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Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. That's a legitimate program

Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. That's a legitimate programming job. Cool software rarely makes money. Cool software that makes money (game development) doesn't pay very much. Then you stumble upon a IRC channel and a world of challenges opens in front of you. A book is far more challenging, because in an IRC channel you're a fish in a small pond. Eventually you grow to be the biggest fish, or forever limit yourself to being small. What a book can't give is peer recognition. But peer recognition is a vain motive, and vanity is rarely lucrative. A book also can't answer questions, but you can use IRC or a website like stackexchange for that. If anyone reading this has personal experience flirting with blackhattery, please carefully consider what you're doing and why you're doing it. (And if you'd like someone to talk to, please feel free to shoot me an email. I'd like hearing about your experiences and your thoughts.)

FiloSottile 12y ago
I think I should stress I'm speaking about young people. Peer recognition is critical when starting at that age. Also careful consideration is not exactly common. I'm in no way alleging that it is a reasonable way to go for a mature professional, but I acknowledge the charm it has for the young high-schooler that is being "taught" Excel at school and being told not to fiddle with that weird black terminal. These boys and girls should not have their lives destroyed by a harsh punishment for their curiosity, that in a different setting would have been highly rewarded. I can totally picture myself doing the same errors in different conditions. Btw, management software is a legitimate programming job of zero interest to security people. Just different curiosity fields.
- jakejake 12y ago
  It's a kinda strange thing. Before the digital age kids like myself just did not have access to many things that could get them into so much trouble. I caused my share of mischief when I was a kid, just like most boys will do. Probably the worst tools I had at my disposal were eggs or snowballs to throw at cars. The opportunity for me to reach out from my bedroom and cause damage to a multi-national corporation or government just was not available to me or anybody at the time. It's hard to imagine what I could have done as a kid to even get the attention of the FBI, let alone have them trying to trap me in a sting operation. Kids today have a lot more ways to do some serious damage and get themselves into real trouble.
  - atmosx 12y ago
    I wonder what % of HN people never made anything illegal, like: * Hack into a remove computer server/friends PC. * Broke a WEP/WPA wifi network to gain access * Performed MiTM to see what kind of data can sniff * Performed brute-force dictionary attack without being asked. * Shared illegal digital material with friends I feel it's about ~ 3%.
    - psykovsky 12y ago
      I sense optimism in that number...
    - SixSigma 12y ago
      Add : * Scraped website and used the data for some other opportunity
    - esrauch 12y ago
      I would think the first 4 together is probably a bit more than 3%, but the last one alone is probably >40%
  - icebraining 12y ago
    You probably didn't have access because you didn't look for it. A kid with the right mindset and a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook or similar could cause a lot of panic and draw a lot of attention. The difference is not access, it's the inherently nonviolent nature of digital. It's easier to get a kid to care about not hurting others than about not hurting an abstract legal entity like a company.
    - CJefferson 12y ago
      Before the Internet, how would I ever had acquired a copy of the anarchists cookbook in rural England? I did know the book existed, and I am sure I would have tried some of it out if I could have got a copy.
    - jakejake 12y ago
      It's probably true there were ways to get yourself into real trouble before the Internet. I guess phone phreaking or calling in threats and such. Still it seems like there's a lot more temptation out there for a kid to cause mischief now that the entire world is wired together.
psykotic 12y ago
> Cool software that makes money (game development) doesn't pay very much. Your thinking must be stuck in the last century. By the time I entered the game industry 13 years ago, salaries were already on par with the software industry at large. My first full-time position was in 2003 and paid $85,000/year. Based on the numbers I've seen, game programmers currently earn significantly more than web developers with an equivalent amount of experience, despite the wage-inflationary effect of the VC money faucet. The coolness factor used to play a greater role. I would say it still affects the supply side for QA, design and very entry-level positions in programming. For programmers with any level of competency and experience, its role is negligible.
- Bahamut 12y ago
  Are you sure about that? After 1 1/2 years in web development I am making significantly more than all of my game developer friends (even 2x some).
  - psykotic 12y ago
    I'm going on personal knowledge and IGDA salary surveys. What part of the industry are your friends in? I should maybe have mentioned that the growing F2P, casual, mobile segment bears little resemblance, economically and otherwise, to what I would consider the traditional AAA game industry (which may eventually go the way of the dodo).
    - Bahamut 12y ago
      I have friends in various parts of the industry - F2P, AAA, mobile, and indie. The consensus amongst my friends in game development is that it doesn't pay well for the amount of work they're doing, but it's what they enjoy doing so they're willing to tolerate it. I should also mention that I am a bit of an anomaly - I'm an AngularJS expert, which seems to be in extremely high demand right now. I'm making around $160k (including stock compensation), and I may have even lowballed myself in salary negotiations.
      - 12y ago

