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More than half the Thiel Fellows plan on returning to school

113 points by sarahbuhr 12y ago

nicklovescode 12y ago
First year Thiel Fellow here. Just wanted to add that the Thiel Foundation(who oversee the program) isn't necessarily against going back to school and never have been. They've been very open that for some projects, academia is a good place to be.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  What are your plans for the future? And if it doesn't work out, do you have anything else in mind? Just curious. Does it get very stressful feeling like you have to live up to everybody's expectations?
  - nicklovescode 12y ago
    I'm working on http://usebloom.com http://usebloom.com for the foreseeable future with another Thiel Fellow. I find I learn best by reading books and talking with smart people, both of which can be done outside an academic setting, so I've decided not to go to college.
    - hnnewguy 12y ago
      >I find I learn best by reading books and talking with smart people How do you know how you "learn best" as a 16-19 year old who has never even been to college?
      - cgcardona 12y ago
        Perhaps they've spent most of their life studying and learning and have taken mental note of what works best for them.
        hnnewguy 12y ago
        >Perhaps they've spent most of their life studying Most of their life studying? How much relevant experience do you think one obtains in years 0 to 16? Up to that point school is a complete and utter joke, especially if you're even modestly intelligent. A 16-19 year old, no matter how intelligent, doesn't have much wisdom.
        mkal_tsr 12y ago
        "A 16-19 year old, no matter how intelligent, doesn't have much wisdom." I couldn't help but be reminded by the Good Will Hunting scene - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjWHfBHKos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjWHfBHKos
        calinet6 12y ago
        To be quite blunt, most of their life is not a very long time. I, too, had a good idea of my learning style and aptitude going into college. It has not changed all that much since. What did change was my ability to use that learning style to link together fields, knowledge, information, and people that appear extremely complex and disparate on their own. The world needs specialists, for sure, and perhaps you can level up your knowledge in the field of your interest by using books and web research. That's valuable. If you really want to be valuable, do what no one else seems to be able to do right now: put everything together. Everything. Not just different parts of your own field, but throw chemistry and poetry and literature in there. How about music? How does that affect your work? What about history and philosophy or shoot, most importantly, psychology? How will you not only create great products, but also know how they affect people, and exactly what ways other people will think about them? How will you discover what people really need if you don't understand them on a basic level? What about theology and philosophy? If you just rejected the possibility of their importance to your work, then you're not the kind of person I want to work with. Rejection of knowledge is already failure. College, above all, gives you breadth and the tools to deal with it. Use that and you'll be ten times more valuable than even the best specialist. Can you get that elsewhere? Maybe. Does everyone need it? Probably not. But I've never seen anything that kicks you out of your own head more swiftly or effectively than a good university—and that alone makes you better in my book.
      - aik 12y ago
        I can very honestly say I never learned how to learn in college. I was finally forced to learn as soon as I finished and entered the "real world".
        hnnewguy 12y ago
        That's precisely my point. You tried it, it wasn't for you. It isn't for everyone. But trying it out is important. I mean, the OP said he learns best being surrounded by books and smart people; that's college in a nutshell. You're unlikely to ever find a better library.
      - nmrm 12y ago
        > How do you know how you "learn best" as a 16-19 year old who has never even been to college? I think I understood how I learn best by the time I was in middle school or so. Hasn't changed much since then.
    - foolrush 12y ago
      While plausible, there is an aspect of a filter bubble / confirmation bias you are ignoring that comes with a formal degree. In particular, liberal arts degrees. Being forced to look beyond one's bubble is extremely rewarding. Being forced to tackle trying tomes of knowledge that test the will may be the only chance one can have to learn on certain topics. The whole “skip university” trope is a sad meme to push were it only for these reasons. It is sadder still when one performs a reducto ad absurdun where the sole metric is formal education as monetary gain. Where would our culture be without music, literature, philosophy, and art? Is there value in studying these worlds beyond monetary gain? What sort of an elevated impact might the brilliant minds around HN offer with a diverse and eclectic formal education?
      - nmrm 12y ago
        Since all my other comments are quite negative, I'll take a moment to defend the OP here. Notice their justification begins with "I find I learn best...". Sounds like perhaps the best way to justify a decision about one's education. As for breadth, it's true. College makes accumulating these experiences very easily. Luckily, there are lots of smart people out there for anyone who might want to broaden their horizons while not attending college. In fact, part of the point of college is realizing this is true and figuring out how to benefit from these opportunities.
      - aik 12y ago
        I believe the "skip university" trope is sad. I also believe "everyone has to go to college" is sad. There is a huge disparity between universities -- I went to an average state university, and in most aspects I firmly believe it was more damaging to my being than helpful (it has been over 5 years since I graduated and I am still realizing and overcoming personal problems that I believe were partly inculcated in me from college and K-12). My sisters went to decent liberal arts universities and, through observation, believe theirs to much more worthwhile. Of course each person is different, so others may not have had as worthless of an experience as I did. Point being that (although I can't back this up) I'm pretty sure no university is better than 50%+ of universities out there, and so the endless expectation bias is often harmful.
