19 ms·

Penny Arcade – Surface Pro 3 update

517 points by vxNsr 12y ago

ajessup 12y ago
OP, surprised that MS (as with any large company) didn't require you to sign an NDA to not discuss unannounced features during development. Bold (and encouraging) move on their part if they didn't.
- itafroma 12y ago
  > OP, surprised that MS (as with any large company) didn't require you to sign an NDA to not discuss unannounced features during development Mike Krahulik has been a fan of Surface Pro from the beginning,[1] has been very vocal about what he likes and dislikes, and has a very large audience.[2] It seems likely they were counting on him blogging his experiences as soon as possible after his last Surface Pro post,[3] which had some fairly negative points that made using the new Surface Pro difficult (if not impossible) for him. [1]: http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2013/02/22/the-ms-surface-pro http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2013/02/22/the-ms-surf... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade [3]: http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/05/23/surface-pro-3 http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/05/23/surface-pro...
  - Einstalbert 12y ago
    Microsoft keeping Gabe happy with the surface line is probably one of their top 5 PR priorities for the devices. I am not surprised by this post in the least, but I am glad that Gabe is going to get something he can use for his work.
    - mahyarm 12y ago
      Gabe being in Seattle also makes it pretty easy to interact with him.
  - jeffcox 12y ago
    Gabe is just the character that initially represented Mike Krahulik, the artist of PA and the person writing those posts.
    - itafroma 12y ago
      Whoops: fixed, thanks.
- morsch 12y ago
  They'd have to be insane. You can't pay for advertisements like these. Despite the mixed feelings Gabe has had with Surface 3. Just look at this HN thread; every post Gabe made about the Surface caused similar comments.
- vacri 12y ago
  In his case, he'd already generated bad press, so letting him comment to the positive on changes they're working on benefits them.
  - ajessup 12y ago
    Gabe's posts have had strong impact on a relatively small audience. It's hard to realistically imagine it's had a significant impact on Surface sales one way or the other. On the other hand when he blogs about the future direction that they are taking then this is all data that competitors will gobble up, and in many cases can bring to market ahead of MS. Quite possibly the PR gain here is offset by the future opportunity cost by giving competitors a heads up on future strategy.
    - vacri 12y ago
      "the device is done and shipping in like a week" Those competitors are probably going to have to put in a bit of overtime then :) The other stuff he talks about isn't new either - pressure curves have been around forever (I have a very old tablet thinkpad with a pressure curve) and the tablet photoshop he played with has already been displayed at a show.
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  They're using him as a PR sheep. Of course they didn't require an NDA.
stcredzero 12y ago
It’s very hard to take something like how the device “feels” to draw on and convert that into something engineers can use. I ended up describing it in terms of speaking. I said drawing on the Pro 2 was like having a conversation with someone. With the Surface Pro 3 I feel like I need to either whisper or yell to have the same conversation. I had to press very lightly or very hard, and it changes the way I draw. I was also able to show them some of the lag I was noticing. They could all see me draw a line and watch it pop in a split second later. There is a reason why Wacom dominated its niche for so long, even in the face of inexpensive asian knock-offs. (1) They had this stuff right. (2) Hackers who are perceptive enough that they don't underestimate the difficulty of getting this stuff right are a very small minority.
- colechristensen 12y ago
  It seems like Microsoft could really benefit from having conversations (or hiring) experts in the (ahem) "UI" design of aircraft. The ergonomics, feedback and force required for action on controls, button placement.... all the sorts of things a pilot has to do to interact with the machine are very well studied and, more importantly, quantified by excellent engineers. That engineering expertise could surely be translated to the physical interface of a tablet in a way that is much less possible or relevant for a keyboard and mouse interface.
- steele 12y ago
  In this context, who are the hackers? "asian knock-offs" seems odd in this context. Wacom is a Japanese company. Also, some inexpensive competitors like the monoprice-sold UC-Logic tablets are generally well-received despite having to shove a battery into the pen to avoid wacom's patented inductive coupling.
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    In this context, who are the hackers? Programmers who tell themselves, "A stylus? Implementing that would be a piece of cake!" (I have to admit I'm guilty of this exact thing myself.) "asian knock-offs" seems odd in this context. Wacom is a Japanese company. And I'm of Korean extraction. From what I've seen, the majority of the knock-offs happen to be from asia. Those are the facts as I understand them. Your "oddness" seems to be supposition.
GodEater 12y ago
It's great to read that Gabe has had such a positive experience with a Microsoft product team - but it seems pretty obvious to me that it's because he's a somebody. His posts on penny-arcade reach an enormous audience, and so of course they're going to do their damn best to make sure he sings the product's praises. My experience is very different. I've been working for an enormous organisation for the last 4 years, and we're a tier 1 client of Microsoft's. I've had numerous occasions where I've tried to get anyone on the product team for my specialisation at Microsoft, that my company literally drops millions of pounds on to pay any attention to our requirements. And every time I've had that conversation, with the same requirements, it's like this is the first time they've heard it. They make great promises that they'll go away and think about it, and then nothing happens. And that's because I'm a nobody. I don't have a blog with a massive audience, and so they really don't give a sh!t.
- sz4kerto 12y ago
  Interesting. In the enterprise I worked back then we had a problem that was not MS's fault rather the result of a specific implementation detail related to how we managed software on Windows-based PCs -- Microsoft basically extended the .Net framework because we needed it. (Extended means adding a few methods and events here and there, but they definitely listened -- this was many years ago, by the way.)
- _random_ 12y ago
  I've heard that one company screwed up the basic fundamental component of their mobile phone once - the antenna. It was basically short-circuiting when you were holding it during the call. Their answer to consumers? "You are holding it wrong".
- smacktoward 12y ago
  While I don't disagree, it's also potentially due to Microsoft being a gigantic corporation with dozens of internal fiefdoms, which can each have wildly varying cultures. It's possible that the people working on consumer tech (or specifically on Surface) are open to user feedback where the people working on enterprise products just aren't. (Not that I'd say that's acceptable if it's the case, just saying it wouldn't surprise me -- especially given how terrible at these things enterprise-focused people at big companies are in general. Listening to end users and then rapidly responding to their needs is just not part of their culture.)
huhtenberg 12y ago
Gotta really give it to Microsoft. The transformation of the company under Nadella's leadership is really impressive. They really stepped up their game. They finally got someone on the PR team that actually knows what they are doing.
- danudey 12y ago
  It's starting to feel as though the philosophy in Microsoft is less about 'Windows everywhere', but more about relevance. Product teams are created for various niches (e.g. Surface, Azure, etc.) but those teams now have a large degree of autonomy in pursuing their goals. As an example, the Office team's goals aren't to prop up Windows as a platform by providing a sufficient but substandard product on other platforms, but rather to make a great product; as a result, Office 365 for iPad. The Surface team isn't about making a platform to foist Windows 8 onto people or pressure tablet makers, it's about making a great personal tablet/laptop frankenstein. Likewise, Azure is (reportedly) a great backend for apps on all kinds of platforms, especially on iOS, rather than a 'competitive advantage' to make sure that Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 work great with each other and only with each other. I really feel as though this is the right direction for them, and that it's producing some really great results so far.
  - smacktoward 12y ago
    It's like they finally got around to reading Dave Winer's post from 13 years ago (!) on the idea of the "strategy tax" (http://scripting.com/davenet/2001/04/30/strategyTax.html http://scripting.com/davenet/2001/04/30/strategyTax.html): Sometimes products developed inside a company such as Microsoft have to accept constraints that go against competitiveness, or might displease users, in order to further the cause of another product. I recognized the concept but had never heard the term. An example. Consider a company that develops both a Web browser and a word processor. The product team for the browser might get lots of input from users saying "We'd like a better editor in the browser." It would be natural to give the users what they want. So they put the feature in their project plan, but when it comes up for review, the CEO shoots them down. "They should use the word processor," he says.
