4 ms·

With help from Teamsters, LA Uber drivers try to organize

39 points by waterlesscloud 12y ago

wyager 12y ago
>DeWolf cited a recent mandate from Uber requiring all Uber Black drivers with cars older than 2010 to switch over to UberX within two weeks (they later switched it four), where they will make less money. God forbid Uber try to maintain a high quality service!
- cdcarter 12y ago
  Is a four year old black car really that massive of a quality difference than a two year old black car, such that it should be put into the same price category as Prius's (where the driver is able to pay less in gas and offers a significantly less impressive service?)
  - amorphid 12y ago
    I think the two vs four was referring to the number of weeks drivers had to switch car that built in or after 2010.
    - cdcarter 12y ago
      Yes, but a 2010 car in 2014 is four years old, and a 2012 car in 2014 is two years old.
jluxenberg 12y ago
>> Uber drivers are independent contractors, >> so they can't form a union, which is why >> they're trying to form an association Does this mean it's illegal for them to form a union? Why would it be? What prevents them from unionizing?
- zaroth 12y ago
  I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than this... but when a majority of employees vote to unionize, and the union is certified, the union then has sole authority to negotiate employment terms with the company. I think from that perspective, it makes sense why independent contractors, who are by definition negotiating directly with the company, can't unionized.
- cdcarter 12y ago
  No, there is just no legal recognition of a union (as is understood in the US) for freelance contractors. Contractors organize through professional associations, instead.
xivzgrev 12y ago
This is really interesting. Uber and Lyft are trying so hard to recruit drivers in the face of their rapid growth. A strike, or whatever the equivalent is in this "association", would really hurt them. It flies in the face of Uber's mantra of always available. Given the vulnerability, I expect it won't be too long until we see one, unless drivers' concerns are addressed. You could say with Uber's war chest they could wait out a strike, but again, it flies in the face of their long held core value prop - always on. It will create massive surge conditions. If I was Uber, I'd eat the difference between surge price and normal fare and starve the union out.
- HarryHirsch 12y ago
  If I was Uber, I'd eat the difference between surge price and normal fare and starve the union out. Let's not think about the children right now, let's think about the drivers instead. When you are between jobs it might easily be you behind the wheel. Think very carefully which of the two dogs in the fight you should support.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    People around here probably fancy themselves to be the dog that's going to be in charge of the next Uber, so they'd naturally root for Uber.
- w1ntermute 12y ago
  Kalanick would have to be an idiot (which he's not) to let them unionize. Uber has a ridiculous amount of funding, and I can't imagine any of their investors would oppose them taking advantage of it to starve any unions out. People will forget soon enough that Uber wasn't available for a while, but a union will be like an open wound that just won't go away. After all, if the drivers go to their competitors, then they'll just unionize there too. And once the situation has stabilized, Uber can just undercut their unionized competitors and put them out of business.
  - cdcarter 12y ago
    Well, an employer really doesn't get to choose whether or not employees can unionize. They just get to employ unfair and illegal labor practices without much retribution.
thrill 12y ago
It's interesting watching the maneuvering to strangle a promising idea while it's still in the cradle.
- firstOrder 12y ago
  What promising idea is that, making a business on the basis of ignoring the laws of the municipalities your business is in, or having the drivers, who were in business before Uber and will be in business after Uber, do all the work and wealth creation while some startup and its VCs and its VCs LP's parasitically suck up profits from all that labor?
  - wspride 12y ago
    The "laws of the municipalities" in most cases were bull shit regulatory capture created distorted market and offered terrible service for the consumers in favor of the old holders of capital (see: token systems)
forrestthewoods 12y ago
I think it sucks that Uber drivers aren't direct employees of Uber. Were they once upon a time? I forget. Anyhow, it's just a bullshit game for Uber to avoid regulations. It'd be much better for everyone involved if drivers could just be salary employees.
- adventured 12y ago
  What's the break-down on how many taxi drivers are employees vs independent contractors?
  - jassinpain 12y ago
    As far as I know almost zero taxi drivers actually work for the cab company. What they actually do is rent the cab license and car as contractors.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  it's just a bullshit game for Uber to avoid regulations That generally seems to be a critical part of their business strategy...
  - jjoonathan 12y ago
    Which is fine if you think the regulations are outdated. The fact that drivers have tracked feedback, pre-negotiated prices, and a dispatch system that isn't overwhelmed by surges effectively negates the market failures that the regulations were originally designed to fix. I suspect that the regulations were a net value-add for most of their existence, but now that the smartphone age has enabled a market solution it's time to reevaluate the necessity of the regulations.
- MarkPNeyer 12y ago
  > It'd be much better for everyone involved if drivers could just be salary employees. uber probably wouldn't exist if this were the case. the cost overhead of hiring someone would mean drivers would have less freedom - no moonlighting for lyft or sidecare - and rates would be higher. isn't it better to look at ways of changing the employer/employee dynamic instead of insisting that everything work that way?
Daishiman 12y ago
It seems only logical. It's evident that at some point it will be a race to the bottom between services with similar propositions, so labor will eventually get some cost cutting.
- adventured 12y ago
  With self-driving cars, it would seem likely in the next 20 years there will be extreme cost cutting on labor.
  - daledavies 12y ago
    That's something I'd never thought about before. Surely the whole taxi industry is doomed.
zacharycohn 12y ago
I can't help but think that all the drivers who are making trouble (in Seattle and now LA) are just ex-taxi drivers.
benihana 12y ago
Is it even possible to keep people from scabbing a service like Uber? There's no central place to go to work, so I can't imagine any kind of picket line situation. How will a union maintain any kind of power when they can't control who goes in and out of a work site?
- dsl 12y ago
  Unions historically employed violence (or fear of violence) to prevent scabs because of the close ties to organized crime. Failing that, there is no real way that the union can avoid scabs. (Edited to clarify. Yes I acknowledge employers can be evil too, I assumed that was obvious.)
  - yanowitz 12y ago
    Protecting picket lines is a strategy that goes back to the Chartist movement in England. The whole point of a picket line is to shut down production. Many early labor wars involved management hiring private armies that beat up and even shot strikers. Organized cribs involvement started during McCarthyism in particular (red scares more generally). When socialists (with a rank and file power perspective) were driven out, the vacuum left was filled by mobsters (in some cases).
  - ArtB 12y ago
    ...as did factory owners. Is there a name for the logical fallacy where one knowingly misrepresents true statements to suggests things that aren't true? (ie that only unions used violence or had criminal ties).
    - graeme 12y ago
      I teach the LSAT. This fallacy occurs all the time. It's "incomplete comparison". Giving information about only one half of a comparison, then stating or implying a conclusion based on that inadequate information. It really, really fools people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incomplete_comparison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incomplete_comparison
    - 12y ago
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
dkarapetyan 12y ago
Oh the irony. The heralds of the "sharing" economy are getting a dose of some shared negative sentiments. Then again maybe that's not the kind of sharing they meant.
jrockway 12y ago
> the system where passengers rate their drivers is unfair Why is that?