- kevingadd 12y ago
  "Thiel Fellows are given a no-strings-attached grant of $100,000 to skip college" - thielfellowship.org "The fellowship is intended for students under the age of 20 and offers them a total of $100,000 over two years as well as guidance and other resources to drop out of school" - Wikipedia "Everybody believes that you need to go to college... the average plumber makes as much as the average doctor." - Peter Thiel in video interview: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/billionaire-offers-college-alternative/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/billionaire-offers-college-alter... If the Thiel Fellowship isn't about convincing kids to drop out of college and not go back, someone should tell Peter Thiel and the person that runs the website. :-) Glad to hear the fellowship is working out great for you, though! I'm not a big fan of college myself.
  - nicklovescode 12y ago
    To be clear, you cannot be enrolled at a university and go through the Fellowship at the same time. My comment above referred to post-Fellowship.
  - joshhart 12y ago
    Peter Thiel is lying. Plumbers make about 1/4 as much money as a doctor: http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/physician/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/physician/salary
    - adamcanady 12y ago
      Haven't done the math myself, but if you factor in years of salary earned while the doctor in training would be at school/residency/fellowship and the salary on that page is for folks who have been at it for a while and either have a private practice with many clients or have been in academia for 10-15 years.
    - ef4 12y ago
      That's a misleading way of comparing them because the doctor has radically higher startup costs in both time and money. Once that's factored in, the doctor still has higher lifetime earnings, but not nearly the 4x you're pointing at. More like 1.8x. And it's not until about age 40 that the doctor breaks even relative to the plumber. And the doctor can only pull all that off in the first place with access to about $500,000 in credit.
outside1234 12y ago
Only half?
- gwern 12y ago
  Exactly. 50% - compared to what? Weren't all these people accepted to prestigious colleges and ~100% likely to go to college? Or, was there some reason to think in advance that 50% shows the program is a failure while if 40% would vindicate it? The more interesting question is, what are the 50% who don't want to go back doing now? Those are the ones whose circumstances would tell us something meaningful about how well the Thiel thing is working.
deleted 12y ago
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jblow 12y ago
Very weird one-sided article containing no details of substance, like how the actual projects are going and what has been implemented.
IanDrake 12y ago
And the point is? Did anyone else go to college with that person that seemed a little older, seemed to know how to better apply what they were learning, and asked the questions that suggested they had an advanced understanding? I did. These were guys/gals who got jobs right out of high school and were now getting their degrees. And they spanked the typical undergrads. So, is article this telling me that this is the worst case from the Thiel Fellows? OK. Great. Next.
- fleitz 12y ago
  Couldn't agree more, I'm thinking about going back for my degree, but mostly for how easy it makes it to cross borders.
saganus 12y ago
[quote]He views the Fellows program as a two year education of sorts. “If and when I return to college I can have a new perspective.”[/quote] I think this is the important bit. You get the experience of doing something uncommon, the benefit of being with like-minded individuals pursuing their own ideas and dreams... with the benefit of going back to school if you wish, a couple of years older if you want, but with much more real-world experience (to a degree) than those same 2 years spent only at college. I think the real difference will be made by those that go back to school actually. Not by virtue of spending those 2 years at the Mission house, but by virtue of going back to school, learning whatever skills are necessary to then go produce something taking advantage of both worlds.
philip1209 12y ago
The Thiel Fellowship still needs a success story. It is in its early stages. All it will take is a single fellow that accomplishes something revolutionary and cool to completely change public perception of this program.
- SilasX 12y ago
  I thought the relevant success metric would be whether the median student does better, in order for it to be a case against going to college.
  - philip1209 12y ago
    Thiel is accountable to nobody for the results of this program. It's more of an experiment. It becomes a more powerful tool for the members if the media likes the program, and a single shining success is what the media requires.
    - judk 12y ago
      It's not an experiment, it's a bizarre political propaganda effort in service of some chip Thiel has on his shoulder.
- nicklovescode 12y ago
  I agree that a major success story would chance public perception of the Fellowship, but I want to add that many of the Fellows who have had success have decided not to publicize it.
- morgante 12y ago
  > The Thiel Fellowship still needs a success story. It is in its early stages. All it will take is a single fellow that accomplishes something revolutionary and cool to completely change public perception of this program. Perhaps that will change the public perception, but it says absolutely nothing about the actual value of the program. It's a selective group of high-achieving teens, of course some small subset will go on to experience amazing success. Harvard could lay off its entire faculty and sell its campus, but as long as admissions stayed the same Harvard acceptees would continue to accomplish amazing things.
7Figures2Commas 12y ago
