13 ms·

The day I left my son in the car

108 points by klunger 12y ago

nkurz 12y ago
I'd be interested in hearing non-US perspectives on this. Is it acceptable elsewhere to leave your small child alone in the car for 5 minutes while you get something from a store? Would you fear for the child's safety, of legal action, or neither? Is the US leading the way criminalizing parents who do such things, or are there other countries that have been doing this for years?
- friendly_chap 12y ago
  I find this pretty crazy. Going with a really contrived example, using the same logic, we could make it illegal to step next to your children because you could potentially break their skull with your elbow. Way too many ifs. However, the goal itself, namely protecting children is noble. I guess hitting the sweet spot between being neglective and overly protective is hard. Such is the nature of most social issues.
- jason_slack 12y ago
  Yes, I would love to hear about this too. I once left my son in the car for literally 2 mins while he was sleeping to buy a soda in a gas station. I am in the US.
- GuiA 12y ago
  Grew up in France in the 90s, in a small upper middle class town. My mother definitely left me alone in the car while she was running errands many, many times (which I liked because it meant I could just read my book, which is all I cared about as a kid). My parents also let me walk back and forth to the library (half a mile or so away) on my own fairly early on. When we lived in the US for 2 years (pre 9/11), my parents definitely experienced a few police-state-related cultural shocks. One time, a kid started hitting me in the school bus. It turned out that the kid lived in the same apartment complex as we did. That evening, my dad saw him playing outside, went up to him, and gave him a few stern words. A few hours later, his mother had called the police, and my dad ended up spending a few hours at the local police station. We still lived in the US for another year or so after that, but nowadays my parents heavily dislike this country, and tend to avoid visiting me as much they can. FTR I don't see myself staying in the US when I start having kids.
  - tptacek 12y ago
    One of your stated reasons for leaving the US when you have kids is that the US is hostile to adults assaulting children? Because that's the circumstance you described with your father and the kid from school.
    - cpach 12y ago
      Um, what? scolding != assaulting, no? But of course it might have been better if the kids’ parents took up the matter between them.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        I chose my words carefully. When an adult confronts a child and terrifies them verbally, that is assault. That's not my opinion; that's the law. Because it is so easy for an adult to create a credible fear of violence in a child, it is very poor judgement for adults to directly confront children.
        shintakezou 12y ago
        And the fact you see assault, and a law teaches you that it is so, instead of just scolding, is a cultural bias (sort of) and a point in favor of not living in US - or similar countries - for anyone born and grown up where these deceptive concepts are absent and hopefully not carved in a law. Once common sense would have been enough: do you scolded my child? Why? What's happened? ... Ha, ok, my son did something wrong... and so on... Usually it's not that hard. Instead, a society rambling towards paranoia and driven by fear (especially this), makes a citizen feel the urge to "look at" a greater power, the Great Protector, to "protect" him/her even from an unexistant menace - or to seek revenge. In the story we are commenting, the first thing I have noticed and blamed was the following: the mother surrenders to the request of the son who wants to go with her to the store. There, she makes the first mistake: the son had to stay at home with the grandma.
    - GuiA 12y ago
      `tptacek, I'm not sure you'll ever see this, but I'll reply to your point anyways: As `shintakezou pointed out, this is very much a cultural matter here. France (where my parents and I are from) tends to subscribe more to the "it takes a village to raise a child" mentality. Correcting the behavior of someone else's child at the park, supermarket, in the bus, etc. if they are out of the parent's sight is perfectly acceptable in French culture, and as a kid it happened to me many times, without traumatizing me (even when it was a scary old man yelling at me). It is not perceived as assault, and it is certainly not "terrifying them verbally" (I find that phrasing a little bit excessive though, and am surprised that you extracted that from my "a few stern words"). In retrospect, the one thing my father did wrong was not considering that he was living in a different culture, and that something that seemed normal to him might be scandalous in the US. But that only makes my wish to leave the US when I have children even more valid in my eyes: I'd hate to find myself in those sort of cultural misunderstandings that can very easily escalate juridically. I do find the US's approach to parenting very poor: France's approach to parenting is that kids are human beings in construction, and that they do not inherently know what is right or wrong, good or bad - and it is up to adults (parents or not) to let them know (that doesn't mean that their feelings or interests are invalid because they are "incomplete": it just means that they are lacking the knowledge of social mores, conventions, mental tools, etc. required to be productive citizens). The US's approach to parenting falls more in line with the belief that children are just "little adults" and that one should respect their wishes and desires no matter what, which I find preposterous.
- Fizzadar 12y ago
  When I got to the bit about being arrested I was completely baffled... there's a law against this? I'm from the UK and as a child was left in the car for short periods, which is almost certainly commonplace. I'm simply stunned that parents can be prosecuted for this. Another wtf America moment.
  - mcherm 12y ago
    Actually, as the article explained there is NOT a law against leaving your kids in the car. Such a law was proposed and the legislature refused to pass it. Instead, the prosecutor decided to charge her with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" which is a broad catch-all category for doing things that might harm a child. She was not found guilty of this crime either. Instead, her lawyer advised her to agree to punishment for the crime because if it went to trial there was a CHANCE that she would lose custody of her children. The problem here is not in the law nor in the outcome of a court case. The problem lies in the structure of the legal system. Prosecutors wield enormous power by virtue of their ability to decide whom to charge and for what. The penalties for losing are so great that nearly all (around 95%) cases are settled rather than contested before a judge or jury.
  - fps 12y ago
    There's no specific law against it in the majority of US states (http://www.kidsandcars.org/state-laws.html http://www.kidsandcars.org/state-laws.html) The laws against leaving a child alone in a car are stricter than leaving them home alone (http://www.imom.com/parenting/tikes/parenting/safety/home-alone-rules-by-state/ http://www.imom.com/parenting/tikes/parenting/safety/home-al...) because children dying of heat stroke in cars has made headlines in the past 20 years. Many laws in the US are purposely vague and up to the interpretation of the police. The mother was charged with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Contributing+to+the+Delinquency+of+a+Minor http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Contributing+t...), which can be used against anyone that does something that might possibly result in a child being adversely affected in some way. The unfortunate part of life in the US is that the average person breaks a few dozen laws every day, and it's really important not to upset the police in some way that they'll take notice of you and start charging you with crimes.
- sampo 12y ago
  > I'd be interested in hearing non-US perspectives on this. Finland here. Some people would leave a child in a car when they conduct a short errand, and some people would not, and the latter might frown upon the former. But the law enforcement would never ever get involved. That Salon article is just absurd. A whole new level of American weirdness. (Then again, we rarely have weather as hot as the more southern countries.)
  - valarauca1 12y ago
    I don't exactly mean to question this, but in Finland is it common for the inside of cars to reach 40-50C within an hour during the summer?
    - sluukkonen 12y ago
      During the hottest days of the summer (it very rarely goes above 28C or so - average maximum temperature is around 22C during the hottest summer months in southern Finland), yes, but not that often.
    - yason 12y ago
      Less than an hour, I'd say. A warm summer day can easily be 25-30C, typically 20-25C. That's enough to go to 50C in an hour, windows closed, even on a half-cloudy day.
- t0mas88 12y ago
  In the Netherlands I would not expect any legal consequences or police involvement over leaving a kid in a car in the way described in the article (e.g. window open and only for a few minutes).
  - w0utert 12y ago
    Second that, I can hardly believe this story is for real. When I grew up my parents left me (and my brother and sister) alone in the car all the time. Never for more than a few minutes obviously, but otherwise it was perfectly normal. They also let us cycle to school, play outside without being monitored all the time, roam around the woods, whatever. It was the same with all my friends. Surprisingly, everyone turned out just fine, and I've never heard of a single (near) fatal incident caused by this kind of negligence around me. I think I vaguely remember a baby died in a car in The Netherlands a few years ago though. You have to wonder what kind of parenting leads to forgetting you left your baby in the car though, and how long it would take for some other serious incident to occur if you're so absent minded. That said, anyone has a right to disagree whether leaving your kid in the car when you have to stop at the store is acceptable, but prosecuting a parent for it is downright insane.
- DanBC 12y ago
  On a slight tangent: Baby sitting. Some people in the UK take an extreme view on age of baby sitters. See this BBC article (in my parenting SE answer) about a woman leaving her 14 year old son in charge of a 3 year old boy for 30 minutes and the trouble that caused. (She should not have accepted the caution. I am surprised that's what the solicitor suggested, and I'm not sure she actually got a solicitor.) http://parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/12599/what-is-considered-to-be-a-safe-age-to-be-a-babysitter/12604#12604 http://parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/12599/what-is-c...
- robaato 12y ago
  In the UK things have changed and so parents need to be careful. Various high profile cases have resulted in changes to both social services and police processing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Victoria_Climbi%C3%A9#Child_protection_changes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Victoria_Climbi%C3%A9... http://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2013/nov/11/baby-p-legacy-impact-on-child-protection http://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2013/nov/11/b... Does that result in "over reactions" - depends on your point of view.
- grecy 12y ago
  I'm from Australia, have lived in the US, Ecuador, Argentina and now Canada. My sister lives in the UK. I've never seen anywhere else in the world that takes these issues as seriously (and insanely) as the US. In Australia it's extremely common to see young kids walking to school without an adult, playing in the park after school, etc. etc. Many young kids will walk to the corner shop to buy candy or whatever without supervision. Adults think nothing of this, it's perfectly normal. It's unthinkable someone would call the Police for this. EDIT: I should add, however, that it's highly illegal to leave a child in a car, due to the extreme heat. I've never seen it, but I expect people would call the Police or just break into a car if they saw this happening. It's taken so seriously, the punishment is actually the same for leaving an animal in the car as it is for leaving a child in the car.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- LukeB_UK 12y ago