- 12y ago
sergiotapia 12y ago
>After I was done they told me they were going to take all the notes they had gathered and go to work on fixing the issues I had shown them. Later >To see them come back to me with fixes for my problems was really amazing. They are putting time and effort into making sure the Surface Pro 3 does what artists want it to do. Well played to the MS Surface team, I hope these fixes make it to production and stay there on the Surface 4/Surface 5. Where do you recommend I buy a Surface 3? I can buy online but is it better to get it from a brick and mortar shop?
- jamesbritt 12y ago
  I hope these fixes make it to production and stay there on the Surface 4/Surface 5. The sooner the better. I'm looking at getting a Surface 3 when the beefier CPUs are available, and would love to get one that fixes the issues describe by the previous PA.
- rasz_pl 12y ago
  More like well player PR team, they failed to fix every single issue. They couldnt even let him have the home button fix, something that sounds like a simple script I could write in AutoHotkey in two minutes tops. Surface team looks like a committee full of control freaks. cant give users control over home button, cant give users control over pressure curves (they brought two HARDWIRED tablets instead of writing configuration tool?).
  - nightpool 12y ago
    Did you read the article? They're planning on distributing a pressure curve configuration tool.
    - gcanyon 12y ago
      "They're planning on distributing a pressure curve configuration tool," seems like a much stronger statement than the article's actual statement, "What they proved was that MS could release an app that let artists adjust the pressure curve to suit their style. They assured me this is something they want to do."
jychang 12y ago
Great to see Microsoft listening to issues with the Surface and attempting to fix them. Hopefully they can polish it up into a machine that can be competitive in the market.
- dublinben 12y ago
  It sounds like it's already competitive in the market of nerds who draw cartoons on their computers, and need to be mobile. The Wacom Cintiq is probably much better for serious drawing, though you give up the portability of a self-contained tablet computer.[1] I'm not sure the Surface will succeed in any markets other than that though. It just solve any common problems significantly better than the alternatives. [1] http://www.wacom.com/en/us/creative/cintiq-13-hd http://www.wacom.com/en/us/creative/cintiq-13-hd
  - dman 12y ago
    I think it has pretty good potetial in hospitals, education and insurance where ability to take notes is important. Especially the use case where you are expected to stand and jot down things on a tablet sized device.
    - dublinben 12y ago
      Those enterprises have already been well satisfied by the convertible tablets from Lenovo, Fujitsu, Panasonic, etc. for years. I don't think the Surface will make much headway into those fields, beyond the few people who are literally working in the field and not in offices.
      - dman 12y ago
        I think the surface form factor is much slimmer than the bulky things I see in the hospital. This might be to the convertible tablets what Ipad was to the tablets before it.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
programminggeek 12y ago
The one thing that nobody seems to appreciate when it comes to pushing forward towards retina displays is just how many more pixels, how much more memory, and how much slower everything is on the same hardware. Yet, anyone who has ever been a gamer knows that changing your resolution has a huge impact on your FPS. It is foolish to think that Microsoft can make the screen much higher resolution, have a similar chip, and not have serious performance problems in terms of responsiveness. I'm sure Microsoft can get a lot of this fixed and they will, but like the smartphone revolution, sometimes you have to wait for hardware to catch up with software or you have to write the software to take full advantage of the hardware.
- LordIllidan 12y ago
  Agreed, and it's not limited to Microsoft. The iPhone 4 and the iPad 3 both had 2x the resolution of their predecessors but barely managed to keep the same level of performance.
  - TulliusCicero 12y ago
    Correction: 2x in each dimension, so actually 4x the total resolution.
  - programminggeek 12y ago
    That's one reason Apple kept the iPad 2 around for so long. It still performs really well and for most users that makes a bigger difference than higher resolution.
- neltnerb 12y ago
  As someone who is not a gamer, I am curious -- why is it not the GPU that is the most critical when talking about the FPS and refresh rate for things like pen input? Is the issue that the CPU is "in the loop"? Is this a matter of the built in graphics on the Haswell chips not being quite good enough for this application, or is it actually the CPU? I mostly wonder because I've found the improvements to the GPU in the Haswell processors to be game changing. I can use Solidworks reasonably well on my core i5 laptop! The idea of doing that with integrated graphics on any other computer would have been laughable. Will a faster CPU really improve this (i7 vs i5)? Or is it a matter of getting a higher end GPU attached to the same CPU (i3 with more powerful integrated GPU)?
imaginenore 12y ago
Microsoft demoed 1ms touchscreen lag in 2012. Most modern touchscreens still have 100ms lag. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4
- wingerlang 12y ago
  I was under the impression that that setup was something including a camera or something, and not an actual touchscreen.
  - i_am_ralpht 12y ago
    Yeah, though maybe you could do it with FTIR instead of capacitive, so you wouldn't need external cameras.
- rasz_pl 12y ago
  This lag is in the software stack (mostly in UI graphics). Not in hardware. Remember Androids ~>200ms sound lag?
  - imaginenore 12y ago
    Definitely not. Most of mobile software strives to run at 60fps. That's just 16.7ms.
    - rasz_pl 12y ago
      display animation at 60fps and react to a hardware input through layers and layers of software abstraction are two different things. Run of the mill 3M controller has 5ms latency http://datasheet.octopart.com/87-5961-211-3M-datasheet-21189709.pdf http://datasheet.octopart.com/87-5961-211-3M-datasheet-21189... 5 year old Fujitsu FMA1127 had 10ms. http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/MICRO/fme/tsc/FMA1127_Data_Sheet_FINAL_021209.pdf http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/MICRO/fme/tsc/FMA1127_Data_... Interrupt latency is measured in nano seconds.
      - 12y ago
agrias 12y ago
No one should be surprised Microsoft is trying to do their best to improve the Surface and converse with customers. They are great at requirements gathering. However all of this is their job and not solely out of good will. As a huge company that makes grand promises, they are expected to deliver a product that works for their customers. Would you expect any less? As customers we should care about the best products that help us achieve our end goal. If you absolutely have to give your 'loyalty' to a company, your 'loyalty' should be given (in my opinion) to the company that is predictable, consistent, and reliable.
TwistedWeasel 12y ago
It's admirable that MS is responding to criticism of their device and working for a solution. However, all the issues he experienced seem like they would be quite obvious to anyone testing the device usage for any kind of drawing application (which, for a device with a stylus seems like a common enough use case to be testing), perhaps Microsoft needs to spend more time and effort on their QA process for the next round of the Surface instead of playing catch up after release.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  all the issues he experienced seem like they would be quite obvious It's the classic QA paradox. The typical hacker world view doesn't prioritize such feel issues enough. Even in today's UX focused world, stylus specific issues aren't widely understood. Combine the dynamics of the Asch conformity experiment, and it makes perfect sense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnT2FcuZaYI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnT2FcuZaYI
  - icebraining 12y ago
    The typical hacker shouldn't be testing this device, then. I'm sure Microsoft has someone with the skills on their teams.
    - stcredzero 12y ago
      Yes, but did the management of the team realize the above, and did that manager make sure the team would work to produce good results in this area?
    - MaulingMonkey 12y ago
      > The typical hacker shouldn't be testing this device, then. Like, say, Gabe? :)
- devindotcom 12y ago
  Yeah, I'm baffled as to how the button placement made it past any kind of initial hands-on testing. It's hard to imagine a person using the pen on the screen for ten or fifteen minutes not encountering that problem.
ebbv 12y ago
So if you're a famous millionaire the Surface Pro 3 is the device for you, and Microsoft will make sure to fix all your problems with it. Hooray?
- steele 12y ago
  It is probably a stretch to call Mike Krahulik a famous millionaire. Microsoft used his art in their recent ad campaigns, which itself was a response to a prior unsolicited positive writeup on their product. So it is perfectly reasonable that they get his feedback (albeit far too late). Not all the problems were fixed, and I suspect some of the problems can't really be fixed given the hardware that is being shipped. To some degree this is damage control on the part of Microsoft, because on his initial impressions with SP3, Krahulik was clear that he could not recommend this to illustrators with a similar workflow -- most of which are not famous millionaires.