Is this really surprising? Thiel Fellows are by in large precisely the type of individuals who most belong on a university campus. Many of them, by virtue of their interests in science, math and engineering, will find it difficult to advance those interests professionally outside of the university environment. The young folks who really need the encouragement and permission to take a path that doesn't involve a four year university are those who aren't prepared intellectually or socially and those whose aptitudes and interests point to vocational training. In my opinion the Thiel Fellowship program is a poor vehicle for questioning the necessity of a university education and calling attention to the higher education bubble. Unless the program starts serving future plumbers and electricians instead of future engineers and doctors, it has no business being promoted as such a vehicle.
- kanzure 12y ago
  > Many of them, by virtue of their interests in science, math and engineering, will find it difficult to advance those interests professionally outside of the university environment. Would more money solve that problem? If 100k is legitimately not enough to "advance professional interests", then what about 200k? 500k? 1M? Also, consider the subset of them wanting to do a biotech startup, where everyone pitching must be a PhD (reality isn't this bad)--- $100k of pre-vet is probably not enough to make up for the lack of credentials to flash around to raise money to do the more costly biotech ventures.
nmrm 12y ago
This matters because the Thiel Fellowship program has a political backdrop, and is motivated by/supports the "you don't need college" message. That message, should an average American (not a Thiel fellow) take it to heart, is demonstrably and empirically not in their self interest. Period. Thiel Fellows are some of the brightest of the bright; of course not attending college won't hurt them in the long run. And accepting a prestigious fellowship will certainly help, at the very least in the short run. So the fellowship makes a lot of sense, and no one claims fellows were hurt just because they return to academia. However, the fact that 1/2 of recipients of a very prestigious award (and the associated money/opportunity) decided it was in their best interest to return to university is important. It's important because it cast a pretty serious shadow on Thiel's view of college as unnecessary (or over-rated or not in most people's interest... however you want to hedge his claim.) So while Thiel fellows aren't hurt per se, anyone else listening to the "don't go to college" advice can consider this a rude wake-up call. So. That's why it matters. BTW: recently talked with a HS student who got into Harvard (low income, so full ride), but some startup guy was pressuring him to not go to college and instead take a dev job paying $40k. I consider these sort of people scum. I don't know if they are assuaging their insecurities or what, but I don't know how you can look a youth in the eye and tell them to get a day job making web apps (for someone else) instead of going to Harvard for free for four years. Especially when the free tuition alone costs more than the offered salary. Scum.
- phea 12y ago
  Seems like the criteria use to select Thiel Fellows is the same criteria used by top schools. Probably the reason why many return to school, because they have that option available to them. A better experiment would be something similar to the movie "Trading Places" where they pluck disadvantaged youths from the ghetto, trailer park, or whatever. Send them through a mentorship program or real internship and see if they can become productive citizens. I believe Xavier Neal is on the right track with his School 42.
  - mkal_tsr 12y ago
    "pluck disadvantaged youths from the ghetto, trailer park, or whatever" ... "see if they can become productive citizens" Wow, just wow.
absherwin 12y ago
Spoiler: The students interviewed are a month into their fellowship. Reporting on decisions that fellows from a couple years back actually made would be more enlightening.
- conradev 12y ago
  Another spoiler: Only 6 of this year's 20 fellows were mentioned in the article. The fellows are a very diverse group of people.
  - krrishd 12y ago
    I felt the same way about the series Wired did/is doing on the Thiel Fellowship. I wish they'd cover more of the fellows rather than focusing on the few that they do.
    - conradev 12y ago
      I am one of the guys that lives in the house mentioned in the article. One of the problems with press like this is that it tends to focus on the philosophy behind the fellowship instead of the program itself. It's consistently what reporters find most interesting.
- septerr 12y ago
  Exactly. The title of the article feels like a link bait. It's only been two months!
  - zachlatta 12y ago
    It's also full of shit. I know many of the new fellows and they're saying that they were misquoted in the article and some of them said that they're not planning on going back, despite Techcrunch writing otherwise.
kimonos 12y ago
Kudos to them!
foolrush 12y ago
Sadly, a strong argument could be made that the technology sector / startup scene is perhaps one of the most desperate cultures in need of formal liberal arts knowledge. Sexism, invisible privilege, and other forms of uneducated myopia stand as obvious examples. Interesting technological / sociological solutions to hidden issues possibly another.
- JetSpiegel 12y ago
  You can add total historical ignorance, even for matters related to the product they are building. Reinventing the wheel over and over again.
gexla 12y ago
Bottom line Ask anyone what they plan on doing after X which is 2+ years down the road and you are likely to get a BS answer. They have shown they are willing to a) make a plan and b) take a detour when an opportunity pops up. They will follow opportunity until all that's left is the plan. They can't predict what they will do. Admitting they will return to school means nothing. Personally, I'm guessing once they get on this path they will embark on one opportunity after another. Returning to school will likely never appear as an "opportunity" and they won't go back. Though some of these teens have already had entrepreneurial experiences, they have yet to break the cycle of school.
mkbrody 12y ago
