10 ms·

Income Inequality Is Falling Globally

42 points by dean 12y ago

eth1 12y ago
yea okaaaay... i was born at night, but not last night.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
PythonicAlpha 12y ago
I don't see any evidence in the article, just links to some dubious papers, partially paid by the world bank. It might be, that some money goes to third world countries (specially China and India) but I just doubt, that many people are really rising out of poverty. The "wandring labourers" of China are not. They work just to survive. Also those that are sewing our jeans in Malaysia and other countries ... at the verge of living wage. When the big corporations move along, to even cheaper countries, nothing is left to them. I know by own experience, that with statistics, you can prove just anything, even lies. I think, reading also the comments posted to the article is helpful. Some insights are also there.
- seanflyon 12y ago
  The Chinese poor, don't have to rise out of poverty to be vastly richer than they were a few decades ago. They had to get bigger desks in their school because all the kids are bigger because they can afford to feed them now.
  - PythonicAlpha 12y ago
    Might be, but they will run in tremendous health problems, given the current rate of environmental pollution. Also (again): Compared to western standards, the Chinese median earnings are still laughable.
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      Yet their life expectancy is still rising because they are so much better off than they were before. Chinese median earnings are still laughable compared to western standards but rising from unimaginable poverty to still quite bad poverty is a big improvement.
api 12y ago
The situation globally and the situation in first world countries, particularly the USA, is quite different. Income inequality is falling in places like Brazil, India, and China but is rising in the developed world.
- PythonicAlpha 12y ago
  And even that, I doubt. In China is rising a new class of Billionaires, which in place exploit their own people. I guess (and there is no real data given in the article), that they just counted for the inequality between countries and found that the lowest incomes in China are doing better against medium or low incomes in other countries. No wonder, since the medium income for example in Germany has dropped .... and of course the medium incomes in countries like China has risen (but the low incomes in those countries are still "poor" compared to Western standards).
- enoch_r 12y ago
  Inequality actually isn't falling in China or India, though it might be falling slightly in Brazil[1][2][3]. Global income inequality is decreasing because the poor countries are developing, and those countries from a position so far behind the developed world that their growth has a significant effect on global inequality, even if within any particular country inequality has increased. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_China [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_Brazil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_Brazil [3]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Income-inequality-on-the-rise-in-countries-like-India-IMF/articleshow/29857803.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/I...
- wavefunction 12y ago
  It's almost as if the "first world" elites are transferring the wealth of their developed nations and their poor and middle classes to themselves and sending a bit of it overseas to their outsourced interests...
  - wavefunction 12y ago
tokenadult 12y ago
I just posted this to my Facebook wall with the tagline I use for a headline conclusion that states a fact that everyone should know: "But of course." Globalization (increasing international trade on increasingly free terms of trade across more goods and services) would have to act as a worldwide phenomenon to reduce income inequality. Moreover, a country's greater rather than lesser involvement in international trade generally reduces income inequality within the country. Many of the countries in Europe that have especially low Gini coefficients (in other words, have especially equal distributions of income) are long-time members of the European Free Trade Association, and many of the countries in Central and South America that have high Gini coefficients (that is the region on the world to look in for the worst income inequality, among regions of the world) have long had protectionist trade policies and remarkably little involvement in the world economy.[1] Free trade improves income equality.[2] If reducing income inequality is your policy goal, improving provision of primary and secondary education is a good idea,[3] and other policy responses may be useful in one country or another,[4] but the world trend should continue to be toward more and more trade, the better to reduce income inequality and raise real wealth for everyone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... [2] http://www.efta.int/statistics/news/efta-countries-show-decrease-income-inequality-2931 http://www.efta.int/statistics/news/efta-countries-show-decr... http://www.imf.org/external/np/seminars/eng/2014/lic/pdf/Lim.pdf http://www.imf.org/external/np/seminars/eng/2014/lic/pdf/Lim... [3] http://www.oecd.org/eco/labour/49421421.pdf http://www.oecd.org/eco/labour/49421421.pdf [4] http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/laura-tyson-describes-what-the-us-should-do-to-enhance-economic-growth-and-distributional-equity http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/laura-tyson-desc... AFTER EDIT: I would be glad to hear from multiple participants here from all over the world how your income (as a hacker?) compares to the median income in the country you live, and I have opened an Ask HN thread specifically to focus discussion on that topic, which may help me learn a lot about other people's perspectives here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8058579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8058579
- PythonicAlpha 12y ago
  This is just propaganda without any real facts.
jvm 12y ago
To all the doubters, real manufacturing wages in China have actually been soaring over the past decades, this is corroborated across non-correlated sources: PRC Government numbers: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/wages-in-manufacturing http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/wages-in-manufacturing http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-wages-jump-in-2012-despite-slowing-economy-2013-05-17 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-wages-jump-in-2012-de... WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703849204576302972415758878 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870384920... Journal of Economic Perspectives: http://leedsonfinance.com/2013/02/24/the-end-of-cheap-chinese-labor/ http://leedsonfinance.com/2013/02/24/the-end-of-cheap-chines... No one source is believable but there appears to be wide consensus here. Also note these are real, inflation-corrected wages. You can tell especially by the WSJ's concern over prices, if inflation explained the changes it wouldn't impact export costs which are priced in USD not Yuan.
