17 ms·

A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013)

354 points by ahris 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
th0br0 12y ago
This is a beautiful article. Thank you for sharing.
bsaul 12y ago
Does anyone else here finds that there is disproportionnate amount of articles related to death, depression and mental illness that reaches the frontpage of HN ? I'm not saying it's necesseraly a bad thing, but it makes me wonder about the effects working in IT might have on mental health.
- conistonwater 12y ago
  One might also think that such articles are underrepresented everywhere else. In fact, seeing them getting voted up is some evidence that people actually want to read them.
  - tim333 12y ago
    It might be that software guys see depression and think - Ah, a software problem in the head, how can we fix that? Unlike most of the rest of the world.
- brixon 12y ago
  I think you are just noticing them. I feel like I see more of the "I work 5 minutes a day and I'm more productive than you", "unlimited vacation is awesome", or "I don't want money, I just want to surf more"
- hueving 12y ago
  No, but perhaps you taking notice of them is a reflection of your sensitivity to the topic. The ones I see way to many of are about how amazing cities are and how crappy cars/suburbia is.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- milesf 12y ago
  I've noticed the same trend. IT/tech workers are not known for their balanced work lives (eating healthy, exercise, not working too much).
xrd 12y ago
Stunning.
oldspiceman 12y ago
Short Vice documentary on the forest mentioned in the article. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8
jessaustin 12y ago
By tradition, suicide can absolve guilt and cancel debt, can restore honor and prove loyalty. In this respect I feel Japan's culture is superior to ours in the USA. For example, I felt Mark Madoff's suicide was entirely appropriate, a final act that put the rest of his life in a more dignified context. Yet every article one reads about it treats the suicide as an additional disgrace, yet another horrible thing we can blame on Mark and his father.
- nsxwolf 12y ago
  Holy shit.
- a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
  I think it ties into the differences between a guilt culture vs. a shame culture, as those terms relate to the anthropological research. In the western mind, you live suffering with guilt for your actions. In the east you have more irredeemable shame.
- chris_mahan 12y ago
  My wife is Japanese (born and raised there) and she does not look at it that way. She says people who commit suicide are losers can't apologize properly and work hard to make up for their mistake, or people who don't have the guts to weather through the hard times. Also, the whole samurai/bushido thing essentially doesn't exist for anyone under fifty over there. I went to Japan with my family in January, and I had a wonderful time, by the way. Eat at Joyfull, so cheap, so good! ( http://www.joyfull.co.jp/ http://www.joyfull.co.jp/ -- see breakfast menu: http://www.joyfull.co.jp/menu/morning.html http://www.joyfull.co.jp/menu/morning.html )
  - sosborn 12y ago
    No offense, but making trip to Japan and eating at Joyful is like going to the Bay area and eating at Denny's.
    - philsnow 12y ago
dragontamer 12y ago
The Hikikomori has become a standard anime trope. Starting in 2009 in Anohana, the main character is a recovering Hikikomori (who went through quite a depressing story that caused him to withdraw from society). This last spring, there were at least three major animes revolving around the concept. "Nanana's burried treasure", "No Game No Life", and "Mekakucity actors" all have title characters who are Hikikomoris. Hikikomori (shut-ins / NEETs) seem to be a real problem... real enough that they've entered Japanese Anime culture as a new character archetype. I don't have much Japanese exposure outside of anime, so I'm not going to draw conclusions based on this alone. But I thought I'd give my perspective. Everything seems to tie together: an economic downturn that prevents many young people from getting a job, the uptick in shut-in culture, and finally an uptick in the suicide rate... (which seem to only cause more Hikikomoris as their loved ones disappear and make life more difficult for those left behind...)
- Retric 12y ago
  It's a fairly common anime trope. 42 examples on: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hikikomori http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hikikomori
  - dragontamer 12y ago
    Common yes, but not as common as it has been in recent years. Three title-character Hikikomoris in a single anime season? Especially sine most of the examples before 2009 are not title characters. IE: You get stuff like a specific client for one episode of xxxHolic in older animes... or Haruhi who insulted normal people by calling them Hikikomoris. But in contrast to say, Spring 2014 animes, there are three title character Hikikomoris that play major roles in the anime. The concept has always been in anime, but very rarely has it been used so often for main characters.
- ranran876 12y ago
  Just to contrast your experience, I had a very interesting two month working near Tokyo. The whole time I was there I didn't see any anime, or hikkimori and the whole thing didn't resemble anime at all (though.. granted, I'm not an expert in the genre). The only places you saw anything anime related was at gambling establishments and certain districts of Tokyo. I think on the whole, that subculture is looked down upon - just like in the US. Most people just live boring normal middle class lives. I'm not denying that there is a problem, but I think it's not necessarily a statement about Japanese society as a whole. It's like if goth kids started slashing their wrists in large numbers. It might be a reflection of US society as a whole, or it might be a toxic subculture.
namDa 12y ago
The concluding paragraph was interesting to read. Not sure the legitimacy of the story but it is something to think about.
- josephjrobison 12y ago
  Reminds me of "The Rabbi's Dance" "The people of this town were all excited about the Rabbi’s visit for they knew that it was something rare and they looked forward to the holy man’s wisdom which they hoped would ease their suffering and their hard lives. So for weeks before he arrived, individuals reflected on what they would like to speak with him about, the questions they would like to pose and so on. They could hardly wait for the Rabbi to answer their urgent queries." Continued...http://basicindia.typepad.com/basicindia/2005/06/the_rabbis_danc.html http://basicindia.typepad.com/basicindia/2005/06/the_rabbis_...
kinotech 12y ago
It reminds me of a beautiful Brazilian film I've watched recently in NY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5hTIOCuwy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5hTIOCuwy4
hardmath123 12y ago
Amazing. Japanese culture is the only one I know of where suicide is encourage and respected—is there any reason for that?
- sjg007 12y ago
  Samurai?
- tixocloud 12y ago
  This might help your understanding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido#Seven_virtues_of_Bushid.C5.8D_.28as_visioned_by_Nitobe_Inazo.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido#Seven_virtues_of_Bushid... As I understand it, the Samurai live by the 7 virtues: - Rectitude - Courage - Benevolence - Respect - Honesty - Honour - Loyalty I wouldn't be surprised if these virtues continue to play a huge role in today's society. That said, I'm also not sure how serious people live by these virtues.
  - vacri 12y ago
    Read your link in more detail. The 7-virtue noble warrior-poets aren't actually how samurai behaved. That was a turn-of-last-century propaganda movement.
- scott_s 12y ago
  Hungarian culture also looks more positively on suicide than others. I learned this from Freakanomics, which did a very interesting episode on suicide: http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-suicide-paradox/ http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-po...
- whytaka 12y ago