  - ebbv 12y ago
    How is it a stretch? He's a millionaire, there's no denying that. Sure mainstream people might not know who he is but in tech circles literally everyone does. So how is he not famous? I'd challenge you to find a more high profile person using Surface 3 and giving their public thoughts on it. So, my comment stands; if you are a famous millionaire then it's the product for you apparently, because Microsoft will actually fix your complaints. Otherwise, good luck.
    - steele 12y ago
      He is well-known in gaming circles moreso than tech circles (there is some overlap of course), and I can't confirm or deny he is a millionaire; frankly I have no idea. Famous has an imprecise definition; but as you conceded, "mainstream people" might not know who he is. This is why I consider it a stretch to call him a famous millionaire; I'd hesitate to use the same label used for Cliff Bleszinski or Paul Graham. Krahulk is influential in specific areas, but famous millionaire as the frame seems like a personal issue you're projecting. And regarding your challenge to find a more high profile person using the SP3 -- it is not released yet. The only people giving public thoughts on it are tech reviewers and Microsoft employees. In that regard, Microsoft used Krahulik's works on their website, so he may very well have augmented his millionaire's gold coin swimming pool with Microsoft money. Despite this, Krahulik still plainly voiced criticisms of the SP3 product, and Microsoft's surface team addressed this feedback in positive way. Of course, they want to leverage his influence. The impacted users would all theoretically benefit. I doubt that the result will be that he alone is getting a Krahulik hotpatch for personal use. As a developer working with vendor software, I too get prerelease access and are offered an avenue to submit problems I find to the vendor. The primary differences here are that I am strongly discouraged by the vendor to share my experiences with prerelease software. Lastly, Microsoft showed him that they can address somethings, but he was clear that issues remain. By contrast, the product team didn't respond with a suggestion to "just avoid holding it in that way".
richardlblair 12y ago
When MS is cornered (when they are losing in one area or another), and they are determined to win the competition should be scared. They are very good at committing to a project, and being in it for the long haul.
- mikestew 12y ago
  > They are very good at committing to a project, and being in it for the long haul. How so? I can think of several projects (especially hardware) that they abandoned after the first version. Granted, they gave the Zune a fair shake (though I don't think the iPod had much to be scared of). SPOT, too, considering that smart phones were starting to get useful about a year after SPOT's release. But as a counter example, I know of one unreleased hardware product they're working on right now that stands little chance of going beyond V1 due to (without inappropriately saying too much) a lack of commitment on MSFT's part. Could be that in this case they're not "determined to win", but I'm not in a position to know how determined they are.
  - baggachipz 12y ago
    Xbox comes to mind....
  - rlu 12y ago
    There are plenty of examples of Microsoft releasing a product which initially had little uptake but that eventually, after several releases, did well. Even big ones like Windows, Office, and SQL Server are examples of this. As for unreleased products: I think that is an orthogonal discussion.
  - richardlblair 12y ago
    Excel immediately comes to mind.
- PhantomGremlin 12y ago
  > They are very good at committing to a project, and being in it for the long haul. Nobody has yet mentioned Microsoft PlaysForSure. Those clowns really screwed the pooch on that one. They got their "partners" to commit to a form of DRM that the Zune (brown bar of turd) didn't support and that Microsoft then abandoned. How's the "long haul" working out for that particular fiasco? Sorry if this sounds like a rant (which it is). But I don't understand how Microsoft's numerous mistakes keep getting erased into the mists of time. This wasn't something that happened eons ago. PlaysForSure was introduced a mere ten years ago. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure
milhous 12y ago
What Microsoft should do is bring more artistic people into the Surface team, perhaps engineers with artistic abilities, and by doing exactly what they did for Gabe: study how artists work. The end result is a much better product without the need for a post-mortem scramble.
josefresco 12y ago
Seems like a small niche to be focusing on. I understand the PR angle (it's a home run for the PR team) but I don't think catering to artists who draw digitally is going to make or break the tablet. Where's the feel good story about the coder, the gamer, or the office junkie? Each of which makes up a considerably larger slice of the premium laptop/tablet marketplace.
- bgilroy26 12y ago
  The coder, the gamer, and the office junkie are the traditional Microsoft audience from the 90s + 2000s (maybe in reverse order). Apple had the artist audience even back in the 2000s, macintoshes were really niche-y then Seeing Apple's huge success in the late 2000s, Microsoft's grand marketing strategy since has been to try and re approach a young hip, artistic audience while not losing their traditional base. It's a huge shift and it won't be easy, since managers who buy for their offices want a low-rent, predictable product and their feathers are easily ruffled.
- adrianhoward 12y ago
  I dunno. Not make or break maybe. Be a potentially big market - hella yeah. The majority of design-ish people I know, including myself, would kill for a decent tablet drawing environment. Folk are already laying out for specialist devices like http://www.wacom.com/en/gb/creative/cintiq-24-hd-touch http://www.wacom.com/en/gb/creative/cintiq-24-hd-touch. My iPad is cute and useful for many things. I do very rough sketch stuff on it. For professional deign work it's pretty much useless. As somebody who's been buying Apple kit since before Jobs return the surface is the first time I've ever been tempted by Windows hardware. I know many folk who walk around with a Macbook + iPad + wacom tablet. I can see a lot of those folk switching if the Surface 3 worked well. I know lots of long-term Apple folk who were really tempted by the Surface 2. The office junkies, coders and games have alternatives. Currently there is almost nothing that does what the Surface 2/3 do, on the design side, in a single device. (I also imagine that the issues of stylus sensitivity & lag will apply to other interaction models to. Getting those things to feel "natural" is non-trivial. Pleasing the design folk will probably make it better for other peeps too.)
  - 12y ago
krschultz 12y ago
"You hear a lot about MS being this massive company that doesn’t listen but that’s really not fair in this case." Every large company is made up of thousands of individual people, many of which really care about making a good product and making customers happy. The whole question in managing a big company is how to get out of the way of that natural process, while still coordinating all the disparate groups so that the final product works.
- seanewest 12y ago
  What natural process?
- Tloewald 12y ago
  Actually MS has always listened. The problem has been (a) whom they listened to (the user has usually not been their customer) and (b) lack of "taste". MS Office is, for good and ill, exactly what you get when you give users what they ask for and have no taste.
  - balls187 12y ago
    Office 2013, specifically Excel and Word are fantastic.
    - rthomas6 12y ago
      Except for my use case, which is when you have a 1,200 page document with hundreds of tables, lists, and pictures. The thing grinds to a halt and has all sorts of problems. Yes, I know that MS Word is not the best choice for documents that big, but it's not up to me.
      - nightpool 12y ago
        Honest question, why can't you split the document and work on individual chapters?
      - tallanvor 12y ago
Aissen 12y ago
> I could see some of them shaking their heads and looking at each other. They were very obviously bothered that they had not seen this before. To me this looks like engineers that had foreseen the problem but were promptly ignored by UX people. Or maybe the other way around.
- saidajigumi 12y ago
  IMO, this is a great example of why show me don't tell me is vital in product creation. Here, the folks empowered to make the change saw the problem with their own eyes. They may indeed have heard or speculated about this issue previously. But there's a fundamental difference between someone saying something, filtered through language, organizational priorities, etc. and making that realization on your own. Related, this is a part of why good data viz is so powerful: it allows others to quickly and independently reach the same associations and conclusions. A real-world example: a data viz of game beta test user data shows player deaths in an area with no enemies. Curious. Linking over to video from an affected player just before the death reveals a level design error: a tunnel wall wasn't made solid. This allowed players to "fall out" of the level, causing the game to kill them. The development team relayed that before they had these tools, there would often be a back-and-forth with the level designers ("no, that can't be right!"). But now they'd just call them over, show them, and the level designer would get a bit pale and run back to their desk ("brb, gotta fix that NOW!").
