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It's stories like these that's inspired me to start up a new project at oppressed.me. I'm trying to compile a list of hackers and hacktivists that have been imp

It's stories like these that's inspired me to start up a new project at oppressed.me. I'm trying to compile a list of hackers and hacktivists that have been imprisoned in order to let the internet easily send them correspondence. I'm also going to ask publishers for donations of older copies of technical books to send them. A lot of hackers are just kids that make a stupid mistake. During their time in jail, their skills get soft or they'll get hardened by their time there. My hope is to let them know that people on the outside still are thinking of them and to help them keep their skills up-to-date. I'm a bit overwhelmed with a startup at the moment, but I anticipate the non-profit to be formed and to launch sometime in the fall.

cabbeer 12y ago
Sounds like a cool project. Let me know if you want some front end help.
codexon 12y ago
I don't feel sorry for malware writers. They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. And this guy also stole people's software keys. If they were talented coders, they could've found less destructive ways to make money. But he decided to go the greedy route.
- NamTaf 12y ago
  Why should we not treat people who make mistakes like humans if they show genuine remose and a desire to reform, such as this guy or e.g.: Kevin Mitnick? The justice system is supposed to be (in most countries, at least) to be a method of both punishment and rehibilitation. Why not find ways to assist them in completing the latter? I don't think it's particularly farfetched to expect relatively socially ostracised teenaged boys to not make the best judgement decisions right as they are developing their computer science skills. Most of them end up becoming relatively well-adjusted (within the scope of an introverted computer nerd) people so why not help them in that development?
  - pekk 12y ago
    Why should we not start with black guys instead of making special exceptions for white kids committing "white collar" crimes? Why does the involvement of computers make some criminals better than others?
    - LukeB_UK 12y ago
      I see nothing in what NamTaf said that means we should be 'making special exceptions for white kids committing "white collar" crimes'. To me they're saying that we should treat anyone as a human if they show genuine remorse and a desire to change. This could apply to any crime committed by any race, any age and any gender. The fact that you throw the race card down so quickly when it comes to a discussion about crime concerns me.
    - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation "What about the people wrongfully on death row?"
    - garric 12y ago
      He's not saying that we shouldn't. But the U.S. is overwhelmingly focused on punishment, retribution, and incapacitation rather than rehabilitation. Essentially victim blaming, if you want to look at it like that. Opinion: It's going to take system-wide reform to accomplish anything meaningful.
      - paulhauggis 12y ago
        so..a person that murders an innocent person is now a victim? some people are past the point of rehabilitation and should be in prison.
        Jtsummers 12y ago
        > some people are past the point of rehabilitation and should be in prison. If we made a serious effort of rehabilitation in the US penal system, then this might be fair. We don't. Prisoners, especially those who commit the crimes in their youth, are screwed under our current system. The younger criminals, like their non-criminal youth counterparts, just don't know or don't appreciate the options available to them regarding education and learning trade skills. We put them into an environment with other people we've given up on and somehow expect that when they get out a year or a decade later they'll be ready to reintegrate into society. They didn't have the skill set going in, and they won't have it coming out. Many of them will continue to live on the fringes of our society, perhaps making a meager living as unskilled laborers. Others will fall into a crowd that keeps them involved in crime or other "antisocial", or however you want to describe it, behavior.
- Jtsummers 12y ago
  > I don't feel sorry for malware writers. They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. Few people in US prisons [1] deserve what they're getting. It takes a cold-hearted prick to honestly believe what you've written. [1] While this guy wasn't, the sort of people deftnerd is talking about are.
- pandatigox 12y ago
  Some of the people behind bars are because they did something that was morally right but condoned by the government. While I can't argue for the guy mentioned in the article, people like Bradley Manning are wasting away their lives. Do you really don't want to help these victims?
  - Jtsummers 12y ago
    I don't like doing this (replying without actually extending the conversation) but you've missed a word: morally right but not condoned by the government. ^^^
  - hueving 12y ago
    How was what Chelsea Manning did morally right? Leaking that much information that could put other peoples' lives at risk isn't exactly morally right.
  - codexon 12y ago
    This guy doesn't belong in the same category as Manning and Aaron Swartz.
- PhantomGremlin 12y ago
  The problem is that this guy was young, relatively speaking, maybe about 20. The headline calls him a "boy", so he was certainly under 21. By the time I was 21, I certainly wouldn't have done something like what he did. But, just a few years earlier, say at 18, yes, I did stupid things. In his position I probably could have done what he did. At that age many "boys" brains just aren't developed enough to truly understand right and wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished. But I am saying they definitely shouldn't be punished harshly. In this case he was lucky to receive two years of probation as punishment. Something like that, or perhaps what we call "community service", is certainly more appropriate than throwing him in adult jail with hardened criminals.
- FiloSottile 12y ago
  > If they were talented coders, they could've found less destructive ways to make money. But he decided to go the greedy route. Let me guess: you are a US citizen, or anyway live in a country where developer positions abound. Well, not everyone is. Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. Also this was before Freelancer.com, before code.org. And he was a boy, he couldn't just relocate. Also, before the App Store. This is exactly the curiosity that people who enter the InfoSec world feel, coupled with real skills. Often too much skills and too little to do to start. Then you stumble upon a IRC channel and a world of challenges opens in front of you. By the way, he asked Valve to hire him. Maybe he just didn't find "less destructive ways to make money" yet. Don't judge if people are oppressed (or better, repressed) if you have never been, please, either because at that age YOU had the occasions or guidance, or because you hadn't that curiosity or talent.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. That's a legitimate programming job. Cool software rarely makes money. Cool software that makes money (game development) doesn't pay very much. Then you stumble upon a IRC channel and a world of challenges opens in front of you. A book is far more challenging, because in an IRC channel you're a fish in a small pond. Eventually you grow to be the biggest fish, or forever limit yourself to being small. What a book can't give is peer recognition. But peer recognition is a vain motive, and vanity is rarely lucrative. A book also can't answer questions, but you can use IRC or a website like stackexchange for that. If anyone reading this has personal experience flirting with blackhattery, please carefully consider what you're doing and why you're doing it. (And if you'd like someone to talk to, please feel free to shoot me an email. I'd like hearing about your experiences and your thoughts.)
