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I don't feel sorry for malware writers. They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. And this guy also stole people's software keys. If they were talente

by codexon 12y ago

I don't feel sorry for malware writers. They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. And this guy also stole people's software keys. If they were talented coders, they could've found less destructive ways to make money. But he decided to go the greedy route.

NamTaf 12y ago
Why should we not treat people who make mistakes like humans if they show genuine remose and a desire to reform, such as this guy or e.g.: Kevin Mitnick? The justice system is supposed to be (in most countries, at least) to be a method of both punishment and rehibilitation. Why not find ways to assist them in completing the latter? I don't think it's particularly farfetched to expect relatively socially ostracised teenaged boys to not make the best judgement decisions right as they are developing their computer science skills. Most of them end up becoming relatively well-adjusted (within the scope of an introverted computer nerd) people so why not help them in that development?
- pekk 12y ago
  Why should we not start with black guys instead of making special exceptions for white kids committing "white collar" crimes? Why does the involvement of computers make some criminals better than others?
  - LukeB_UK 12y ago
    I see nothing in what NamTaf said that means we should be 'making special exceptions for white kids committing "white collar" crimes'. To me they're saying that we should treat anyone as a human if they show genuine remorse and a desire to change. This could apply to any crime committed by any race, any age and any gender. The fact that you throw the race card down so quickly when it comes to a discussion about crime concerns me.
  - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation "What about the people wrongfully on death row?"
  - garric 12y ago
    He's not saying that we shouldn't. But the U.S. is overwhelmingly focused on punishment, retribution, and incapacitation rather than rehabilitation. Essentially victim blaming, if you want to look at it like that. Opinion: It's going to take system-wide reform to accomplish anything meaningful.
    - paulhauggis 12y ago
      so..a person that murders an innocent person is now a victim? some people are past the point of rehabilitation and should be in prison.
      - Jtsummers 12y ago
        > some people are past the point of rehabilitation and should be in prison. If we made a serious effort of rehabilitation in the US penal system, then this might be fair. We don't. Prisoners, especially those who commit the crimes in their youth, are screwed under our current system. The younger criminals, like their non-criminal youth counterparts, just don't know or don't appreciate the options available to them regarding education and learning trade skills. We put them into an environment with other people we've given up on and somehow expect that when they get out a year or a decade later they'll be ready to reintegrate into society. They didn't have the skill set going in, and they won't have it coming out. Many of them will continue to live on the fringes of our society, perhaps making a meager living as unskilled laborers. Others will fall into a crowd that keeps them involved in crime or other "antisocial", or however you want to describe it, behavior.
      - tfigment 12y ago
        As harsh as this sounds, I agree. My brother is my personal example. He had 4-5 chances at rehabilitation. First it was small stuff like pawning my mom's jewelry then it was breaking and entering to the neighbors or my dad's truck or whatever as I've not heard all of the charges. The system gave him several breaks and it would last 6 months (or less) before he was at it again each time worse than the last. I am only grateful that he is in for the next 20 years so he cannot be even worse. Also as a juvenile the book was not thrown at him and was always released back to custody of my father who was very welcoming and tried his best but some people are beyond hope. The only good thing that came from him was my nieces and even they didn't really turn out that great due to probably a twisted childhood and weird relation with dad.
  - im3w1l 12y ago
    Let me cite another comment. "I felt for this guy, because it could easily have happened to me," This doesn't explain why we ought treat these crimes as different. But it does explain why we do treat them different. I think.
  - lmm 12y ago
    Because violent crime is, uh, worse than non-violent crime? Because it harms others more directly, and because the second-order effects of living in a society where violent crime happens are much worse than those of living in a society where white-collar crime happens?
    - buttscicles 12y ago
      Violence wasn't mentioned at all
Jtsummers 12y ago
> I don't feel sorry for malware writers. They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. Few people in US prisons [1] deserve what they're getting. It takes a cold-hearted prick to honestly believe what you've written. [1] While this guy wasn't, the sort of people deftnerd is talking about are.
pandatigox 12y ago
Some of the people behind bars are because they did something that was morally right but condoned by the government. While I can't argue for the guy mentioned in the article, people like Bradley Manning are wasting away their lives. Do you really don't want to help these victims?
- Jtsummers 12y ago