  - drmarianus 12y ago
    While I completely agree with your point that there are things that are better shown then described, it doesn't seem that difficult to say, "The home button is positioned such that it is too easy to accidentally hit it."
    - mitchell209 12y ago
      Plus all one would have to do is actually use the pen for drawing. It doesn't take an artist actually using it to understand how that's a problem.
steele 12y ago
Surface Pro is very interesting from a product management perspective. Surface Pro 1 satisfied this niche, and Surface Pro 2 improved upon the first model significantly. Surface Pro 3 addresses many of the form factor concessions of the previous model (aspect ratio, thickness) which would make it theoretically more palatable to the mainstream use cases -- however, the N-Trig digitizer and button placement hardware decisions makes this less appealing to that aforementioned niche. BUT, you don't have to update. People that found great use in SP1+2, have very little incentive to upgrade for several reasons. Short cycles and price aside, the dilemma is now whether this niche can even commit to buying or recommend a SP2 or Surface Pro accessories even prices drop because SP3 is a clear signal of a significant form factor change. The frankly necessary blade accessories are now fragmented between form factors and the older form will not likely be supported going forward.
i_am_ralpht 12y ago
Interesting that the Surface Pro 2 did so much better in terms of "feel" and "lag". I wonder if the switch to the nTrig panel is behind the regression (I have an old HP TX2 with an nTrig panel; it was always terrible, but maybe they've improved since then...).
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
listic 12y ago
And I was going to use a Surface Pro tablet with Ubuntu Linux. If even Microsoft cannot make the device work right the first time around, even while apparently trying hard, I wonder how bad will the situation be on Linux. Still going to try; maybe later, when touch support on Ubuntu will be more ready and Surface Pro's will drop in price on eBay (I'm thinking of going with 256MB+ Surface Pro 2, unless they will make a newer generation of smaller tablets)
wfunction 12y ago
I hope he's getting paid for his time. MS should really be hiring him.
- nacs 12y ago
  He probably gets paid in the form of free Surface tablets and accessories.
pistle 12y ago
So when Apple lets people test out a new language, and the author notes important, but not universally demanded features, the tone is "It's amazing how awesome Apple is. Can't wait to see how it works out." When MS does something not wholly different, there's a bunch of "HarrrrUMPH! They should have got this fixed already. It's such an obviously easy thing. If they were half the company or any open source community was, they would try to create something like a programming language!!" Those contentious bones.
- shinratdr 12y ago
  Those situations are so different from each other I'm honestly amazed you wrote it, looked at it, and still thought it was a smart move to play that card.
AdmiralAsshat 12y ago
If memory serves, he was sent a Surface Pro 2 by Microsoft. And a Surface Pro 3. I don't recall if he was given the original Pro or if he bought that one himself. Either way, I would view his endorsement and any other interaction with Microsoft with a shaker of salt; this is not at all dissimilar from the multitude of celebrities whom Samsung sends the latest Galaxy phone in a swag bag in order to get a "I wasn't paid off, I just really like it!" endorsement. His celebrity status commands him a certain amount of influence for whatever judgment he proclaims on the Surface (note, for instance, how every post he makes about it ends up on the front page of HN). I can guarantee if the same points were raised by a normal person who paid for the thing on their tumblr blog, there would not be a team of Microsoft engineers rushing to fix them.
kyoji 12y ago
Theres so much vitriol toward Microsoft in this thread regarding them "using" Krahulik as a PR pawn in their nefarious marketing schemes. He has written extensively about his experience using the Surface as a tool for professional illustration work (and for recreation) in the past; his thoughts on the Surface Pro 3 are not his first rodeo. As someone who has been looking to buy a Surface for illustration work, it's so encouraging to see Microsoft even engaging with Krahulik, since it indicates to me that 'Artist' is a group of people they are actively pursuing, and willing to cater their device toward. He is an accomplished artist, and was a good pick to get feedback on this particular use of the device. It is also great PR and goodwill for Microsoft, but Krahulik's concerns seemed very genuine, and the fixes to them will benefit everyone like me who are looking to use their Surface for the same purpose.
BigChiefSmokem 12y ago
Why don't they just take off the Windows button? Can't you just swipe in from the right side of the screen to see the on-screen version? There's a Windows button in the task bar as well.
- kevingadd 12y ago
  It's more or less like the home button on an iPhone or iPad. Gestures are good, but there are scenarios where you can't easily use them or a novice user won't know about them. The Start button doesn't always show up in Desktop scenarios. Also, I think you can use it to wake a device from sleep?
hyp0 12y ago
Microsoft bringing protoypes to the PA offices seems about as expected as this Dave Barry line: giant talking broccoli stalks will come around and mow your lawn, for free Touchscreen latency is difficult, especially with increasing resolution. But if they managed it acceptably for the SP 2, it must be possible, I guess.
jtuente 12y ago
TBH, as soon as I saw the change from a Wacom digitizer to N-Trig's I cringed. I don't know what differences there are between the technologies they each use, but Wacom's is definitely more responsive on the whole. I like that they aren't using a 16:9 aspect ratio for the screen, but the switch away from Wacom kept me from making the Surface an automatic purchase.
- jodrellblank 12y ago
  Did you see http://surfaceproartist.com/blog/2014/5/27/microsoft-addresses-n-trig-concerns-in-reddit-response http://surfaceproartist.com/blog/2014/5/27/microsoft-address... ?
throwawaykf05 12y ago
Some people are wondering (here and on the previous post) how this problem could have escaped usability testing. My guess is, Gabe seems to have a somewhat unusual grip, so it's more than plausible nobody anticipated this problem. I am not a professional artist, but I've been drawing for more than two decades now. I also have an original Surface Pro because I really wanted to get my hands on a Wacom that could do more than just draw. I've churned out tons of sketches on it using Sketchbook Express. When his first review of the Pro 3 came out, I could not understand why he had problems with the home button. When I draw, my palm tends to rest on the lower right corner of the screen. This is also how I've seen most other sketchers draw. I could not position myself such that I'd hit where the home button on the Pro 3 is. However, I've also seen enough people write with really (to me) weird grips. I imagine that it extends to drawing as well.
megablast 12y ago
This is going to be great SP4 is going to work great for Gabe. But surely these changes were made for a reason?
gcb0 12y ago
if anything, this is a testament to why closed source software is dead. Spend $1000+ on a device. it doesn't do what you want? get world famous and complain. have a team of engineers fix it for you. ...right. Almost everything i hated on my first android phone i fixed it myself or lazily waited for someone else to fix it... yeah, it took a year or so to have it how i liked. My new phone, if i install any custom ROM i will lose some of the new hardware functionality, so i can't. i have to wait for the company to fix the annoyances i have, which i am pretty sure will be never. sadly i don't have the time to make the new hardware work because that is a retarded huge amount of time you need to waste.
zerny 12y ago
It's good to see tech companies like Microsoft and Apple trying to make the artists happy, not forgetting every human being has their own artistic side. The last sentence is very inspiring, though.
dharma1 12y ago
I'm kind of surprised they didn't run these type of tests BEFORE releasing surfae 3 pro
mukundmr 12y ago
Why would people want to use a Surface Pro3 as a drawing tablet? What is the target consumer for this device? The last time I played with the device, it was running regular Windows apps on a small screen and it was a nightmare getting the menus and buttons right. If applications have to be tailored for the Surface, how will they work on the desktop?
- freehunter 12y ago
  The Surface Pro 3 has a 12 inch screen compared to the Surface Pro 2's 10 inch screen and the Macbook Air's 11 inch screen, so the real estate is improved by quite a bit. It gets expensive to find a larger screen with a digitizer, and the guys from PA are on the road quite a bit so I'd imagine portability counts.
golergka 12y ago
> I could see some of them shaking their heads and looking at each other. They were very obviously bothered that they had not seen this before. Why I can't imagine Apple being in such a situation?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
thisjepisje 12y ago
Sounds to me like they just hadn´t thought about this use case deep enough. Good to see they´re doing something about it, and with some nice publicity at that.
laichzeit0 12y ago
It looks ugly as hell. I would never want to be seen using something like that.