  I'm from the UK and was born in 1990. I remember my parents leaving me in the car when I was younger, in all sorts of weather. Rain, snow, sun, whatever. I never really cared because they'd leave the radio on and I could play with whatever I'd taken with me. Nothing bad ever happened to me when they left me in the car I don't see any issue with people leaving their kids in the car, it just requires a little common sense. Also, comparing events where someone forgot their kid was in the car and leaving them all day to events where the parents consciously leave their kids and are aware of the conditions they've left them in (especially if they actually do something to help ensure the comfort of the child, like cracking the window) it's completely wrong. One is neglect, one is giving your kids a little freedom.
- yason 12y ago
  What happened in the article was just plain crazy. I'm from Finland and being five minutes somewhere outside the car -- nobody would blink an eye. But things would also escalate gradually, depending on the situation. People would gather and start looking at the clock, seeing how the baby is doing and how long he's been there. I'm sure there are laws you eventually do break if you leave your baby in the car for a long period of time (half an hour and up?), or in a hot parking lot and windows too closed. Somebody would call the authorities and the police/firemen would break the window and save the baby and stay waiting for the parent: this would certainly warrant at least hectic reporting. The social workers would probably be notified and there would be a couple of meetings to figure out what's the deal. But somebody being away for a few minutes... No way it would ever be a criminal case or brought to the judge or courts. While Finland does love rules and regulations more than sanefully necessary, you still have to mess up pretty bad to actually get charged for anything.
- rasz_pl 12y ago
  its natural selection
- rmetzler 12y ago
  As a German and father of a 22 month old child, I can't understand how unbelievable dumb this story is. I couldn't even finish reading it, because all this stuff is so cringeworthy. While I understand that bad things can happen if you leave a child for a long time alone in a car, I can't understand the bystander was calling the police but couldn't open his mouth to actually say anything to the mom. And how come somebody is criminalized when there was no victim at all? Also, while I understand children loves their electronics, please try to read a book to your kids once in a while.
- rbehrends 12y ago
  Relevant German case law assumes that children are NOT under constant, uninterrupted supervision. Children being able to do things at least somewhat independently is considered important for developing self-reliance [1] and can override the parents' legal duty to supervise them; barring unusual circumstances, watching your child constantly is considered undesirable for the child's development. For example, it is considered more important for six year olds to walk to school on their own than for parents to provide supervision during that time (barring exceptional circumstances, such as a disability). Checking on your four-year old son every 15-30 minutes is generally sufficient (modulo the circumstances and the child's maturity). [1] Which is not to say that helicopter parenting isn't on the rise in Germany, too. The difference is that the police and teachers ask that parents NOT drive their children to school or pick them up afterwards, and some parents do it anyway.
- diziet 12y ago
  I commuted by public transportation for about 5~ miles each day before and after school from the age of 9 (in Ukraine). From 11 on I commuted about 5~ miles each way to school in New York City. At 8, I would often walk for miles in the wilderness when out camping, or go swimming in a river without serious adult supervision.
- sergiotapia 12y ago
  Bolivia here - I've NEVER in my 14 years living here in two different departments (states) seen a child left alone in a car. It's just unheard of. And we don't even get that much heat or cold either. The risk is someone can break your window and steal your kid. It's just something that's never done. It would be akin to leaving your child on the street corner while you go up to your apartment to grab the purse you forgot.
petercooper 12y ago
he had agreed not to pursue the charge if, over the course of nine months, I completed 100 hours of community service and attended parenting education Superbly written, but the underlying story and outcome disturbs me. That someone is dissuaded from presenting a fair case because a court is considered to be bad at its job and taking a revenge-not-justice punishment is the best option serves as a serious indictment of 'justice' in whatever loony tunes jurisdiction she lives. Judicial systems are meant to apply laws contextually based on actual facts, not condemn anyone who falls into a gray area.
- angersock 12y ago
  Judicial systems are meant to apply laws contextually based on actual facts, not condemn anyone who falls into a gray area. But that's hard, and maybe unfair, and it barely scales. EDIT: Somewhat more productively, one wonders if this is a side effect of there being simply so many ways to get pulled into court--parking citation, drug possession, etc. I could understand if we took a more bureaucratic approach simply to keep up with the "demand".
chazandchaz 12y ago
Is this story fiction? The last line of the article reads: "Kim Brooks' fiction has appeared in Five Chapters, Glimmer Train, One Story, Epoch, and other journals. A graduate of the Iowa Writers' Workshop, she teaches writing and is at work on a novel. You can follow her on Twitter @KA_Brooks."
- snorrah 12y ago
  I think that's just pointing out her actual occupation, rather than suggesting the story is fictional.
shasta 12y ago
> It was a temporary lapse in judgment. Leaving your child in a car for five minutes is definitely a lapse in judgment. Not because it's dangerous so much as because your peers are stupid. I remember a time where I was really tempted to leave my kid in the car. He was asleep. It was a nice cool day. I was going to be gone for much less than five minutes. I was going to be able to see the car the entire time. Nope. Better safe than sensible.
- SeanDav 12y ago
  Except it is not safe to remove your kid from the car - that carries risks of its own. There is no safe option - as the article clearly points out. In any case - if you wanted to make the safe decision, why did you put your kid in the car in the first place? Don't you realize how dangerous it is to drive on the roads? Ask yourself - which is safer - Your child spending 5 minutes alone in a car with a window cracked open on a cool day - or 5 minutes driving to that place, with oncoming traffic that with the slightest lapse of attention by a driver could have their car crashing into yours in a second. This is the madness of this whole situation - people have left common sense at the door.
  - notdonspaulding 12y ago
    I think you missed the parent commenter's point that the reason they took their kid with them had nothing to do with the actual risk to their child (which they determined to be low), but everything to do with the likelihood of having to deal with other parents in a highly-litigious society (which they determined to be much higher).
    - SeanDav 12y ago
      Agreed - I saw a later comment by the poster which shows I misinterpreted the comment. My original point still stands though, just not applicable to the poster.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
sadris 12y ago
Another example of why you should never talk to the cops. When they come to ask, "Did you or your wife leave your child in the car?" Only acceptable response is: come back with a warrant.
- steve-howard 12y ago
  They already had evidence of the facts at hand, if not evidence of wrongdoing. > a bystander had noticed me leaving my son in the car, had recorded the incident using a phone’s camera, and had then contacted the police.
  - wvenable 12y ago
    Fortunately the car the registered with grandparents -- unfortunately, they talked.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Not really, because that would almost certainly have resulted in the mother being arrested and all the children being taken into protective custody. The police already had evidence of the child being left alone in the car in the form of a photograph. In a situation where someone acts evasively they're going to assume the worst. Think of those cases where children die or are found in situations of truly dreadful neglect and the local captain of police has to grovel in public while trying to answer questions about why they didn't follow up on reports of the situation. I had to deal with the police earlier this week because my dog accidentally bit someone who interfered with him, resulting in a (thankfully superficial) injury. I answered their questions forthrightly and we emailed some paperwork back and forth, which is why he's now confined to my yard for the next 7 days instead of being locked in a crate at the city pound. Overzealous policing is a real problem. That doesn't mean that evasion or passive-aggressive confrontation is always an effective response.
mcphilip 12y ago
While it's tough to criticize the decision to leave a child in the car for a few minutes -- happened to me all the time as a child -- I'm forever scarred by seeing a dead child pulled out of a car in the office complex next to mine [1]. The dad was bashing his head against a tree trying to knock himself unconscious because he was so overcome with grief. Officers were trying to restrain him when his wife showed up and went completely (understandably) histerical, pounded her fist on the ground and screaming at her husband. I can't fathom how one could begin to process and move on from such an incident. So while I don't think it should be illegal to leave a child in the car, personally that's a line I'll not cross with my kids. [1]http://www.khou.com/news/Baby-left-in-hot-truck-dies-in-Austin-122663114.html http://www.khou.com/news/Baby-left-in-hot-truck-dies-in-Aust...
- jbellis 12y ago
  The very big difference is that child-bakes-in-the-car heat deaths are not because Dad left the kids in the car while he ran in to the store for a few minutes, but because Dad forgot the kid was in the car at all. http://www.parenting.com/article/tragedy-in-the-backseat-hot-car-deaths?cid=plusblog http://www.parenting.com/article/tragedy-in-the-backseat-hot...
  - DanBC 12y ago
    Parent runs into store for few minutes, trips and knocks head becoming unconcious / has stroke / has heart attack / etc etc - child dies. Having said that, This story is a really good example of how tough it is for some parents and how hostile society is to parenting.
    - baddox 12y ago
      If the father became unconscious, had a stroke or a heart attack, etc. while driving or doing anything with the child away from other people, the child could die.
      - anigbrowl 12y ago
lt 12y ago
Wonder how they would react if they saw swedish babies napping outside in sub-zero temperatures: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988
- lsaferite 12y ago
  I didn't go over well. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/15/us-restaurant-baby-idUSTRE77E62O20110815 http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/15/us-restaurant-baby...
sliverstorm 12y ago
Good lord, how can this be a crime? Leaving my puppy alone in the car for a minute or three here or there (under reasonable circumstances of course) has been a productive part of developing his confidence in himself, his ability to be alone, and his ability to be calm. I'm not a parent, but I expect basics like this apply to kids too- how can they grow up to be well-adjusted adults if they must be supervised at all times?
- interpares 12y ago
  >how can they grow up to be well-adjusted adults if they must be supervised at all times Sad answer is they can't. What a society we're building for ourselves.
