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AFAIK the Epic of Gilgamesh does not include the "fountains of the deep" aspect of the Noah story that's relevant here, and also there aren't a lot of Sumerian

by chc 12y ago

AFAIK the Epic of Gilgamesh does not include the "fountains of the deep" aspect of the Noah story that's relevant here, and also there aren't a lot of Sumerian creationists around.

melling 12y ago
I was simply pointing out that there are many flood stories in many cultures. I added another link for more references. I just know that Gilgamesh is one of the oldest. Many cultures, including the some Indians in North America, have incorporated it into their mythology.
- ars 12y ago
  > I was simply pointing out that there are many flood stories in many cultures Being in many cultures isn't evidence against the story, as it seems you are trying to imply. It could simply mean there was one huge flood and lots of cultures recorded it. I am aware there is no scientific mechanism to cause a worldwide flood, this is explicitly about divine intervention. (i.e. a miracle, not creationism pseudo science).
  - nitrogen 12y ago
    Everything that happens on a geological scale leaves geological evidence. There is no such evidence for a global flood. It's not just the mechanism for causing the flood that's missing, but any sign of it whatsoever. I grew up learning about and believing in a global flood, and confronting the hard truth that there is no evidence for a flood was an important part of my intellectual development. However, since there are reasons other than reason and evidence for people to believe in a flood, no amount of reasoning or evidence will change those beliefs, so I propose we focus on the tantalizing science fiction implications instead.
    - Gregorein 12y ago
      No proof? Go check sedimentary layers in affrica / Arabia / golden triangle
      - espadrine 12y ago
        > Go check sedimentary layers in affrica / Arabia / golden triangle 1. Why only those? Isn't it global? 2. This comment has no value without an academic paper to reference. If nobody has studied it, this is just hot air. If someone has, you are expected to link to it in these lands. 3. It's "Africa". Not "affrica".
    - crusso 12y ago
      no amount of reasoning or evidence will change those beliefs It worked for you, didn't it? It also worked for me. That's two of us. There are more. Keep the uh... "faith".
      - waps 12y ago
        There is, however, plenty of evidence for a huge, huge flood at about the correct time. About 1/3 of the Black Sea was dry land until about 6000 BC [1]. The theory goes that it went from essentially dry land with forests and cities and ... to open sea in as little as 2 months, which can't have been a pleasant experience for the inhabitants. Also note that floods don't simply go in a straight line from A->B. In practice because towns are built on the more stable land, what you'd see happen is pretty much the worst possible scenario : the water would surround cities, first making most roads unusable (non hardened ones because they become mud, hardened ones because some parts of them collapse). Then the water level would rise until nothing remains above the water level. (I've got some experience living in Northwest Europe, and every 20 years or so you get introduced to this problem firsthand) Of course, even though the affected area was huge, it was still a local phenomenon. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
        nitrogen 12y ago
        It is indeed fascinating to study possible true origins of flood myths and other myths, but it's important to remember that finding a possibly true local origin doesn't provide evidence for a miraculous flood, whether global or local.
    - tinco 12y ago
      The absence of evidence is not proof of the contrary. I am an atheist and I laud your dedication to evidence based reason, but don't go overboard and ignore things many people believe are true, often they do for a reason. That said, if there never was such a flood there would likely be evidence that it never happened.
      - knodi123 12y ago
        I'm curious what you think "evidence that it never happened" would look like, except for looking like the absence of evidence? What would evidence that there was never a global flood look like? One example might be "lack of a global species disruption in the fossil layer". But that's just absence of evidence again.
        jcromartie 12y ago
        You're talking about the idea of the Genesis flood, occurring some 4500 years ago, drastically rearranging the recently-created Earth's geology, wiping out every living thing except for the few that survived on a boat that landed on a single mountain in what is modern-day Turkey? I think there are some predictions you could make there. However every single one of them is just so far divorced from what we observe that they aren't even worth enumerating.
      - scott_s 12y ago
        Absence of evidence is not "proof" of the contrary, but it is evidence of the contrary. "Proof" is a complicated word. People typically take it to mean "slam-dunk, 100%, without-a-doubt proves the case." But little in science ever works like that. Math, sure, where you can prove things analytically. But when trying to "prove" things about the universe, you have to collect bodies of evidence, and see how well that evidence matches expectations. So, when you go out looking for something, and despite your best efforts, cannot find it, then that may not "prove" that something did not happen, but it is good evidence in support that it did not.
      - marcosdumay 12y ago
        That depends entirely on how hard you looked. Despite centuries of scientists looking hard for evidence of it (and knowing what kind of evidence they are looking for, adn being able to get it), they've been unable to get any. That's as strong evidence of the inexistence of a phenomenun as you can get.
    - bashinator 12y ago
      At the time of those flood myths, "global" would have referred to a moderate portion of the middle east and north africa.
- kaonashi 12y ago
  Probably has more to do with the first cultures that developed agriculture living near large rivers.
  - PhasmaFelis 12y ago
    IIRC, there is some evidence of a very large flood in...western Asia, I think?...caused by a highland sea breaking through a natural dam and emptying into a lowland area, right around the time that humans were starting to keep histories. It was big enough to affect multiple distinct cultures at the time. There's a theory that that's the origin of the ubiquitous Great Flood stories.
    - cholmon 12y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
    - will_work4tears 12y ago
      Also the Missoula Floods[0], though it's possible nobody was really around, and if there was, probably not many ( assuming humans started migrating ~18,000 years ago, it's possible some were there) [0]-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_Floods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_Floods
      - waps 12y ago
        He might mean this, since the time period is a bit more correct : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
> also there aren't a lot of Sumerian creationists around Given Christianity has roots in Judaism and Judaism probably has some roots in Sumerian religion, I'm not sure if you could say that. Religions evolve from other religions, and in a geographic area, are likely to have common ancestors.

