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How Google Map Hackers Can Destroy a Business at Will

152 points by cryptoz 12y ago

southflorida 12y ago
if google is going to take it upon themselves to list a business they should be held accountable and the information should be accurate. google listed the business without his consent and it was incorrect information. i hope he wins... google listing a business that is closed on weekends could have been detrimental in this case. the business owner doesnt need to change because technology has evolved beyond his understanding, google should have never listed the business to begin with. google = giant scraper site of misinformation.
- pavel_lishin 12y ago
  > the business owner doesnt need to change because technology has evolved beyond his understanding I agree with the general sentiment of your comment, but I disagree with that line in particular. If you disagree, please sent your reply via the Pony Express to the Harlem Public House; I shall check with the barman therein to see if your letter arrives every other Sunday.
  - mcguire 12y ago
    Note: IIRC, the pony express was a transport mechanism for the US mail service, which has the same API today. And if you do send a letter to someone C/O the Harlem Public House, said establishment still exists and is willing to hold mail, and you do check it periodically, you will very likely get the letter.
hyperliner 12y ago
To what extent is a weapon or a tool at fault, instead of the shooter or user? This reminds me of Google bombing (for example, the attack on Rick Santorum, a Senator whose ideas we can all disagree with). It seems to me that there is a responsibility here for Google. Google has become in effect the only way for small businesses to get or not get exposure, and the way Google automates the process without authorization causes these fringe problems. Fringe for Google, lethal for the business owner. I think it is in Google's best interest to improve the process through which they deal with the problems, and maybe even help prosecute those who created them. Unfortunately, I also think they see these as collateral damage in a battle to create the most automated system that works 99.99999% of the time. On the other hand, it is a shame this biz owner had no computer expertise nor knew to take care of his online reputation and information. Just like people and Linkedin or github, businesses need to take responsibility. As in any transitions, some people will be left behind, and it seems there is not a lot we can do to avoid that.
- VikingCoder 12y ago
  The business owner needs to care what their online presence (including their Google Places) looks like. There is nothing Google or anyone else can do, if the business doesn't care. When the business does care, there are lots of options to clean up their online presence.
  - benihana 12y ago
    Did you read the article? This isn't a case of the owner not caring; he didn't know that google maps was incorrectly reporting his hours. It took a phone call from a customer. And that's the problem - why would he ever think that people weren't coming to his restaurant because a map service messed up his hours? As is clear from this article, that was very low on his checklist of things that might be killing my business.
    - pmontra 12y ago
      Yes, and more than that: he didn't know what Google Map is. He is 74 and can be excused for that. Fast forward ourselves into our 70+: how many new things we won't know or care about then?
      - wutbrodo 12y ago
        I think everyone here is sympathetic to the idea that a 74 year-old shouldn't have to keep up with every new technology, but you seem to be forgetting the fact that he's running a business. Not knowing what Maps is is fine for a random consumer, but excusing a restaurant owner for not knowing about online map services is basically saying that he's no longer competent to run the restaurant.
        VikingCoder 12y ago
        ...or knowing that he doesn't know about "that online stuff," and hiring someone who does know about it to help him manage it. It's a cost of business.
boobsbr 12y ago
One more reason why I don't trust POIs I find on Google Maps. I always try to find the actual business' page to check for phones and opening and closing hours.
- post_break 12y ago
  But it's a restaurant so you know they like to not list the phone number, hours, or menu (sarcasm).
  - nnnnni 12y ago
    You've also got to love how the menu is always done in flash, so you most likely can't view it on a phone...
    - wutbrodo 12y ago
      Tangent: You can still view Flash on most phones sold, no? I think as long as you're using something other than Chrome (like FF).
      - nnnnni 12y ago
        There are ways to do it, but I'm pretty sure that it was dropped even for Android a year or so ago. Regardless, it's a pain to navigate flash restaurant menus. Just give me a plain list!
        wutbrodo 12y ago
        No for sure, I wasn't disagreeing with the comment (hence the tangent disclaimer), just pointing out something that most people have a misconception about. I'm pretty sure that you can still install Flash on Android, just not in Chrome (or probably the stock browser, where it still exists); My phone has KitKat on it and I can use the Flash plugin as long as I switch to Firefox.
  - swalkergibson 12y ago
j_m_b 12y ago
"The Serbian Crown closed its doors after nearly 40 years in the same location." Oh sure... blame it on Google Maps telling people you aren't open on Sat, Sun, Mon. I guess your regulars, who you've built up over 40 years, don't know when you're open unless they look at Google maps. Even the owner himself says "If you’re going there, it’s because you’ve planned to go there." I imagine his problem could be more accurately blamed on the decor (it looks hideous on the outside and that doesn't bode well for the inside) and the low quality of food being served (unless there are lion,kangaroo and bear farms in Virginia than that meat has probably been frozen). With that being said, Google maps is far from perfect. They really should have a way for business owners that they list to be able to update their store information, especially for small businesses. How hard would it be to implement a callback system that allowed an owner to make simple updates to hours of business or to delete false/inaccurate listings? I guess they're too busy trying to find places in their code base to replace 'if' statements with bayesian filtering.