encoderer 12y ago
I once left my puppy beagle in the back of my car, windows cracked, while I ran into the restaurant to pick up takeout. I was not in there more than 5 mins. When I got out, started to pull away, and was stopped by a cop who then called animal services. This level of nanny-state-ism drives me slightly crazy. But the real issue for me was the person who decided s/he needed to call the police (the police for this). If it were me, I would probably sit and wait on a bench nearby, keeping an eye out. It's true that the dog was barking like crazy but he's a dog (a beagle at that), and dogs bark. I'd watch and if he showed signs of distress, I'd act. Or, if it turned into 20, 30 mins, then probably I would also react. But the person who comes across a situation and instantly goes to "call the police" is not something I understand. I think maybe we all know the type who just likes to report things. Who likes that power trip. I can't help but feel we'd maybe be better off if those types learned to be more circumspect in their actions. (In the end i paid my $35 fee and told the cop and animal control that I thought what they were doing was a total farce.)
- joeframbach 12y ago
  I once called animal control when I saw a dog in a car, in a hot parking lot. This dog was barking and running around the car. I waited in my car's A/C for 5 minutes before calling, just to be sure I wasn't overreacting. When I got through to animal control, I was told that the dog was not in distress. A dog in distress would retreat to a cooler spot of the car (near the passenger side floor) and not jump around barking. That your dog was barking and moving around, it was not in distress.
  - Nogwater 12y ago
    Apparently it's hard to tell the difference if you're untrained. Seems like calling for help if you are concerned about the safety of a dog or kid is reasonable, even if it means you could be wrong.
    - harimau 12y ago
      It's also up to the police whether to take it any further. Once they arrive, and hopefully the owner arrives, explain yourself (you were acting in good faith, etc.) and try and make sure the police don't go overboard.
imgabe 12y ago
This is just so patently absurd. The legal issue seems to revolve around "rendering the child in need of services". A child alone in a car for 5 minutes on a mild day is not in need of services. The case should be thrown out right there.
- anigbrowl 12y ago
  Well police investigations aren't free to the taxpayer.
  - harimau 12y ago
    She didn't mention it, but nothing is really 'free' about this. With court costs, lawyers, time spent doing community service, and other miscellaneous stuff I wonder how much it cost her total. Not to mention a year or so of stress worrying about it and the obvious lingering effects of the decision. A large portion of people most likely would not have been able to round up the resources she did nor have the support and get screwed by this type of stuff. It's good that she's bringing the subject to light but, being a seemingly local law, and one that you might not know about until it's being thrown at you, it seems more likely it will continue to harm parents just getting by.
noonespecial 12y ago
It wasn't so long ago that the "bystander" would simply watch the child for a minute out of common courtesy for the mother. If it looked like it was getting out of hand, then perhaps intervention of some sort might cross their mind. We've become a nation of "I'm Teelllllling..." suitable for nobody but a playground full of 5 year olds. In my opinion, the actions of this "good samaritan" were not motivated from concern or helpfulness. Just like on the playground this action was malicious. A subtle kind of violence.
- drblast 12y ago
  Right! If the intention were to protect the child, and the child were in actual danger, the bystander would be right there next to the car in case anything went wrong. If anything, the bystander should be prosecuted for the same crime.
  - Gravityloss 12y ago
    But, if you did something, you'd then be prosecuted for some other crime. Soon you're probably being arrested for breathing from the wrong nostril.
    - noonespecial 12y ago
      Soon it will just factor out to "you can be arrested at any time". The reason will be unimportant, or rather, will revert to the mean of "didn't like something about you".
ryandrake 12y ago
I don't now if it's an American thing or maybe a Western thing, but for whatever reason, voters and elected officials seem to be able to effortlessly make that huge leap from "It's sensible to do ABC" and "It should be required by law to do ABC, under penalty of fines and/or jail". We over-legislate things like public safety, and then rely on the court bureaucracy to apply sensibility and lenience on a case-by-case basis. See Also: Three felonies a day EDIT: Spelling
- kevinnk 12y ago
  How can you say it's a Western thing when places like Singapore have fines for not flushing the toilet?
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    1) Fines aren't criminal offenses 2) I suspect that there are more valid reasons to leave a child in a car, compared to reasons to not flush. That said, the consequences are greater in the case of potential child neglect.
nostromo 12y ago
I'm willing to bet that having a pool in your yard is much more dangerous for your child than leaving them in a car with windows cracked for 5 minutes. Media drives government. Clicks drive the media. What we're left with is a hodgepodge of laws that attempt to prevent yesterday's headline.
- Pxtl 12y ago
  iirc, drowning is the #2 preventable cause of death in kids, after car accidents.
  - Fuzzwah 12y ago
    As a 1st time Dad of a 4 month old I figured I should find this list. This pdf has it broken down into age groups: http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_Deaths_2010-a.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_D... This site was helpful and included an interesting little side bar: http://www.cdc.gov/safechild/NAP/overviews/ http://www.cdc.gov/safechild/NAP/overviews/ - Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of injury death overall, and especially for teens. - For infants, suffocation is the biggest risk of injury death. - Drowning is the leading cause of injury death for children age 1-4.
- notdonspaulding 12y ago
  > ... a hodgepodge of laws that attempt to prevent yesterday's headline. Oooh, nice, I'm going to steal that line. Relatedly, I think the person I'd be happiest to vote for in this day and age is someone who will introduce no new legislation, but just spend their time getting old pointless laws off the books. Think of it as an extension of "The best code you will ever write is… code you never write." I think more software engineers need to run for office.
moron4hire 12y ago
"He glanced up at me, his eyes alight with what I’d come to recognize as a sort of pre-tantrum agitation. “No, no, no, no, no! I don’t want to go in,” he repeated, and turned back to his game." That's where you failed. Clearly, there was a pattern of negligent parenting.
- scrumper 12y ago
  Are you being serious with that comment? I can't see how it's a joke. I strongly suspect you'll end up being downvoted into transparency, but in case not, where is the 'pattern'? Where, in fact, is even another example of negligence (conceding that some people may consider leaving the child in the car negligent, which I don't.) EDIT: Ah, it happened while I was replying, probably for the best.
  - notdonspaulding 12y ago
    I understand where you're coming from here, but to parents who actually do have spines (and seek to grow such spines in their children), it is actually fairly easy to see that the reason the 4-year-old was left in the car was due the fact that he was running both the conversation and the decision-making that occurred throughout the incident. Which is to say, I can see the GP making the general point that the mom didn't have a "temporary lapse in judgement" as much as a systemic failure to live up to her role as the adult in the parent->child relationship. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing the mother is negligent for either this or leaving the kid in the car. I'm just saying when you can recognize that your child will throw a tantrum and your only recourse is to begin making concessions to them, you're already at a point where they are raising you more than you are raising them.
    - aidenn0 12y ago
      A good point. In a parenting class I went to recently, they showed the standard classical conditioning diagram, and then said roughly: "Now, while we know that there is more to human behavior than this box represents, it does describe a lot of it, and remember, that's not just your child, but you as well."
awda 12y ago
30-40 a year, mostly from suffocation sounds almost negligible. It seems fine if you crack the window and they know how to get out.
- tptacek 12y ago
  With a four year old, the prospect that they might get out of the car is one of the bigger worries you should have. A four year old walking alone through a parking lot is incredibly dangerous.
  - awda 12y ago
    Probably something I should learn more about if I ever have a four year-old.
rsync 12y ago
As a sanity check, here is the law in California (which, I assume, is relatively restrictive, since it's California...): It is illegal to leave a 6 years old or younger unattended in a motor vehicle when: There are conditions that present a significant risk to the child's health or safety. Example: Leaving a child in a closed car on a very hot day. The vehicle's engine is running, the keys are in the ignition, or both. Children can start or move the car causing injuries and/or deaths to themselves or others. An opportunist may (and many have) seize the moment to jump in and drive your car away, child still strapped in.[1] So ... as long as there's nothing unsafe and the engine isn't running, you're "legal". [1] http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/safety-laws.php http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/safety-laws.php
- darklajid 12y ago
  Well, the article states that it wasn't illegal wherever that took place either. Somehow 'not illegal' is considered 'a grey area' though.. Which makes it even scarier. Excerpt for the people that just see your comment below (I = mother, He = lawyer): “I don’t get it,” I said to the lawyer. “Contributing to the delinquency of a minor? That makes no sense. It sounds like I was buying him beer.” He laughed. He told me he understood my confusion about the charge, but that it wasn’t that unusual. A few years before, the state had tried to pass an ordinance that would make it a misdemeanor to leave a child under 6 alone in a vehicle if the conditions within the vehicle or in the immediate vicinity of the vehicle presented a risk to the health or safety of the child. The penalty for a first offense would be a $100 civil penalty, in other words, a ticket. But the legislation didn’t pass, and so instead, the act of leaving a kid in a car would continue to fall into a legal gray area. The lawyer explained that the crime of contributing to the delinquency of a minor included “rendering a minor in need of services.” So, for example, he said, “If you’d left him there and not come back, someone from social services would have needed to come, bring him in, make sure he was safe and such.”
  - grecy 12y ago
    > Well, the article states that it wasn't illegal wherever that took place either. Somehow 'not illegal' is considered 'a grey area' though It's my observation that anything that is "not illegal" in the US now means "We'll find a creative way to stop you doing it".
mikestew 12y ago
The U. S. has long been a country of busy-bodies (the Puritans weren't known for keeping their noses out of the business of others), and the example of this story demonstrates that cellphone cameras make it easier to share your nosiness without that uncomfortable confrontation of the past. Before you go off to pull out those "child cooks in car in Texas in July" anecdotes, consider that motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for children. So if we're collectively that worried about it, let's get up in arms about needlessly taking the child on a car trip before we worry about applying "justice" to someone who left their child in a car in 50F weather. If it were truly a case of "good samaritan" I'd blow it off. But I'm going to guess it was more a case of "she's doing something I think is awful. Regardless of whether harm was done or not, I'm going to go tattle!"