  I'd been raised in a semi-Japanese home environment but wouldn't call myself an expert. Many people would point to the Bushido culture when it comes to the aura of honor surrounding suicide. However, I think it may go even deeper. From what I understand, Japan has never been a fully self-sufficient economy. The peasantry were always under some feudal rule and a lack of resources had been the norm. Tragic practises like carrying the elderly into the woods to be abandoned and die were not uncommon. The elderly knew when they had become more of a liability than an asset to the family and graciously accepted their fate.
Loughla 12y ago
The only thing I can't get over is how work focused all of the letters are. Sure, they all have family struggles, but they're less concerned about the particular struggles and more concerned about how that impacts their work. This article is phrased as if the entire Japanese culture is based on a disproportionate work-life balance to the extreme.
- tfigueroa 12y ago
  So it would seem. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi That kind of environment can spin out cases like hikikomori. You can see similar trends in the U.S. with respect to startups and overworking, to a smaller scale, usually in the form of "going off the grid."
- cphuntington97 12y ago
  Are things any different anywhere else? Our hunting-gathering days are over. We used to chop down wood for the fire; now, we go to work, and push a button on the wall to stay warm. To work is to live in modern society.
  - andyjdavis 12y ago
    That is certainly the norm but it is not universal. There are certainly individuals that do not follow this pattern but, unfortunately, you are unlikely to ever meet them if you have a more conventional existence. For example, I am a computer programmer, mid 30s, I have a wife and child and I work 20 hours a week, 25 absolute max. I've been working reduced hours for almost three years. I also work remotely so we spend most of our time in places like Thailand and Malaysia (warm, good food, low cost of living) although we will shortly be heading over to spend a few months in Europe. And we are not the only ones. Most of our social circle is composed of similar people. If you go places like Chiang Mai in Thailand it is crawling with westerners carving out an existence that involves a high quality of life and personal control over how much and when they perform income generating activities. Unfortunately if you are in the 9-5 routine yourself you will never meet any of us.
  - twfarland 12y ago
themodelplumber 12y ago
I used to live near the Tojimbo cliffs and have been thinking about the place (and what happens there) on and off since my first visit. I also really liked this NYT article, about a retired cop who made it his mission to stop suicide attempts at the cliffs. 222 lives had been saved as of late 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/world/asia/18japan.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/world/asia/18japan.html?_r...
- scott_s 12y ago
  "Mr. Shige says his approach to stopping suicides is quite simple: when he finds a likely person, he walks up and gently begins a conversation. The person, usually a man, quickly breaks down in tears, happy to find someone to listen to his problems." Genuine empathy can be both powerful and shocking.
  - boohoofoodoo 12y ago
    Agreed, http://www.smh.com.au/national/an-angel-walking-among-us-at-the-gap-20090731-e4f2.html http://www.smh.com.au/national/an-angel-walking-among-us-at-...
  - bradleysmith 12y ago
    unexpected empathy is always particularly moving, especially for the hopeless. It's a STRONG pattern interrupt to a negative view of the world around you, and really makes people question themselves.
- marquis 12y ago
  Another extraordinary story about a Suicide Catcher, this time in China. http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201005/suicide-catchers-nanjing-bridge-yangtze-river-mr-chen?printable=true http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201005/suicide-ca... "Mr. Chen would charge them like a dangerous man himself, wrestling, punching, kicking, doing whatever was necessary. 'I'm very confident in my physical strength,' he said. 'Since I have no psychological training, my job is to get that person off the bridge as quickly as possible.'"
- 12y ago
josephjrobison 12y ago
This is one of the most beautiful and hopeful things I've ever read.
apozem 12y ago
God damn. Sometimes I forget how powerful The New Yorker's writing can feel. Superb.
- lilsunnybee 12y ago
  The New Yorker has a pretty strong history of publishing often fascinating, thought-provoking stories. A journalist from Slate did a piece recently pointing out some of the standouts, since The New Yorker and it's archives are temporarily free until October i think. http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/07/22/new_yorker_online_free_for_three_months_what_should_you_read.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/07/22/new_yorker_on...
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
MarkPNeyer 12y ago
i used to struggle a lot with suicidal thoughts. i kept wanting to get out from the loneliness and general sense of "well what's the point? nothing i do really matters". i felt like the world was broken and alternated between trying to enjoy myself as much as i could, and wishing i could make things better. what helped me finally move past this was repeatedly trying and failing to kill myself. always someone would come by, or i'd change my mind, at the last minute. i internalized the idea that it's not possible for a person to experience their own death. i see it in terms of the multiverse; if someone dies in my timeline, their world track has diverged so far from mine that we cannot meaningfully exchange information. i see things like war and the holocaust as being more akin to network partitions than destroyed hardware. the big bang was the network splitting for the first time, and portions of it have been trying to reconnect ever since. i have no idea whether this is true or not, but it's .. being free from those thoughts immediately forces me to think "well if i'm stuck here, i have to make things work better for myself, since leaving apparently isn't an option." sometimes i think i DID successfully kill myself - years ago, on my first attempt in 2006 - and i'm in a purgatory now. i see stories of "life extension technology" being developed, and i think it's entirely plausible according to "mainstream science" that people my age will be able to live indefinitely. everyone else tells themselves "well its because of this new technology" and in the back of my mind, i keep thinking that i won't have a choice - i'll be alive forever because you can only die once. i'm sure this all sounds ridiculous to anyone hearing it, but honestly being able to put aside suicidal thoughts, and focus on improving my life, has been really, extremely helpful. it sounds like this guy has found another way (i.e. not involving believing immortality is the default state, or that you are already dead) to make it happen.
- bashinator 12y ago
  You might be interested in reading about quantum immortality.
  - MarkPNeyer 12y ago
    wow, thanks for that. i had no idea anyone else thought this way. interestingly enough, the first suicide attempt was in 2005. my favorite band at the time - because it was both optimistic and depressed at the same time - was 'the eels', fronted by the son of Hugh Everett, the physicist who developed the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. music and mathematics, poetry and prose. it comes whence it is headed, where it's going - no one knows.
unlimit 12y ago
The other thing that got me very curious is how did a monk develop heart disease. I mean he must have been very very active and probably eating healthy.
- michaelochurch 12y ago
  The other thing that got me very curious is how did a monk develop heart disease. Age and genetics. One will suffice, if not both. Plenty of people develop heart problems who eat well and keep active. Healthy living improves your odds considerably, but doesn't put you at zero risk.