- vinceguidry 12y ago
  From the article: Demonstrating causation between a bad Google Maps listing and Serbian Crown’s decline is going to be hard, though. For one thing, the restaurant’s Yelp listing—also a big factor in choosing a dinner reservation—is packed with abysmal, almost frightening, reviews. And there are any number of reasons a restaurant—even an old, established one—can fail, as Google’s lawyers pointed out an angry June 17 motion to dismiss the lawsuit. People don't read anymore.
  - woodchuck64 12y ago
    Does the article actually thoroughly discredit its own title? People don't write anymore.
    - vinceguidry 12y ago
      The article didn't discredit anything. The title is "How Google Map Hackers Can Destroy a Business at Will" not "How Google Map Hackers Destroyed Serbian Crown".
deleted 12y ago
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drivingmenuts 12y ago
This is an example of one of the major problems of crowd-sourcing: trust. There is no way to verify that the integrity of the submitter, who could be giving wrong information due to malice, incompetence, or as a prank. There's entirely too much trust in crowdsourcing.
- Vik1ng 12y ago
  I think the real problem is this google has the half baked crowd-sourcing. Where you actually have a closed system and then let some people crowd source on top of it and have different ranks and people approving. It's the same reason Wikipedia is losing editors, because people don't want to wait for some admin to approve it. In OpenStreetMap as a community project which is know as such people are much more likely to report things (on the German website there is even a big button for that). It takes longer for a edit to be approved in google map maker than people get easy stuff fixed in OpenStreetMap in my area. If I check my notes RSS feed after 1 week then most of the errors are already fixed. Edit: +1 Cthulhu_ Google=private company
  - spot 12y ago
    OSM is still so irrelevant that the spammers and scammers have not targeted it yet. Once they do, it will have the same problems Google does, but worse because they don't have the resources to fight back. It is much easier to fix mistakes than it is to fight an active adversary.
    - xorcist 12y ago
      Your prediction fails to account for the fact that Wikipedia can manage the problem, and they are probably the most important information source there is while still being by far the easiest to edit. What makes you think it is impossible for OSM to do it? (Also, a bit dishonest to call OSM irrelevant when it is the canonical data source for a number of famous application, including Apple, even if it's not directly applicable to the situation here.)
      - 12y ago
chdir 12y ago
If you are running a popular place, whether you like it or not, you'll end up on Google controlled listings. Unfortunately, there's little help for a non-tech savvy business owner to fix problems with listings or fake reviews or even removal of genuine reviews. This is an area where they need to be held accountable. If you are wielding so much power, you need to handle it responsibly and error in favor of business owners rather than community. Most web companies prefer the approach of 'act now, apologize later' or maybe never to garner users. I've had so many web services (including Facebook) create accounts using my email address without my approval (maybe because the other person used phone verification). Now if I want to claim back my email address on that web service, they put the burden on me to provide a photo ID. Using my email address is partially impersonating me because my contacts might have uploaded their address book and FB allows that willy nilly.
- tedunangst 12y ago
  If it's your email, can't you just send a password reset?
  - chdir 12y ago
    With Facebook, no. My guess is that if you've verified with a phone number, they make it difficult to reset by an unverified email (they favor the fake user and assume that the email was entered incorrectly). Moreover, I don't want to take over someone's account if they've been ignorant about entering the email incorrectly. They still own the data. However I do report that I didn't create this account. Services like FB blacklist the email address in that case. As a result, I can't use that email in future without giving a photo ID (never gonna happen).
  - BSousa 12y ago
    Not with facebook last time I tried. Had the same problem, someone used my email to create a facebook account and now I can't get it back without going through various loops that I honestly don't care about. I just put anything that is related to facebook to be automatically deleted and my friends know I hate FB and I'm not there, so if someone 'friends' them thinking it's me, I think only 2-3 people I know wouldn't suspect it.
Semaphor 12y ago
The yelp review paint a picture of 2010: Great food, great service 2011: Good to great food, horrible service 2012: Horrible food, horrible service I usually don't trust yelp, but the decline is way too visible here.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  People love to bash yelp, but it's merely a reflection of the fact that People Are Dicks Check the reviews, there's also how many reviews and friends the person has. The lower these two numbers are, the most likely the review is fake (either pro or against) Also check how balanced the review is. Most legitimate ones are fair, and won't go over the top either way And of course, there's always someone that's going to complain about a sushi restaurant serving raw fish.
