4 ms·

Here in Germany, private households generally don't have an AC either. Office buildings do though, thankfully, as even those sturdy ancient stone monsters do he

by Udo 12y ago

Here in Germany, private households generally don't have an AC either. Office buildings do though, thankfully, as even those sturdy ancient stone monsters do heat up quite a bit. The thing is, while there is an intense heat wave in almost every German summer, most of the time it's too cold rather than too hot. When I bought my house two years ago, I decided to put an AC in. Not only because it gets ridiculously hot sometimes, but also as a general heat pump (the electrical heating system used in it before was really inefficient and expensive). I'm very happy with that decision, but as far as I can tell this is the only private house with AC in that part of the town. Not even luxury houses have them, though some probably do have ground-based heat pumps. Instead of real split/wall-type AC Germans do buy a lot of mobile AC units seemingly not realizing how limited they are. On the whole, this is surprising for a country with extreme temperature fluctuations, especially since it's common here for people to live in roof apartments. I think it's cultural. In the Philippines, where I spent some time, every building (lower middle class and up) has air conditioning. The temperature extremes aren't nearly as bad as in Germany.

adventured 12y ago
Isn't the problem in the Philippines, as compared to Germany, that it stays so hot all year-round (and reaches higher average highs all year-round as well)? I assumed the temperatures are much hotter overall in the Philippines as compared to Germany, leading logically to a much higher use of AC. The average high in Manila for example, never drops below 30 degrees C in any months: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_the_Philippines#Type_I:_Metro_Manila http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_the_Philippines#Type...
- Udo 12y ago
  Yes, of course, it would be a miserable place without AC, no question. The climate is pretty stable though, with the exception of rainy season. But the point is, it gets just as intolerable (maybe even more so) in Germany.
  - adventured 12y ago
    I don't understand how it can be cultural to want AC when the highs are 31 degrees C all year? Isn't that logical in response to oppressive heat that rarely lets up (not to mention very high humidity)? I'm just not entirely sure how Germany could be more intolerable in regards to needing AC / dealing with heat. Germany doesn't seem close to being on the Philippines' level regarding heat. The average highs in Berlin only reach 25.5 or so degrees at the peak in July, and only briefly stay up there. Frankfurt isn't much different. Could you by chance show me some data for Germany regarding what makes it so intolerable compared to the Philippines?
    - Udo 12y ago
      Heh, recently I seem to be unable to say anything on HN that isn't received with extreme skepticism and controversy ;) First off, I was talking about Germany when I said the reasons for not having AC in private households is that "it's just not done", when it is in fact common to have this in offices. Maybe it's subjective, but in the tropics the temperature stays pretty stable, there are frequent rain showers (about once a day), and of course the general proximity of the ocean also helps making the Philippines subjectively OK in my opinion. A heat wave in Germany will typically not see any rain, the sun just burns down mercilessly, and the air does not move. Again, these are subjective reasons, and there is nothing wrong in principle with you denying the validity of my claim, but personally I don't want to live here without air conditioning.
    - Amezarak 12y ago
      I don't live in the Phillipines, but I do live in the Deep South, where temperatures in summer more often than not sit around the mid-nineties (35C) - highs get around 100, or 40C - on top of very high humidity. 25.5C is actually cooler than the temperature many of us set our air condition to down here. I keep mine around 26.5C and regard that as pleasantly cool! It's hard to imagine that's what some people regard as hot enough to warrant AC. :) So I too am not really sure why Germans would need AC if that's the average high.
      - Udo 12y ago
Zak 12y ago
I've had several Germans tell me AC makes them sick. Some complain that the air is stale. This is a big deal to Germans; most will open windows for fresh air every few hours even in extreme heat or cold, claiming that the air is unbearable to breathe otherwise. Some complain that the rapid change in temperature when transitioning from a hot outdoor environment to a cool indoor one (which I find pleasant) is unhealthy.
- nospecinterests 12y ago
  It really helps to put in an air exchanger. If our office space didn't have one the stink would be unbearable in the summer. It also helps to change the filters every couple of months.
- Udo 12y ago
  There is a ubiquitous phenomenon in Germany, called "catching a draft". It's a real thing which as far as I can tell only befalls Germans, with physical symptoms and everything. On top of that and somewhat paradoxically they do believe you have to open the window every hour or so, even if the building is sufficiently ventilated in theory, otherwise they get headaches, complain of unbearable CO2 levels and/or a stinky atmosphere. For something to be unhealthy, it is sufficient to believe that it's unhealthy. Even though I was born in Germany, I never really understood these compulsions, but they do seem to run very deep (I'd say 50% of my German friends exhibit them on a level that can become disruptive). I suspect in theory the temperature variation experienced by going for a swim in a lake during summer (which is an activity generally enjoyed by Germans) should be larger than what you get from moving in and out of a properly air conditioned building. It probably depends hugely on individual lifestyle, but I think ubiquitous air conditioning would in fact reduce the temperature variations a person experiences during the day. Even in a country like Germany, people do tend to spend most of their time indoors or in their cars.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    Sounds like Korean "fan death." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death
derda 12y ago
Its not only the lack of AC in houses here in Germany. Public Transport is even worse. In my town only the last delivery of new buses had AC fitted to them (and I think not even all of them). But you cannot really open the windows either, so you are stuck in afternoon traffic in a bus full of sweaty people with no ventilation at all.
kghose 12y ago
This is a very interesting thread for me. My spouse is from Germany, and it was nice to hear that the tussles we have with opening windows in the middle of a New England winter are part of a much broader "war" ;-) Also, in New England very few homes have central air - new construction and renovations do have central, but it seems a waste, given you only really need it in July and then usually the nights (when we are in the house) are cool. But yes, this month and a few days in June I think, every day, so, how much would it cost to put in a ductless in the bedrooms? The living room has a GIANT ancient wall mounted air-conditioner from the days of the cold war and moon landings which sounds like a rocket and seems to flood the first floor with cold air the moment you switch it on. I have not seen the electric bill yet.
- Udo 12y ago
  > so, how much would it cost to put in a ductless in the bedrooms? I didn't install central air either, it's basic split units (probably the precursors to your moon rocket cooler) where the only thing you really need to get through the walls are relatively thin coolant lines that run to the outside heat exchangers. It's about 600€ per unit, I'd say. The modern ones are pretty quiet as well. The nice thing I noticed about them is they have an efficiency of around 2.6 - meaning that for every Watt you put in, around 2.6 Watts of energy are being moved, both in or out. Obviously, that subject to some adjustment depending on the temperature gradient, but it's way more efficient than the electrical heating that was installed in my bungalow before. > I have not seen the electric bill yet. I remember an episode of "Married with Children", where Al brings home a ancient German AC that was made by the Nazis or something, and when they plugged it in the entire neighborhood lost power. That's what I picture is in your house ;)