517 points by vxNsr 12y ago

OP, surprised that MS (as with any large company) didn't require you to sign an NDA to not discuss unannounced features during development. Bold (and encouraging) move on their part if they didn't.

itafroma 12y ago
> OP, surprised that MS (as with any large company) didn't require you to sign an NDA to not discuss unannounced features during development Mike Krahulik has been a fan of Surface Pro from the beginning,[1] has been very vocal about what he likes and dislikes, and has a very large audience.[2] It seems likely they were counting on him blogging his experiences as soon as possible after his last Surface Pro post,[3] which had some fairly negative points that made using the new Surface Pro difficult (if not impossible) for him. [1]: http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2013/02/22/the-ms-surface-pro http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2013/02/22/the-ms-surf... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade [3]: http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/05/23/surface-pro-3 http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/05/23/surface-pro...
- Einstalbert 12y ago
  Microsoft keeping Gabe happy with the surface line is probably one of their top 5 PR priorities for the devices. I am not surprised by this post in the least, but I am glad that Gabe is going to get something he can use for his work.
  - mahyarm 12y ago
    Gabe being in Seattle also makes it pretty easy to interact with him.
- jeffcox 12y ago
  Gabe is just the character that initially represented Mike Krahulik, the artist of PA and the person writing those posts.
  - itafroma 12y ago
    Whoops: fixed, thanks.
morsch 12y ago
They'd have to be insane. You can't pay for advertisements like these. Despite the mixed feelings Gabe has had with Surface 3. Just look at this HN thread; every post Gabe made about the Surface caused similar comments.
vacri 12y ago
In his case, he'd already generated bad press, so letting him comment to the positive on changes they're working on benefits them.
- ajessup 12y ago
  Gabe's posts have had strong impact on a relatively small audience. It's hard to realistically imagine it's had a significant impact on Surface sales one way or the other. On the other hand when he blogs about the future direction that they are taking then this is all data that competitors will gobble up, and in many cases can bring to market ahead of MS. Quite possibly the PR gain here is offset by the future opportunity cost by giving competitors a heads up on future strategy.
  - vacri 12y ago
    "the device is done and shipping in like a week" Those competitors are probably going to have to put in a bit of overtime then :) The other stuff he talks about isn't new either - pressure curves have been around forever (I have a very old tablet thinkpad with a pressure curve) and the tablet photoshop he played with has already been displayed at a show.
higherpurpose 12y ago
They're using him as a PR sheep. Of course they didn't require an NDA.

stcredzero 12y ago

It’s very hard to take something like how the device “feels” to draw on and convert that into something engineers can use. I ended up describing it in terms of speaking. I said drawing on the Pro 2 was like having a conversation with someone. With the Surface Pro 3 I feel like I need to either whisper or yell to have the same conversation. I had to press very lightly or very hard, and it changes the way I draw. I was also able to show them some of the lag I was noticing. They could all see me draw a line and watch it pop in a split second later. There is a reason why Wacom dominated its niche for so long, even in the face of inexpensive asian knock-offs. (1) They had this stuff right. (2) Hackers who are perceptive enough that they don't underestimate the difficulty of getting this stuff right are a very small minority.

colechristensen 12y ago
It seems like Microsoft could really benefit from having conversations (or hiring) experts in the (ahem) "UI" design of aircraft. The ergonomics, feedback and force required for action on controls, button placement.... all the sorts of things a pilot has to do to interact with the machine are very well studied and, more importantly, quantified by excellent engineers. That engineering expertise could surely be translated to the physical interface of a tablet in a way that is much less possible or relevant for a keyboard and mouse interface.
steele 12y ago
In this context, who are the hackers? "asian knock-offs" seems odd in this context. Wacom is a Japanese company. Also, some inexpensive competitors like the monoprice-sold UC-Logic tablets are generally well-received despite having to shove a battery into the pen to avoid wacom's patented inductive coupling.
- stcredzero 12y ago
  In this context, who are the hackers? Programmers who tell themselves, "A stylus? Implementing that would be a piece of cake!" (I have to admit I'm guilty of this exact thing myself.) "asian knock-offs" seems odd in this context. Wacom is a Japanese company. And I'm of Korean extraction. From what I've seen, the majority of the knock-offs happen to be from asia. Those are the facts as I understand them. Your "oddness" seems to be supposition.

GodEater 12y ago

It's great to read that Gabe has had such a positive experience with a Microsoft product team - but it seems pretty obvious to me that it's because he's a somebody. His posts on penny-arcade reach an enormous audience, and so of course they're going to do their damn best to make sure he sings the product's praises. My experience is very different. I've been working for an enormous organisation for the last 4 years, and we're a tier 1 client of Microsoft's. I've had numerous occasions where I've tried to get anyone on the product team for my specialisation at Microsoft, that my company literally drops millions of pounds on to pay any attention to our requirements. And every time I've had that conversation, with the same requirements, it's like this is the first time they've heard it. They make great promises that they'll go away and think about it, and then nothing happens. And that's because I'm a nobody. I don't have a blog with a massive audience, and so they really don't give a sh!t.

sz4kerto 12y ago
Interesting. In the enterprise I worked back then we had a problem that was not MS's fault rather the result of a specific implementation detail related to how we managed software on Windows-based PCs -- Microsoft basically extended the .Net framework because we needed it. (Extended means adding a few methods and events here and there, but they definitely listened -- this was many years ago, by the way.)
_random_ 12y ago
I've heard that one company screwed up the basic fundamental component of their mobile phone once - the antenna. It was basically short-circuiting when you were holding it during the call. Their answer to consumers? "You are holding it wrong".
smacktoward 12y ago
While I don't disagree, it's also potentially due to Microsoft being a gigantic corporation with dozens of internal fiefdoms, which can each have wildly varying cultures. It's possible that the people working on consumer tech (or specifically on Surface) are open to user feedback where the people working on enterprise products just aren't. (Not that I'd say that's acceptable if it's the case, just saying it wouldn't surprise me -- especially given how terrible at these things enterprise-focused people at big companies are in general. Listening to end users and then rapidly responding to their needs is just not part of their culture.)

huhtenberg 12y ago

Gotta really give it to Microsoft. The transformation of the company under Nadella's leadership is really impressive. They really stepped up their game. They finally got someone on the PR team that actually knows what they are doing.

danudey 12y ago
It's starting to feel as though the philosophy in Microsoft is less about 'Windows everywhere', but more about relevance. Product teams are created for various niches (e.g. Surface, Azure, etc.) but those teams now have a large degree of autonomy in pursuing their goals. As an example, the Office team's goals aren't to prop up Windows as a platform by providing a sufficient but substandard product on other platforms, but rather to make a great product; as a result, Office 365 for iPad. The Surface team isn't about making a platform to foist Windows 8 onto people or pressure tablet makers, it's about making a great personal tablet/laptop frankenstein. Likewise, Azure is (reportedly) a great backend for apps on all kinds of platforms, especially on iOS, rather than a 'competitive advantage' to make sure that Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 work great with each other and only with each other. I really feel as though this is the right direction for them, and that it's producing some really great results so far.
- smacktoward 12y ago
  It's like they finally got around to reading Dave Winer's post from 13 years ago (!) on the idea of the "strategy tax" (http://scripting.com/davenet/2001/04/30/strategyTax.html http://scripting.com/davenet/2001/04/30/strategyTax.html): Sometimes products developed inside a company such as Microsoft have to accept constraints that go against competitiveness, or might displease users, in order to further the cause of another product. I recognized the concept but had never heard the term. An example. Consider a company that develops both a Web browser and a word processor. The product team for the browser might get lots of input from users saying "We'd like a better editor in the browser." It would be natural to give the users what they want. So they put the feature in their project plan, but when it comes up for review, the CEO shoots them down. "They should use the word processor," he says.
12y ago

sergiotapia 12y ago

>After I was done they told me they were going to take all the notes they had gathered and go to work on fixing the issues I had shown them. Later >To see them come back to me with fixes for my problems was really amazing. They are putting time and effort into making sure the Surface Pro 3 does what artists want it to do. Well played to the MS Surface team, I hope these fixes make it to production and stay there on the Surface 4/Surface 5. Where do you recommend I buy a Surface 3? I can buy online but is it better to get it from a brick and mortar shop?