- discreteevent 12y ago
  From the article it appears that he was hardly sleeping in order to keep up with responding to people. It also makes it clear that other people's anxiety was passing on to him. Chronic exhaustion and stress might be OK for a young man if it's part of an effort to break his mind/enlighten him. But long term it's not surprising that it would seriously affect someone's health.
- zhemao 12y ago
  As the article mentions, Buddhist monks in East Asia these days mostly don't follow the ascetic lifestyle of days past. They smoke, drink, eat meat. Some of them may even marry.
thisjepisje 12y ago
[Suicide rates] go down in wartime and go up again afterward. Why would that be?
- steveklabnik 12y ago
  I'm not a psychologist, so I won't comment on the _why_, but veterans have an extremely high suicide rate. http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2427 http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2427 (the PDF link has the data) > Of the 147,763 suicides reported in 21 states, 27,062 (18.3%) > were identified as having history of U.S. military service > on death certificates This article has some discussion on how this data is hard to collect: http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/22-veteran-suicides-a-day/ http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/22-veteran-suicides-a-day/ From that article: > A recent analysis by News21, an investigative multimedia > program for journalism students, found that the annual > suicide rate among veterans is about 30 for every 100,000 > of the population, compared with the civilian rate of 14 per > 100,000. I'd expect that after a war, you have a new population of people in this particular high-risk group...
  - thisjepisje 12y ago
    That's interesting, but what's puzzling me the most is how less people commit suicide during a war.
    - mrkurt 12y ago
      Total guess, but: Depression and anger are linked, and when I've been depressed it's often manifested as anger at myself. Sometimes, finding an outside focal point for anger can offer relief from depression. It is easier to find a focal point for anger that other people share, and war can be a common enemy for a large population.
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      > That's interesting, but what's puzzling me the most is how less people commit suicide during a war. Just speculating, but, I can immediately see two obvious potential contributing factors to lower suicide statistics (one of which isn't actually about reduced incidence of suicide, per se): during a war, there's a lot more opportunity for suicide-that-doesn't-get-categorized-as-suicide, and there is also a additional opportunity (compared to peacetime) for things that provide short-term, immediate purpose even if they don't deal with the underlying problems.
Estragon 12y ago
He had spent seven years sacrificing himself, driving himself to the point of breakdown, nearly to death, trying to help these people, and they didn’t care about him at all. What was the point? He knew that if you were suicidal it was difficult to understand other people’s problems, but still—he had been talking to some of these people for years, and now here he was dying and nobody cared. When I volunteered on a suicide hotline, the frequent callers were by far the most disheartening aspect of the job. I believe some of them had borderline personality disorder... at any rate they were highly manipulative, and a large part of the training for the job was about how to avoid being taken in / drained by them. There were one or two people who had figured out the duty roster for the call center, and you would be guaranteed a call from them if you were on duty... multiple hours-long calls, if you let them. The hotline didn't ban them unless they became sexually aggressive towards female volunteers, I think because they helped keep the call numbers up, which was important for funding.
- lilsunnybee 12y ago
  If they had BPD (borderline personality disorder), in all likelihood they were not acting manipulative at all, and were just very often in distress and experiencing very strong, dysregulated feelings and emotions. BPD people being "manipulative" is a negative and inaccurate stigma, based on misunderstanding. It is also highly harmful, as people are told to always hold in their emotions, always be wary of trying to be "manipulative", or reveal their true feelings to anyone. Since Borderline people likely went through significant trauma in childhood, contributing to the disorder, they are being made to suffer a second round of emotional abuse and/or neglect due to ignorance and people not getting their facts straight. People with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder), or ASPD (antisocial personality disorder) might exaggerate feelings to get attention or something else from you. Though if you were on a suicide hotline, ASPD people would have no reason for calling if not genuinely in distress, and i doubt you were encountering that many NPD people. Is it that hard to believe that some people might actually be commonly dealing with very strong emotions and impulses they can't control? It's really unfair of you to label others emotions as fake and attention-seeking, when you really have very little data to go on as to whether that's the case or not. And above all "Borderline people are not manipulative!" I wish i could shout that from the mountaintops, but i can't and most people don't care to listen anyways. You're inaccurately and likely prematurely applying the wrong label, and should give even regulars and even people you think you know well the benefit of the doubt.
mililani 12y ago
I didn't like some of what was wrote. Suffering shouldn't be praised, and suicide shouldn't be look as being weak. Some people just can't cope with the harshness that is life. Some people can't cope with the harshness of their mental illnesses. Some people just can't cope with the pain that is caused by terminal illnesses. To say that suffering is good, is to trivialize these people's plight.
- ahris 12y ago
  Buddhism doesn't praise suffering. Asceticism is practiced as a way to reach nirvana, the ultimate state of mind that is devoid of suffering. Some cool reads: http://viewonbuddhism.org/4_noble_truths.html#2 http://viewonbuddhism.org/4_noble_truths.html#2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism#Buddhism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism#Buddhism
- lilsunnybee 12y ago
  Any of us would commit suicide under the right circumstances. It looks weak and selfish when you have never had to walk in that person's shoes, but if you ever get there yourself, to lose all joy and humor, to be in seemingly constant pain and misery, to have all of your hope and faith dwindle to nothing, with no help in sight, only then can you really fully understand what it's like seeing no other way out. If you want to help prevent suicide, rather than limiting methods and consigning many people to continued torment and suffering, how about advocate for improving some of the societal problems that contribute to people losing all hope? Poverty is a huge driver, along with inadequate physical and mental healthcare. Homelessness, or being faced with it, is demoralizing and inspires hopelessness. Some of the hardest-to-remedy but most hard-hitting issues are always going to be domestic physical, sexual and emotional abuse and bullying. How about we try to improve other peoples lives and quality-of-life rather than sealing off the exits and trapping them in it? If we are ever going to have a truly compassionate society we need legalized assisted euthanasia, available to everyone after a waiting period, confidential counseling and a finite period of treatment. We all need to be honest with ourselves, stop the judgements, and provide the same options that we would want available if we were in somebody else's shoes.
cphuntington97 12y ago