by chc 12y ago

AFAIK the Epic of Gilgamesh does not include the "fountains of the deep" aspect of the Noah story that's relevant here, and also there aren't a lot of Sumerian creationists around.

melling 12y ago

I was simply pointing out that there are many flood stories in many cultures. I added another link for more references. I just know that Gilgamesh is one of the oldest. Many cultures, including the some Indians in North America, have incorporated it into their mythology.

ars 12y ago
> I was simply pointing out that there are many flood stories in many cultures Being in many cultures isn't evidence against the story, as it seems you are trying to imply. It could simply mean there was one huge flood and lots of cultures recorded it. I am aware there is no scientific mechanism to cause a worldwide flood, this is explicitly about divine intervention. (i.e. a miracle, not creationism pseudo science).
- nitrogen 12y ago
  Everything that happens on a geological scale leaves geological evidence. There is no such evidence for a global flood. It's not just the mechanism for causing the flood that's missing, but any sign of it whatsoever. I grew up learning about and believing in a global flood, and confronting the hard truth that there is no evidence for a flood was an important part of my intellectual development. However, since there are reasons other than reason and evidence for people to believe in a flood, no amount of reasoning or evidence will change those beliefs, so I propose we focus on the tantalizing science fiction implications instead.
  - Gregorein 12y ago
    No proof? Go check sedimentary layers in affrica / Arabia / golden triangle
    - espadrine 12y ago
      > Go check sedimentary layers in affrica / Arabia / golden triangle 1. Why only those? Isn't it global? 2. This comment has no value without an academic paper to reference. If nobody has studied it, this is just hot air. If someone has, you are expected to link to it in these lands. 3. It's "Africa". Not "affrica".
  - crusso 12y ago
    no amount of reasoning or evidence will change those beliefs It worked for you, didn't it? It also worked for me. That's two of us. There are more. Keep the uh... "faith".
    - waps 12y ago
      There is, however, plenty of evidence for a huge, huge flood at about the correct time. About 1/3 of the Black Sea was dry land until about 6000 BC [1]. The theory goes that it went from essentially dry land with forests and cities and ... to open sea in as little as 2 months, which can't have been a pleasant experience for the inhabitants. Also note that floods don't simply go in a straight line from A->B. In practice because towns are built on the more stable land, what you'd see happen is pretty much the worst possible scenario : the water would surround cities, first making most roads unusable (non hardened ones because they become mud, hardened ones because some parts of them collapse). Then the water level would rise until nothing remains above the water level. (I've got some experience living in Northwest Europe, and every 20 years or so you get introduced to this problem firsthand) Of course, even though the affected area was huge, it was still a local phenomenon. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
      - nitrogen 12y ago
        It is indeed fascinating to study possible true origins of flood myths and other myths, but it's important to remember that finding a possibly true local origin doesn't provide evidence for a miraculous flood, whether global or local.
  - tinco 12y ago
    The absence of evidence is not proof of the contrary. I am an atheist and I laud your dedication to evidence based reason, but don't go overboard and ignore things many people believe are true, often they do for a reason. That said, if there never was such a flood there would likely be evidence that it never happened.
    - knodi123 12y ago
      I'm curious what you think "evidence that it never happened" would look like, except for looking like the absence of evidence? What would evidence that there was never a global flood look like? One example might be "lack of a global species disruption in the fossil layer". But that's just absence of evidence again.
      - jcromartie 12y ago
        You're talking about the idea of the Genesis flood, occurring some 4500 years ago, drastically rearranging the recently-created Earth's geology, wiping out every living thing except for the few that survived on a boat that landed on a single mountain in what is modern-day Turkey? I think there are some predictions you could make there. However every single one of them is just so far divorced from what we observe that they aren't even worth enumerating.
    - scott_s 12y ago
      Absence of evidence is not "proof" of the contrary, but it is evidence of the contrary. "Proof" is a complicated word. People typically take it to mean "slam-dunk, 100%, without-a-doubt proves the case." But little in science ever works like that. Math, sure, where you can prove things analytically. But when trying to "prove" things about the universe, you have to collect bodies of evidence, and see how well that evidence matches expectations. So, when you go out looking for something, and despite your best efforts, cannot find it, then that may not "prove" that something did not happen, but it is good evidence in support that it did not.
    - marcosdumay 12y ago
      That depends entirely on how hard you looked. Despite centuries of scientists looking hard for evidence of it (and knowing what kind of evidence they are looking for, adn being able to get it), they've been unable to get any. That's as strong evidence of the inexistence of a phenomenun as you can get.
  - bashinator 12y ago
    At the time of those flood myths, "global" would have referred to a moderate portion of the middle east and north africa.
kaonashi 12y ago
Probably has more to do with the first cultures that developed agriculture living near large rivers.
- PhasmaFelis 12y ago
  IIRC, there is some evidence of a very large flood in...western Asia, I think?...caused by a highland sea breaking through a natural dam and emptying into a lowland area, right around the time that humans were starting to keep histories. It was big enough to affect multiple distinct cultures at the time. There's a theory that that's the origin of the ubiquitous Great Flood stories.
  - cholmon 12y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
  - will_work4tears 12y ago
    Also the Missoula Floods[0], though it's possible nobody was really around, and if there was, probably not many ( assuming humans started migrating ~18,000 years ago, it's possible some were there) [0]-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_Floods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_Floods
    - waps 12y ago
      He might mean this, since the time period is a bit more correct : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

> also there aren't a lot of Sumerian creationists around Given Christianity has roots in Judaism and Judaism probably has some roots in Sumerian religion, I'm not sure if you could say that. Religions evolve from other religions, and in a geographic area, are likely to have common ancestors.