jamesbritt 12y ago
I hope these fixes make it to production and stay there on the Surface 4/Surface 5. The sooner the better. I'm looking at getting a Surface 3 when the beefier CPUs are available, and would love to get one that fixes the issues describe by the previous PA.
rasz_pl 12y ago
More like well player PR team, they failed to fix every single issue. They couldnt even let him have the home button fix, something that sounds like a simple script I could write in AutoHotkey in two minutes tops. Surface team looks like a committee full of control freaks. cant give users control over home button, cant give users control over pressure curves (they brought two HARDWIRED tablets instead of writing configuration tool?).
- nightpool 12y ago
  Did you read the article? They're planning on distributing a pressure curve configuration tool.
  - gcanyon 12y ago
    "They're planning on distributing a pressure curve configuration tool," seems like a much stronger statement than the article's actual statement, "What they proved was that MS could release an app that let artists adjust the pressure curve to suit their style. They assured me this is something they want to do."

jychang 12y ago

Great to see Microsoft listening to issues with the Surface and attempting to fix them. Hopefully they can polish it up into a machine that can be competitive in the market.

dublinben 12y ago
It sounds like it's already competitive in the market of nerds who draw cartoons on their computers, and need to be mobile. The Wacom Cintiq is probably much better for serious drawing, though you give up the portability of a self-contained tablet computer.[1] I'm not sure the Surface will succeed in any markets other than that though. It just solve any common problems significantly better than the alternatives. [1] http://www.wacom.com/en/us/creative/cintiq-13-hd http://www.wacom.com/en/us/creative/cintiq-13-hd
- dman 12y ago
  I think it has pretty good potetial in hospitals, education and insurance where ability to take notes is important. Especially the use case where you are expected to stand and jot down things on a tablet sized device.
  - dublinben 12y ago
    Those enterprises have already been well satisfied by the convertible tablets from Lenovo, Fujitsu, Panasonic, etc. for years. I don't think the Surface will make much headway into those fields, beyond the few people who are literally working in the field and not in offices.
    - dman 12y ago
      I think the surface form factor is much slimmer than the bulky things I see in the hospital. This might be to the convertible tablets what Ipad was to the tablets before it.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]

programminggeek 12y ago

The one thing that nobody seems to appreciate when it comes to pushing forward towards retina displays is just how many more pixels, how much more memory, and how much slower everything is on the same hardware. Yet, anyone who has ever been a gamer knows that changing your resolution has a huge impact on your FPS. It is foolish to think that Microsoft can make the screen much higher resolution, have a similar chip, and not have serious performance problems in terms of responsiveness. I'm sure Microsoft can get a lot of this fixed and they will, but like the smartphone revolution, sometimes you have to wait for hardware to catch up with software or you have to write the software to take full advantage of the hardware.

LordIllidan 12y ago
Agreed, and it's not limited to Microsoft. The iPhone 4 and the iPad 3 both had 2x the resolution of their predecessors but barely managed to keep the same level of performance.
- TulliusCicero 12y ago
  Correction: 2x in each dimension, so actually 4x the total resolution.
- programminggeek 12y ago
  That's one reason Apple kept the iPad 2 around for so long. It still performs really well and for most users that makes a bigger difference than higher resolution.
neltnerb 12y ago
As someone who is not a gamer, I am curious -- why is it not the GPU that is the most critical when talking about the FPS and refresh rate for things like pen input? Is the issue that the CPU is "in the loop"? Is this a matter of the built in graphics on the Haswell chips not being quite good enough for this application, or is it actually the CPU? I mostly wonder because I've found the improvements to the GPU in the Haswell processors to be game changing. I can use Solidworks reasonably well on my core i5 laptop! The idea of doing that with integrated graphics on any other computer would have been laughable. Will a faster CPU really improve this (i7 vs i5)? Or is it a matter of getting a higher end GPU attached to the same CPU (i3 with more powerful integrated GPU)?

imaginenore 12y ago

Microsoft demoed 1ms touchscreen lag in 2012. Most modern touchscreens still have 100ms lag. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOvQCPLkPt4

wingerlang 12y ago
I was under the impression that that setup was something including a camera or something, and not an actual touchscreen.
- i_am_ralpht 12y ago
  Yeah, though maybe you could do it with FTIR instead of capacitive, so you wouldn't need external cameras.
rasz_pl 12y ago
This lag is in the software stack (mostly in UI graphics). Not in hardware. Remember Androids ~>200ms sound lag?
- imaginenore 12y ago
  Definitely not. Most of mobile software strives to run at 60fps. That's just 16.7ms.
  - rasz_pl 12y ago
    display animation at 60fps and react to a hardware input through layers and layers of software abstraction are two different things. Run of the mill 3M controller has 5ms latency http://datasheet.octopart.com/87-5961-211-3M-datasheet-21189709.pdf http://datasheet.octopart.com/87-5961-211-3M-datasheet-21189... 5 year old Fujitsu FMA1127 had 10ms. http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/MICRO/fme/tsc/FMA1127_Data_Sheet_FINAL_021209.pdf http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/MICRO/fme/tsc/FMA1127_Data_... Interrupt latency is measured in nano seconds.
    - 12y ago

agrias 12y ago

No one should be surprised Microsoft is trying to do their best to improve the Surface and converse with customers. They are great at requirements gathering. However all of this is their job and not solely out of good will. As a huge company that makes grand promises, they are expected to deliver a product that works for their customers. Would you expect any less? As customers we should care about the best products that help us achieve our end goal. If you absolutely have to give your 'loyalty' to a company, your 'loyalty' should be given (in my opinion) to the company that is predictable, consistent, and reliable.

TwistedWeasel 12y ago

It's admirable that MS is responding to criticism of their device and working for a solution. However, all the issues he experienced seem like they would be quite obvious to anyone testing the device usage for any kind of drawing application (which, for a device with a stylus seems like a common enough use case to be testing), perhaps Microsoft needs to spend more time and effort on their QA process for the next round of the Surface instead of playing catch up after release.

stcredzero 12y ago
all the issues he experienced seem like they would be quite obvious It's the classic QA paradox. The typical hacker world view doesn't prioritize such feel issues enough. Even in today's UX focused world, stylus specific issues aren't widely understood. Combine the dynamics of the Asch conformity experiment, and it makes perfect sense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnT2FcuZaYI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnT2FcuZaYI
- icebraining 12y ago
  The typical hacker shouldn't be testing this device, then. I'm sure Microsoft has someone with the skills on their teams.
  - stcredzero 12y ago
    Yes, but did the management of the team realize the above, and did that manager make sure the team would work to produce good results in this area?
  - MaulingMonkey 12y ago
    > The typical hacker shouldn't be testing this device, then. Like, say, Gabe? :)
devindotcom 12y ago
Yeah, I'm baffled as to how the button placement made it past any kind of initial hands-on testing. It's hard to imagine a person using the pen on the screen for ten or fifteen minutes not encountering that problem.

ebbv 12y ago

So if you're a famous millionaire the Surface Pro 3 is the device for you, and Microsoft will make sure to fix all your problems with it. Hooray?