  I don't like doing this (replying without actually extending the conversation) but you've missed a word: morally right but not condoned by the government. ^^^
- hueving 12y ago
  How was what Chelsea Manning did morally right? Leaking that much information that could put other peoples' lives at risk isn't exactly morally right.
- codexon 12y ago
  This guy doesn't belong in the same category as Manning and Aaron Swartz.
PhantomGremlin 12y ago
The problem is that this guy was young, relatively speaking, maybe about 20. The headline calls him a "boy", so he was certainly under 21. By the time I was 21, I certainly wouldn't have done something like what he did. But, just a few years earlier, say at 18, yes, I did stupid things. In his position I probably could have done what he did. At that age many "boys" brains just aren't developed enough to truly understand right and wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished. But I am saying they definitely shouldn't be punished harshly. In this case he was lucky to receive two years of probation as punishment. Something like that, or perhaps what we call "community service", is certainly more appropriate than throwing him in adult jail with hardened criminals.
FiloSottile 12y ago
> If they were talented coders, they could've found less destructive ways to make money. But he decided to go the greedy route. Let me guess: you are a US citizen, or anyway live in a country where developer positions abound. Well, not everyone is. Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. Also this was before Freelancer.com, before code.org. And he was a boy, he couldn't just relocate. Also, before the App Store. This is exactly the curiosity that people who enter the InfoSec world feel, coupled with real skills. Often too much skills and too little to do to start. Then you stumble upon a IRC channel and a world of challenges opens in front of you. By the way, he asked Valve to hire him. Maybe he just didn't find "less destructive ways to make money" yet. Don't judge if people are oppressed (or better, repressed) if you have never been, please, either because at that age YOU had the occasions or guidance, or because you hadn't that curiosity or talent.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. That's a legitimate programming job. Cool software rarely makes money. Cool software that makes money (game development) doesn't pay very much. Then you stumble upon a IRC channel and a world of challenges opens in front of you. A book is far more challenging, because in an IRC channel you're a fish in a small pond. Eventually you grow to be the biggest fish, or forever limit yourself to being small. What a book can't give is peer recognition. But peer recognition is a vain motive, and vanity is rarely lucrative. A book also can't answer questions, but you can use IRC or a website like stackexchange for that. If anyone reading this has personal experience flirting with blackhattery, please carefully consider what you're doing and why you're doing it. (And if you'd like someone to talk to, please feel free to shoot me an email. I'd like hearing about your experiences and your thoughts.)
  - FiloSottile 12y ago
    I think I should stress I'm speaking about young people. Peer recognition is critical when starting at that age. Also careful consideration is not exactly common. I'm in no way alleging that it is a reasonable way to go for a mature professional, but I acknowledge the charm it has for the young high-schooler that is being "taught" Excel at school and being told not to fiddle with that weird black terminal. These boys and girls should not have their lives destroyed by a harsh punishment for their curiosity, that in a different setting would have been highly rewarded. I can totally picture myself doing the same errors in different conditions. Btw, management software is a legitimate programming job of zero interest to security people. Just different curiosity fields.
ago 12y ago
I agree that what I did was bad, but to say that it takes no talent is just wrong. In fact some of the things were more challenging than anything I've come accross at any of my jobs (programming embedded device firmware, test automation and realtime graphics) in the last 10 years. And no, I couldn't find even a "boring" programming job where I lived. Of course I tried, I tried a lot. Really, you have no idea what kind of shithole the place I grew up at was for programmers. Still, that doesn't excuse what I did, and I'm sorry for it.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  The past is the past. You shouldn't have to run around apologizing for the rest of your life. And I hope you feel welcome in communities like HN. You have a lot of talent. What have you been up to over the years? It'd be cool to hear about your career and life in general.
macspoofing 12y ago
>They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. Depends what you mean by that. In this guy's case, had he boarded the plane he would have gotten two decades in an American jail, versus two years of probation in Germany. I think he should be held accountable, but somehow, given the nature of the crime and the surrounding context, I think Germany got it right.
Fuxy 12y ago
You're assuming he made money. Not everybody does it for money actually his motivation was quite clear he liked the games but couldn't afford to buy them legit. A situation i can relate with given I've been in a similar one. Nowhere in this article was there a mention of hacking in order to make money.
norswap 12y ago
How sad it must be, to live without compassion.