>DeWolf cited a recent mandate from Uber requiring all Uber Black drivers with cars older than 2010 to switch over to UberX within two weeks (they later switched it four), where they will make less money. God forbid Uber try to maintain a high quality service!

cdcarter 12y ago
Is a four year old black car really that massive of a quality difference than a two year old black car, such that it should be put into the same price category as Prius's (where the driver is able to pay less in gas and offers a significantly less impressive service?)
- amorphid 12y ago
  I think the two vs four was referring to the number of weeks drivers had to switch car that built in or after 2010.
  - cdcarter 12y ago
    Yes, but a 2010 car in 2014 is four years old, and a 2012 car in 2014 is two years old.

jluxenberg 12y ago

>> Uber drivers are independent contractors, >> so they can't form a union, which is why >> they're trying to form an association Does this mean it's illegal for them to form a union? Why would it be? What prevents them from unionizing?

zaroth 12y ago
I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than this... but when a majority of employees vote to unionize, and the union is certified, the union then has sole authority to negotiate employment terms with the company. I think from that perspective, it makes sense why independent contractors, who are by definition negotiating directly with the company, can't unionized.
cdcarter 12y ago
No, there is just no legal recognition of a union (as is understood in the US) for freelance contractors. Contractors organize through professional associations, instead.

xivzgrev 12y ago

This is really interesting. Uber and Lyft are trying so hard to recruit drivers in the face of their rapid growth. A strike, or whatever the equivalent is in this "association", would really hurt them. It flies in the face of Uber's mantra of always available. Given the vulnerability, I expect it won't be too long until we see one, unless drivers' concerns are addressed. You could say with Uber's war chest they could wait out a strike, but again, it flies in the face of their long held core value prop - always on. It will create massive surge conditions. If I was Uber, I'd eat the difference between surge price and normal fare and starve the union out.