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  What exactly is yelp telling you? I'm something of a foodie and am stunned at how inaccurate the reviews are for most restaurants. Most of the reviews seem to come from a minority "elite" users who are chronic whiners and come off as terribly immature. Its just incredible what people ding establishments for. "Fries came late, this place sucks! Zero stars!" Some people think the issue with yelp and google reviews is trust. Its not. Its entitlement and a lack of proper criteria. The types of people who gravitate towards these reviews and become frequent reviewers are often people with poor taste and a lack of understanding of what they are reviewing. They're not crowd-sourced Robger Eberts. They're your cranky local paper's film critic who thinks 'naughty language' is the most unforgivable sin. If anything, services like yelp have made me appreciate the art of criticism and a lot of my dining decisions are now done via professional critics with good reputations instead of the usual gang of misanthropes and weirdos who dominate yelp.
  - Semaphor 12y ago
    This was the second time I really read through reviews on yelp. The first time I was reading reviews about a restaurant I love and reviewing it myself. And when I say I don't trust yelp, I meant the user base :)
troymc 12y ago
Aren't there large-scale services to whom a small business owner can pay an annual subscription fee, where the service will monitor the accuracy of their Google, Yelp, Open Street Map, Wikipedia, Yellowpages, etc. information? The article mentions some person on a retainer who does this on a shop-by-shop basis, but it seems to me that this is something that can be automated and scaled.
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  I believe http://www.reputation.com/ http://www.reputation.com/ does this.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- funkdobiest 12y ago
  Here is a free one( up to 5 listings) that feeds Google https://mybusinesslistingmanager.com https://mybusinesslistingmanager.com
- mierle 12y ago
  GoDaddy's Get Found does this; http://getfound.com http://getfound.com. Disclaimer: I work at GoDaddy on Get Found.
will_brown 12y ago
It would seem to me these types of hacks are very risky in light of the recent lawsuits involving bogus Yelp reviews. Specifically, Yelp was forced by the courts to reveal the real identities behind bogus reviews, and further individuals have been held personally liable for defamation. Though the Google Map hacks may not fall under a cause of action for defamation (thought it may), certainly I could see rather large judgments under a theory of tortious interference with business contracts/business relationships. These suits permit not just damages for economic loss, but also punitive damages.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - hughdbrown 12y ago
    How does the First Amendment apply to Yelp reviewers? Is Congress making laws that abridge the rights of free speech in Yelp reviews? On a separate point, I think the percentage of customers a corrupt business owner could defraud is pretty low. Happy customers may post reviews, but defrauded customers will go after a business like angry hornets. A small number of frauds will become a disproportionate number of negative reviews.
    - will_brown 12y ago
      With the comment deleted above, it is difficult to place the context of yours. However, the following is probably relevant/insightful either way: Judge William Petty wrote that the negative reviews in question were not protected by the First Amendment because "If the reviewer was never a customer of the business, then the review is not an opinion; instead, the review is based on a false statement of fact ... And 'there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact.'"
deleted 12y ago
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nicolethenerd 12y ago
In case any of you have a business w/ a physical location, yext.com sells a service that lets you manage these details (business hours, location, phone #, etc) across several different sites (Bing, Mapquest, Yahoo, etc + ~50 others), rather than handling them all individually. (Disclaimer: my partner works there - but I don't get a commission or anything :-) Just seemed relevant to the discussion)
- Gracana 12y ago
  Can yext do anything to protect you from attacks like those mentioned in the linked article?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - eightofdiamonds 12y ago
    They can lock down the listing so that only you can edit them with their partner sites. But it wouldn't work in this case since they are not partnered with Google. We just had a presentation from them at my work a few weeks ago.
    - mcguire 12y ago
      Officially "taking ownership" of a record with Google doesn't prevent community edits?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- SquareWheel 12y ago
  Why the heck can't I scroll down on the results page? It keeps resetting my position when I use the scroll bar.
- eightofdiamonds 12y ago
  Yext can't manage Google listings though which is important to note. No 3rd party is able to directly manage Google listings.
jokoon 12y ago
I always wondered about this, but now it's obvious: google doesn't make sure those business info are accurate, it might have a huge cost to verify those info, for example asking for some paperwork to check. openstreetmap, on the other hand, seems much more trustful on this, since it's moderated a little like wikipedia is. I guess if openstreetmap was more popular, you might start to see similar problems described in that article. I'm sure even governments would not want to give the data of businesses opening/closing for free.
- dclowd9901 12y ago
  As a business owner, it's your job to make sure those listings are accurate, just as it would be you would want to make sure the yellow pages had your right phone number. There's no excuse for technological illiteracy or ignorance, and if you don't want to bother to be in charge of your online presence, you had better hire someone for the job.
  - Crisco 12y ago
    What if the owner has no idea that his business even has an online presence? I can see that being very common amongst older business owners, especially if they have never even used Google before.
    - maxerickson 12y ago