As someone who was influenced by Peter Thiel to drop out of college and do a startup with my room mate, I can say it was a mistake in hindsight. Even though I was able to land on my feet (I'm now 25 and making 6 figures), I had to go through a lot of extra hurdles, stress, and doubt to prove my worth to the world and employers when starting out my career. The odds were greatly against it working out favorably in my circumstances (I went to a tier 3 school, didn't get my startup funded, etc) and I had to possess serious hustle and grit to make it to where I am. I see people who simply studied hard, followed a plan, and graduated from an Ivy or similar college coasting by much easier - that's the path I would take if I could do it over again. Because Peter Thiel was a big influence on my decision 4-5 years ago to drop out, I look back in hindsight on my experience and think he is wrong to advocate a path he didn't take. He went to Stanford, then got a JD, worked at a hedge fund (try getting that job as a college dropout), and then became a monstrous success at PayPal & Founders Fund after building credibility & success. To think he could have replicated his career path as a college dropout is incredulous. The odds are 10x more against you, and many more doors are closed than open (finance, grad school, etc). If you want to be successful there is a very easy path if you're mature enough to work hard during high school: goto the best school you can, study a science, engineering, or finance major, and you will have >50% chance of becoming rich enough to live comfortably and retire if you continue to work hard and hustle after you graduate.
- nostrademons 12y ago
  Are you sure that you wouldn't have had to face those hurdles even if you'd gone to college? I went to Amherst (#1 liberal arts college in the country when I matriculated). A number of my classmates are almost a decade older than you and would love to be making 6 figures. I don't know a single Millenial who hasn't struggled with reality post-graduation. (Actually, that's not quite true, I know a couple Googlers who got in straight out of school. They're a minority, though.) Personally, I think that the biggest advantage a person can have today is to consider rejection Somebody Else's Problem. The people who can get rejected over and over again and still bounce back to full energy immediately tend to succeed no matter where or whether they went to college and no matter what they try.
acjohnson55 12y ago
I think almost everyone who can should go to college. But I also think that a lot of people go to college before they really have any significant life experiences to inform their academic decisions. Consequently, college for many is just deferred adulthood, instead of something that actually facilitates ones' career goals. I'm all for alternative experiences that might help focus young people, whether they be fellowships like this, service programs, apprenticeships, or otherwise.
kator 12y ago
Nothing to see here, these aren't the droids you're looking for.. Seriously how does this prove the program is a failure? Because some people want to go to school and others want to do stuff right out of the gate. This is link bait, pure and simple and it looks like it's working almost as well as declaring some random computer language dead or another one the winner.
GrinningFool 12y ago
"The acrid smell of fresh paint" If the paint is smelling acrid, they should get out ;)
stretchwithme 12y ago
It will be interesting to see how those that return to college feel about that choice after they complete college. They'll have both experiences under their belt and be in the best position to see the relative value of each, at least in their atypical order. Many instructors say more experienced students are more focused than those that enter college right away. That will factor in as well. There are no simple answers to this question, except that pushing everybody to do things one particular way is probably unjustified.
zeeshanm 12y ago
Don't know much about Thiel Fellows program. But I think just dropping out of college flat out to start a startup may not be a good idea. Unless you have been associated with something like a hackerspace where you've collaborated on projects with other like-minded hackers. I feel colleges are where it is a great likelihood to meet your potential co-founders, prospective employees, etc. To give more clarity, I don't think there is any question that Facebook's early success was due to all these Harvard grads/dropouts filling in the recruiting pipeline.
brianchu 12y ago
It's important to keep in mind that it is quite likely that for most of the Thiel Fellows, there is not much "cost" associated with college. Give the high-achieving student, immigrant family skew of the fellows, it's quite likely that most of the fellows would get scholarships or would have parents who would pay for college if they attend. If each fellow had to pay $150-250k for college, I bet not a single Fellow would entertain the idea of going to college. Personally, I took a gap year before college but eventually decided to return to college afterwards, knowing that I would be able to get a $100+k dev salary in the Bay Area if I chose to forgo college. Part of that decision was driven by the fact that my parents would pay for college (and then some). On a broader note, taking just one year off gave me a ton of perspective on what I wanted to do in life, my priorities, and on the value of college. Everyone should take time off.
jeffdavis 12y ago
The students seem to be keeping their options open, but most of the statements don't sound like a "plan" to return to school. The only hard numbers are that 40 completed the program, 40 are enrolled now, and 6 total went back to school. Doesn't sound like half to me, though of course it could work out that way eventually.
jimrandomh 12y ago
The article actually says: "8 of the 20 kids I spoke to in this year’s program said at one point or another in our conversation that they’d consider going back to college after they are done." Which TechCrunch turned into the headline: "Is The Thiel Fellowship Program Really Just A Sabbatical From College?" Which the HN submission turned into: "More than half the Thiel Fellows plan on returning to school" Which looks flagrantly untruthful to me, both because "would consider"!="plan on" and "8 of the 20"!="more than half". So, flagged. Could a moderator please edit this headline to be more honest?
wavesum 12y ago
"Would consider returning to school after the program is not exactly same as "plan on returning to school". Why not write honest headlines?

