of way (unless marked with a "No Pedestrian Crossing" sign), but the lack of enforcement combined with the high speeds makes that right of way effectively meaningless.
  - e40 12y ago
    I walk a lot in CA. Not long ago I saw a cop not yield to a pregnant woman pushing a baby in a stroller, in a 4 lane road. She was in the crosswalk, clearly marked. There was no light or stop sign, but she was in the middle of the 4 lanes when the cop drove past her in the closest lane. I really couldn't believe what I was seeing. When the cops don't even respect the laws, the laws are meaningless.
    - kelnos 12y ago
      This doesn't surprise me. I walk a lot too, and I constantly see cops flip their lights on for the few seconds required to make an illegal left turn, run a red light, etc., and then turn them right back off.

Retric 12y ago

%of total accidents is amost meaningless. % of accident deaths or even %of totaled cars would be a much better indicator. A parking lot fender bender is vary different than an 80MPH head on collision. Also, even if speeding is not the direct cause of an accident it increases the damage resulting from an accident. PS: It has been estimated that hard limiting private vehicles to 40MPH would have saved over 2 Million lives in the US. Not that I am promoting such a low speed limit but people really don't understand the dangers of speed. Every year after 1945 at least 30,000 people died with a peak well over 50,000.

rrreese 12y ago

New Zealand keeps fairly good records which can be downloaded here: http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motor-Vehicle-Crashes-2012/Motor-Vehicle-Crashes-2012-Section-2-Casualties-and-crashes.pdf http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documen... page 62 lists the percentage of crashes, crashes with injuries and crashes with fatalities. Speed is constantly found in around 30% of fatal crashes.

nucleardog 12y ago
Saying speed is found as a factor in around 30% of fatal crashes doesn't really say much as to the effectiveness of these sorts of measures. I mean, right off the bat I have to ask - what is the overlap between "people in fatal crashes with speed as a factor" and "people who receive automated speeding tickets". I think as a percentage it would be unimaginably tiny which supports the assertion that it is misplaced enforcement if safety is actually the goal.
CamperBob2 12y ago
And when you consider that more than 30% of drivers are typically speeding on many/most roads...
- Rapzid 12y ago
  If only we were so lucky. 30% of drivers in NZ drive 20km/h below the speed limit on the motorway is more like it :|
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

Thrymr 12y ago

Even if it's not the primary cause, accidents are much more dangerous at higher speeds. It also makes reaction times shorter for avoiding other things.