      I think if the gp had said "As a business owner, it's in your best interests...", there would be less to argue about (without really changing the meaning). I think it's likely that he had little interest in the online presence of his business, but he must also have missed opportunities to better manage it (I'm thinking of information from a chamber of commerce or similar, or just conversations with people).
  - jokoon 12y ago
    > There's no excuse for technological illiteracy or ignorance I know the internet is much more popular since the last 10 years, but I don't think everyone is really up to it. There are still big opportunities to scam people who don't have the minimum of tech savyness: viruses, etc. The internet is still a jungle with not enough laws.
sirdogealot 12y ago
They were in business for 40 years... and Google maps just recently started incorrectly listing their hours. I highly doubt that the google maps error caused or even contributed to the downfall of their apparently well established business.
frankydp 12y ago
If you have ever used mapmaker, and attempted to update/modify POI and roads, then you will be aware of the strange and unvalidated process of accepting and denying changes to Gmaps. There are more than a couple bad actors that are Approved Google map moderators. I am not sure if their collective actions for denying and modifying changes are a net good or net positive. It has always seemed strange that someone from Washington state can deny a detailed and documented road/POI change in Florida. I really enjoy editing/contributing to Gmaps, but the seemingly random/poisonous moderation process in that ecosystem is a huge turn off. Sorry if this is a tad off topic.
- freyfogle 12y ago
  Out of curiosity, have you tried OpenStreetMap? You get the same enjoyment of editing without the "random/poisonous moderation process", plus the data you contribute is open, rather than private property.
  - Crito 12y ago
    Do you know what OpenStreetMap has done to avoid the toxic editing community? Wikipedia also has a problem with a toxic community; are they doing something different?
    - Vik1ng 12y ago
      Not so much what OpenStreetMap has done, but simply due to the nature of the project one big difference is, that OSM maps what is on the ground. So there isn't going to be a discussion if that river is relevant or not, if there is a river you map it. Other things like opening hours here are usually also easy to verify, IF you do so. So it will be more if it belongs into the database or not, but even if it doesn't there is often no big harm if tags aren't misused. And then there are Quality assurance tools: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quality_assurance http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quality_assurance Right now most of them are more geared toward detecting accidental errors, but it is pretty safe to say that once OSM becomes more popular there will also be tools optimized to detect vandalism. I also feel like it's a lot easier to get in touch with the community, at least here in Germany: http://www.openstreetmap.de/community.html http://www.openstreetmap.de/community.html I actually still haven't found a simple German Wikipedia Forum where I could just discuss a page, which is something that really helps new users.
hnriot 12y ago
The world is a better place without a restaurant serving bear meat.
- pests 12y ago
  If you read the article you would see it no longer serves bear meat.
  - trhway 12y ago
    it was still serving lion, horse, kangaroo... Good riddance. Time has changed and the owner just didn't notice it. He blames it on Google while his business simply fell out of fashion.
derekp7 12y ago
Would this type of hack fall under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act? If so, it seems like an easy case to prosecute (the person committing the act has a financial profit motive, the public would like to see genuine bad actors get punished, etc). Or does the CFAA not apply because this isn't a protected resources?
- scintill76 12y ago
  Maybe it could count as "knowingly and with intent to defraud, accesses a protected computer without authorization, or exceeds authorized access, and by means of such conduct furthers the intended fraud and obtains anything of value".[0] But they only bring out that kind of prosecutorial initiative and creativity, if you downloaded a bunch of academic articles after previously identifying yourself as a bit of a troublemaker (Aaron Swartz). Who cares about some old immigrant's restaurant? OK, enough cynicism for today.. [0] http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030
csandreasen 12y ago
Several years ago my spouse and I took a vacation abroad and booked a tour with a local company. The guide was really shocked when I told him that I went with their company because they had negative reviews. All of the touring companies had fairly amateur web sites, but with the exception of this company, all of the Yelp reviews were glowing, 5-star, nothing-went-wrong-with-this-trip reviews. His company had fairly good reviews, with one or two one-star reviews from angry customers that cancelled at the last minute and didn't get their deposit back. I expect a few bad reviews - nobody runs their business in such a manner that every customer is satisfied 100% of the time. If I see nothing but outstanding reviews, I'm going to assume they're all fake.
- steven777400 12y ago
  Especially key is also what the bad reviews are for. Like in your case, you identify the bad reviews are unreasonable expectations. Bad reviews with claimed reasonable cause may be worth a little more pause. Also important is number of reviews. I'd rather have a solid 4/5 product with 100 reviews than a straight 5 star product reviewed only 3 times.
  - soperj 12y ago
    And now I know when faking product reviews to throw a few bad ones in there ;)
  - r00fus 12y ago
    Well, if there is a bad review that has a response from the company, that reflects well in my opinion, unless there are a large number of them. Not sure if it's possible for vendors on Yelp to reply to their customers in the forum, but I see this all the time on Amazon.