- PythonicAlpha 12y ago
  Did they also compare/correct not only with "inflation rates" but with raw material (e.g. foods) prices? To my knowledge, food prices have risen in many countries more than official inflation rates.
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    Inflation is measured by the cost a a standard basket of goods that includes food items. Well informed people disagree over whether or not that basket is representative or not, but inflation is a least supposed to be a measure of exactly what you are talking about.
    - PythonicAlpha 12y ago
      The key is "supposed". Inflation rates are always political.
- jokoon 12y ago
  well china has a huge growth, but after the 2008 crisis I can still raise my eyebrows. why would americans really care inequality in china ? if american politics want to reduce inequality, they want to do it in their country, not in developing countries.
julie1 12y ago
Ho! He is right. Just the problem of redistribution is like a problem of multiple bath tubs pouring water in a bigger common bathtub (the wealth) and how it is recycled (the water flowing back to the top in no respect of any scientific analogy). you could globally be happy that for all the bathtubs of the world to observe a ratio of wealth repartition that is less extreme. but where does this wealth/water comes from? the rich who are already experiencing a favorable bias toward tax paying or the active workers who are paying relatively more taxs comparing to their income? Tax does not transform into wealth maybe? No, but education does: a worker with an easier access to the education worths more for the economy. Health insurance makes a worker available in good conditions for more productive years. (No wonders that health insurance are almost forced for highly paid workers; the company should ensure its working forces are productive). So if the richer don't pay as much taxes, taxes being more profitable for the richer it is de facto (just by the sheer disappearance of the resources indirectly provided by the states) a logical decrease of the «second order» resources. Yes in the world globally situation increases positively in terms of repartition, but locally because mostly we have the same incentive all around the world, the situation decreases. The inequality are globally more balanced, but locally tending towards more non linear repartition. With a nice sigmoid. this will go on as long as there is no fiscal equity amongst all citizens, whatever the country, whatever the religion, or social/political/economical belief. It all boils down to how retro action works. And the shape of the curves of taxes. Every single steps, every non linear progression you make, you introduce distinct clusters of citizens which interests will diverge with the rest. Put a sigmoid in the way people pay taxes/get credit refound, and your society will have a sigmoid in its structure, thus creating the probability of some divergence of opinions on what is equity or egality. Are the 2 extremum wishable? All persons living at the average, or a cast system with n distincts layers, or can their exists «harmonious» level of wealth in a society that could results in less frictions? Mathematically I am pretty sure we could agree that when a curve have 2 extremum that are not optimums (casts system or uniform normative systems) we should find the rules for an optimum in the middle. Now in real life, maybe it is time to see the inequality not as a philosophical problem, but rather as process that can be engineered for the greater good of every one: slackers, billionnaires, hobos, politicians all alike. The first step at my opinion would be to forbid any rules in the form IF DISCRETE cond A then apply X else apply Y in laws and tax formulation.
enoch_r 12y ago
It's remarkable how many people in the NYT comments dismiss this as a distraction from the more important issue of within-country inequality. I guess it's more important to help out someone earning $15,000 a year who looks like us, than someone who earns $400 a year who doesn't. Global poverty is truly horrific, on a level that most people in the first world can't even comprehend, and its continued reduction is one of the really great (incomplete) triumphs of human history. I suppose I'm being uncharitable here. I'd guess the more likely explanation is mood affiliation--people want a political revolution in response to real problems (inequality, global warming, poverty, war, surveillance) and are resistant to any news that does not fit into this narrative of decline.
- neltnerb 12y ago
  You think it is remarkable that people prefer to help those who are within their local communities? That's practically in our biological makeup. As much as utilitarianism looks good on paper, ignoring emotions in understanding human behavior strikes me as equally remarkable.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- rbehrends 12y ago
  > It's remarkable how many people in the NYT comments dismiss this as a distraction from the more important issue of within-country inequality. I guess it's more important to help out someone earning $15,000 a year who looks like us, than someone who earns $400 a year who doesn't. Global poverty is truly horrific, on a level that most people in the first world can't even comprehend, and its continued reduction is one of the really great (incomplete) triumphs of human history. I'm pretty familiar with the issue of global poverty, but the critics are right: the policies that reduce poverty and inequality at the national level are not mutually exclusive with those that reduce poverty at the global level. More importantly, nation states CAN reduce poverty/inequality within their own borders (and many policies that do so are simply good economic common sense [1]), while there's a limit to what any particular country can do on a global scale. In short, decreasing inequality at the global level is no excuse not to combat rising inequality at the national level. [1] Such as universal healthcare and accessible education.
jokoon 12y ago
Seen that thing already on /r/economics a while ago, went in a long discussion with a libertarian sounding guy. Was really disappointed. I don't like this, because the current argument of inequality talks about developed countries, inside borders. The "global inequality" somewhat argues that inequality per country is irrelevant because what counts is global inequality, which to me is a little fallacious: you don't replace a debate with the same debate at a bigger scope. If markets are being globalized, nations lose bargaining power, and it's not really a good thing. It's also a little inadequate/irrelevant to talk about income inequality in developing countries I think. Those countries are developing, so it's not surprising to see their economies improve. If it's done at the expense of other more developed countries, it's natural for those latter countries to complain.