IanDrake 12y ago
Seriously, this is my number one reason for not having kids. For the younger crowd who may not understand, I was born in '77: - I rode in the back hatch (no seats) of my dad's corvette until I was 8, cops would wave to us. - At 6 I could ride my bike around pretty much anywhere I wanted, but wasn't allowed to cross rt6 (which I didn't, though no one checked). - Left in the car in parking lots for up to an hour. - Arrived home from school with no one home starting in 1st grade.
- claar 12y ago
  Yep, I can relate. I was born in '78 and grew up on a farm. Please, have kids and raise them reasonably according to your own standards, not the nanny-state's. If we don't defend personal freedom, who will?
- tptacek 12y ago
  Putting children in the seatless back hatch of a Corvette was probably not a great parenting call either. Not everything that used to be S.O.P. for parents was good judgement. Not every safety concern we've developed over the last 20 years is wrong. Some of them are very valid.
  - mentat 12y ago
    Risk minimization as an overriding strategy is fundamentally flawed as it is never complete. It also appears that people are really bad at understanding the costs for very small benefits.
  - awj 12y ago
    Yeah, people also survived when we put lead paint on everything. Evaluate the issue on its actual merits and relevant statistics, not wether or not you personally won the "take an unnecessary risk" dice roll.
- Pxtl 12y ago
  For the record, even today with our safety obsessed culture? Car accidents are still the leading preventable cause of death in children (non-preventable things like birth-defects and complications from childbirth itself are the only things that rank higher). Cars are what kills kids, even now in our hyper-safe society. So it's worth re-examining that stuff. Which means the thing with the Corvette? Probably wasn't a good idea in hindsight. But yeah, the total lack of independence in today's kids is a different story. There is no epidemic of kiddy diddlers, of kids wandering off and getting lost and somehow dying. So the obsessive "have your kids with you at all times" thing is probably a modern over-reaction. But the stuff about cars? Yeah, respect and fear traffic.
claar 12y ago
I hope the reason that this story is popular is that we as a society agree it's absurd. Leaving a child in a locked car in the situation described is perfectly acceptable. The police getting involved is ridiculous, which makes it a great story. Hopefully the correct lesson is learned.
jack-r-abbit 12y ago
My dad used to drag us around in the snow behind his truck as we laid on an upside down car hood tethered to the truck with a rope. It was a prefect 3-person toboggan. That was in the 70s. No one cared. Just this week a woman got media blasted for having her infant pulled down the church aisle on her wedding dress train. Now I find that a bit tacky as far as weddings go but I can't imagine that child was in any more danger than I was while speeding down a dirt road on an overturned hood. Times have changed.
bpackard 12y ago
Imagine what would have happened if she stood firm, and brought little Simon NoNo into the store. He proceeds to throw a fit, and then [gasp!] she threatens to, or even does, spank him in the butt. She'd have likely been arrested and missed the flight home.
jaimebuelta 12y ago
All this seems crazy... It seems like we are not able to understand some risks and gave up directly to irrational fears... In particular anything related to kids. I respect people with irrational fears, and understand that sometimes happen. For example fear or flying. But we seem to accept that just because someone has that kind of fear is ok to act like that fear was a real danger. As the article said, driving is, comparatively, a huge risk compared with things like kid abductions or terrorist attacks. We seem not to give a dam to drive four hours a day, but be scared to death if we cross someone on a dark street... We are simply terrible evaluating risks, and be more fearful each day...
jaimebuelta 12y ago
All this seems crazy... It seems like we are not able to understand some risks and gave up directly to irrational fears... In particular anything related to kids. I respect people with irrational fears, and understand that sometimes happen. For example fear or flying. But we seem to accept that just because someone has that kind of fear is ok to act like that fear was a real danger. As the article said, driving is, comparatively, a huge risk compared with things like kid abductions or terrorist attacks. We seem not to give a dam to drive four hours a day, but be scared to death if we cross someone on a dark street... We are simply terrible evaluating risks, and be more fearful each day...
tptacek 12y ago
I've flagged down a cop seeing a kid alone in a car, and would do it again. Should people who leave their toddlers in cars be prosecuted criminally? That's a complicated question. In almost every reasonable case the answer is probably "no". But this article doesn't really grapple with that question. Instead, it's a stew of rationalization and misdirection. It is literally an argument for leaving kids alone in cars. "I immunize my kids. I know pools are dangerous." Yeah, and you left a four year old alone in a parked car. You brought it up. BAD CALL. "This other parent let their nine-year-old ride the subway by themselves." Well, I think that's a bad call too, but who cares? Nine isn't four, the subway isn't a parked car. "And then I left him in the car for about five minutes. He didn’t die. He wasn’t kidnapped or assaulted or forgotten or dragged across state lines by a carjacker. When I returned to the car, he was still playing his game, smiling." Asshole. The risks to a four year old child left alone in a parked car aren't that the boogeyman might steal them. If you want to read a piece that seriously grapples with this issue, read Gene Weingarten's "Fatal Distraction" from the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022701549.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02...
- imgabe 12y ago
  What, exactly, are the risks to a child in a locked car on a cool day for five minutes?
  - tptacek 12y ago
    My thoughts immediately go to "that they will get hit by a car when they figure out how to get out".
    - imgabe 12y ago
      The article states that the car had child locks, which were used, so the doors could only be opened from the outside. Furthermore, the kid specifically wanted to go on the trip in the first place so he could sit in the car and play with the iPad, which he was happily doing. It's not impossible that in the space of five minutes the kid could get bored of the iPad, unbuckle the car seat, and figure out how to disable the child locks from inside the car. It's just very, very unlikely. If that's what had happened there would be a case for getting the police involved, but it didn't happen. If we're going start prosecuting people for every crime they could hypothetically commit at any given point, every single person would be in jail.
fixermark 12y ago
I remember when my mom left me in the car to run into the grocery store one summer. I put the seat back and dozed with my head resting against the partially-slackened seatbelt. It was a hot day with the sun shining right in the windshield. It felt nice and sauna-like, so I closed my eyes for a bit... My mother got pretty upset when she came back and found me in that state. She told me that's how people manage to die in the car, and when I realized how hot it was I should have popped the door open and come inside. And, well, she was right! :)
krupan 12y ago
Wow, what a story for a parent to read. Lenore Skenazy and her discussion of the various risks we take as parents is awesome. Also, read Parenting with Love and Logic. Makes the argument that over-protecting your kids is denying them important learning opportunities. Mind blowing at first, but then when you think about it (and remember your own largely unsupervised childhood) it makes a lot of sense.
balor123 12y ago
I was leaving daycare a few weeks ago and saw someone do the same. She left one kid in the car while she went inside to pick up the other one, in Texas. At least it was in front of a daycare center during pickup time, where people would likely notice. Still, a number of things can delay you inside or in the worst case, if you have a freak accident then it could easily be the end of the kid too.
peterwwillis 12y ago
> I got out of the car one day to feed the parking meter next to the driver side window. “Don’t, Mommy. Don’t. The police will come.” I went to let the dog into our front yard while he was watching his morning cartoon. “Mommy, no!!! The police.” Sigh..... It's such a tragic, fucked up thing that our society could do this to a child and his mother. We all really need to think more about the consequences of our actions. The bystander who called in should have done more than just call the police. The mother should have brought the kid in. The cop(s) shouldn't have let it get to court. The courts shouldn't be able to split apart families for a single, momentary, stupid, virtually riskless act. And the media needs to not villify and capitalize on the fear and hate of people who judge situations like this without context.
- aidenn0 12y ago
  To be fair, all we know is that prosecutors can threaten to split families apart for a single, momentary stupid, virtually riskless act. The mother agreed to a plea-bargain because she didn't want to find out if they actually could.
headgasket 12y ago
At this rate HomeAlone(1,2,3) will soon have to be reclassified as R rated horror by the MPAA!
janitor61 12y ago
If you had put the kid in the trunk, nobody would of ever called.
Osiris 12y ago
I, personally, don't believe that children should ever be left alone in a car, but I'm not sure where the legal line should be drawn. On one extreme, it would only be criminal if a child dies under your care, which would be criminally negligent homicide or something similar. On the other, we can't run in to drop a movie off at RedBox without getting 3 kids out of the car. I wish people in positions of authority were able to apply more common sense and wisdom than always involving the criminal justice system. My wife knows a lady that does (unlicensed) day care, and she leaves kids in the car all the time. She just tells them to hide so no one sees them. As far as I know, none have been injured, but it's also pretty irresponsible and I wouldn't allow her to watch my child.
- greedo 12y ago
  Unfortunately, people in positions of authority have no incentive to apply wisdom and common sense. Imagine if they ignore this report, and something bad happened to the child? They'd be crucified. It's far easier to take the report, do the minimal amount of investigation required by policy, and then let a prosecutor apply their discretion as to whether charges are pressed. The same perverse incentives apply to the prosecutor as well. It's no skin off his back to charge the mother, and he can always say "it's for the children!" if queried about it. But should a child die, when both the police and prosecutor could have done something, is something our society won't allow.
agorism 12y ago
As if Child Protective Service has anything to do with protecting children. Orphans are very profitable. Charging people with crimes is how police, judges, and prison guards get paid.
- aidenn0 12y ago
  I'm not even sure where to begin responding to this. 1) CPS wasn't ever involved in this case 2) Everywhere I've ever lived CPS was already understaffed and overworked; they don't have time to go looking for children to take away, they're busy enough already.
tdiggity 12y ago
Is it ok if my car can keep the AC running (engine off) while my kid is in the car? I'd probably get arrested for the possibility that the car could get too cold...
rudedogg 12y ago
"What Would You Do?" on ABC had a scenario about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSveKV8Tk3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSveKV8Tk3s