by codexon 12y ago

NamTaf 12y ago

Why should we not treat people who make mistakes like humans if they show genuine remose and a desire to reform, such as this guy or e.g.: Kevin Mitnick? The justice system is supposed to be (in most countries, at least) to be a method of both punishment and rehibilitation. Why not find ways to assist them in completing the latter? I don't think it's particularly farfetched to expect relatively socially ostracised teenaged boys to not make the best judgement decisions right as they are developing their computer science skills. Most of them end up becoming relatively well-adjusted (within the scope of an introverted computer nerd) people so why not help them in that development?

pekk 12y ago
Why should we not start with black guys instead of making special exceptions for white kids committing "white collar" crimes? Why does the involvement of computers make some criminals better than others?
- LukeB_UK 12y ago
  I see nothing in what NamTaf said that means we should be 'making special exceptions for white kids committing "white collar" crimes'. To me they're saying that we should treat anyone as a human if they show genuine remorse and a desire to change. This could apply to any crime committed by any race, any age and any gender. The fact that you throw the race card down so quickly when it comes to a discussion about crime concerns me.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation "What about the people wrongfully on death row?"
- garric 12y ago
  He's not saying that we shouldn't. But the U.S. is overwhelmingly focused on punishment, retribution, and incapacitation rather than rehabilitation. Essentially victim blaming, if you want to look at it like that. Opinion: It's going to take system-wide reform to accomplish anything meaningful.
  - paulhauggis 12y ago
    so..a person that murders an innocent person is now a victim? some people are past the point of rehabilitation and should be in prison.
    - Jtsummers 12y ago
      > some people are past the point of rehabilitation and should be in prison. If we made a serious effort of rehabilitation in the US penal system, then this might be fair. We don't. Prisoners, especially those who commit the crimes in their youth, are screwed under our current system. The younger criminals, like their non-criminal youth counterparts, just don't know or don't appreciate the options available to them regarding education and learning trade skills. We put them into an environment with other people we've given up on and somehow expect that when they get out a year or a decade later they'll be ready to reintegrate into society. They didn't have the skill set going in, and they won't have it coming out. Many of them will continue to live on the fringes of our society, perhaps making a meager living as unskilled laborers. Others will fall into a crowd that keeps them involved in crime or other "antisocial", or however you want to describe it, behavior.
    - tfigment 12y ago
      As harsh as this sounds, I agree. My brother is my personal example. He had 4-5 chances at rehabilitation. First it was small stuff like pawning my mom's jewelry then it was breaking and entering to the neighbors or my dad's truck or whatever as I've not heard all of the charges. The system gave him several breaks and it would last 6 months (or less) before he was at it again each time worse than the last. I am only grateful that he is in for the next 20 years so he cannot be even worse. Also as a juvenile the book was not thrown at him and was always released back to custody of my father who was very welcoming and tried his best but some people are beyond hope. The only good thing that came from him was my nieces and even they didn't really turn out that great due to probably a twisted childhood and weird relation with dad.
- im3w1l 12y ago
  Let me cite another comment. "I felt for this guy, because it could easily have happened to me," This doesn't explain why we ought treat these crimes as different. But it does explain why we do treat them different. I think.
- lmm 12y ago
  Because violent crime is, uh, worse than non-violent crime? Because it harms others more directly, and because the second-order effects of living in a society where violent crime happens are much worse than those of living in a society where white-collar crime happens?
  - buttscicles 12y ago
    Violence wasn't mentioned at all

Jtsummers 12y ago

> I don't feel sorry for malware writers. They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. Few people in US prisons [1] deserve what they're getting. It takes a cold-hearted prick to honestly believe what you've written. [1] While this guy wasn't, the sort of people deftnerd is talking about are.

pandatigox 12y ago

Some of the people behind bars are because they did something that was morally right but condoned by the government. While I can't argue for the guy mentioned in the article, people like Bradley Manning are wasting away their lives. Do you really don't want to help these victims?