42 points by dean 12y ago

eth1 12y ago

yea okaaaay... i was born at night, but not last night.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

PythonicAlpha 12y ago

I don't see any evidence in the article, just links to some dubious papers, partially paid by the world bank. It might be, that some money goes to third world countries (specially China and India) but I just doubt, that many people are really rising out of poverty. The "wandring labourers" of China are not. They work just to survive. Also those that are sewing our jeans in Malaysia and other countries ... at the verge of living wage. When the big corporations move along, to even cheaper countries, nothing is left to them. I know by own experience, that with statistics, you can prove just anything, even lies. I think, reading also the comments posted to the article is helpful. Some insights are also there.

seanflyon 12y ago
The Chinese poor, don't have to rise out of poverty to be vastly richer than they were a few decades ago. They had to get bigger desks in their school because all the kids are bigger because they can afford to feed them now.
- PythonicAlpha 12y ago
  Might be, but they will run in tremendous health problems, given the current rate of environmental pollution. Also (again): Compared to western standards, the Chinese median earnings are still laughable.
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    Yet their life expectancy is still rising because they are so much better off than they were before. Chinese median earnings are still laughable compared to western standards but rising from unimaginable poverty to still quite bad poverty is a big improvement.

api 12y ago

The situation globally and the situation in first world countries, particularly the USA, is quite different. Income inequality is falling in places like Brazil, India, and China but is rising in the developed world.

PythonicAlpha 12y ago
And even that, I doubt. In China is rising a new class of Billionaires, which in place exploit their own people. I guess (and there is no real data given in the article), that they just counted for the inequality between countries and found that the lowest incomes in China are doing better against medium or low incomes in other countries. No wonder, since the medium income for example in Germany has dropped .... and of course the medium incomes in countries like China has risen (but the low incomes in those countries are still "poor" compared to Western standards).
enoch_r 12y ago
Inequality actually isn't falling in China or India, though it might be falling slightly in Brazil[1][2][3]. Global income inequality is decreasing because the poor countries are developing, and those countries from a position so far behind the developed world that their growth has a significant effect on global inequality, even if within any particular country inequality has increased. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_China [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_Brazil http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_Brazil [3]http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/Income-inequality-on-the-rise-in-countries-like-India-IMF/articleshow/29857803.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/I...
wavefunction 12y ago
It's almost as if the "first world" elites are transferring the wealth of their developed nations and their poor and middle classes to themselves and sending a bit of it overseas to their outsourced interests...
- wavefunction 12y ago