113 points by sarahbuhr 12y ago

First year Thiel Fellow here. Just wanted to add that the Thiel Foundation(who oversee the program) isn't necessarily against going back to school and never have been. They've been very open that for some projects, academia is a good place to be.

sillysaurus3 12y ago
What are your plans for the future? And if it doesn't work out, do you have anything else in mind? Just curious. Does it get very stressful feeling like you have to live up to everybody's expectations?
- nicklovescode 12y ago
  I'm working on http://usebloom.com http://usebloom.com for the foreseeable future with another Thiel Fellow. I find I learn best by reading books and talking with smart people, both of which can be done outside an academic setting, so I've decided not to go to college.
  - hnnewguy 12y ago
    >I find I learn best by reading books and talking with smart people How do you know how you "learn best" as a 16-19 year old who has never even been to college?
    - cgcardona 12y ago
      Perhaps they've spent most of their life studying and learning and have taken mental note of what works best for them.
      - hnnewguy 12y ago
        >Perhaps they've spent most of their life studying Most of their life studying? How much relevant experience do you think one obtains in years 0 to 16? Up to that point school is a complete and utter joke, especially if you're even modestly intelligent. A 16-19 year old, no matter how intelligent, doesn't have much wisdom.
        mkal_tsr 12y ago
        "A 16-19 year old, no matter how intelligent, doesn't have much wisdom." I couldn't help but be reminded by the Good Will Hunting scene - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjWHfBHKos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBjWHfBHKos
      - calinet6 12y ago
        To be quite blunt, most of their life is not a very long time. I, too, had a good idea of my learning style and aptitude going into college. It has not changed all that much since. What did change was my ability to use that learning style to link together fields, knowledge, information, and people that appear extremely complex and disparate on their own. The world needs specialists, for sure, and perhaps you can level up your knowledge in the field of your interest by using books and web research. That's valuable. If you really want to be valuable, do what no one else seems to be able to do right now: put everything together. Everything. Not just different parts of your own field, but throw chemistry and poetry and literature in there. How about music? How does that affect your work? What about history and philosophy or shoot, most importantly, psychology? How will you not only create great products, but also know how they affect people, and exactly what ways other people will think about them? How will you discover what people really need if you don't understand them on a basic level? What about theology and philosophy? If you just rejected the possibility of their importance to your work, then you're not the kind of person I want to work with. Rejection of knowledge is already failure. College, above all, gives you breadth and the tools to deal with it. Use that and you'll be ten times more valuable than even the best specialist. Can you get that elsewhere? Maybe. Does everyone need it? Probably not. But I've never seen anything that kicks you out of your own head more swiftly or effectively than a good university—and that alone makes you better in my book.
    - aik 12y ago
      I can very honestly say I never learned how to learn in college. I was finally forced to learn as soon as I finished and entered the "real world".
      - hnnewguy 12y ago
        That's precisely my point. You tried it, it wasn't for you. It isn't for everyone. But trying it out is important. I mean, the OP said he learns best being surrounded by books and smart people; that's college in a nutshell. You're unlikely to ever find a better library.
    - nmrm 12y ago
      > How do you know how you "learn best" as a 16-19 year old who has never even been to college? I think I understood how I learn best by the time I was in middle school or so. Hasn't changed much since then.
  - foolrush 12y ago
    While plausible, there is an aspect of a filter bubble / confirmation bias you are ignoring that comes with a formal degree. In particular, liberal arts degrees. Being forced to look beyond one's bubble is extremely rewarding. Being forced to tackle trying tomes of knowledge that test the will may be the only chance one can have to learn on certain topics. The whole “skip university” trope is a sad meme to push were it only for these reasons. It is sadder still when one performs a reducto ad absurdun where the sole metric is formal education as monetary gain. Where would our culture be without music, literature, philosophy, and art? Is there value in studying these worlds beyond monetary gain? What sort of an elevated impact might the brilliant minds around HN offer with a diverse and eclectic formal education?
    - nmrm 12y ago
      Since all my other comments are quite negative, I'll take a moment to defend the OP here. Notice their justification begins with "I find I learn best...". Sounds like perhaps the best way to justify a decision about one's education. As for breadth, it's true. College makes accumulating these experiences very easily. Luckily, there are lots of smart people out there for anyone who might want to broaden their horizons while not attending college. In fact, part of the point of college is realizing this is true and figuring out how to benefit from these opportunities.
    - aik 12y ago
      I believe the "skip university" trope is sad. I also believe "everyone has to go to college" is sad. There is a huge disparity between universities -- I went to an average state university, and in most aspects I firmly believe it was more damaging to my being than helpful (it has been over 5 years since I graduated and I am still realizing and overcoming personal problems that I believe were partly inculcated in me from college and K-12). My sisters went to decent liberal arts universities and, through observation, believe theirs to much more worthwhile. Of course each person is different, so others may not have had as worthless of an experience as I did. Point being that (although I can't back this up) I'm pretty sure no university is better than 50%+ of universities out there, and so the endless expectation bias is often harmful.
kevingadd 12y ago
"Thiel Fellows are given a no-strings-attached grant of $100,000 to skip college" - thielfellowship.org "The fellowship is intended for students under the age of 20 and offers them a total of $100,000 over two years as well as guidance and other resources to drop out of school" - Wikipedia "Everybody believes that you need to go to college... the average plumber makes as much as the average doctor." - Peter Thiel in video interview: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/billionaire-offers-college-alternative/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/billionaire-offers-college-alter... If the Thiel Fellowship isn't about convincing kids to drop out of college and not go back, someone should tell Peter Thiel and the person that runs the website. :-) Glad to hear the fellowship is working out great for you, though! I'm not a big fan of college myself.
- nicklovescode 12y ago
  To be clear, you cannot be enrolled at a university and go through the Fellowship at the same time. My comment above referred to post-Fellowship.
- joshhart 12y ago
  Peter Thiel is lying. Plumbers make about 1/4 as much money as a doctor: http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/plumber/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/physician/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/physician/salary
  - adamcanady 12y ago
    Haven't done the math myself, but if you factor in years of salary earned while the doctor in training would be at school/residency/fellowship and the salary on that page is for folks who have been at it for a while and either have a private practice with many clients or have been in academia for 10-15 years.
  - ef4 12y ago
    That's a misleading way of comparing them because the doctor has radically higher startup costs in both time and money. Once that's factored in, the doctor still has higher lifetime earnings, but not nearly the 4x you're pointing at. More like 1.8x. And it's not until about age 40 that the doctor breaks even relative to the plumber. And the doctor can only pull all that off in the first place with access to about $500,000 in credit.