Jtsummers 12y ago
I don't like doing this (replying without actually extending the conversation) but you've missed a word: morally right but not condoned by the government. ^^^
hueving 12y ago
How was what Chelsea Manning did morally right? Leaking that much information that could put other peoples' lives at risk isn't exactly morally right.
codexon 12y ago
This guy doesn't belong in the same category as Manning and Aaron Swartz.

PhantomGremlin 12y ago

The problem is that this guy was young, relatively speaking, maybe about 20. The headline calls him a "boy", so he was certainly under 21. By the time I was 21, I certainly wouldn't have done something like what he did. But, just a few years earlier, say at 18, yes, I did stupid things. In his position I probably could have done what he did. At that age many "boys" brains just aren't developed enough to truly understand right and wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished. But I am saying they definitely shouldn't be punished harshly. In this case he was lucky to receive two years of probation as punishment. Something like that, or perhaps what we call "community service", is certainly more appropriate than throwing him in adult jail with hardened criminals.

FiloSottile 12y ago

> If they were talented coders, they could've found less destructive ways to make money. But he decided to go the greedy route. Let me guess: you are a US citizen, or anyway live in a country where developer positions abound. Well, not everyone is. Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. Also this was before Freelancer.com, before code.org. And he was a boy, he couldn't just relocate. Also, before the App Store. This is exactly the curiosity that people who enter the InfoSec world feel, coupled with real skills. Often too much skills and too little to do to start. Then you stumble upon a IRC channel and a world of challenges opens in front of you. By the way, he asked Valve to hire him. Maybe he just didn't find "less destructive ways to make money" yet. Don't judge if people are oppressed (or better, repressed) if you have never been, please, either because at that age YOU had the occasions or guidance, or because you hadn't that curiosity or talent.

sillysaurus3 12y ago
Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. That's a legitimate programming job. Cool software rarely makes money. Cool software that makes money (game development) doesn't pay very much. Then you stumble upon a IRC channel and a world of challenges opens in front of you. A book is far more challenging, because in an IRC channel you're a fish in a small pond. Eventually you grow to be the biggest fish, or forever limit yourself to being small. What a book can't give is peer recognition. But peer recognition is a vain motive, and vanity is rarely lucrative. A book also can't answer questions, but you can use IRC or a website like stackexchange for that. If anyone reading this has personal experience flirting with blackhattery, please carefully consider what you're doing and why you're doing it. (And if you'd like someone to talk to, please feel free to shoot me an email. I'd like hearing about your experiences and your thoughts.)
- FiloSottile 12y ago
  I think I should stress I'm speaking about young people. Peer recognition is critical when starting at that age. Also careful consideration is not exactly common. I'm in no way alleging that it is a reasonable way to go for a mature professional, but I acknowledge the charm it has for the young high-schooler that is being "taught" Excel at school and being told not to fiddle with that weird black terminal. These boys and girls should not have their lives destroyed by a harsh punishment for their curiosity, that in a different setting would have been highly rewarded. I can totally picture myself doing the same errors in different conditions. Btw, management software is a legitimate programming job of zero interest to security people. Just different curiosity fields.

ago 12y ago

I agree that what I did was bad, but to say that it takes no talent is just wrong. In fact some of the things were more challenging than anything I've come accross at any of my jobs (programming embedded device firmware, test automation and realtime graphics) in the last 10 years. And no, I couldn't find even a "boring" programming job where I lived. Of course I tried, I tried a lot. Really, you have no idea what kind of shithole the place I grew up at was for programmers. Still, that doesn't excuse what I did, and I'm sorry for it.

sillysaurus3 12y ago
The past is the past. You shouldn't have to run around apologizing for the rest of your life. And I hope you feel welcome in communities like HN. You have a lot of talent. What have you been up to over the years? It'd be cool to hear about your career and life in general.

macspoofing 12y ago

>They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. Depends what you mean by that. In this guy's case, had he boarded the plane he would have gotten two decades in an American jail, versus two years of probation in Germany. I think he should be held accountable, but somehow, given the nature of the crime and the surrounding context, I think Germany got it right.

Fuxy 12y ago

You're assuming he made money. Not everybody does it for money actually his motivation was quite clear he liked the games but couldn't afford to buy them legit. A situation i can relate with given I've been in a similar one. Nowhere in this article was there a mention of hacking in order to make money.

norswap 12y ago

How sad it must be, to live without compassion.