>The constant screaming and the running, along with chronic exhaustion, produce in him a state of low-level panic, which is also a state of acute focus. It is as if his thinking mind, his doubting and critical and interpreting mind, had shut down and been replaced by a simpler mechanism that serves the body. This is extreme, however, it strikes me as a mild version of operating a steam locomotive. While undertaking this activity, my brain is occupied with 3 things: How's the water? How's the fire? Are there any hazards ahead? Repeat ad nauseum. The water level is very critical. Too much, and you'll be piping water through the steam plumbing, which has the potential to be very destructive to the locomotive. Too little, and the structural integrity of the boiler could be compromised. The fire is the life of the locomotive. Too much coal can snuff out the fire. Too little coal and you may run out of fuel. Too much fire wastes fuel and water; too little, and there will not be enough power to move the train. With the small models I operate, there is always a hand pump to put water into the boiler, but on a full size locomotive, it's possible to be in a situation where you don't have enough steam power to put more water into the boiler, and as I mentioned before, if the water level gets too low, the structural integrity of the boiler could be compromised. A brain busy with the above tasks may fail to notice a train stalled on the tracks ahead, which could cause a collision. I often think of operating a model steam locomotive as a state of nirvana. This is an exaggerated notion, but who could be troubled when the fire's too hot, the water's running low, see anything of concern up ahead? And by the way, how's that water level? My point is that I think the monks might be on to something.
- audiodude 12y ago
  Sounds like a moderately fun video game?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - minikomi 12y ago
    Yep - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Awv8xjqMjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Awv8xjqMjQ
  - 12y ago
chaostheory 12y ago
When a candidate presents himself for training, he must prostrate himself and declare that he is willing to do anything that needs to be done to solve the great matter of life and death. By tradition, he is scowled at by the head monk, who orders him to leave. He persists, he continues to prostrate himself, and after two or three days he is taken in. Apprentice monks are treated like slaves on a brutal plantation. They must follow orders and never say no. They sleep very little. They rise at four. Most of the time they eat only a small amount of rice and, occasionally, pickles (fresh vegetables and meat are forbidden). There is no heat, even though it can be very cold on the mountain, and the monks wear sandals and cotton robes. I often wondered where Chuck Palahniuk got some of his ideas for Fight Club
- javert 12y ago
  Maybe he just made it up. Maybe the monks got the idea from him.
  - lilsunnybee 12y ago
    > Maybe the monks got the idea from him. Not really possible since these are centuries-old traditions in many monasteries.
- wwweston 12y ago
  This kind of stuff in Fight Club is probably done very much on purpose. One big point of the book is that people (and perhaps men in particular) tend to be wired for struggle and a search for (a) meaning and (b) a reinforced identity in a social context. There's a number of ways that can be found, but the training of a monastery, the grind of boot camp, the initiation into a fraternity... that's part of what they do. As an exercise, the astute reader may wish to translate the paragraph beginning with "Apprentice monks" above into corresponding aspects of Valley/Startup culture.
- sanoli 12y ago
  I often wonder why so many people like Fight Club so much (seriously). I mean, a bunch of my friends think it's the greatest thing, and repeat some of the cra..., I mean, some of the lines all the time (not really, but anything annoying that gets repeated starts to look like it's all of the time). All that fascist streak doesn't even get noticed, and I get confused looks when I mention it. Weird.
milesf 12y ago
I was suicidal for an extended period of time many years ago. Doctors weren't sure what was wrong. The hospital emergency ward gave me clonazepam and ativan, but that was only a band-aid, and didn't help long term. Although I wanted to die, my fear of death and an eternity in the Lake of Fire was a far greater fear (Revelation 21:8). I'm not asking you to believe what I do. I'm just relaying what I went through, and the mindset I had at the time. As terrible as it was, that fear I had kept me alive. Finally found a doctor who was able to diagnose what I had. Got treatment, suicidal thoughts went away, and am doing much better now. I don't like to think back on that ordeal, but when I do meet people who are contemplating suicide, I absolutely can relate and empathize with the anguish they are experiencing.
- cristianpascu 12y ago
  It's funny that we tell our children not to do things that will certainly have bad consequences for them, like putting their hand in fire. But still, there's mockery around after-life scenarios like we'd know something for certain. There's so much mystery around our existence, consciousness, suffering, that mocking precautions about after-life is incredibly foolish.
  - milesf 12y ago
    The world is full of mockers and fools. I know, because that was me for the first 20 years of my life. Now that I'm 45, I hope I am less foolish, and that I mock less. ----- "Well I'm not sure I'm wiser but some things are clearer And it's getting clear that I'm not here for long. So what am I to do with my few minutes here in this place?" - Steven Curtis Chapman https://soundcloud.com/stevencurtischapman/a-little-more-time https://soundcloud.com/stevencurtischapman/a-little-more-tim...
    - jemfinch 12y ago
      > The world is full of mockers and fools. And 84% of the population on this planet is religious... Quips aside, I regret nearly every thing I did that derived from the fanatical faith I held for my first quarter century, apart from finding my wife. I missed out on so much of life because of my devotion, and if I'm a mocker or a fool now, it's only because I have so few minutes in this place and regret having wasted so much of it on religion.
rdtsc 12y ago
> by tradition, a mother who killed herself but not her children was thought to be truly wicked. Not sure if cultural relativism here should take precedence and just say "ok it is their culture, who am I to judge it". On the other hand, it is kind of dreadful that this was so common, it got to be a cultural tradition. There is something dreadful about it. You know "you bow before the elders", "take your shoes before you enter someone's home", "slaughter your children before you kill yourself". I guess, like the article says, suicide is one of those "unknown knowns" that is ingrained in the social subconsciousness. They mention samurai and sepuku and how certain people were "praised" in a way for committing an honorable suicide.
- wwweston 12y ago
  I'm not sure anyone's advocating for a value-free and uncritical judgment of every last cultural practice, and personally I don't think any practice is above critical review. At the same time, though, I think it's important to try and bring a holistic approach and an awareness that every culture probably has some such flaws. By "holistic approach" I mean remembering that "slaughter your children before you kill yourself" probably isn't a dangling horrifying imperative, it's probably an intersection of the problematic side of some values that have positive sides as well (for example, you could get it from "good mothers do not neglect the future of their children" + group identity over individual identity + a heavy personal accountability/status culture, all of which have some upsides as well as down). And of course, just like your favorite band, your favorite culture probably has something equally horrifying you accept (millions of abortions, automobile deaths as fact of life, elder neglect/abuse, money as status, whatever...).
Kiro 12y ago
OT but what's up with the font? It's very hard to highlight.
walruscop 12y ago
For anyone who hasn't seen this, this is both beautiful and heartbreaking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8