by Udo 12y ago

adventured 12y ago

Isn't the problem in the Philippines, as compared to Germany, that it stays so hot all year-round (and reaches higher average highs all year-round as well)? I assumed the temperatures are much hotter overall in the Philippines as compared to Germany, leading logically to a much higher use of AC. The average high in Manila for example, never drops below 30 degrees C in any months: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_the_Philippines#Type_I:_Metro_Manila http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_the_Philippines#Type...

Udo 12y ago
Yes, of course, it would be a miserable place without AC, no question. The climate is pretty stable though, with the exception of rainy season. But the point is, it gets just as intolerable (maybe even more so) in Germany.
- adventured 12y ago
  I don't understand how it can be cultural to want AC when the highs are 31 degrees C all year? Isn't that logical in response to oppressive heat that rarely lets up (not to mention very high humidity)? I'm just not entirely sure how Germany could be more intolerable in regards to needing AC / dealing with heat. Germany doesn't seem close to being on the Philippines' level regarding heat. The average highs in Berlin only reach 25.5 or so degrees at the peak in July, and only briefly stay up there. Frankfurt isn't much different. Could you by chance show me some data for Germany regarding what makes it so intolerable compared to the Philippines?
  - Udo 12y ago
    Heh, recently I seem to be unable to say anything on HN that isn't received with extreme skepticism and controversy ;) First off, I was talking about Germany when I said the reasons for not having AC in private households is that "it's just not done", when it is in fact common to have this in offices. Maybe it's subjective, but in the tropics the temperature stays pretty stable, there are frequent rain showers (about once a day), and of course the general proximity of the ocean also helps making the Philippines subjectively OK in my opinion. A heat wave in Germany will typically not see any rain, the sun just burns down mercilessly, and the air does not move. Again, these are subjective reasons, and there is nothing wrong in principle with you denying the validity of my claim, but personally I don't want to live here without air conditioning.
  - Amezarak 12y ago
    I don't live in the Phillipines, but I do live in the Deep South, where temperatures in summer more often than not sit around the mid-nineties (35C) - highs get around 100, or 40C - on top of very high humidity. 25.5C is actually cooler than the temperature many of us set our air condition to down here. I keep mine around 26.5C and regard that as pleasantly cool! It's hard to imagine that's what some people regard as hot enough to warrant AC. :) So I too am not really sure why Germans would need AC if that's the average high.
    - Udo 12y ago