108 points by klunger 12y ago

nkurz 12y ago

I'd be interested in hearing non-US perspectives on this. Is it acceptable elsewhere to leave your small child alone in the car for 5 minutes while you get something from a store? Would you fear for the child's safety, of legal action, or neither? Is the US leading the way criminalizing parents who do such things, or are there other countries that have been doing this for years?

friendly_chap 12y ago
I find this pretty crazy. Going with a really contrived example, using the same logic, we could make it illegal to step next to your children because you could potentially break their skull with your elbow. Way too many ifs. However, the goal itself, namely protecting children is noble. I guess hitting the sweet spot between being neglective and overly protective is hard. Such is the nature of most social issues.
jason_slack 12y ago
Yes, I would love to hear about this too. I once left my son in the car for literally 2 mins while he was sleeping to buy a soda in a gas station. I am in the US.
GuiA 12y ago
Grew up in France in the 90s, in a small upper middle class town. My mother definitely left me alone in the car while she was running errands many, many times (which I liked because it meant I could just read my book, which is all I cared about as a kid). My parents also let me walk back and forth to the library (half a mile or so away) on my own fairly early on. When we lived in the US for 2 years (pre 9/11), my parents definitely experienced a few police-state-related cultural shocks. One time, a kid started hitting me in the school bus. It turned out that the kid lived in the same apartment complex as we did. That evening, my dad saw him playing outside, went up to him, and gave him a few stern words. A few hours later, his mother had called the police, and my dad ended up spending a few hours at the local police station. We still lived in the US for another year or so after that, but nowadays my parents heavily dislike this country, and tend to avoid visiting me as much they can. FTR I don't see myself staying in the US when I start having kids.
- tptacek 12y ago
  One of your stated reasons for leaving the US when you have kids is that the US is hostile to adults assaulting children? Because that's the circumstance you described with your father and the kid from school.
  - cpach 12y ago
    Um, what? scolding != assaulting, no? But of course it might have been better if the kids’ parents took up the matter between them.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      I chose my words carefully. When an adult confronts a child and terrifies them verbally, that is assault. That's not my opinion; that's the law. Because it is so easy for an adult to create a credible fear of violence in a child, it is very poor judgement for adults to directly confront children.
      - shintakezou 12y ago
        And the fact you see assault, and a law teaches you that it is so, instead of just scolding, is a cultural bias (sort of) and a point in favor of not living in US - or similar countries - for anyone born and grown up where these deceptive concepts are absent and hopefully not carved in a law. Once common sense would have been enough: do you scolded my child? Why? What's happened? ... Ha, ok, my son did something wrong... and so on... Usually it's not that hard. Instead, a society rambling towards paranoia and driven by fear (especially this), makes a citizen feel the urge to "look at" a greater power, the Great Protector, to "protect" him/her even from an unexistant menace - or to seek revenge. In the story we are commenting, the first thing I have noticed and blamed was the following: the mother surrenders to the request of the son who wants to go with her to the store. There, she makes the first mistake: the son had to stay at home with the grandma.
  - GuiA 12y ago
    `tptacek, I'm not sure you'll ever see this, but I'll reply to your point anyways: As `shintakezou pointed out, this is very much a cultural matter here. France (where my parents and I are from) tends to subscribe more to the "it takes a village to raise a child" mentality. Correcting the behavior of someone else's child at the park, supermarket, in the bus, etc. if they are out of the parent's sight is perfectly acceptable in French culture, and as a kid it happened to me many times, without traumatizing me (even when it was a scary old man yelling at me). It is not perceived as assault, and it is certainly not "terrifying them verbally" (I find that phrasing a little bit excessive though, and am surprised that you extracted that from my "a few stern words"). In retrospect, the one thing my father did wrong was not considering that he was living in a different culture, and that something that seemed normal to him might be scandalous in the US. But that only makes my wish to leave the US when I have children even more valid in my eyes: I'd hate to find myself in those sort of cultural misunderstandings that can very easily escalate juridically. I do find the US's approach to parenting very poor: France's approach to parenting is that kids are human beings in construction, and that they do not inherently know what is right or wrong, good or bad - and it is up to adults (parents or not) to let them know (that doesn't mean that their feelings or interests are invalid because they are "incomplete": it just means that they are lacking the knowledge of social mores, conventions, mental tools, etc. required to be productive citizens). The US's approach to parenting falls more in line with the belief that children are just "little adults" and that one should respect their wishes and desires no matter what, which I find preposterous.
Fizzadar 12y ago
When I got to the bit about being arrested I was completely baffled... there's a law against this? I'm from the UK and as a child was left in the car for short periods, which is almost certainly commonplace. I'm simply stunned that parents can be prosecuted for this. Another wtf America moment.
- mcherm 12y ago
  Actually, as the article explained there is NOT a law against leaving your kids in the car. Such a law was proposed and the legislature refused to pass it. Instead, the prosecutor decided to charge her with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" which is a broad catch-all category for doing things that might harm a child. She was not found guilty of this crime either. Instead, her lawyer advised her to agree to punishment for the crime because if it went to trial there was a CHANCE that she would lose custody of her children. The problem here is not in the law nor in the outcome of a court case. The problem lies in the structure of the legal system. Prosecutors wield enormous power by virtue of their ability to decide whom to charge and for what. The penalties for losing are so great that nearly all (around 95%) cases are settled rather than contested before a judge or jury.
- fps 12y ago
  There's no specific law against it in the majority of US states (http://www.kidsandcars.org/state-laws.html http://www.kidsandcars.org/state-laws.html) The laws against leaving a child alone in a car are stricter than leaving them home alone (http://www.imom.com/parenting/tikes/parenting/safety/home-alone-rules-by-state/ http://www.imom.com/parenting/tikes/parenting/safety/home-al...) because children dying of heat stroke in cars has made headlines in the past 20 years. Many laws in the US are purposely vague and up to the interpretation of the police. The mother was charged with "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Contributing+to+the+Delinquency+of+a+Minor http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Contributing+t...), which can be used against anyone that does something that might possibly result in a child being adversely affected in some way. The unfortunate part of life in the US is that the average person breaks a few dozen laws every day, and it's really important not to upset the police in some way that they'll take notice of you and start charging you with crimes.
sampo 12y ago
> I'd be interested in hearing non-US perspectives on this. Finland here. Some people would leave a child in a car when they conduct a short errand, and some people would not, and the latter might frown upon the former. But the law enforcement would never ever get involved. That Salon article is just absurd. A whole new level of American weirdness. (Then again, we rarely have weather as hot as the more southern countries.)
- valarauca1 12y ago
  I don't exactly mean to question this, but in Finland is it common for the inside of cars to reach 40-50C within an hour during the summer?
  - sluukkonen 12y ago
    During the hottest days of the summer (it very rarely goes above 28C or so - average maximum temperature is around 22C during the hottest summer months in southern Finland), yes, but not that often.
  - yason 12y ago
    Less than an hour, I'd say. A warm summer day can easily be 25-30C, typically 20-25C. That's enough to go to 50C in an hour, windows closed, even on a half-cloudy day.
t0mas88 12y ago
In the Netherlands I would not expect any legal consequences or police involvement over leaving a kid in a car in the way described in the article (e.g. window open and only for a few minutes).
- w0utert 12y ago
  Second that, I can hardly believe this story is for real. When I grew up my parents left me (and my brother and sister) alone in the car all the time. Never for more than a few minutes obviously, but otherwise it was perfectly normal. They also let us cycle to school, play outside without being monitored all the time, roam around the woods, whatever. It was the same with all my friends. Surprisingly, everyone turned out just fine, and I've never heard of a single (near) fatal incident caused by this kind of negligence around me. I think I vaguely remember a baby died in a car in The Netherlands a few years ago though. You have to wonder what kind of parenting leads to forgetting you left your baby in the car though, and how long it would take for some other serious incident to occur if you're so absent minded. That said, anyone has a right to disagree whether leaving your kid in the car when you have to stop at the store is acceptable, but prosecuting a parent for it is downright insane.
DanBC 12y ago
On a slight tangent: Baby sitting. Some people in the UK take an extreme view on age of baby sitters. See this BBC article (in my parenting SE answer) about a woman leaving her 14 year old son in charge of a 3 year old boy for 30 minutes and the trouble that caused. (She should not have accepted the caution. I am surprised that's what the solicitor suggested, and I'm not sure she actually got a solicitor.) http://parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/12599/what-is-considered-to-be-a-safe-age-to-be-a-babysitter/12604#12604 http://parenting.stackexchange.com/questions/12599/what-is-c...
robaato 12y ago
In the UK things have changed and so parents need to be careful. Various high profile cases have resulted in changes to both social services and police processing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Victoria_Climbi%C3%A9#Child_protection_changes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Victoria_Climbi%C3%A9... http://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2013/nov/11/baby-p-legacy-impact-on-child-protection http://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2013/nov/11/b... Does that result in "over reactions" - depends on your point of view.
grecy 12y ago
I'm from Australia, have lived in the US, Ecuador, Argentina and now Canada. My sister lives in the UK. I've never seen anywhere else in the world that takes these issues as seriously (and insanely) as the US. In Australia it's extremely common to see young kids walking to school without an adult, playing in the park after school, etc. etc. Many young kids will walk to the corner shop to buy candy or whatever without supervision. Adults think nothing of this, it's perfectly normal. It's unthinkable someone would call the Police for this. EDIT: I should add, however, that it's highly illegal to leave a child in a car, due to the extreme heat. I've never seen it, but I expect people would call the Police or just break into a car if they saw this happening. It's taken so seriously, the punishment is actually the same for leaving an animal in the car as it is for leaving a child in the car.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
LukeB_UK 12y ago
I'm from the UK and was born in 1990. I remember my parents leaving me in the car when I was younger, in all sorts of weather. Rain, snow, sun, whatever. I never really cared because they'd leave the radio on and I could play with whatever I'd taken with me. Nothing bad ever happened to me when they left me in the car I don't see any issue with people leaving their kids in the car, it just requires a little common sense. Also, comparing events where someone forgot their kid was in the car and leaving them all day to events where the parents consciously leave their kids and are aware of the conditions they've left them in (especially if they actually do something to help ensure the comfort of the child, like cracking the window) it's completely wrong. One is neglect, one is giving your kids a little freedom.
yason 12y ago
What happened in the article was just plain crazy. I'm from Finland and being five minutes somewhere outside the car -- nobody would blink an eye. But things would also escalate gradually, depending on the situation. People would gather and start looking at the clock, seeing how the baby is doing and how long he's been there. I'm sure there are laws you eventually do break if you leave your baby in the car for a long period of time (half an hour and up?), or in a hot parking lot and windows too closed. Somebody would call the authorities and the police/firemen would break the window and save the baby and stay waiting for the parent: this would certainly warrant at least hectic reporting. The social workers would probably be notified and there would be a couple of meetings to figure out what's the deal. But somebody being away for a few minutes... No way it would ever be a criminal case or brought to the judge or courts. While Finland does love rules and regulations more than sanefully necessary, you still have to mess up pretty bad to actually get charged for anything.
rasz_pl 12y ago
its natural selection
rmetzler 12y ago
As a German and father of a 22 month old child, I can't understand how unbelievable dumb this story is. I couldn't even finish reading it, because all this stuff is so cringeworthy. While I understand that bad things can happen if you leave a child for a long time alone in a car, I can't understand the bystander was calling the police but couldn't open his mouth to actually say anything to the mom. And how come somebody is criminalized when there was no victim at all? Also, while I understand children loves their electronics, please try to read a book to your kids once in a while.
rbehrends 12y ago
Relevant German case law assumes that children are NOT under constant, uninterrupted supervision. Children being able to do things at least somewhat independently is considered important for developing self-reliance [1] and can override the parents' legal duty to supervise them; barring unusual circumstances, watching your child constantly is considered undesirable for the child's development. For example, it is considered more important for six year olds to walk to school on their own than for parents to provide supervision during that time (barring exceptional circumstances, such as a disability). Checking on your four-year old son every 15-30 minutes is generally sufficient (modulo the circumstances and the child's maturity). [1] Which is not to say that helicopter parenting isn't on the rise in Germany, too. The difference is that the police and teachers ask that parents NOT drive their children to school or pick them up afterwards, and some parents do it anyway.
diziet 12y ago
I commuted by public transportation for about 5~ miles each day before and after school from the age of 9 (in Ukraine). From 11 on I commuted about 5~ miles each way to school in New York City. At 8, I would often walk for miles in the wilderness when out camping, or go swimming in a river without serious adult supervision.
sergiotapia 12y ago
Bolivia here - I've NEVER in my 14 years living here in two different departments (states) seen a child left alone in a car. It's just unheard of. And we don't even get that much heat or cold either. The risk is someone can break your window and steal your kid. It's just something that's never done. It would be akin to leaving your child on the street corner while you go up to your apartment to grab the purse you forgot.