HarryHirsch 12y ago
If I was Uber, I'd eat the difference between surge price and normal fare and starve the union out. Let's not think about the children right now, let's think about the drivers instead. When you are between jobs it might easily be you behind the wheel. Think very carefully which of the two dogs in the fight you should support.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  People around here probably fancy themselves to be the dog that's going to be in charge of the next Uber, so they'd naturally root for Uber.
w1ntermute 12y ago
Kalanick would have to be an idiot (which he's not) to let them unionize. Uber has a ridiculous amount of funding, and I can't imagine any of their investors would oppose them taking advantage of it to starve any unions out. People will forget soon enough that Uber wasn't available for a while, but a union will be like an open wound that just won't go away. After all, if the drivers go to their competitors, then they'll just unionize there too. And once the situation has stabilized, Uber can just undercut their unionized competitors and put them out of business.
- cdcarter 12y ago
  Well, an employer really doesn't get to choose whether or not employees can unionize. They just get to employ unfair and illegal labor practices without much retribution.

thrill 12y ago

It's interesting watching the maneuvering to strangle a promising idea while it's still in the cradle.

firstOrder 12y ago
What promising idea is that, making a business on the basis of ignoring the laws of the municipalities your business is in, or having the drivers, who were in business before Uber and will be in business after Uber, do all the work and wealth creation while some startup and its VCs and its VCs LP's parasitically suck up profits from all that labor?
- wspride 12y ago
  The "laws of the municipalities" in most cases were bull shit regulatory capture created distorted market and offered terrible service for the consumers in favor of the old holders of capital (see: token systems)

forrestthewoods 12y ago

I think it sucks that Uber drivers aren't direct employees of Uber. Were they once upon a time? I forget. Anyhow, it's just a bullshit game for Uber to avoid regulations. It'd be much better for everyone involved if drivers could just be salary employees.

adventured 12y ago
What's the break-down on how many taxi drivers are employees vs independent contractors?
- jassinpain 12y ago
  As far as I know almost zero taxi drivers actually work for the cab company. What they actually do is rent the cab license and car as contractors.
sliverstorm 12y ago
it's just a bullshit game for Uber to avoid regulations That generally seems to be a critical part of their business strategy...
- jjoonathan 12y ago
  Which is fine if you think the regulations are outdated. The fact that drivers have tracked feedback, pre-negotiated prices, and a dispatch system that isn't overwhelmed by surges effectively negates the market failures that the regulations were originally designed to fix. I suspect that the regulations were a net value-add for most of their existence, but now that the smartphone age has enabled a market solution it's time to reevaluate the necessity of the regulations.
MarkPNeyer 12y ago
> It'd be much better for everyone involved if drivers could just be salary employees. uber probably wouldn't exist if this were the case. the cost overhead of hiring someone would mean drivers would have less freedom - no moonlighting for lyft or sidecare - and rates would be higher. isn't it better to look at ways of changing the employer/employee dynamic instead of insisting that everything work that way?

Daishiman 12y ago

It seems only logical. It's evident that at some point it will be a race to the bottom between services with similar propositions, so labor will eventually get some cost cutting.

adventured 12y ago
With self-driving cars, it would seem likely in the next 20 years there will be extreme cost cutting on labor.
- daledavies 12y ago
  That's something I'd never thought about before. Surely the whole taxi industry is doomed.

zacharycohn 12y ago

I can't help but think that all the drivers who are making trouble (in Seattle and now LA) are just ex-taxi drivers.

benihana 12y ago

Is it even possible to keep people from scabbing a service like Uber? There's no central place to go to work, so I can't imagine any kind of picket line situation. How will a union maintain any kind of power when they can't control who goes in and out of a work site?

dsl 12y ago
Unions historically employed violence (or fear of violence) to prevent scabs because of the close ties to organized crime. Failing that, there is no real way that the union can avoid scabs. (Edited to clarify. Yes I acknowledge employers can be evil too, I assumed that was obvious.)
- yanowitz 12y ago
  Protecting picket lines is a strategy that goes back to the Chartist movement in England. The whole point of a picket line is to shut down production. Many early labor wars involved management hiring private armies that beat up and even shot strikers. Organized cribs involvement started during McCarthyism in particular (red scares more generally). When socialists (with a rank and file power perspective) were driven out, the vacuum left was filled by mobsters (in some cases).
- ArtB 12y ago
  ...as did factory owners. Is there a name for the logical fallacy where one knowingly misrepresents true statements to suggests things that aren't true? (ie that only unions used violence or had criminal ties).
  - graeme 12y ago
    I teach the LSAT. This fallacy occurs all the time. It's "incomplete comparison". Giving information about only one half of a comparison, then stating or implying a conclusion based on that inadequate information. It really, really fools people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incomplete_comparison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incomplete_comparison
  - 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

dkarapetyan 12y ago

Oh the irony. The heralds of the "sharing" economy are getting a dose of some shared negative sentiments. Then again maybe that's not the kind of sharing they meant.

jrockway 12y ago

> the system where passengers rate their drivers is unfair Why is that?