Zak 12y ago

I've had several Germans tell me AC makes them sick. Some complain that the air is stale. This is a big deal to Germans; most will open windows for fresh air every few hours even in extreme heat or cold, claiming that the air is unbearable to breathe otherwise. Some complain that the rapid change in temperature when transitioning from a hot outdoor environment to a cool indoor one (which I find pleasant) is unhealthy.

nospecinterests 12y ago
It really helps to put in an air exchanger. If our office space didn't have one the stink would be unbearable in the summer. It also helps to change the filters every couple of months.
Udo 12y ago
There is a ubiquitous phenomenon in Germany, called "catching a draft". It's a real thing which as far as I can tell only befalls Germans, with physical symptoms and everything. On top of that and somewhat paradoxically they do believe you have to open the window every hour or so, even if the building is sufficiently ventilated in theory, otherwise they get headaches, complain of unbearable CO2 levels and/or a stinky atmosphere. For something to be unhealthy, it is sufficient to believe that it's unhealthy. Even though I was born in Germany, I never really understood these compulsions, but they do seem to run very deep (I'd say 50% of my German friends exhibit them on a level that can become disruptive). I suspect in theory the temperature variation experienced by going for a swim in a lake during summer (which is an activity generally enjoyed by Germans) should be larger than what you get from moving in and out of a properly air conditioned building. It probably depends hugely on individual lifestyle, but I think ubiquitous air conditioning would in fact reduce the temperature variations a person experiences during the day. Even in a country like Germany, people do tend to spend most of their time indoors or in their cars.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Sounds like Korean "fan death." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_death

derda 12y ago

Its not only the lack of AC in houses here in Germany. Public Transport is even worse. In my town only the last delivery of new buses had AC fitted to them (and I think not even all of them). But you cannot really open the windows either, so you are stuck in afternoon traffic in a bus full of sweaty people with no ventilation at all.

kghose 12y ago

This is a very interesting thread for me. My spouse is from Germany, and it was nice to hear that the tussles we have with opening windows in the middle of a New England winter are part of a much broader "war" ;-) Also, in New England very few homes have central air - new construction and renovations do have central, but it seems a waste, given you only really need it in July and then usually the nights (when we are in the house) are cool. But yes, this month and a few days in June I think, every day, so, how much would it cost to put in a ductless in the bedrooms? The living room has a GIANT ancient wall mounted air-conditioner from the days of the cold war and moon landings which sounds like a rocket and seems to flood the first floor with cold air the moment you switch it on. I have not seen the electric bill yet.

Udo 12y ago
> so, how much would it cost to put in a ductless in the bedrooms? I didn't install central air either, it's basic split units (probably the precursors to your moon rocket cooler) where the only thing you really need to get through the walls are relatively thin coolant lines that run to the outside heat exchangers. It's about 600€ per unit, I'd say. The modern ones are pretty quiet as well. The nice thing I noticed about them is they have an efficiency of around 2.6 - meaning that for every Watt you put in, around 2.6 Watts of energy are being moved, both in or out. Obviously, that subject to some adjustment depending on the temperature gradient, but it's way more efficient than the electrical heating that was installed in my bungalow before. > I have not seen the electric bill yet. I remember an episode of "Married with Children", where Al brings home a ancient German AC that was made by the Nazis or something, and when they plugged it in the entire neighborhood lost power. That's what I picture is in your house ;)