    - FiloSottile 12y ago
      I think I should stress I'm speaking about young people. Peer recognition is critical when starting at that age. Also careful consideration is not exactly common. I'm in no way alleging that it is a reasonable way to go for a mature professional, but I acknowledge the charm it has for the young high-schooler that is being "taught" Excel at school and being told not to fiddle with that weird black terminal. These boys and girls should not have their lives destroyed by a harsh punishment for their curiosity, that in a different setting would have been highly rewarded. I can totally picture myself doing the same errors in different conditions. Btw, management software is a legitimate programming job of zero interest to security people. Just different curiosity fields.
- ago 12y ago
  I agree that what I did was bad, but to say that it takes no talent is just wrong. In fact some of the things were more challenging than anything I've come accross at any of my jobs (programming embedded device firmware, test automation and realtime graphics) in the last 10 years. And no, I couldn't find even a "boring" programming job where I lived. Of course I tried, I tried a lot. Really, you have no idea what kind of shithole the place I grew up at was for programmers. Still, that doesn't excuse what I did, and I'm sorry for it.
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    The past is the past. You shouldn't have to run around apologizing for the rest of your life. And I hope you feel welcome in communities like HN. You have a lot of talent. What have you been up to over the years? It'd be cool to hear about your career and life in general.
- macspoofing 12y ago
  >They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. Depends what you mean by that. In this guy's case, had he boarded the plane he would have gotten two decades in an American jail, versus two years of probation in Germany. I think he should be held accountable, but somehow, given the nature of the crime and the surrounding context, I think Germany got it right.
- Fuxy 12y ago
  You're assuming he made money. Not everybody does it for money actually his motivation was quite clear he liked the games but couldn't afford to buy them legit. A situation i can relate with given I've been in a similar one. Nowhere in this article was there a mention of hacking in order to make money.
- norswap 12y ago
  How sad it must be, to live without compassion.
lotsofmangos 12y ago
I'm also going to ask publishers for donations of older copies of technical books to send them. Not allowed to send books for UK prisoners as it contravenes their new "incentives and earned privileges scheme". Books are a luxury to be earned, apparently. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/mar/24/ban-books-prisoners-england-wales-authors http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/mar/24/ban-books-pri...
zaroth 12y ago
I think the system did quite well with Gembe all things considered... The judge sentenced him to two years' probation, citing his rough childhood and the way he had worked to turn his life around as considerations when it came to deciding on the relatively lenient punishment. The arrest at gunpoint sounds quite dramatic, but then again they let him stop for coffee and a cigarette on the way out, so this is not the typical SWAT. They did offer that it was a concurrent raid along with Sven Jaschan (author of Sasser) and they thought there was potential for a tip-off. I was cringing the whole time reading about the interrogation. I can imagine this whole thing would have ended so much worse for Gembe if he had actually gone for that job interview. Just try and compare Gembe to Weev, you might start pining for good ol Schönau im Schwarzwald.
- ago 12y ago
  You're completely right. The police were nice to me, probably because I was very cooperative. The team was about 15 people from the LKA, including the head of the cybercrime unit. I did cause a bit of a scare when I reached for the kitchen knife to cut some bread, but they quickly realized I didnt want to stab anyone. Of course I knew that I was far better off being in Germany than anywhere else, so I wasn't worried much. Overall I'm quite satisfied with how it went for me, even though it would be 4 years until the trial where I had to report to the police 3 times a week. I had the opportunity to turn my life around and get a good job. If I got put into jail neither me nor society would have been better off considering I paid a lot of taxes in the meantime and haven't done anything criminal since.
  - Fuxy 12y ago
    To be honest if find it kind of a dick move that Valve choose to have you arrested instead of making you work your ass off to make up for your mistake. It is justified what you did was illegal and not cool but they had the chance to turn it into something positive.
    - meowface 12y ago
      I don't really think so. If I was working on a game for years, only to find out someone broke into my network, planted keyloggers on lots of my computers, and stole all of the source code for my game, I'd be interested in arresting the perpetrator as well. The game was practically Gabe's second baby. Plus, there was no way Gabe could have known that Axel was 1) truly apologetic or 2) wasn't the one who also published the code publicly. And even if it was known, the fact that he shared it with friends showed that he didn't seem to care that much about protecting it. That being said, I do work in the security industry and understand that Axel's motivations weren't evil or anything. Gabe still did what he should have done.
epsylon 12y ago
I must have been following the grugq[1] way too much because all I couldn't help thinking about the massive OPSEC mistakes he did. Fortunately he was apprehended by the German Police, but things would've been way different had took that plane. [1] There's a great presentation from him on video, including analysis of OPSEC failures from other hacker groups: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaYdCdwiWU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaYdCdwiWU [2] Another timeless classic: "Don't talk to [the] police", which explains why it is never in your interest to talk to the police when you are suspected of a crime (even if you are innocent): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