petercooper 12y ago

he had agreed not to pursue the charge if, over the course of nine months, I completed 100 hours of community service and attended parenting education Superbly written, but the underlying story and outcome disturbs me. That someone is dissuaded from presenting a fair case because a court is considered to be bad at its job and taking a revenge-not-justice punishment is the best option serves as a serious indictment of 'justice' in whatever loony tunes jurisdiction she lives. Judicial systems are meant to apply laws contextually based on actual facts, not condemn anyone who falls into a gray area.

angersock 12y ago
Judicial systems are meant to apply laws contextually based on actual facts, not condemn anyone who falls into a gray area. But that's hard, and maybe unfair, and it barely scales. EDIT: Somewhat more productively, one wonders if this is a side effect of there being simply so many ways to get pulled into court--parking citation, drug possession, etc. I could understand if we took a more bureaucratic approach simply to keep up with the "demand".

chazandchaz 12y ago

Is this story fiction? The last line of the article reads: "Kim Brooks' fiction has appeared in Five Chapters, Glimmer Train, One Story, Epoch, and other journals. A graduate of the Iowa Writers' Workshop, she teaches writing and is at work on a novel. You can follow her on Twitter @KA_Brooks."

snorrah 12y ago
I think that's just pointing out her actual occupation, rather than suggesting the story is fictional.

shasta 12y ago

> It was a temporary lapse in judgment. Leaving your child in a car for five minutes is definitely a lapse in judgment. Not because it's dangerous so much as because your peers are stupid. I remember a time where I was really tempted to leave my kid in the car. He was asleep. It was a nice cool day. I was going to be gone for much less than five minutes. I was going to be able to see the car the entire time. Nope. Better safe than sensible.

SeanDav 12y ago
Except it is not safe to remove your kid from the car - that carries risks of its own. There is no safe option - as the article clearly points out. In any case - if you wanted to make the safe decision, why did you put your kid in the car in the first place? Don't you realize how dangerous it is to drive on the roads? Ask yourself - which is safer - Your child spending 5 minutes alone in a car with a window cracked open on a cool day - or 5 minutes driving to that place, with oncoming traffic that with the slightest lapse of attention by a driver could have their car crashing into yours in a second. This is the madness of this whole situation - people have left common sense at the door.
- notdonspaulding 12y ago
  I think you missed the parent commenter's point that the reason they took their kid with them had nothing to do with the actual risk to their child (which they determined to be low), but everything to do with the likelihood of having to deal with other parents in a highly-litigious society (which they determined to be much higher).
  - SeanDav 12y ago
    Agreed - I saw a later comment by the poster which shows I misinterpreted the comment. My original point still stands though, just not applicable to the poster.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

sadris 12y ago

Another example of why you should never talk to the cops. When they come to ask, "Did you or your wife leave your child in the car?" Only acceptable response is: come back with a warrant.

steve-howard 12y ago
They already had evidence of the facts at hand, if not evidence of wrongdoing. > a bystander had noticed me leaving my son in the car, had recorded the incident using a phone’s camera, and had then contacted the police.
- wvenable 12y ago
  Fortunately the car the registered with grandparents -- unfortunately, they talked.
anigbrowl 12y ago
Not really, because that would almost certainly have resulted in the mother being arrested and all the children being taken into protective custody. The police already had evidence of the child being left alone in the car in the form of a photograph. In a situation where someone acts evasively they're going to assume the worst. Think of those cases where children die or are found in situations of truly dreadful neglect and the local captain of police has to grovel in public while trying to answer questions about why they didn't follow up on reports of the situation. I had to deal with the police earlier this week because my dog accidentally bit someone who interfered with him, resulting in a (thankfully superficial) injury. I answered their questions forthrightly and we emailed some paperwork back and forth, which is why he's now confined to my yard for the next 7 days instead of being locked in a crate at the city pound. Overzealous policing is a real problem. That doesn't mean that evasion or passive-aggressive confrontation is always an effective response.

mcphilip 12y ago

While it's tough to criticize the decision to leave a child in the car for a few minutes -- happened to me all the time as a child -- I'm forever scarred by seeing a dead child pulled out of a car in the office complex next to mine [1]. The dad was bashing his head against a tree trying to knock himself unconscious because he was so overcome with grief. Officers were trying to restrain him when his wife showed up and went completely (understandably) histerical, pounded her fist on the ground and screaming at her husband. I can't fathom how one could begin to process and move on from such an incident. So while I don't think it should be illegal to leave a child in the car, personally that's a line I'll not cross with my kids. [1]http://www.khou.com/news/Baby-left-in-hot-truck-dies-in-Austin-122663114.html http://www.khou.com/news/Baby-left-in-hot-truck-dies-in-Aust...

jbellis 12y ago
The very big difference is that child-bakes-in-the-car heat deaths are not because Dad left the kids in the car while he ran in to the store for a few minutes, but because Dad forgot the kid was in the car at all. http://www.parenting.com/article/tragedy-in-the-backseat-hot-car-deaths?cid=plusblog http://www.parenting.com/article/tragedy-in-the-backseat-hot...
- DanBC 12y ago
  Parent runs into store for few minutes, trips and knocks head becoming unconcious / has stroke / has heart attack / etc etc - child dies. Having said that, This story is a really good example of how tough it is for some parents and how hostile society is to parenting.
  - baddox 12y ago
    If the father became unconscious, had a stroke or a heart attack, etc. while driving or doing anything with the child away from other people, the child could die.
    - anigbrowl 12y ago

lt 12y ago

Wonder how they would react if they saw swedish babies napping outside in sub-zero temperatures: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21537988

lsaferite 12y ago
I didn't go over well. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/15/us-restaurant-baby-idUSTRE77E62O20110815 http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/15/us-restaurant-baby...

sliverstorm 12y ago

Good lord, how can this be a crime? Leaving my puppy alone in the car for a minute or three here or there (under reasonable circumstances of course) has been a productive part of developing his confidence in himself, his ability to be alone, and his ability to be calm. I'm not a parent, but I expect basics like this apply to kids too- how can they grow up to be well-adjusted adults if they must be supervised at all times?