outside1234 12y ago

Only half?

gwern 12y ago
Exactly. 50% - compared to what? Weren't all these people accepted to prestigious colleges and ~100% likely to go to college? Or, was there some reason to think in advance that 50% shows the program is a failure while if 40% would vindicate it? The more interesting question is, what are the 50% who don't want to go back doing now? Those are the ones whose circumstances would tell us something meaningful about how well the Thiel thing is working.

deleted 12y ago

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jblow 12y ago

Very weird one-sided article containing no details of substance, like how the actual projects are going and what has been implemented.

IanDrake 12y ago

And the point is? Did anyone else go to college with that person that seemed a little older, seemed to know how to better apply what they were learning, and asked the questions that suggested they had an advanced understanding? I did. These were guys/gals who got jobs right out of high school and were now getting their degrees. And they spanked the typical undergrads. So, is article this telling me that this is the worst case from the Thiel Fellows? OK. Great. Next.

fleitz 12y ago
Couldn't agree more, I'm thinking about going back for my degree, but mostly for how easy it makes it to cross borders.

saganus 12y ago

[quote]He views the Fellows program as a two year education of sorts. “If and when I return to college I can have a new perspective.”[/quote] I think this is the important bit. You get the experience of doing something uncommon, the benefit of being with like-minded individuals pursuing their own ideas and dreams... with the benefit of going back to school if you wish, a couple of years older if you want, but with much more real-world experience (to a degree) than those same 2 years spent only at college. I think the real difference will be made by those that go back to school actually. Not by virtue of spending those 2 years at the Mission house, but by virtue of going back to school, learning whatever skills are necessary to then go produce something taking advantage of both worlds.

philip1209 12y ago

The Thiel Fellowship still needs a success story. It is in its early stages. All it will take is a single fellow that accomplishes something revolutionary and cool to completely change public perception of this program.

SilasX 12y ago
I thought the relevant success metric would be whether the median student does better, in order for it to be a case against going to college.
- philip1209 12y ago
  Thiel is accountable to nobody for the results of this program. It's more of an experiment. It becomes a more powerful tool for the members if the media likes the program, and a single shining success is what the media requires.
  - judk 12y ago
    It's not an experiment, it's a bizarre political propaganda effort in service of some chip Thiel has on his shoulder.
nicklovescode 12y ago
I agree that a major success story would chance public perception of the Fellowship, but I want to add that many of the Fellows who have had success have decided not to publicize it.
morgante 12y ago
> The Thiel Fellowship still needs a success story. It is in its early stages. All it will take is a single fellow that accomplishes something revolutionary and cool to completely change public perception of this program. Perhaps that will change the public perception, but it says absolutely nothing about the actual value of the program. It's a selective group of high-achieving teens, of course some small subset will go on to experience amazing success. Harvard could lay off its entire faculty and sell its campus, but as long as admissions stayed the same Harvard acceptees would continue to accomplish amazing things.