354 points by ahris 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

th0br0 12y ago

This is a beautiful article. Thank you for sharing.

bsaul 12y ago

Does anyone else here finds that there is disproportionnate amount of articles related to death, depression and mental illness that reaches the frontpage of HN ? I'm not saying it's necesseraly a bad thing, but it makes me wonder about the effects working in IT might have on mental health.

conistonwater 12y ago
One might also think that such articles are underrepresented everywhere else. In fact, seeing them getting voted up is some evidence that people actually want to read them.
- tim333 12y ago
  It might be that software guys see depression and think - Ah, a software problem in the head, how can we fix that? Unlike most of the rest of the world.
brixon 12y ago
I think you are just noticing them. I feel like I see more of the "I work 5 minutes a day and I'm more productive than you", "unlimited vacation is awesome", or "I don't want money, I just want to surf more"
hueving 12y ago
No, but perhaps you taking notice of them is a reflection of your sensitivity to the topic. The ones I see way to many of are about how amazing cities are and how crappy cars/suburbia is.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
milesf 12y ago
I've noticed the same trend. IT/tech workers are not known for their balanced work lives (eating healthy, exercise, not working too much).

xrd 12y ago

Stunning.

oldspiceman 12y ago

Short Vice documentary on the forest mentioned in the article. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8

jessaustin 12y ago

By tradition, suicide can absolve guilt and cancel debt, can restore honor and prove loyalty. In this respect I feel Japan's culture is superior to ours in the USA. For example, I felt Mark Madoff's suicide was entirely appropriate, a final act that put the rest of his life in a more dignified context. Yet every article one reads about it treats the suicide as an additional disgrace, yet another horrible thing we can blame on Mark and his father.

nsxwolf 12y ago
Holy shit.
a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
I think it ties into the differences between a guilt culture vs. a shame culture, as those terms relate to the anthropological research. In the western mind, you live suffering with guilt for your actions. In the east you have more irredeemable shame.
chris_mahan 12y ago
My wife is Japanese (born and raised there) and she does not look at it that way. She says people who commit suicide are losers can't apologize properly and work hard to make up for their mistake, or people who don't have the guts to weather through the hard times. Also, the whole samurai/bushido thing essentially doesn't exist for anyone under fifty over there. I went to Japan with my family in January, and I had a wonderful time, by the way. Eat at Joyfull, so cheap, so good! ( http://www.joyfull.co.jp/ http://www.joyfull.co.jp/ -- see breakfast menu: http://www.joyfull.co.jp/menu/morning.html http://www.joyfull.co.jp/menu/morning.html )
- sosborn 12y ago
  No offense, but making trip to Japan and eating at Joyful is like going to the Bay area and eating at Denny's.
  - philsnow 12y ago

dragontamer 12y ago

The Hikikomori has become a standard anime trope. Starting in 2009 in Anohana, the main character is a recovering Hikikomori (who went through quite a depressing story that caused him to withdraw from society). This last spring, there were at least three major animes revolving around the concept. "Nanana's burried treasure", "No Game No Life", and "Mekakucity actors" all have title characters who are Hikikomoris. Hikikomori (shut-ins / NEETs) seem to be a real problem... real enough that they've entered Japanese Anime culture as a new character archetype. I don't have much Japanese exposure outside of anime, so I'm not going to draw conclusions based on this alone. But I thought I'd give my perspective. Everything seems to tie together: an economic downturn that prevents many young people from getting a job, the uptick in shut-in culture, and finally an uptick in the suicide rate... (which seem to only cause more Hikikomoris as their loved ones disappear and make life more difficult for those left behind...)

Retric 12y ago
It's a fairly common anime trope. 42 examples on: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hikikomori http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hikikomori
- dragontamer 12y ago
  Common yes, but not as common as it has been in recent years. Three title-character Hikikomoris in a single anime season? Especially sine most of the examples before 2009 are not title characters. IE: You get stuff like a specific client for one episode of xxxHolic in older animes... or Haruhi who insulted normal people by calling them Hikikomoris. But in contrast to say, Spring 2014 animes, there are three title character Hikikomoris that play major roles in the anime. The concept has always been in anime, but very rarely has it been used so often for main characters.
ranran876 12y ago
Just to contrast your experience, I had a very interesting two month working near Tokyo. The whole time I was there I didn't see any anime, or hikkimori and the whole thing didn't resemble anime at all (though.. granted, I'm not an expert in the genre). The only places you saw anything anime related was at gambling establishments and certain districts of Tokyo. I think on the whole, that subculture is looked down upon - just like in the US. Most people just live boring normal middle class lives. I'm not denying that there is a problem, but I think it's not necessarily a statement about Japanese society as a whole. It's like if goth kids started slashing their wrists in large numbers. It might be a reflection of US society as a whole, or it might be a toxic subculture.

namDa 12y ago

The concluding paragraph was interesting to read. Not sure the legitimacy of the story but it is something to think about.

josephjrobison 12y ago
Reminds me of "The Rabbi's Dance" "The people of this town were all excited about the Rabbi’s visit for they knew that it was something rare and they looked forward to the holy man’s wisdom which they hoped would ease their suffering and their hard lives. So for weeks before he arrived, individuals reflected on what they would like to speak with him about, the questions they would like to pose and so on. They could hardly wait for the Rabbi to answer their urgent queries." Continued...http://basicindia.typepad.com/basicindia/2005/06/the_rabbis_danc.html http://basicindia.typepad.com/basicindia/2005/06/the_rabbis_...

kinotech 12y ago

It reminds me of a beautiful Brazilian film I've watched recently in NY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5hTIOCuwy4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5hTIOCuwy4

hardmath123 12y ago

Amazing. Japanese culture is the only one I know of where suicide is encourage and respected—is there any reason for that?

sjg007 12y ago
Samurai?
tixocloud 12y ago
This might help your understanding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido#Seven_virtues_of_Bushid.C5.8D_.28as_visioned_by_Nitobe_Inazo.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido#Seven_virtues_of_Bushid... As I understand it, the Samurai live by the 7 virtues: - Rectitude - Courage - Benevolence - Respect - Honesty - Honour - Loyalty I wouldn't be surprised if these virtues continue to play a huge role in today's society. That said, I'm also not sure how serious people live by these virtues.
- vacri 12y ago
  Read your link in more detail. The 7-virtue noble warrior-poets aren't actually how samurai behaved. That was a turn-of-last-century propaganda movement.
scott_s 12y ago
Hungarian culture also looks more positively on suicide than others. I learned this from Freakanomics, which did a very interesting episode on suicide: http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-suicide-paradox/ http://freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-po...
whytaka 12y ago
I'd been raised in a semi-Japanese home environment but wouldn't call myself an expert. Many people would point to the Bushido culture when it comes to the aura of honor surrounding suicide. However, I think it may go even deeper. From what I understand, Japan has never been a fully self-sufficient economy. The peasantry were always under some feudal rule and a lack of resources had been the norm. Tragic practises like carrying the elderly into the woods to be abandoned and die were not uncommon. The elderly knew when they had become more of a liability than an asset to the family and graciously accepted their fate.