FiloSottile 12y ago

I think I should stress I'm speaking about young people. Peer recognition is critical when starting at that age. Also careful consideration is not exactly common. I'm in no way alleging that it is a reasonable way to go for a mature professional, but I acknowledge the charm it has for the young high-schooler that is being "taught" Excel at school and being told not to fiddle with that weird black terminal. These boys and girls should not have their lives destroyed by a harsh punishment for their curiosity, that in a different setting would have been highly rewarded. I can totally picture myself doing the same errors in different conditions. Btw, management software is a legitimate programming job of zero interest to security people. Just different curiosity fields.

jakejake 12y ago
It's a kinda strange thing. Before the digital age kids like myself just did not have access to many things that could get them into so much trouble. I caused my share of mischief when I was a kid, just like most boys will do. Probably the worst tools I had at my disposal were eggs or snowballs to throw at cars. The opportunity for me to reach out from my bedroom and cause damage to a multi-national corporation or government just was not available to me or anybody at the time. It's hard to imagine what I could have done as a kid to even get the attention of the FBI, let alone have them trying to trap me in a sting operation. Kids today have a lot more ways to do some serious damage and get themselves into real trouble.
- atmosx 12y ago
  I wonder what % of HN people never made anything illegal, like: * Hack into a remove computer server/friends PC. * Broke a WEP/WPA wifi network to gain access * Performed MiTM to see what kind of data can sniff * Performed brute-force dictionary attack without being asked. * Shared illegal digital material with friends I feel it's about ~ 3%.
  - psykovsky 12y ago
    I sense optimism in that number...
  - SixSigma 12y ago
    Add : * Scraped website and used the data for some other opportunity
  - esrauch 12y ago
    I would think the first 4 together is probably a bit more than 3%, but the last one alone is probably >40%
- icebraining 12y ago
  You probably didn't have access because you didn't look for it. A kid with the right mindset and a copy of the Anarchist Cookbook or similar could cause a lot of panic and draw a lot of attention. The difference is not access, it's the inherently nonviolent nature of digital. It's easier to get a kid to care about not hurting others than about not hurting an abstract legal entity like a company.
  - CJefferson 12y ago
    Before the Internet, how would I ever had acquired a copy of the anarchists cookbook in rural England? I did know the book existed, and I am sure I would have tried some of it out if I could have got a copy.
  - jakejake 12y ago
    It's probably true there were ways to get yourself into real trouble before the Internet. I guess phone phreaking or calling in threats and such. Still it seems like there's a lot more temptation out there for a kid to cause mischief now that the entire world is wired together.

psykotic 12y ago

> Cool software that makes money (game development) doesn't pay very much. Your thinking must be stuck in the last century. By the time I entered the game industry 13 years ago, salaries were already on par with the software industry at large. My first full-time position was in 2003 and paid $85,000/year. Based on the numbers I've seen, game programmers currently earn significantly more than web developers with an equivalent amount of experience, despite the wage-inflationary effect of the VC money faucet. The coolness factor used to play a greater role. I would say it still affects the supply side for QA, design and very entry-level positions in programming. For programmers with any level of competency and experience, its role is negligible.

Bahamut 12y ago
Are you sure about that? After 1 1/2 years in web development I am making significantly more than all of my game developer friends (even 2x some).
- psykotic 12y ago
  I'm going on personal knowledge and IGDA salary surveys. What part of the industry are your friends in? I should maybe have mentioned that the growing F2P, casual, mobile segment bears little resemblance, economically and otherwise, to what I would consider the traditional AAA game industry (which may eventually go the way of the dodo).
  - Bahamut 12y ago
    I have friends in various parts of the industry - F2P, AAA, mobile, and indie. The consensus amongst my friends in game development is that it doesn't pay well for the amount of work they're doing, but it's what they enjoy doing so they're willing to tolerate it. I should also mention that I am a bit of an anomaly - I'm an AngularJS expert, which seems to be in extremely high demand right now. I'm making around $160k (including stock compensation), and I may have even lowballed myself in salary negotiations.
    - 12y ago