interpares 12y ago
>how can they grow up to be well-adjusted adults if they must be supervised at all times Sad answer is they can't. What a society we're building for ourselves.

encoderer 12y ago

I once left my puppy beagle in the back of my car, windows cracked, while I ran into the restaurant to pick up takeout. I was not in there more than 5 mins. When I got out, started to pull away, and was stopped by a cop who then called animal services. This level of nanny-state-ism drives me slightly crazy. But the real issue for me was the person who decided s/he needed to call the police (the police for this). If it were me, I would probably sit and wait on a bench nearby, keeping an eye out. It's true that the dog was barking like crazy but he's a dog (a beagle at that), and dogs bark. I'd watch and if he showed signs of distress, I'd act. Or, if it turned into 20, 30 mins, then probably I would also react. But the person who comes across a situation and instantly goes to "call the police" is not something I understand. I think maybe we all know the type who just likes to report things. Who likes that power trip. I can't help but feel we'd maybe be better off if those types learned to be more circumspect in their actions. (In the end i paid my $35 fee and told the cop and animal control that I thought what they were doing was a total farce.)

joeframbach 12y ago
I once called animal control when I saw a dog in a car, in a hot parking lot. This dog was barking and running around the car. I waited in my car's A/C for 5 minutes before calling, just to be sure I wasn't overreacting. When I got through to animal control, I was told that the dog was not in distress. A dog in distress would retreat to a cooler spot of the car (near the passenger side floor) and not jump around barking. That your dog was barking and moving around, it was not in distress.
- Nogwater 12y ago
  Apparently it's hard to tell the difference if you're untrained. Seems like calling for help if you are concerned about the safety of a dog or kid is reasonable, even if it means you could be wrong.
  - harimau 12y ago
    It's also up to the police whether to take it any further. Once they arrive, and hopefully the owner arrives, explain yourself (you were acting in good faith, etc.) and try and make sure the police don't go overboard.

imgabe 12y ago

This is just so patently absurd. The legal issue seems to revolve around "rendering the child in need of services". A child alone in a car for 5 minutes on a mild day is not in need of services. The case should be thrown out right there.

anigbrowl 12y ago
Well police investigations aren't free to the taxpayer.
- harimau 12y ago
  She didn't mention it, but nothing is really 'free' about this. With court costs, lawyers, time spent doing community service, and other miscellaneous stuff I wonder how much it cost her total. Not to mention a year or so of stress worrying about it and the obvious lingering effects of the decision. A large portion of people most likely would not have been able to round up the resources she did nor have the support and get screwed by this type of stuff. It's good that she's bringing the subject to light but, being a seemingly local law, and one that you might not know about until it's being thrown at you, it seems more likely it will continue to harm parents just getting by.

noonespecial 12y ago

It wasn't so long ago that the "bystander" would simply watch the child for a minute out of common courtesy for the mother. If it looked like it was getting out of hand, then perhaps intervention of some sort might cross their mind. We've become a nation of "I'm Teelllllling..." suitable for nobody but a playground full of 5 year olds. In my opinion, the actions of this "good samaritan" were not motivated from concern or helpfulness. Just like on the playground this action was malicious. A subtle kind of violence.

drblast 12y ago
Right! If the intention were to protect the child, and the child were in actual danger, the bystander would be right there next to the car in case anything went wrong. If anything, the bystander should be prosecuted for the same crime.
- Gravityloss 12y ago
  But, if you did something, you'd then be prosecuted for some other crime. Soon you're probably being arrested for breathing from the wrong nostril.
  - noonespecial 12y ago
    Soon it will just factor out to "you can be arrested at any time". The reason will be unimportant, or rather, will revert to the mean of "didn't like something about you".

ryandrake 12y ago

I don't now if it's an American thing or maybe a Western thing, but for whatever reason, voters and elected officials seem to be able to effortlessly make that huge leap from "It's sensible to do ABC" and "It should be required by law to do ABC, under penalty of fines and/or jail". We over-legislate things like public safety, and then rely on the court bureaucracy to apply sensibility and lenience on a case-by-case basis. See Also: Three felonies a day EDIT: Spelling

kevinnk 12y ago
How can you say it's a Western thing when places like Singapore have fines for not flushing the toilet?
- scott_karana 12y ago
  1) Fines aren't criminal offenses 2) I suspect that there are more valid reasons to leave a child in a car, compared to reasons to not flush. That said, the consequences are greater in the case of potential child neglect.

nostromo 12y ago

I'm willing to bet that having a pool in your yard is much more dangerous for your child than leaving them in a car with windows cracked for 5 minutes. Media drives government. Clicks drive the media. What we're left with is a hodgepodge of laws that attempt to prevent yesterday's headline.

Pxtl 12y ago
iirc, drowning is the #2 preventable cause of death in kids, after car accidents.
- Fuzzwah 12y ago
  As a 1st time Dad of a 4 month old I figured I should find this list. This pdf has it broken down into age groups: http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_Deaths_2010-a.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCID_Unintentional_D... This site was helpful and included an interesting little side bar: http://www.cdc.gov/safechild/NAP/overviews/ http://www.cdc.gov/safechild/NAP/overviews/ - Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of injury death overall, and especially for teens. - For infants, suffocation is the biggest risk of injury death. - Drowning is the leading cause of injury death for children age 1-4.
notdonspaulding 12y ago
> ... a hodgepodge of laws that attempt to prevent yesterday's headline. Oooh, nice, I'm going to steal that line. Relatedly, I think the person I'd be happiest to vote for in this day and age is someone who will introduce no new legislation, but just spend their time getting old pointless laws off the books. Think of it as an extension of "The best code you will ever write is… code you never write." I think more software engineers need to run for office.

moron4hire 12y ago

"He glanced up at me, his eyes alight with what I’d come to recognize as a sort of pre-tantrum agitation. “No, no, no, no, no! I don’t want to go in,” he repeated, and turned back to his game." That's where you failed. Clearly, there was a pattern of negligent parenting.

scrumper 12y ago
Are you being serious with that comment? I can't see how it's a joke. I strongly suspect you'll end up being downvoted into transparency, but in case not, where is the 'pattern'? Where, in fact, is even another example of negligence (conceding that some people may consider leaving the child in the car negligent, which I don't.) EDIT: Ah, it happened while I was replying, probably for the best.
- notdonspaulding 12y ago
  I understand where you're coming from here, but to parents who actually do have spines (and seek to grow such spines in their children), it is actually fairly easy to see that the reason the 4-year-old was left in the car was due the fact that he was running both the conversation and the decision-making that occurred throughout the incident. Which is to say, I can see the GP making the general point that the mom didn't have a "temporary lapse in judgement" as much as a systemic failure to live up to her role as the adult in the parent->child relationship. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing the mother is negligent for either this or leaving the kid in the car. I'm just saying when you can recognize that your child will throw a tantrum and your only recourse is to begin making concessions to them, you're already at a point where they are raising you more than you are raising them.
  - aidenn0 12y ago
    A good point. In a parenting class I went to recently, they showed the standard classical conditioning diagram, and then said roughly: "Now, while we know that there is more to human behavior than this box represents, it does describe a lot of it, and remember, that's not just your child, but you as well."

awda 12y ago

30-40 a year, mostly from suffocation sounds almost negligible. It seems fine if you crack the window and they know how to get out.

tptacek 12y ago
With a four year old, the prospect that they might get out of the car is one of the bigger worries you should have. A four year old walking alone through a parking lot is incredibly dangerous.
- awda 12y ago
  Probably something I should learn more about if I ever have a four year-old.

rsync 12y ago

As a sanity check, here is the law in California (which, I assume, is relatively restrictive, since it's California...): It is illegal to leave a 6 years old or younger unattended in a motor vehicle when: There are conditions that present a significant risk to the child's health or safety. Example: Leaving a child in a closed car on a very hot day. The vehicle's engine is running, the keys are in the ignition, or both. Children can start or move the car causing injuries and/or deaths to themselves or others. An opportunist may (and many have) seize the moment to jump in and drive your car away, child still strapped in.[1] So ... as long as there's nothing unsafe and the engine isn't running, you're "legal". [1] http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/safety-laws.php http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/safety-laws.php

darklajid 12y ago
Well, the article states that it wasn't illegal wherever that took place either. Somehow 'not illegal' is considered 'a grey area' though.. Which makes it even scarier. Excerpt for the people that just see your comment below (I = mother, He = lawyer): “I don’t get it,” I said to the lawyer. “Contributing to the delinquency of a minor? That makes no sense. It sounds like I was buying him beer.” He laughed. He told me he understood my confusion about the charge, but that it wasn’t that unusual. A few years before, the state had tried to pass an ordinance that would make it a misdemeanor to leave a child under 6 alone in a vehicle if the conditions within the vehicle or in the immediate vicinity of the vehicle presented a risk to the health or safety of the child. The penalty for a first offense would be a $100 civil penalty, in other words, a ticket. But the legislation didn’t pass, and so instead, the act of leaving a kid in a car would continue to fall into a legal gray area. The lawyer explained that the crime of contributing to the delinquency of a minor included “rendering a minor in need of services.” So, for example, he said, “If you’d left him there and not come back, someone from social services would have needed to come, bring him in, make sure he was safe and such.”
- grecy 12y ago
  > Well, the article states that it wasn't illegal wherever that took place either. Somehow 'not illegal' is considered 'a grey area' though It's my observation that anything that is "not illegal" in the US now means "We'll find a creative way to stop you doing it".

mikestew 12y ago

The U. S. has long been a country of busy-bodies (the Puritans weren't known for keeping their noses out of the business of others), and the example of this story demonstrates that cellphone cameras make it easier to share your nosiness without that uncomfortable confrontation of the past. Before you go off to pull out those "child cooks in car in Texas in July" anecdotes, consider that motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of death for children. So if we're collectively that worried about it, let's get up in arms about needlessly taking the child on a car trip before we worry about applying "justice" to someone who left their child in a car in 50F weather. If it were truly a case of "good samaritan" I'd blow it off. But I'm going to guess it was more a case of "she's doing something I think is awful. Regardless of whether harm was done or not, I'm going to go tattle!"