tokenadult 12y ago

I just posted this to my Facebook wall with the tagline I use for a headline conclusion that states a fact that everyone should know: "But of course." Globalization (increasing international trade on increasingly free terms of trade across more goods and services) would have to act as a worldwide phenomenon to reduce income inequality. Moreover, a country's greater rather than lesser involvement in international trade generally reduces income inequality within the country. Many of the countries in Europe that have especially low Gini coefficients (in other words, have especially equal distributions of income) are long-time members of the European Free Trade Association, and many of the countries in Central and South America that have high Gini coefficients (that is the region on the world to look in for the worst income inequality, among regions of the world) have long had protectionist trade policies and remarkably little involvement in the world economy.[1] Free trade improves income equality.[2] If reducing income inequality is your policy goal, improving provision of primary and secondary education is a good idea,[3] and other policy responses may be useful in one country or another,[4] but the world trend should continue to be toward more and more trade, the better to reduce income inequality and raise real wealth for everyone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq... [2] http://www.efta.int/statistics/news/efta-countries-show-decrease-income-inequality-2931 http://www.efta.int/statistics/news/efta-countries-show-decr... http://www.imf.org/external/np/seminars/eng/2014/lic/pdf/Lim.pdf http://www.imf.org/external/np/seminars/eng/2014/lic/pdf/Lim... [3] http://www.oecd.org/eco/labour/49421421.pdf http://www.oecd.org/eco/labour/49421421.pdf [4] http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/laura-tyson-describes-what-the-us-should-do-to-enhance-economic-growth-and-distributional-equity http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/laura-tyson-desc... AFTER EDIT: I would be glad to hear from multiple participants here from all over the world how your income (as a hacker?) compares to the median income in the country you live, and I have opened an Ask HN thread specifically to focus discussion on that topic, which may help me learn a lot about other people's perspectives here. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8058579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8058579

PythonicAlpha 12y ago
This is just propaganda without any real facts.

jvm 12y ago

To all the doubters, real manufacturing wages in China have actually been soaring over the past decades, this is corroborated across non-correlated sources: PRC Government numbers: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/wages-in-manufacturing http://www.tradingeconomics.com/china/wages-in-manufacturing http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-wages-jump-in-2012-despite-slowing-economy-2013-05-17 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/china-wages-jump-in-2012-de... WSJ: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748703849204576302972415758878 http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405274870384920... Journal of Economic Perspectives: http://leedsonfinance.com/2013/02/24/the-end-of-cheap-chinese-labor/ http://leedsonfinance.com/2013/02/24/the-end-of-cheap-chines... No one source is believable but there appears to be wide consensus here. Also note these are real, inflation-corrected wages. You can tell especially by the WSJ's concern over prices, if inflation explained the changes it wouldn't impact export costs which are priced in USD not Yuan.

PythonicAlpha 12y ago
Did they also compare/correct not only with "inflation rates" but with raw material (e.g. foods) prices? To my knowledge, food prices have risen in many countries more than official inflation rates.
- seanflyon 12y ago
  Inflation is measured by the cost a a standard basket of goods that includes food items. Well informed people disagree over whether or not that basket is representative or not, but inflation is a least supposed to be a measure of exactly what you are talking about.
  - PythonicAlpha 12y ago
    The key is "supposed". Inflation rates are always political.
jokoon 12y ago
well china has a huge growth, but after the 2008 crisis I can still raise my eyebrows. why would americans really care inequality in china ? if american politics want to reduce inequality, they want to do it in their country, not in developing countries.