Loughla 12y ago

The only thing I can't get over is how work focused all of the letters are. Sure, they all have family struggles, but they're less concerned about the particular struggles and more concerned about how that impacts their work. This article is phrased as if the entire Japanese culture is based on a disproportionate work-life balance to the extreme.

tfigueroa 12y ago
So it would seem. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%8Dshi That kind of environment can spin out cases like hikikomori. You can see similar trends in the U.S. with respect to startups and overworking, to a smaller scale, usually in the form of "going off the grid."
cphuntington97 12y ago
Are things any different anywhere else? Our hunting-gathering days are over. We used to chop down wood for the fire; now, we go to work, and push a button on the wall to stay warm. To work is to live in modern society.
- andyjdavis 12y ago
  That is certainly the norm but it is not universal. There are certainly individuals that do not follow this pattern but, unfortunately, you are unlikely to ever meet them if you have a more conventional existence. For example, I am a computer programmer, mid 30s, I have a wife and child and I work 20 hours a week, 25 absolute max. I've been working reduced hours for almost three years. I also work remotely so we spend most of our time in places like Thailand and Malaysia (warm, good food, low cost of living) although we will shortly be heading over to spend a few months in Europe. And we are not the only ones. Most of our social circle is composed of similar people. If you go places like Chiang Mai in Thailand it is crawling with westerners carving out an existence that involves a high quality of life and personal control over how much and when they perform income generating activities. Unfortunately if you are in the 9-5 routine yourself you will never meet any of us.
- twfarland 12y ago

themodelplumber 12y ago

I used to live near the Tojimbo cliffs and have been thinking about the place (and what happens there) on and off since my first visit. I also really liked this NYT article, about a retired cop who made it his mission to stop suicide attempts at the cliffs. 222 lives had been saved as of late 2009. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/world/asia/18japan.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/world/asia/18japan.html?_r...

scott_s 12y ago
"Mr. Shige says his approach to stopping suicides is quite simple: when he finds a likely person, he walks up and gently begins a conversation. The person, usually a man, quickly breaks down in tears, happy to find someone to listen to his problems." Genuine empathy can be both powerful and shocking.
- boohoofoodoo 12y ago
  Agreed, http://www.smh.com.au/national/an-angel-walking-among-us-at-the-gap-20090731-e4f2.html http://www.smh.com.au/national/an-angel-walking-among-us-at-...
- bradleysmith 12y ago
  unexpected empathy is always particularly moving, especially for the hopeless. It's a STRONG pattern interrupt to a negative view of the world around you, and really makes people question themselves.
marquis 12y ago
Another extraordinary story about a Suicide Catcher, this time in China. http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201005/suicide-catchers-nanjing-bridge-yangtze-river-mr-chen?printable=true http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201005/suicide-ca... "Mr. Chen would charge them like a dangerous man himself, wrestling, punching, kicking, doing whatever was necessary. 'I'm very confident in my physical strength,' he said. 'Since I have no psychological training, my job is to get that person off the bridge as quickly as possible.'"
12y ago

josephjrobison 12y ago

This is one of the most beautiful and hopeful things I've ever read.

apozem 12y ago

God damn. Sometimes I forget how powerful The New Yorker's writing can feel. Superb.

lilsunnybee 12y ago
The New Yorker has a pretty strong history of publishing often fascinating, thought-provoking stories. A journalist from Slate did a piece recently pointing out some of the standouts, since The New Yorker and it's archives are temporarily free until October i think. http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/07/22/new_yorker_online_free_for_three_months_what_should_you_read.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/07/22/new_yorker_on...

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

MarkPNeyer 12y ago

i used to struggle a lot with suicidal thoughts. i kept wanting to get out from the loneliness and general sense of "well what's the point? nothing i do really matters". i felt like the world was broken and alternated between trying to enjoy myself as much as i could, and wishing i could make things better. what helped me finally move past this was repeatedly trying and failing to kill myself. always someone would come by, or i'd change my mind, at the last minute. i internalized the idea that it's not possible for a person to experience their own death. i see it in terms of the multiverse; if someone dies in my timeline, their world track has diverged so far from mine that we cannot meaningfully exchange information. i see things like war and the holocaust as being more akin to network partitions than destroyed hardware. the big bang was the network splitting for the first time, and portions of it have been trying to reconnect ever since. i have no idea whether this is true or not, but it's .. being free from those thoughts immediately forces me to think "well if i'm stuck here, i have to make things work better for myself, since leaving apparently isn't an option." sometimes i think i DID successfully kill myself - years ago, on my first attempt in 2006 - and i'm in a purgatory now. i see stories of "life extension technology" being developed, and i think it's entirely plausible according to "mainstream science" that people my age will be able to live indefinitely. everyone else tells themselves "well its because of this new technology" and in the back of my mind, i keep thinking that i won't have a choice - i'll be alive forever because you can only die once. i'm sure this all sounds ridiculous to anyone hearing it, but honestly being able to put aside suicidal thoughts, and focus on improving my life, has been really, extremely helpful. it sounds like this guy has found another way (i.e. not involving believing immortality is the default state, or that you are already dead) to make it happen.

bashinator 12y ago
You might be interested in reading about quantum immortality.
- MarkPNeyer 12y ago
  wow, thanks for that. i had no idea anyone else thought this way. interestingly enough, the first suicide attempt was in 2005. my favorite band at the time - because it was both optimistic and depressed at the same time - was 'the eels', fronted by the son of Hugh Everett, the physicist who developed the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. music and mathematics, poetry and prose. it comes whence it is headed, where it's going - no one knows.

unlimit 12y ago

The other thing that got me very curious is how did a monk develop heart disease. I mean he must have been very very active and probably eating healthy.