152 points by cryptoz 12y ago

if google is going to take it upon themselves to list a business they should be held accountable and the information should be accurate. google listed the business without his consent and it was incorrect information. i hope he wins... google listing a business that is closed on weekends could have been detrimental in this case. the business owner doesnt need to change because technology has evolved beyond his understanding, google should have never listed the business to begin with. google = giant scraper site of misinformation.

pavel_lishin 12y ago
> the business owner doesnt need to change because technology has evolved beyond his understanding I agree with the general sentiment of your comment, but I disagree with that line in particular. If you disagree, please sent your reply via the Pony Express to the Harlem Public House; I shall check with the barman therein to see if your letter arrives every other Sunday.
- mcguire 12y ago
  Note: IIRC, the pony express was a transport mechanism for the US mail service, which has the same API today. And if you do send a letter to someone C/O the Harlem Public House, said establishment still exists and is willing to hold mail, and you do check it periodically, you will very likely get the letter.

hyperliner 12y ago

To what extent is a weapon or a tool at fault, instead of the shooter or user? This reminds me of Google bombing (for example, the attack on Rick Santorum, a Senator whose ideas we can all disagree with). It seems to me that there is a responsibility here for Google. Google has become in effect the only way for small businesses to get or not get exposure, and the way Google automates the process without authorization causes these fringe problems. Fringe for Google, lethal for the business owner. I think it is in Google's best interest to improve the process through which they deal with the problems, and maybe even help prosecute those who created them. Unfortunately, I also think they see these as collateral damage in a battle to create the most automated system that works 99.99999% of the time. On the other hand, it is a shame this biz owner had no computer expertise nor knew to take care of his online reputation and information. Just like people and Linkedin or github, businesses need to take responsibility. As in any transitions, some people will be left behind, and it seems there is not a lot we can do to avoid that.

VikingCoder 12y ago
The business owner needs to care what their online presence (including their Google Places) looks like. There is nothing Google or anyone else can do, if the business doesn't care. When the business does care, there are lots of options to clean up their online presence.
- benihana 12y ago
  Did you read the article? This isn't a case of the owner not caring; he didn't know that google maps was incorrectly reporting his hours. It took a phone call from a customer. And that's the problem - why would he ever think that people weren't coming to his restaurant because a map service messed up his hours? As is clear from this article, that was very low on his checklist of things that might be killing my business.
  - pmontra 12y ago
    Yes, and more than that: he didn't know what Google Map is. He is 74 and can be excused for that. Fast forward ourselves into our 70+: how many new things we won't know or care about then?
    - wutbrodo 12y ago
      I think everyone here is sympathetic to the idea that a 74 year-old shouldn't have to keep up with every new technology, but you seem to be forgetting the fact that he's running a business. Not knowing what Maps is is fine for a random consumer, but excusing a restaurant owner for not knowing about online map services is basically saying that he's no longer competent to run the restaurant.
      - VikingCoder 12y ago
        ...or knowing that he doesn't know about "that online stuff," and hiring someone who does know about it to help him manage it. It's a cost of business.

boobsbr 12y ago

One more reason why I don't trust POIs I find on Google Maps. I always try to find the actual business' page to check for phones and opening and closing hours.

post_break 12y ago
But it's a restaurant so you know they like to not list the phone number, hours, or menu (sarcasm).
- nnnnni 12y ago
  You've also got to love how the menu is always done in flash, so you most likely can't view it on a phone...
  - wutbrodo 12y ago
    Tangent: You can still view Flash on most phones sold, no? I think as long as you're using something other than Chrome (like FF).
    - nnnnni 12y ago
      There are ways to do it, but I'm pretty sure that it was dropped even for Android a year or so ago. Regardless, it's a pain to navigate flash restaurant menus. Just give me a plain list!
      - wutbrodo 12y ago
        No for sure, I wasn't disagreeing with the comment (hence the tangent disclaimer), just pointing out something that most people have a misconception about. I'm pretty sure that you can still install Flash on Android, just not in Chrome (or probably the stock browser, where it still exists); My phone has KitKat on it and I can use the Flash plugin as long as I switch to Firefox.
- swalkergibson 12y ago

j_m_b 12y ago

"The Serbian Crown closed its doors after nearly 40 years in the same location." Oh sure... blame it on Google Maps telling people you aren't open on Sat, Sun, Mon. I guess your regulars, who you've built up over 40 years, don't know when you're open unless they look at Google maps. Even the owner himself says "If you’re going there, it’s because you’ve planned to go there." I imagine his problem could be more accurately blamed on the decor (it looks hideous on the outside and that doesn't bode well for the inside) and the low quality of food being served (unless there are lion,kangaroo and bear farms in Virginia than that meat has probably been frozen). With that being said, Google maps is far from perfect. They really should have a way for business owners that they list to be able to update their store information, especially for small businesses. How hard would it be to implement a callback system that allowed an owner to make simple updates to hours of business or to delete false/inaccurate listings? I guess they're too busy trying to find places in their code base to replace 'if' statements with bayesian filtering.