julie1 12y ago

Ho! He is right. Just the problem of redistribution is like a problem of multiple bath tubs pouring water in a bigger common bathtub (the wealth) and how it is recycled (the water flowing back to the top in no respect of any scientific analogy). you could globally be happy that for all the bathtubs of the world to observe a ratio of wealth repartition that is less extreme. but where does this wealth/water comes from? the rich who are already experiencing a favorable bias toward tax paying or the active workers who are paying relatively more taxs comparing to their income? Tax does not transform into wealth maybe? No, but education does: a worker with an easier access to the education worths more for the economy. Health insurance makes a worker available in good conditions for more productive years. (No wonders that health insurance are almost forced for highly paid workers; the company should ensure its working forces are productive). So if the richer don't pay as much taxes, taxes being more profitable for the richer it is de facto (just by the sheer disappearance of the resources indirectly provided by the states) a logical decrease of the «second order» resources. Yes in the world globally situation increases positively in terms of repartition, but locally because mostly we have the same incentive all around the world, the situation decreases. The inequality are globally more balanced, but locally tending towards more non linear repartition. With a nice sigmoid. this will go on as long as there is no fiscal equity amongst all citizens, whatever the country, whatever the religion, or social/political/economical belief. It all boils down to how retro action works. And the shape of the curves of taxes. Every single steps, every non linear progression you make, you introduce distinct clusters of citizens which interests will diverge with the rest. Put a sigmoid in the way people pay taxes/get credit refound, and your society will have a sigmoid in its structure, thus creating the probability of some divergence of opinions on what is equity or egality. Are the 2 extremum wishable? All persons living at the average, or a cast system with n distincts layers, or can their exists «harmonious» level of wealth in a society that could results in less frictions? Mathematically I am pretty sure we could agree that when a curve have 2 extremum that are not optimums (casts system or uniform normative systems) we should find the rules for an optimum in the middle. Now in real life, maybe it is time to see the inequality not as a philosophical problem, but rather as process that can be engineered for the greater good of every one: slackers, billionnaires, hobos, politicians all alike. The first step at my opinion would be to forbid any rules in the form IF DISCRETE cond A then apply X else apply Y in laws and tax formulation.

enoch_r 12y ago

It's remarkable how many people in the NYT comments dismiss this as a distraction from the more important issue of within-country inequality. I guess it's more important to help out someone earning $15,000 a year who looks like us, than someone who earns $400 a year who doesn't. Global poverty is truly horrific, on a level that most people in the first world can't even comprehend, and its continued reduction is one of the really great (incomplete) triumphs of human history. I suppose I'm being uncharitable here. I'd guess the more likely explanation is mood affiliation--people want a political revolution in response to real problems (inequality, global warming, poverty, war, surveillance) and are resistant to any news that does not fit into this narrative of decline.

neltnerb 12y ago
You think it is remarkable that people prefer to help those who are within their local communities? That's practically in our biological makeup. As much as utilitarianism looks good on paper, ignoring emotions in understanding human behavior strikes me as equally remarkable.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rbehrends 12y ago
> It's remarkable how many people in the NYT comments dismiss this as a distraction from the more important issue of within-country inequality. I guess it's more important to help out someone earning $15,000 a year who looks like us, than someone who earns $400 a year who doesn't. Global poverty is truly horrific, on a level that most people in the first world can't even comprehend, and its continued reduction is one of the really great (incomplete) triumphs of human history. I'm pretty familiar with the issue of global poverty, but the critics are right: the policies that reduce poverty and inequality at the national level are not mutually exclusive with those that reduce poverty at the global level. More importantly, nation states CAN reduce poverty/inequality within their own borders (and many policies that do so are simply good economic common sense [1]), while there's a limit to what any particular country can do on a global scale. In short, decreasing inequality at the global level is no excuse not to combat rising inequality at the national level. [1] Such as universal healthcare and accessible education.

jokoon 12y ago

Seen that thing already on /r/economics a while ago, went in a long discussion with a libertarian sounding guy. Was really disappointed. I don't like this, because the current argument of inequality talks about developed countries, inside borders. The "global inequality" somewhat argues that inequality per country is irrelevant because what counts is global inequality, which to me is a little fallacious: you don't replace a debate with the same debate at a bigger scope. If markets are being globalized, nations lose bargaining power, and it's not really a good thing. It's also a little inadequate/irrelevant to talk about income inequality in developing countries I think. Those countries are developing, so it's not surprising to see their economies improve. If it's done at the expense of other more developed countries, it's natural for those latter countries to complain.