steele 12y ago
It is probably a stretch to call Mike Krahulik a famous millionaire. Microsoft used his art in their recent ad campaigns, which itself was a response to a prior unsolicited positive writeup on their product. So it is perfectly reasonable that they get his feedback (albeit far too late). Not all the problems were fixed, and I suspect some of the problems can't really be fixed given the hardware that is being shipped. To some degree this is damage control on the part of Microsoft, because on his initial impressions with SP3, Krahulik was clear that he could not recommend this to illustrators with a similar workflow -- most of which are not famous millionaires.
- ebbv 12y ago
  How is it a stretch? He's a millionaire, there's no denying that. Sure mainstream people might not know who he is but in tech circles literally everyone does. So how is he not famous? I'd challenge you to find a more high profile person using Surface 3 and giving their public thoughts on it. So, my comment stands; if you are a famous millionaire then it's the product for you apparently, because Microsoft will actually fix your complaints. Otherwise, good luck.
  - steele 12y ago
    He is well-known in gaming circles moreso than tech circles (there is some overlap of course), and I can't confirm or deny he is a millionaire; frankly I have no idea. Famous has an imprecise definition; but as you conceded, "mainstream people" might not know who he is. This is why I consider it a stretch to call him a famous millionaire; I'd hesitate to use the same label used for Cliff Bleszinski or Paul Graham. Krahulk is influential in specific areas, but famous millionaire as the frame seems like a personal issue you're projecting. And regarding your challenge to find a more high profile person using the SP3 -- it is not released yet. The only people giving public thoughts on it are tech reviewers and Microsoft employees. In that regard, Microsoft used Krahulik's works on their website, so he may very well have augmented his millionaire's gold coin swimming pool with Microsoft money. Despite this, Krahulik still plainly voiced criticisms of the SP3 product, and Microsoft's surface team addressed this feedback in positive way. Of course, they want to leverage his influence. The impacted users would all theoretically benefit. I doubt that the result will be that he alone is getting a Krahulik hotpatch for personal use. As a developer working with vendor software, I too get prerelease access and are offered an avenue to submit problems I find to the vendor. The primary differences here are that I am strongly discouraged by the vendor to share my experiences with prerelease software. Lastly, Microsoft showed him that they can address somethings, but he was clear that issues remain. By contrast, the product team didn't respond with a suggestion to "just avoid holding it in that way".

richardlblair 12y ago

When MS is cornered (when they are losing in one area or another), and they are determined to win the competition should be scared. They are very good at committing to a project, and being in it for the long haul.

mikestew 12y ago
> They are very good at committing to a project, and being in it for the long haul. How so? I can think of several projects (especially hardware) that they abandoned after the first version. Granted, they gave the Zune a fair shake (though I don't think the iPod had much to be scared of). SPOT, too, considering that smart phones were starting to get useful about a year after SPOT's release. But as a counter example, I know of one unreleased hardware product they're working on right now that stands little chance of going beyond V1 due to (without inappropriately saying too much) a lack of commitment on MSFT's part. Could be that in this case they're not "determined to win", but I'm not in a position to know how determined they are.
- baggachipz 12y ago
  Xbox comes to mind....
- rlu 12y ago
  There are plenty of examples of Microsoft releasing a product which initially had little uptake but that eventually, after several releases, did well. Even big ones like Windows, Office, and SQL Server are examples of this. As for unreleased products: I think that is an orthogonal discussion.
- richardlblair 12y ago
  Excel immediately comes to mind.
PhantomGremlin 12y ago
> They are very good at committing to a project, and being in it for the long haul. Nobody has yet mentioned Microsoft PlaysForSure. Those clowns really screwed the pooch on that one. They got their "partners" to commit to a form of DRM that the Zune (brown bar of turd) didn't support and that Microsoft then abandoned. How's the "long haul" working out for that particular fiasco? Sorry if this sounds like a rant (which it is). But I don't understand how Microsoft's numerous mistakes keep getting erased into the mists of time. This wasn't something that happened eons ago. PlaysForSure was introduced a mere ten years ago. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure

milhous 12y ago

What Microsoft should do is bring more artistic people into the Surface team, perhaps engineers with artistic abilities, and by doing exactly what they did for Gabe: study how artists work. The end result is a much better product without the need for a post-mortem scramble.

josefresco 12y ago

Seems like a small niche to be focusing on. I understand the PR angle (it's a home run for the PR team) but I don't think catering to artists who draw digitally is going to make or break the tablet. Where's the feel good story about the coder, the gamer, or the office junkie? Each of which makes up a considerably larger slice of the premium laptop/tablet marketplace.

bgilroy26 12y ago
The coder, the gamer, and the office junkie are the traditional Microsoft audience from the 90s + 2000s (maybe in reverse order). Apple had the artist audience even back in the 2000s, macintoshes were really niche-y then Seeing Apple's huge success in the late 2000s, Microsoft's grand marketing strategy since has been to try and re approach a young hip, artistic audience while not losing their traditional base. It's a huge shift and it won't be easy, since managers who buy for their offices want a low-rent, predictable product and their feathers are easily ruffled.
adrianhoward 12y ago
I dunno. Not make or break maybe. Be a potentially big market - hella yeah. The majority of design-ish people I know, including myself, would kill for a decent tablet drawing environment. Folk are already laying out for specialist devices like http://www.wacom.com/en/gb/creative/cintiq-24-hd-touch http://www.wacom.com/en/gb/creative/cintiq-24-hd-touch. My iPad is cute and useful for many things. I do very rough sketch stuff on it. For professional deign work it's pretty much useless. As somebody who's been buying Apple kit since before Jobs return the surface is the first time I've ever been tempted by Windows hardware. I know many folk who walk around with a Macbook + iPad + wacom tablet. I can see a lot of those folk switching if the Surface 3 worked well. I know lots of long-term Apple folk who were really tempted by the Surface 2. The office junkies, coders and games have alternatives. Currently there is almost nothing that does what the Surface 2/3 do, on the design side, in a single device. (I also imagine that the issues of stylus sensitivity & lag will apply to other interaction models to. Getting those things to feel "natural" is non-trivial. Pleasing the design folk will probably make it better for other peeps too.)
- 12y ago

krschultz 12y ago

"You hear a lot about MS being this massive company that doesn’t listen but that’s really not fair in this case." Every large company is made up of thousands of individual people, many of which really care about making a good product and making customers happy. The whole question in managing a big company is how to get out of the way of that natural process, while still coordinating all the disparate groups so that the final product works.

seanewest 12y ago
What natural process?
Tloewald 12y ago
Actually MS has always listened. The problem has been (a) whom they listened to (the user has usually not been their customer) and (b) lack of "taste". MS Office is, for good and ill, exactly what you get when you give users what they ask for and have no taste.
- balls187 12y ago
  Office 2013, specifically Excel and Word are fantastic.
  - rthomas6 12y ago
    Except for my use case, which is when you have a 1,200 page document with hundreds of tables, lists, and pictures. The thing grinds to a halt and has all sorts of problems. Yes, I know that MS Word is not the best choice for documents that big, but it's not up to me.
    - nightpool 12y ago
      Honest question, why can't you split the document and work on individual chapters?
    - tallanvor 12y ago

Aissen 12y ago

> I could see some of them shaking their heads and looking at each other. They were very obviously bothered that they had not seen this before. To me this looks like engineers that had foreseen the problem but were promptly ignored by UX people. Or maybe the other way around.

saidajigumi 12y ago
IMO, this is a great example of why show me don't tell me is vital in product creation. Here, the folks empowered to make the change saw the problem with their own eyes. They may indeed have heard or speculated about this issue previously. But there's a fundamental difference between someone saying something, filtered through language, organizational priorities, etc. and making that realization on your own. Related, this is a part of why good data viz is so powerful: it allows others to quickly and independently reach the same associations and conclusions. A real-world example: a data viz of game beta test user data shows player deaths in an area with no enemies. Curious. Linking over to video from an affected player just before the death reveals a level design error: a tunnel wall wasn't made solid. This allowed players to "fall out" of the level, causing the game to kill them. The development team relayed that before they had these tools, there would often be a back-and-forth with the level designers ("no, that can't be right!"). But now they'd just call them over, show them, and the level designer would get a bit pale and run back to their desk ("brb, gotta fix that NOW!").
- drmarianus 12y ago
  While I completely agree with your point that there are things that are better shown then described, it doesn't seem that difficult to say, "The home button is positioned such that it is too easy to accidentally hit it."
  - mitchell209 12y ago
    Plus all one would have to do is actually use the pen for drawing. It doesn't take an artist actually using it to understand how that's a problem.