vinceguidry 12y ago
From the article: Demonstrating causation between a bad Google Maps listing and Serbian Crown’s decline is going to be hard, though. For one thing, the restaurant’s Yelp listing—also a big factor in choosing a dinner reservation—is packed with abysmal, almost frightening, reviews. And there are any number of reasons a restaurant—even an old, established one—can fail, as Google’s lawyers pointed out an angry June 17 motion to dismiss the lawsuit. People don't read anymore.
- woodchuck64 12y ago
  Does the article actually thoroughly discredit its own title? People don't write anymore.
  - vinceguidry 12y ago
    The article didn't discredit anything. The title is "How Google Map Hackers Can Destroy a Business at Will" not "How Google Map Hackers Destroyed Serbian Crown".

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

drivingmenuts 12y ago

This is an example of one of the major problems of crowd-sourcing: trust. There is no way to verify that the integrity of the submitter, who could be giving wrong information due to malice, incompetence, or as a prank. There's entirely too much trust in crowdsourcing.

Vik1ng 12y ago
I think the real problem is this google has the half baked crowd-sourcing. Where you actually have a closed system and then let some people crowd source on top of it and have different ranks and people approving. It's the same reason Wikipedia is losing editors, because people don't want to wait for some admin to approve it. In OpenStreetMap as a community project which is know as such people are much more likely to report things (on the German website there is even a big button for that). It takes longer for a edit to be approved in google map maker than people get easy stuff fixed in OpenStreetMap in my area. If I check my notes RSS feed after 1 week then most of the errors are already fixed. Edit: +1 Cthulhu_ Google=private company
- spot 12y ago
  OSM is still so irrelevant that the spammers and scammers have not targeted it yet. Once they do, it will have the same problems Google does, but worse because they don't have the resources to fight back. It is much easier to fix mistakes than it is to fight an active adversary.
  - xorcist 12y ago
    Your prediction fails to account for the fact that Wikipedia can manage the problem, and they are probably the most important information source there is while still being by far the easiest to edit. What makes you think it is impossible for OSM to do it? (Also, a bit dishonest to call OSM irrelevant when it is the canonical data source for a number of famous application, including Apple, even if it's not directly applicable to the situation here.)
    - 12y ago

chdir 12y ago

If you are running a popular place, whether you like it or not, you'll end up on Google controlled listings. Unfortunately, there's little help for a non-tech savvy business owner to fix problems with listings or fake reviews or even removal of genuine reviews. This is an area where they need to be held accountable. If you are wielding so much power, you need to handle it responsibly and error in favor of business owners rather than community. Most web companies prefer the approach of 'act now, apologize later' or maybe never to garner users. I've had so many web services (including Facebook) create accounts using my email address without my approval (maybe because the other person used phone verification). Now if I want to claim back my email address on that web service, they put the burden on me to provide a photo ID. Using my email address is partially impersonating me because my contacts might have uploaded their address book and FB allows that willy nilly.

tedunangst 12y ago
If it's your email, can't you just send a password reset?
- chdir 12y ago
  With Facebook, no. My guess is that if you've verified with a phone number, they make it difficult to reset by an unverified email (they favor the fake user and assume that the email was entered incorrectly). Moreover, I don't want to take over someone's account if they've been ignorant about entering the email incorrectly. They still own the data. However I do report that I didn't create this account. Services like FB blacklist the email address in that case. As a result, I can't use that email in future without giving a photo ID (never gonna happen).
- BSousa 12y ago
  Not with facebook last time I tried. Had the same problem, someone used my email to create a facebook account and now I can't get it back without going through various loops that I honestly don't care about. I just put anything that is related to facebook to be automatically deleted and my friends know I hate FB and I'm not there, so if someone 'friends' them thinking it's me, I think only 2-3 people I know wouldn't suspect it.

Semaphor 12y ago

The yelp review paint a picture of 2010: Great food, great service 2011: Good to great food, horrible service 2012: Horrible food, horrible service I usually don't trust yelp, but the decline is way too visible here.