michaelochurch 12y ago
The other thing that got me very curious is how did a monk develop heart disease. Age and genetics. One will suffice, if not both. Plenty of people develop heart problems who eat well and keep active. Healthy living improves your odds considerably, but doesn't put you at zero risk.
discreteevent 12y ago
From the article it appears that he was hardly sleeping in order to keep up with responding to people. It also makes it clear that other people's anxiety was passing on to him. Chronic exhaustion and stress might be OK for a young man if it's part of an effort to break his mind/enlighten him. But long term it's not surprising that it would seriously affect someone's health.
zhemao 12y ago
As the article mentions, Buddhist monks in East Asia these days mostly don't follow the ascetic lifestyle of days past. They smoke, drink, eat meat. Some of them may even marry.

thisjepisje 12y ago

[Suicide rates] go down in wartime and go up again afterward. Why would that be?

steveklabnik 12y ago
I'm not a psychologist, so I won't comment on the _why_, but veterans have an extremely high suicide rate. http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2427 http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2427 (the PDF link has the data) > Of the 147,763 suicides reported in 21 states, 27,062 (18.3%) > were identified as having history of U.S. military service > on death certificates This article has some discussion on how this data is hard to collect: http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/22-veteran-suicides-a-day/ http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/22-veteran-suicides-a-day/ From that article: > A recent analysis by News21, an investigative multimedia > program for journalism students, found that the annual > suicide rate among veterans is about 30 for every 100,000 > of the population, compared with the civilian rate of 14 per > 100,000. I'd expect that after a war, you have a new population of people in this particular high-risk group...
- thisjepisje 12y ago
  That's interesting, but what's puzzling me the most is how less people commit suicide during a war.
  - mrkurt 12y ago
    Total guess, but: Depression and anger are linked, and when I've been depressed it's often manifested as anger at myself. Sometimes, finding an outside focal point for anger can offer relief from depression. It is easier to find a focal point for anger that other people share, and war can be a common enemy for a large population.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > That's interesting, but what's puzzling me the most is how less people commit suicide during a war. Just speculating, but, I can immediately see two obvious potential contributing factors to lower suicide statistics (one of which isn't actually about reduced incidence of suicide, per se): during a war, there's a lot more opportunity for suicide-that-doesn't-get-categorized-as-suicide, and there is also a additional opportunity (compared to peacetime) for things that provide short-term, immediate purpose even if they don't deal with the underlying problems.

Estragon 12y ago

He had spent seven years sacrificing himself, driving himself to the point of breakdown, nearly to death, trying to help these people, and they didn’t care about him at all. What was the point? He knew that if you were suicidal it was difficult to understand other people’s problems, but still—he had been talking to some of these people for years, and now here he was dying and nobody cared. When I volunteered on a suicide hotline, the frequent callers were by far the most disheartening aspect of the job. I believe some of them had borderline personality disorder... at any rate they were highly manipulative, and a large part of the training for the job was about how to avoid being taken in / drained by them. There were one or two people who had figured out the duty roster for the call center, and you would be guaranteed a call from them if you were on duty... multiple hours-long calls, if you let them. The hotline didn't ban them unless they became sexually aggressive towards female volunteers, I think because they helped keep the call numbers up, which was important for funding.

lilsunnybee 12y ago
If they had BPD (borderline personality disorder), in all likelihood they were not acting manipulative at all, and were just very often in distress and experiencing very strong, dysregulated feelings and emotions. BPD people being "manipulative" is a negative and inaccurate stigma, based on misunderstanding. It is also highly harmful, as people are told to always hold in their emotions, always be wary of trying to be "manipulative", or reveal their true feelings to anyone. Since Borderline people likely went through significant trauma in childhood, contributing to the disorder, they are being made to suffer a second round of emotional abuse and/or neglect due to ignorance and people not getting their facts straight. People with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder), or ASPD (antisocial personality disorder) might exaggerate feelings to get attention or something else from you. Though if you were on a suicide hotline, ASPD people would have no reason for calling if not genuinely in distress, and i doubt you were encountering that many NPD people. Is it that hard to believe that some people might actually be commonly dealing with very strong emotions and impulses they can't control? It's really unfair of you to label others emotions as fake and attention-seeking, when you really have very little data to go on as to whether that's the case or not. And above all "Borderline people are not manipulative!" I wish i could shout that from the mountaintops, but i can't and most people don't care to listen anyways. You're inaccurately and likely prematurely applying the wrong label, and should give even regulars and even people you think you know well the benefit of the doubt.

mililani 12y ago

I didn't like some of what was wrote. Suffering shouldn't be praised, and suicide shouldn't be look as being weak. Some people just can't cope with the harshness that is life. Some people can't cope with the harshness of their mental illnesses. Some people just can't cope with the pain that is caused by terminal illnesses. To say that suffering is good, is to trivialize these people's plight.

ahris 12y ago
Buddhism doesn't praise suffering. Asceticism is practiced as a way to reach nirvana, the ultimate state of mind that is devoid of suffering. Some cool reads: http://viewonbuddhism.org/4_noble_truths.html#2 http://viewonbuddhism.org/4_noble_truths.html#2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism#Buddhism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism#Buddhism
lilsunnybee 12y ago
Any of us would commit suicide under the right circumstances. It looks weak and selfish when you have never had to walk in that person's shoes, but if you ever get there yourself, to lose all joy and humor, to be in seemingly constant pain and misery, to have all of your hope and faith dwindle to nothing, with no help in sight, only then can you really fully understand what it's like seeing no other way out. If you want to help prevent suicide, rather than limiting methods and consigning many people to continued torment and suffering, how about advocate for improving some of the societal problems that contribute to people losing all hope? Poverty is a huge driver, along with inadequate physical and mental healthcare. Homelessness, or being faced with it, is demoralizing and inspires hopelessness. Some of the hardest-to-remedy but most hard-hitting issues are always going to be domestic physical, sexual and emotional abuse and bullying. How about we try to improve other peoples lives and quality-of-life rather than sealing off the exits and trapping them in it? If we are ever going to have a truly compassionate society we need legalized assisted euthanasia, available to everyone after a waiting period, confidential counseling and a finite period of treatment. We all need to be honest with ourselves, stop the judgements, and provide the same options that we would want available if we were in somebody else's shoes.