7Figures2Commas 12y ago

Is this really surprising? Thiel Fellows are by in large precisely the type of individuals who most belong on a university campus. Many of them, by virtue of their interests in science, math and engineering, will find it difficult to advance those interests professionally outside of the university environment. The young folks who really need the encouragement and permission to take a path that doesn't involve a four year university are those who aren't prepared intellectually or socially and those whose aptitudes and interests point to vocational training. In my opinion the Thiel Fellowship program is a poor vehicle for questioning the necessity of a university education and calling attention to the higher education bubble. Unless the program starts serving future plumbers and electricians instead of future engineers and doctors, it has no business being promoted as such a vehicle.

kanzure 12y ago
> Many of them, by virtue of their interests in science, math and engineering, will find it difficult to advance those interests professionally outside of the university environment. Would more money solve that problem? If 100k is legitimately not enough to "advance professional interests", then what about 200k? 500k? 1M? Also, consider the subset of them wanting to do a biotech startup, where everyone pitching must be a PhD (reality isn't this bad)--- $100k of pre-vet is probably not enough to make up for the lack of credentials to flash around to raise money to do the more costly biotech ventures.

nmrm 12y ago

This matters because the Thiel Fellowship program has a political backdrop, and is motivated by/supports the "you don't need college" message. That message, should an average American (not a Thiel fellow) take it to heart, is demonstrably and empirically not in their self interest. Period. Thiel Fellows are some of the brightest of the bright; of course not attending college won't hurt them in the long run. And accepting a prestigious fellowship will certainly help, at the very least in the short run. So the fellowship makes a lot of sense, and no one claims fellows were hurt just because they return to academia. However, the fact that 1/2 of recipients of a very prestigious award (and the associated money/opportunity) decided it was in their best interest to return to university is important. It's important because it cast a pretty serious shadow on Thiel's view of college as unnecessary (or over-rated or not in most people's interest... however you want to hedge his claim.) So while Thiel fellows aren't hurt per se, anyone else listening to the "don't go to college" advice can consider this a rude wake-up call. So. That's why it matters. BTW: recently talked with a HS student who got into Harvard (low income, so full ride), but some startup guy was pressuring him to not go to college and instead take a dev job paying $40k. I consider these sort of people scum. I don't know if they are assuaging their insecurities or what, but I don't know how you can look a youth in the eye and tell them to get a day job making web apps (for someone else) instead of going to Harvard for free for four years. Especially when the free tuition alone costs more than the offered salary. Scum.

phea 12y ago
Seems like the criteria use to select Thiel Fellows is the same criteria used by top schools. Probably the reason why many return to school, because they have that option available to them. A better experiment would be something similar to the movie "Trading Places" where they pluck disadvantaged youths from the ghetto, trailer park, or whatever. Send them through a mentorship program or real internship and see if they can become productive citizens. I believe Xavier Neal is on the right track with his School 42.
- mkal_tsr 12y ago
  "pluck disadvantaged youths from the ghetto, trailer park, or whatever" ... "see if they can become productive citizens" Wow, just wow.

absherwin 12y ago

Spoiler: The students interviewed are a month into their fellowship. Reporting on decisions that fellows from a couple years back actually made would be more enlightening.

conradev 12y ago
Another spoiler: Only 6 of this year's 20 fellows were mentioned in the article. The fellows are a very diverse group of people.
- krrishd 12y ago
  I felt the same way about the series Wired did/is doing on the Thiel Fellowship. I wish they'd cover more of the fellows rather than focusing on the few that they do.
  - conradev 12y ago
    I am one of the guys that lives in the house mentioned in the article. One of the problems with press like this is that it tends to focus on the philosophy behind the fellowship instead of the program itself. It's consistently what reporters find most interesting.
septerr 12y ago
Exactly. The title of the article feels like a link bait. It's only been two months!
- zachlatta 12y ago
  It's also full of shit. I know many of the new fellows and they're saying that they were misquoted in the article and some of them said that they're not planning on going back, despite Techcrunch writing otherwise.

kimonos 12y ago

Kudos to them!

foolrush 12y ago

Sadly, a strong argument could be made that the technology sector / startup scene is perhaps one of the most desperate cultures in need of formal liberal arts knowledge. Sexism, invisible privilege, and other forms of uneducated myopia stand as obvious examples. Interesting technological / sociological solutions to hidden issues possibly another.

JetSpiegel 12y ago
You can add total historical ignorance, even for matters related to the product they are building. Reinventing the wheel over and over again.

gexla 12y ago

Bottom line Ask anyone what they plan on doing after X which is 2+ years down the road and you are likely to get a BS answer. They have shown they are willing to a) make a plan and b) take a detour when an opportunity pops up. They will follow opportunity until all that's left is the plan. They can't predict what they will do. Admitting they will return to school means nothing. Personally, I'm guessing once they get on this path they will embark on one opportunity after another. Returning to school will likely never appear as an "opportunity" and they won't go back. Though some of these teens have already had entrepreneurial experiences, they have yet to break the cycle of school.

