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As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing. I'm
by te_platt 12y ago
As bad as governmental abuses can be in the U.S. I find it somewhat comforting that suing the CIA doesn't mean some people are going to start disappearing. I'm guessing not too many Russians sued the KGB.
- pdevr 12y agoAlso, the fact that you have the freedom to discuss and criticize CIA on a public forum. A strong democracy's pros outweigh its cons by a large margin - almost always.
- malka 12y agoyeah, you can speak and discuss all you want on internet. That will cause some big changes for the CIA I'm sure. As a french humorist (Coluche) used to say : Tyranny is 'shut the fuck up' Democracy is 'Talk to the hand'
- tendom 12y agoNone of this is about democracy, but the freedoms of the constitution and a less corrupt system than some other countries. Corruption still exists heavily in America, but it's primarily focused on money and lobbies and whatnot.
- chad_oliver 12y agoIt may not be directly associated to the democratic process for electing a government, but I think you'll find that it's still closely related to democracy in general. Democracy is fundamentally anchored on the idea that the legitimate right to govern derives from the people, not from the sword or from the blessing of a priest. This means that governments exist to serve the people, not the other way around. The freedoms of the constitution derive from this principle.
- Swizec 12y agoFun historical fact: In medieval Karantania[1] the "king" was appointed and crowned by the people. He still inherited his title and whatnot, but had to be approved by his people and a free peasant performed the coronation. So, not a democracy, but right to govern still derives from the people. It has been done. From wikipedia: > The ritual was performed in the Slovene language by a free peasant who, selected by his peers, in the name of the people of the land questioned the new Prince about his integrity and reminded him of his duties. Later, when the Duchy of Carinthia had fallen to the Habsburgs, the idea that it was actually the people from whom the Duke of Carinthia received his legitimation was the basis of the Habsburgs' claim to the unique title of Archduke. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karantania http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karantania
- jacquesm 12y agoBeats the crap out of 'ordained by the heavens'. What never ceases to amaze me is that good solutions to lots of things have been found over time and were lost again.
- tendom 12y agoWell, I think this is not the case in practice, only in ideal. Russia is democratic by definition (far more so than China is communist), so is almost all of South America, at least a third of Africa, most of Europe, and several Asian countries including India (Which just had the biggest democratic election in the world), and most of coastal Asia. There are a few in the middle east, but those have yet to really take fruit. Democracy in practice only means the people get to choose from one or more preselected individuals.
- clarkmoody 12y agoPrecisely. A strong republic is more of what you want.
- tendom 12y agoWell, the bulk of the governments today can be classified as Democracy, Monarchy, and Constitutional Monarchy. On the whole, if we average the types of government, you'll find that Constitutional Monarchy actually has a higher middle class wealth, more freedom, and less 'mysterious disappearances' than the republics. I've seen some pretty bad republics in my travels.
- lmg643 12y agoAlso, CIA != NSA. CIA are the people doing field work and writing intelligence assessments, NSA is doing mass surveillance/SIGINT. Believe it or not - they compete for funding and attention from their paymasters like any bureaucracy.
- retrogradeorbit 12y agoDoing "field work" like Odessa. http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/08/false-flag-in-odessa/ http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/08/false-flag-in-odessa/
- megablast 12y agoI wonder if we got to where we are now, with a much more open and free society, by pushing for it to be better, or postulating that it could be worse?
- patcon 12y agoThis is great perspective. Thanks.
- goldenkey 12y agoI think you are speaking too soon.
- retrogradeorbit 12y agoThat may be because no one needs to be disappeared, because the plaintiff just won't win. Remember the Church Committee only managed to scratch the surface. So what makes you think that suddenly, now, there will be transparency and justice. And even if the court ruled for the plaintiff, what happens if the CIA refuses to comply? Who is gonna hold them to account? You? Congress? The president? LOL.
- adobriyan 12y agoIn back then USSR liberal loonies cried that "freedom of choice between 2 or more candidates in elections" is all you need.
- higherpurpose 12y agoNSA is already acting like it's "too big to comply", so it actually doesn't sound too far fetched: https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/too-big-comply-nsa-says-its-too-large-complex-comply-court-order https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/too-big-comply-n...
- rebootize 12y agoI'm afraid that in a government of rampant spying, secret laws, secret courts, and secret gag letters, believing that people aren't being silenced because you don't hear about it requires your own personal leap of faith. One of the strengths of the US Government is that they're smarter than to whisk people away in the middle of the night. That's why they're around and the KGB isn't. It remains to be seen whether that's a good thing or not.
- tedks 12y agoPlaying a rigged game is never a threat to the game-rigger. Do more than that[0][1] and the kid gloves come off. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_%28journalist%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hastings_%28journalist... [1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coo...
- sid6376 12y agoThe second link looks particularly scary. Does anyone have a rebuttal to this?
- mseebach 12y agoPeeling off the grandstanding, hyperbolic huffing and puffing, what's left is that the law enforcement response to the nationally coordinated Occupy movement was nationally coordinated.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- corpselord420 12y agothe fbi colluding with banks to stifle political dissent is a little more alarming than that
- wpietri 12y agoNot at all. Occupy was political. Individual police departments cracking down on political dissent is problematic. But when the federal government does it, federal powers make it much more significant. And when you see those folks all working with private security to suppress political dissent, it's deeply problematic. That's especially true given that the feds have a history of illegal surveillance of (and even interference with) political activity that powerful people happened to find uncomfortable: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
- atmosx 12y agoIf cold war communist Russia became the limit now, I'm sorry to say that we're screwed.
- StavrosK 12y ago"Phew! I'm glad we're not the USSR yet!"
- grecy 12y agoIt's a shame you would compare a Developed country, supposedly one of the best, with one that's knows to be not so good. It's like comparing your sports team to one that consistently finishes low on the ladder - your team will always look good, even when they are far from the top. If you want a comparison that will lead to improvement, compare your country to those known to have excellent human rights and freedom of information track records.
- ZenPro 12y agoPlease name some countries with excellent human rights and freedom of information track records. The OP compared one member of the UN Security Council with another. There are five permanent members. Are any of the UNSC on your list?
- mrpopo 12y agoThere would be France and the UK. Why do you consider the UNSC as an interesting subset when comparing governmental abuses? This is a genuine question.
- anExcitedBeast 12y agoThe UK does everything the US does and more, just without the pretense of a concern for freedom. France is a cesspool of corruption and systemic bigotry, particularly towards Islamic people. The Security Council are the most powerful countries in the most widely recognized international decision making body. I think it's a fair way to identify US "peers".
- notrelevant 12y agomaybe not disappearing, but discredeting and imprisoning (Snowden, gitmo) to serve the same effect.
- CodeMage 12y ago"I know it's been years since I won the Wimbledon, but I can still beat a seven year old kid at tennis!"