raverbashing 12y ago
People love to bash yelp, but it's merely a reflection of the fact that People Are Dicks Check the reviews, there's also how many reviews and friends the person has. The lower these two numbers are, the most likely the review is fake (either pro or against) Also check how balanced the review is. Most legitimate ones are fair, and won't go over the top either way And of course, there's always someone that's going to complain about a sushi restaurant serving raw fish.
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
What exactly is yelp telling you? I'm something of a foodie and am stunned at how inaccurate the reviews are for most restaurants. Most of the reviews seem to come from a minority "elite" users who are chronic whiners and come off as terribly immature. Its just incredible what people ding establishments for. "Fries came late, this place sucks! Zero stars!" Some people think the issue with yelp and google reviews is trust. Its not. Its entitlement and a lack of proper criteria. The types of people who gravitate towards these reviews and become frequent reviewers are often people with poor taste and a lack of understanding of what they are reviewing. They're not crowd-sourced Robger Eberts. They're your cranky local paper's film critic who thinks 'naughty language' is the most unforgivable sin. If anything, services like yelp have made me appreciate the art of criticism and a lot of my dining decisions are now done via professional critics with good reputations instead of the usual gang of misanthropes and weirdos who dominate yelp.
- Semaphor 12y ago
  This was the second time I really read through reviews on yelp. The first time I was reading reviews about a restaurant I love and reviewing it myself. And when I say I don't trust yelp, I meant the user base :)

troymc 12y ago

Aren't there large-scale services to whom a small business owner can pay an annual subscription fee, where the service will monitor the accuracy of their Google, Yelp, Open Street Map, Wikipedia, Yellowpages, etc. information? The article mentions some person on a retainer who does this on a shop-by-shop basis, but it seems to me that this is something that can be automated and scaled.

ceejayoz 12y ago
I believe http://www.reputation.com/ http://www.reputation.com/ does this.
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funkdobiest 12y ago
Here is a free one( up to 5 listings) that feeds Google https://mybusinesslistingmanager.com https://mybusinesslistingmanager.com
mierle 12y ago
GoDaddy's Get Found does this; http://getfound.com http://getfound.com. Disclaimer: I work at GoDaddy on Get Found.

will_brown 12y ago

It would seem to me these types of hacks are very risky in light of the recent lawsuits involving bogus Yelp reviews. Specifically, Yelp was forced by the courts to reveal the real identities behind bogus reviews, and further individuals have been held personally liable for defamation. Though the Google Map hacks may not fall under a cause of action for defamation (thought it may), certainly I could see rather large judgments under a theory of tortious interference with business contracts/business relationships. These suits permit not just damages for economic loss, but also punitive damages.

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- hughdbrown 12y ago
  How does the First Amendment apply to Yelp reviewers? Is Congress making laws that abridge the rights of free speech in Yelp reviews? On a separate point, I think the percentage of customers a corrupt business owner could defraud is pretty low. Happy customers may post reviews, but defrauded customers will go after a business like angry hornets. A small number of frauds will become a disproportionate number of negative reviews.
  - will_brown 12y ago
    With the comment deleted above, it is difficult to place the context of yours. However, the following is probably relevant/insightful either way: Judge William Petty wrote that the negative reviews in question were not protected by the First Amendment because "If the reviewer was never a customer of the business, then the review is not an opinion; instead, the review is based on a false statement of fact ... And 'there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact.'"

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nicolethenerd 12y ago

In case any of you have a business w/ a physical location, yext.com sells a service that lets you manage these details (business hours, location, phone #, etc) across several different sites (Bing, Mapquest, Yahoo, etc + ~50 others), rather than handling them all individually. (Disclaimer: my partner works there - but I don't get a commission or anything :-) Just seemed relevant to the discussion)

Gracana 12y ago
Can yext do anything to protect you from attacks like those mentioned in the linked article?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- eightofdiamonds 12y ago
  They can lock down the listing so that only you can edit them with their partner sites. But it wouldn't work in this case since they are not partnered with Google. We just had a presentation from them at my work a few weeks ago.
  - mcguire 12y ago
    Officially "taking ownership" of a record with Google doesn't prevent community edits?
- deleted 12y ago
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SquareWheel 12y ago
Why the heck can't I scroll down on the results page? It keeps resetting my position when I use the scroll bar.
eightofdiamonds 12y ago
Yext can't manage Google listings though which is important to note. No 3rd party is able to directly manage Google listings.

jokoon 12y ago

I always wondered about this, but now it's obvious: google doesn't make sure those business info are accurate, it might have a huge cost to verify those info, for example asking for some paperwork to check. openstreetmap, on the other hand, seems much more trustful on this, since it's moderated a little like wikipedia is. I guess if openstreetmap was more popular, you might start to see similar problems described in that article. I'm sure even governments would not want to give the data of businesses opening/closing for free.

dclowd9901 12y ago
As a business owner, it's your job to make sure those listings are accurate, just as it would be you would want to make sure the yellow pages had your right phone number. There's no excuse for technological illiteracy or ignorance, and if you don't want to bother to be in charge of your online presence, you had better hire someone for the job.
- Crisco 12y ago
  What if the owner has no idea that his business even has an online presence? I can see that being very common amongst older business owners, especially if they have never even used Google before.
  - maxerickson 12y ago
    I think if the gp had said "As a business owner, it's in your best interests...", there would be less to argue about (without really changing the meaning). I think it's likely that he had little interest in the online presence of his business, but he must also have missed opportunities to better manage it (I'm thinking of information from a chamber of commerce or similar, or just conversations with people).
- jokoon 12y ago
  > There's no excuse for technological illiteracy or ignorance I know the internet is much more popular since the last 10 years, but I don't think everyone is really up to it. There are still big opportunities to scam people who don't have the minimum of tech savyness: viruses, etc. The internet is still a jungle with not enough laws.