mkbrody 12y ago

As someone who was influenced by Peter Thiel to drop out of college and do a startup with my room mate, I can say it was a mistake in hindsight. Even though I was able to land on my feet (I'm now 25 and making 6 figures), I had to go through a lot of extra hurdles, stress, and doubt to prove my worth to the world and employers when starting out my career. The odds were greatly against it working out favorably in my circumstances (I went to a tier 3 school, didn't get my startup funded, etc) and I had to possess serious hustle and grit to make it to where I am. I see people who simply studied hard, followed a plan, and graduated from an Ivy or similar college coasting by much easier - that's the path I would take if I could do it over again. Because Peter Thiel was a big influence on my decision 4-5 years ago to drop out, I look back in hindsight on my experience and think he is wrong to advocate a path he didn't take. He went to Stanford, then got a JD, worked at a hedge fund (try getting that job as a college dropout), and then became a monstrous success at PayPal & Founders Fund after building credibility & success. To think he could have replicated his career path as a college dropout is incredulous. The odds are 10x more against you, and many more doors are closed than open (finance, grad school, etc). If you want to be successful there is a very easy path if you're mature enough to work hard during high school: goto the best school you can, study a science, engineering, or finance major, and you will have >50% chance of becoming rich enough to live comfortably and retire if you continue to work hard and hustle after you graduate.

nostrademons 12y ago
Are you sure that you wouldn't have had to face those hurdles even if you'd gone to college? I went to Amherst (#1 liberal arts college in the country when I matriculated). A number of my classmates are almost a decade older than you and would love to be making 6 figures. I don't know a single Millenial who hasn't struggled with reality post-graduation. (Actually, that's not quite true, I know a couple Googlers who got in straight out of school. They're a minority, though.) Personally, I think that the biggest advantage a person can have today is to consider rejection Somebody Else's Problem. The people who can get rejected over and over again and still bounce back to full energy immediately tend to succeed no matter where or whether they went to college and no matter what they try.

acjohnson55 12y ago

I think almost everyone who can should go to college. But I also think that a lot of people go to college before they really have any significant life experiences to inform their academic decisions. Consequently, college for many is just deferred adulthood, instead of something that actually facilitates ones' career goals. I'm all for alternative experiences that might help focus young people, whether they be fellowships like this, service programs, apprenticeships, or otherwise.

kator 12y ago

Nothing to see here, these aren't the droids you're looking for.. Seriously how does this prove the program is a failure? Because some people want to go to school and others want to do stuff right out of the gate. This is link bait, pure and simple and it looks like it's working almost as well as declaring some random computer language dead or another one the winner.

GrinningFool 12y ago

"The acrid smell of fresh paint" If the paint is smelling acrid, they should get out ;)

stretchwithme 12y ago

It will be interesting to see how those that return to college feel about that choice after they complete college. They'll have both experiences under their belt and be in the best position to see the relative value of each, at least in their atypical order. Many instructors say more experienced students are more focused than those that enter college right away. That will factor in as well. There are no simple answers to this question, except that pushing everybody to do things one particular way is probably unjustified.

zeeshanm 12y ago

Don't know much about Thiel Fellows program. But I think just dropping out of college flat out to start a startup may not be a good idea. Unless you have been associated with something like a hackerspace where you've collaborated on projects with other like-minded hackers. I feel colleges are where it is a great likelihood to meet your potential co-founders, prospective employees, etc. To give more clarity, I don't think there is any question that Facebook's early success was due to all these Harvard grads/dropouts filling in the recruiting pipeline.

brianchu 12y ago

It's important to keep in mind that it is quite likely that for most of the Thiel Fellows, there is not much "cost" associated with college. Give the high-achieving student, immigrant family skew of the fellows, it's quite likely that most of the fellows would get scholarships or would have parents who would pay for college if they attend. If each fellow had to pay $150-250k for college, I bet not a single Fellow would entertain the idea of going to college. Personally, I took a gap year before college but eventually decided to return to college afterwards, knowing that I would be able to get a $100+k dev salary in the Bay Area if I chose to forgo college. Part of that decision was driven by the fact that my parents would pay for college (and then some). On a broader note, taking just one year off gave me a ton of perspective on what I wanted to do in life, my priorities, and on the value of college. Everyone should take time off.

jeffdavis 12y ago

The students seem to be keeping their options open, but most of the statements don't sound like a "plan" to return to school. The only hard numbers are that 40 completed the program, 40 are enrolled now, and 6 total went back to school. Doesn't sound like half to me, though of course it could work out that way eventually.

jimrandomh 12y ago

The article actually says: "8 of the 20 kids I spoke to in this year’s program said at one point or another in our conversation that they’d consider going back to college after they are done." Which TechCrunch turned into the headline: "Is The Thiel Fellowship Program Really Just A Sabbatical From College?" Which the HN submission turned into: "More than half the Thiel Fellows plan on returning to school" Which looks flagrantly untruthful to me, both because "would consider"!="plan on" and "8 of the 20"!="more than half". So, flagged. Could a moderator please edit this headline to be more honest?

wavesum 12y ago

"Would consider returning to school after the program is not exactly same as "plan on returning to school". Why not write honest headlines?