steele 12y ago

Surface Pro is very interesting from a product management perspective. Surface Pro 1 satisfied this niche, and Surface Pro 2 improved upon the first model significantly. Surface Pro 3 addresses many of the form factor concessions of the previous model (aspect ratio, thickness) which would make it theoretically more palatable to the mainstream use cases -- however, the N-Trig digitizer and button placement hardware decisions makes this less appealing to that aforementioned niche. BUT, you don't have to update. People that found great use in SP1+2, have very little incentive to upgrade for several reasons. Short cycles and price aside, the dilemma is now whether this niche can even commit to buying or recommend a SP2 or Surface Pro accessories even prices drop because SP3 is a clear signal of a significant form factor change. The frankly necessary blade accessories are now fragmented between form factors and the older form will not likely be supported going forward.

i_am_ralpht 12y ago

Interesting that the Surface Pro 2 did so much better in terms of "feel" and "lag". I wonder if the switch to the nTrig panel is behind the regression (I have an old HP TX2 with an nTrig panel; it was always terrible, but maybe they've improved since then...).

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listic 12y ago

And I was going to use a Surface Pro tablet with Ubuntu Linux. If even Microsoft cannot make the device work right the first time around, even while apparently trying hard, I wonder how bad will the situation be on Linux. Still going to try; maybe later, when touch support on Ubuntu will be more ready and Surface Pro's will drop in price on eBay (I'm thinking of going with 256MB+ Surface Pro 2, unless they will make a newer generation of smaller tablets)

wfunction 12y ago

I hope he's getting paid for his time. MS should really be hiring him.

nacs 12y ago
He probably gets paid in the form of free Surface tablets and accessories.

pistle 12y ago

So when Apple lets people test out a new language, and the author notes important, but not universally demanded features, the tone is "It's amazing how awesome Apple is. Can't wait to see how it works out." When MS does something not wholly different, there's a bunch of "HarrrrUMPH! They should have got this fixed already. It's such an obviously easy thing. If they were half the company or any open source community was, they would try to create something like a programming language!!" Those contentious bones.

shinratdr 12y ago
Those situations are so different from each other I'm honestly amazed you wrote it, looked at it, and still thought it was a smart move to play that card.

AdmiralAsshat 12y ago

If memory serves, he was sent a Surface Pro 2 by Microsoft. And a Surface Pro 3. I don't recall if he was given the original Pro or if he bought that one himself. Either way, I would view his endorsement and any other interaction with Microsoft with a shaker of salt; this is not at all dissimilar from the multitude of celebrities whom Samsung sends the latest Galaxy phone in a swag bag in order to get a "I wasn't paid off, I just really like it!" endorsement. His celebrity status commands him a certain amount of influence for whatever judgment he proclaims on the Surface (note, for instance, how every post he makes about it ends up on the front page of HN). I can guarantee if the same points were raised by a normal person who paid for the thing on their tumblr blog, there would not be a team of Microsoft engineers rushing to fix them.

kyoji 12y ago

Theres so much vitriol toward Microsoft in this thread regarding them "using" Krahulik as a PR pawn in their nefarious marketing schemes. He has written extensively about his experience using the Surface as a tool for professional illustration work (and for recreation) in the past; his thoughts on the Surface Pro 3 are not his first rodeo. As someone who has been looking to buy a Surface for illustration work, it's so encouraging to see Microsoft even engaging with Krahulik, since it indicates to me that 'Artist' is a group of people they are actively pursuing, and willing to cater their device toward. He is an accomplished artist, and was a good pick to get feedback on this particular use of the device. It is also great PR and goodwill for Microsoft, but Krahulik's concerns seemed very genuine, and the fixes to them will benefit everyone like me who are looking to use their Surface for the same purpose.

BigChiefSmokem 12y ago

Why don't they just take off the Windows button? Can't you just swipe in from the right side of the screen to see the on-screen version? There's a Windows button in the task bar as well.

kevingadd 12y ago
It's more or less like the home button on an iPhone or iPad. Gestures are good, but there are scenarios where you can't easily use them or a novice user won't know about them. The Start button doesn't always show up in Desktop scenarios. Also, I think you can use it to wake a device from sleep?

hyp0 12y ago

Microsoft bringing protoypes to the PA offices seems about as expected as this Dave Barry line: giant talking broccoli stalks will come around and mow your lawn, for free Touchscreen latency is difficult, especially with increasing resolution. But if they managed it acceptably for the SP 2, it must be possible, I guess.

jtuente 12y ago

TBH, as soon as I saw the change from a Wacom digitizer to N-Trig's I cringed. I don't know what differences there are between the technologies they each use, but Wacom's is definitely more responsive on the whole. I like that they aren't using a 16:9 aspect ratio for the screen, but the switch away from Wacom kept me from making the Surface an automatic purchase.

jodrellblank 12y ago
Did you see http://surfaceproartist.com/blog/2014/5/27/microsoft-addresses-n-trig-concerns-in-reddit-response http://surfaceproartist.com/blog/2014/5/27/microsoft-address... ?

throwawaykf05 12y ago

Some people are wondering (here and on the previous post) how this problem could have escaped usability testing. My guess is, Gabe seems to have a somewhat unusual grip, so it's more than plausible nobody anticipated this problem. I am not a professional artist, but I've been drawing for more than two decades now. I also have an original Surface Pro because I really wanted to get my hands on a Wacom that could do more than just draw. I've churned out tons of sketches on it using Sketchbook Express. When his first review of the Pro 3 came out, I could not understand why he had problems with the home button. When I draw, my palm tends to rest on the lower right corner of the screen. This is also how I've seen most other sketchers draw. I could not position myself such that I'd hit where the home button on the Pro 3 is. However, I've also seen enough people write with really (to me) weird grips. I imagine that it extends to drawing as well.

megablast 12y ago

This is going to be great SP4 is going to work great for Gabe. But surely these changes were made for a reason?

gcb0 12y ago

if anything, this is a testament to why closed source software is dead. Spend $1000+ on a device. it doesn't do what you want? get world famous and complain. have a team of engineers fix it for you. ...right. Almost everything i hated on my first android phone i fixed it myself or lazily waited for someone else to fix it... yeah, it took a year or so to have it how i liked. My new phone, if i install any custom ROM i will lose some of the new hardware functionality, so i can't. i have to wait for the company to fix the annoyances i have, which i am pretty sure will be never. sadly i don't have the time to make the new hardware work because that is a retarded huge amount of time you need to waste.

zerny 12y ago

It's good to see tech companies like Microsoft and Apple trying to make the artists happy, not forgetting every human being has their own artistic side. The last sentence is very inspiring, though.

dharma1 12y ago

I'm kind of surprised they didn't run these type of tests BEFORE releasing surfae 3 pro

mukundmr 12y ago

Why would people want to use a Surface Pro3 as a drawing tablet? What is the target consumer for this device? The last time I played with the device, it was running regular Windows apps on a small screen and it was a nightmare getting the menus and buttons right. If applications have to be tailored for the Surface, how will they work on the desktop?

freehunter 12y ago
The Surface Pro 3 has a 12 inch screen compared to the Surface Pro 2's 10 inch screen and the Macbook Air's 11 inch screen, so the real estate is improved by quite a bit. It gets expensive to find a larger screen with a digitizer, and the guys from PA are on the road quite a bit so I'd imagine portability counts.

golergka 12y ago

> I could see some of them shaking their heads and looking at each other. They were very obviously bothered that they had not seen this before. Why I can't imagine Apple being in such a situation?

deleted 12y ago
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thisjepisje 12y ago

Sounds to me like they just hadn´t thought about this use case deep enough. Good to see they´re doing something about it, and with some nice publicity at that.

laichzeit0 12y ago

It looks ugly as hell. I would never want to be seen using something like that.