sirdogealot 12y ago

They were in business for 40 years... and Google maps just recently started incorrectly listing their hours. I highly doubt that the google maps error caused or even contributed to the downfall of their apparently well established business.

frankydp 12y ago

If you have ever used mapmaker, and attempted to update/modify POI and roads, then you will be aware of the strange and unvalidated process of accepting and denying changes to Gmaps. There are more than a couple bad actors that are Approved Google map moderators. I am not sure if their collective actions for denying and modifying changes are a net good or net positive. It has always seemed strange that someone from Washington state can deny a detailed and documented road/POI change in Florida. I really enjoy editing/contributing to Gmaps, but the seemingly random/poisonous moderation process in that ecosystem is a huge turn off. Sorry if this is a tad off topic.

freyfogle 12y ago
Out of curiosity, have you tried OpenStreetMap? You get the same enjoyment of editing without the "random/poisonous moderation process", plus the data you contribute is open, rather than private property.
- Crito 12y ago
  Do you know what OpenStreetMap has done to avoid the toxic editing community? Wikipedia also has a problem with a toxic community; are they doing something different?
  - Vik1ng 12y ago
    Not so much what OpenStreetMap has done, but simply due to the nature of the project one big difference is, that OSM maps what is on the ground. So there isn't going to be a discussion if that river is relevant or not, if there is a river you map it. Other things like opening hours here are usually also easy to verify, IF you do so. So it will be more if it belongs into the database or not, but even if it doesn't there is often no big harm if tags aren't misused. And then there are Quality assurance tools: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quality_assurance http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quality_assurance Right now most of them are more geared toward detecting accidental errors, but it is pretty safe to say that once OSM becomes more popular there will also be tools optimized to detect vandalism. I also feel like it's a lot easier to get in touch with the community, at least here in Germany: http://www.openstreetmap.de/community.html http://www.openstreetmap.de/community.html I actually still haven't found a simple German Wikipedia Forum where I could just discuss a page, which is something that really helps new users.

hnriot 12y ago

The world is a better place without a restaurant serving bear meat.

pests 12y ago
If you read the article you would see it no longer serves bear meat.
- trhway 12y ago
  it was still serving lion, horse, kangaroo... Good riddance. Time has changed and the owner just didn't notice it. He blames it on Google while his business simply fell out of fashion.

derekp7 12y ago

Would this type of hack fall under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act? If so, it seems like an easy case to prosecute (the person committing the act has a financial profit motive, the public would like to see genuine bad actors get punished, etc). Or does the CFAA not apply because this isn't a protected resources?

scintill76 12y ago
Maybe it could count as "knowingly and with intent to defraud, accesses a protected computer without authorization, or exceeds authorized access, and by means of such conduct furthers the intended fraud and obtains anything of value".[0] But they only bring out that kind of prosecutorial initiative and creativity, if you downloaded a bunch of academic articles after previously identifying yourself as a bit of a troublemaker (Aaron Swartz). Who cares about some old immigrant's restaurant? OK, enough cynicism for today.. [0] http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1030

csandreasen 12y ago

Several years ago my spouse and I took a vacation abroad and booked a tour with a local company. The guide was really shocked when I told him that I went with their company because they had negative reviews. All of the touring companies had fairly amateur web sites, but with the exception of this company, all of the Yelp reviews were glowing, 5-star, nothing-went-wrong-with-this-trip reviews. His company had fairly good reviews, with one or two one-star reviews from angry customers that cancelled at the last minute and didn't get their deposit back. I expect a few bad reviews - nobody runs their business in such a manner that every customer is satisfied 100% of the time. If I see nothing but outstanding reviews, I'm going to assume they're all fake.

steven777400 12y ago
Especially key is also what the bad reviews are for. Like in your case, you identify the bad reviews are unreasonable expectations. Bad reviews with claimed reasonable cause may be worth a little more pause. Also important is number of reviews. I'd rather have a solid 4/5 product with 100 reviews than a straight 5 star product reviewed only 3 times.
- soperj 12y ago
  And now I know when faking product reviews to throw a few bad ones in there ;)
- r00fus 12y ago
  Well, if there is a bad review that has a response from the company, that reflects well in my opinion, unless there are a large number of them. Not sure if it's possible for vendors on Yelp to reply to their customers in the forum, but I see this all the time on Amazon.