IanDrake 12y ago

Seriously, this is my number one reason for not having kids. For the younger crowd who may not understand, I was born in '77: - I rode in the back hatch (no seats) of my dad's corvette until I was 8, cops would wave to us. - At 6 I could ride my bike around pretty much anywhere I wanted, but wasn't allowed to cross rt6 (which I didn't, though no one checked). - Left in the car in parking lots for up to an hour. - Arrived home from school with no one home starting in 1st grade.

claar 12y ago
Yep, I can relate. I was born in '78 and grew up on a farm. Please, have kids and raise them reasonably according to your own standards, not the nanny-state's. If we don't defend personal freedom, who will?
tptacek 12y ago
Putting children in the seatless back hatch of a Corvette was probably not a great parenting call either. Not everything that used to be S.O.P. for parents was good judgement. Not every safety concern we've developed over the last 20 years is wrong. Some of them are very valid.
- mentat 12y ago
  Risk minimization as an overriding strategy is fundamentally flawed as it is never complete. It also appears that people are really bad at understanding the costs for very small benefits.
- awj 12y ago
  Yeah, people also survived when we put lead paint on everything. Evaluate the issue on its actual merits and relevant statistics, not wether or not you personally won the "take an unnecessary risk" dice roll.
Pxtl 12y ago
For the record, even today with our safety obsessed culture? Car accidents are still the leading preventable cause of death in children (non-preventable things like birth-defects and complications from childbirth itself are the only things that rank higher). Cars are what kills kids, even now in our hyper-safe society. So it's worth re-examining that stuff. Which means the thing with the Corvette? Probably wasn't a good idea in hindsight. But yeah, the total lack of independence in today's kids is a different story. There is no epidemic of kiddy diddlers, of kids wandering off and getting lost and somehow dying. So the obsessive "have your kids with you at all times" thing is probably a modern over-reaction. But the stuff about cars? Yeah, respect and fear traffic.

claar 12y ago

I hope the reason that this story is popular is that we as a society agree it's absurd. Leaving a child in a locked car in the situation described is perfectly acceptable. The police getting involved is ridiculous, which makes it a great story. Hopefully the correct lesson is learned.

jack-r-abbit 12y ago

My dad used to drag us around in the snow behind his truck as we laid on an upside down car hood tethered to the truck with a rope. It was a prefect 3-person toboggan. That was in the 70s. No one cared. Just this week a woman got media blasted for having her infant pulled down the church aisle on her wedding dress train. Now I find that a bit tacky as far as weddings go but I can't imagine that child was in any more danger than I was while speeding down a dirt road on an overturned hood. Times have changed.

bpackard 12y ago

Imagine what would have happened if she stood firm, and brought little Simon NoNo into the store. He proceeds to throw a fit, and then [gasp!] she threatens to, or even does, spank him in the butt. She'd have likely been arrested and missed the flight home.

jaimebuelta 12y ago

All this seems crazy... It seems like we are not able to understand some risks and gave up directly to irrational fears... In particular anything related to kids. I respect people with irrational fears, and understand that sometimes happen. For example fear or flying. But we seem to accept that just because someone has that kind of fear is ok to act like that fear was a real danger. As the article said, driving is, comparatively, a huge risk compared with things like kid abductions or terrorist attacks. We seem not to give a dam to drive four hours a day, but be scared to death if we cross someone on a dark street... We are simply terrible evaluating risks, and be more fearful each day...

jaimebuelta 12y ago

tptacek 12y ago

I've flagged down a cop seeing a kid alone in a car, and would do it again. Should people who leave their toddlers in cars be prosecuted criminally? That's a complicated question. In almost every reasonable case the answer is probably "no". But this article doesn't really grapple with that question. Instead, it's a stew of rationalization and misdirection. It is literally an argument for leaving kids alone in cars. "I immunize my kids. I know pools are dangerous." Yeah, and you left a four year old alone in a parked car. You brought it up. BAD CALL. "This other parent let their nine-year-old ride the subway by themselves." Well, I think that's a bad call too, but who cares? Nine isn't four, the subway isn't a parked car. "And then I left him in the car for about five minutes. He didn’t die. He wasn’t kidnapped or assaulted or forgotten or dragged across state lines by a carjacker. When I returned to the car, he was still playing his game, smiling." Asshole. The risks to a four year old child left alone in a parked car aren't that the boogeyman might steal them. If you want to read a piece that seriously grapples with this issue, read Gene Weingarten's "Fatal Distraction" from the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022701549.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02...

imgabe 12y ago
What, exactly, are the risks to a child in a locked car on a cool day for five minutes?
- tptacek 12y ago
  My thoughts immediately go to "that they will get hit by a car when they figure out how to get out".
  - imgabe 12y ago
    The article states that the car had child locks, which were used, so the doors could only be opened from the outside. Furthermore, the kid specifically wanted to go on the trip in the first place so he could sit in the car and play with the iPad, which he was happily doing. It's not impossible that in the space of five minutes the kid could get bored of the iPad, unbuckle the car seat, and figure out how to disable the child locks from inside the car. It's just very, very unlikely. If that's what had happened there would be a case for getting the police involved, but it didn't happen. If we're going start prosecuting people for every crime they could hypothetically commit at any given point, every single person would be in jail.

fixermark 12y ago

I remember when my mom left me in the car to run into the grocery store one summer. I put the seat back and dozed with my head resting against the partially-slackened seatbelt. It was a hot day with the sun shining right in the windshield. It felt nice and sauna-like, so I closed my eyes for a bit... My mother got pretty upset when she came back and found me in that state. She told me that's how people manage to die in the car, and when I realized how hot it was I should have popped the door open and come inside. And, well, she was right! :)

krupan 12y ago

Wow, what a story for a parent to read. Lenore Skenazy and her discussion of the various risks we take as parents is awesome. Also, read Parenting with Love and Logic. Makes the argument that over-protecting your kids is denying them important learning opportunities. Mind blowing at first, but then when you think about it (and remember your own largely unsupervised childhood) it makes a lot of sense.

balor123 12y ago

I was leaving daycare a few weeks ago and saw someone do the same. She left one kid in the car while she went inside to pick up the other one, in Texas. At least it was in front of a daycare center during pickup time, where people would likely notice. Still, a number of things can delay you inside or in the worst case, if you have a freak accident then it could easily be the end of the kid too.

peterwwillis 12y ago

> I got out of the car one day to feed the parking meter next to the driver side window. “Don’t, Mommy. Don’t. The police will come.” I went to let the dog into our front yard while he was watching his morning cartoon. “Mommy, no!!! The police.” Sigh..... It's such a tragic, fucked up thing that our society could do this to a child and his mother. We all really need to think more about the consequences of our actions. The bystander who called in should have done more than just call the police. The mother should have brought the kid in. The cop(s) shouldn't have let it get to court. The courts shouldn't be able to split apart families for a single, momentary, stupid, virtually riskless act. And the media needs to not villify and capitalize on the fear and hate of people who judge situations like this without context.

aidenn0 12y ago
To be fair, all we know is that prosecutors can threaten to split families apart for a single, momentary stupid, virtually riskless act. The mother agreed to a plea-bargain because she didn't want to find out if they actually could.

headgasket 12y ago

At this rate HomeAlone(1,2,3) will soon have to be reclassified as R rated horror by the MPAA!

janitor61 12y ago

If you had put the kid in the trunk, nobody would of ever called.

Osiris 12y ago

I, personally, don't believe that children should ever be left alone in a car, but I'm not sure where the legal line should be drawn. On one extreme, it would only be criminal if a child dies under your care, which would be criminally negligent homicide or something similar. On the other, we can't run in to drop a movie off at RedBox without getting 3 kids out of the car. I wish people in positions of authority were able to apply more common sense and wisdom than always involving the criminal justice system. My wife knows a lady that does (unlicensed) day care, and she leaves kids in the car all the time. She just tells them to hide so no one sees them. As far as I know, none have been injured, but it's also pretty irresponsible and I wouldn't allow her to watch my child.

greedo 12y ago
Unfortunately, people in positions of authority have no incentive to apply wisdom and common sense. Imagine if they ignore this report, and something bad happened to the child? They'd be crucified. It's far easier to take the report, do the minimal amount of investigation required by policy, and then let a prosecutor apply their discretion as to whether charges are pressed. The same perverse incentives apply to the prosecutor as well. It's no skin off his back to charge the mother, and he can always say "it's for the children!" if queried about it. But should a child die, when both the police and prosecutor could have done something, is something our society won't allow.

agorism 12y ago

As if Child Protective Service has anything to do with protecting children. Orphans are very profitable. Charging people with crimes is how police, judges, and prison guards get paid.

aidenn0 12y ago
I'm not even sure where to begin responding to this. 1) CPS wasn't ever involved in this case 2) Everywhere I've ever lived CPS was already understaffed and overworked; they don't have time to go looking for children to take away, they're busy enough already.

tdiggity 12y ago

Is it ok if my car can keep the AC running (engine off) while my kid is in the car? I'd probably get arrested for the possibility that the car could get too cold...

rudedogg 12y ago

"What Would You Do?" on ABC had a scenario about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSveKV8Tk3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSveKV8Tk3s