cphuntington97 12y ago

>The constant screaming and the running, along with chronic exhaustion, produce in him a state of low-level panic, which is also a state of acute focus. It is as if his thinking mind, his doubting and critical and interpreting mind, had shut down and been replaced by a simpler mechanism that serves the body. This is extreme, however, it strikes me as a mild version of operating a steam locomotive. While undertaking this activity, my brain is occupied with 3 things: How's the water? How's the fire? Are there any hazards ahead? Repeat ad nauseum. The water level is very critical. Too much, and you'll be piping water through the steam plumbing, which has the potential to be very destructive to the locomotive. Too little, and the structural integrity of the boiler could be compromised. The fire is the life of the locomotive. Too much coal can snuff out the fire. Too little coal and you may run out of fuel. Too much fire wastes fuel and water; too little, and there will not be enough power to move the train. With the small models I operate, there is always a hand pump to put water into the boiler, but on a full size locomotive, it's possible to be in a situation where you don't have enough steam power to put more water into the boiler, and as I mentioned before, if the water level gets too low, the structural integrity of the boiler could be compromised. A brain busy with the above tasks may fail to notice a train stalled on the tracks ahead, which could cause a collision. I often think of operating a model steam locomotive as a state of nirvana. This is an exaggerated notion, but who could be troubled when the fire's too hot, the water's running low, see anything of concern up ahead? And by the way, how's that water level? My point is that I think the monks might be on to something.

audiodude 12y ago
Sounds like a moderately fun video game?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- minikomi 12y ago
  Yep - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Awv8xjqMjQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Awv8xjqMjQ
- 12y ago

chaostheory 12y ago

When a candidate presents himself for training, he must prostrate himself and declare that he is willing to do anything that needs to be done to solve the great matter of life and death. By tradition, he is scowled at by the head monk, who orders him to leave. He persists, he continues to prostrate himself, and after two or three days he is taken in. Apprentice monks are treated like slaves on a brutal plantation. They must follow orders and never say no. They sleep very little. They rise at four. Most of the time they eat only a small amount of rice and, occasionally, pickles (fresh vegetables and meat are forbidden). There is no heat, even though it can be very cold on the mountain, and the monks wear sandals and cotton robes. I often wondered where Chuck Palahniuk got some of his ideas for Fight Club

javert 12y ago
Maybe he just made it up. Maybe the monks got the idea from him.
- lilsunnybee 12y ago
  > Maybe the monks got the idea from him. Not really possible since these are centuries-old traditions in many monasteries.
wwweston 12y ago
This kind of stuff in Fight Club is probably done very much on purpose. One big point of the book is that people (and perhaps men in particular) tend to be wired for struggle and a search for (a) meaning and (b) a reinforced identity in a social context. There's a number of ways that can be found, but the training of a monastery, the grind of boot camp, the initiation into a fraternity... that's part of what they do. As an exercise, the astute reader may wish to translate the paragraph beginning with "Apprentice monks" above into corresponding aspects of Valley/Startup culture.
sanoli 12y ago
I often wonder why so many people like Fight Club so much (seriously). I mean, a bunch of my friends think it's the greatest thing, and repeat some of the cra..., I mean, some of the lines all the time (not really, but anything annoying that gets repeated starts to look like it's all of the time). All that fascist streak doesn't even get noticed, and I get confused looks when I mention it. Weird.

milesf 12y ago

I was suicidal for an extended period of time many years ago. Doctors weren't sure what was wrong. The hospital emergency ward gave me clonazepam and ativan, but that was only a band-aid, and didn't help long term. Although I wanted to die, my fear of death and an eternity in the Lake of Fire was a far greater fear (Revelation 21:8). I'm not asking you to believe what I do. I'm just relaying what I went through, and the mindset I had at the time. As terrible as it was, that fear I had kept me alive. Finally found a doctor who was able to diagnose what I had. Got treatment, suicidal thoughts went away, and am doing much better now. I don't like to think back on that ordeal, but when I do meet people who are contemplating suicide, I absolutely can relate and empathize with the anguish they are experiencing.

cristianpascu 12y ago
It's funny that we tell our children not to do things that will certainly have bad consequences for them, like putting their hand in fire. But still, there's mockery around after-life scenarios like we'd know something for certain. There's so much mystery around our existence, consciousness, suffering, that mocking precautions about after-life is incredibly foolish.
- milesf 12y ago
  The world is full of mockers and fools. I know, because that was me for the first 20 years of my life. Now that I'm 45, I hope I am less foolish, and that I mock less. ----- "Well I'm not sure I'm wiser but some things are clearer And it's getting clear that I'm not here for long. So what am I to do with my few minutes here in this place?" - Steven Curtis Chapman https://soundcloud.com/stevencurtischapman/a-little-more-time https://soundcloud.com/stevencurtischapman/a-little-more-tim...
  - jemfinch 12y ago
    > The world is full of mockers and fools. And 84% of the population on this planet is religious... Quips aside, I regret nearly every thing I did that derived from the fanatical faith I held for my first quarter century, apart from finding my wife. I missed out on so much of life because of my devotion, and if I'm a mocker or a fool now, it's only because I have so few minutes in this place and regret having wasted so much of it on religion.

rdtsc 12y ago

> by tradition, a mother who killed herself but not her children was thought to be truly wicked. Not sure if cultural relativism here should take precedence and just say "ok it is their culture, who am I to judge it". On the other hand, it is kind of dreadful that this was so common, it got to be a cultural tradition. There is something dreadful about it. You know "you bow before the elders", "take your shoes before you enter someone's home", "slaughter your children before you kill yourself". I guess, like the article says, suicide is one of those "unknown knowns" that is ingrained in the social subconsciousness. They mention samurai and sepuku and how certain people were "praised" in a way for committing an honorable suicide.

wwweston 12y ago
I'm not sure anyone's advocating for a value-free and uncritical judgment of every last cultural practice, and personally I don't think any practice is above critical review. At the same time, though, I think it's important to try and bring a holistic approach and an awareness that every culture probably has some such flaws. By "holistic approach" I mean remembering that "slaughter your children before you kill yourself" probably isn't a dangling horrifying imperative, it's probably an intersection of the problematic side of some values that have positive sides as well (for example, you could get it from "good mothers do not neglect the future of their children" + group identity over individual identity + a heavy personal accountability/status culture, all of which have some upsides as well as down). And of course, just like your favorite band, your favorite culture probably has something equally horrifying you accept (millions of abortions, automobile deaths as fact of life, elder neglect/abuse, money as status, whatever...).

Kiro 12y ago

OT but what's up with the font? It's very hard to highlight.

walruscop 12y ago

For anyone who hasn't seen this, this is both beautiful and heartbreaking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8