cabbeer 12y ago

Sounds like a cool project. Let me know if you want some front end help.

codexon 12y ago

I don't feel sorry for malware writers. They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. And this guy also stole people's software keys. If they were talented coders, they could've found less destructive ways to make money. But he decided to go the greedy route.

NamTaf 12y ago
Why should we not treat people who make mistakes like humans if they show genuine remose and a desire to reform, such as this guy or e.g.: Kevin Mitnick? The justice system is supposed to be (in most countries, at least) to be a method of both punishment and rehibilitation. Why not find ways to assist them in completing the latter? I don't think it's particularly farfetched to expect relatively socially ostracised teenaged boys to not make the best judgement decisions right as they are developing their computer science skills. Most of them end up becoming relatively well-adjusted (within the scope of an introverted computer nerd) people so why not help them in that development?
- pekk 12y ago
  Why should we not start with black guys instead of making special exceptions for white kids committing "white collar" crimes? Why does the involvement of computers make some criminals better than others?
  - LukeB_UK 12y ago
    I see nothing in what NamTaf said that means we should be 'making special exceptions for white kids committing "white collar" crimes'. To me they're saying that we should treat anyone as a human if they show genuine remorse and a desire to change. This could apply to any crime committed by any race, any age and any gender. The fact that you throw the race card down so quickly when it comes to a discussion about crime concerns me.
  - vezzy-fnord 12y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_relative_privation "What about the people wrongfully on death row?"
  - garric 12y ago
    He's not saying that we shouldn't. But the U.S. is overwhelmingly focused on punishment, retribution, and incapacitation rather than rehabilitation. Essentially victim blaming, if you want to look at it like that. Opinion: It's going to take system-wide reform to accomplish anything meaningful.
    - paulhauggis 12y ago
      so..a person that murders an innocent person is now a victim? some people are past the point of rehabilitation and should be in prison.
      - Jtsummers 12y ago
        > some people are past the point of rehabilitation and should be in prison. If we made a serious effort of rehabilitation in the US penal system, then this might be fair. We don't. Prisoners, especially those who commit the crimes in their youth, are screwed under our current system. The younger criminals, like their non-criminal youth counterparts, just don't know or don't appreciate the options available to them regarding education and learning trade skills. We put them into an environment with other people we've given up on and somehow expect that when they get out a year or a decade later they'll be ready to reintegrate into society. They didn't have the skill set going in, and they won't have it coming out. Many of them will continue to live on the fringes of our society, perhaps making a meager living as unskilled laborers. Others will fall into a crowd that keeps them involved in crime or other "antisocial", or however you want to describe it, behavior.
Jtsummers 12y ago
> I don't feel sorry for malware writers. They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. Few people in US prisons [1] deserve what they're getting. It takes a cold-hearted prick to honestly believe what you've written. [1] While this guy wasn't, the sort of people deftnerd is talking about are.
pandatigox 12y ago
Some of the people behind bars are because they did something that was morally right but condoned by the government. While I can't argue for the guy mentioned in the article, people like Bradley Manning are wasting away their lives. Do you really don't want to help these victims?
- Jtsummers 12y ago
  I don't like doing this (replying without actually extending the conversation) but you've missed a word: morally right but not condoned by the government. ^^^
- hueving 12y ago
  How was what Chelsea Manning did morally right? Leaking that much information that could put other peoples' lives at risk isn't exactly morally right.
- codexon 12y ago
  This guy doesn't belong in the same category as Manning and Aaron Swartz.
PhantomGremlin 12y ago
The problem is that this guy was young, relatively speaking, maybe about 20. The headline calls him a "boy", so he was certainly under 21. By the time I was 21, I certainly wouldn't have done something like what he did. But, just a few years earlier, say at 18, yes, I did stupid things. In his position I probably could have done what he did. At that age many "boys" brains just aren't developed enough to truly understand right and wrong. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished. But I am saying they definitely shouldn't be punished harshly. In this case he was lucky to receive two years of probation as punishment. Something like that, or perhaps what we call "community service", is certainly more appropriate than throwing him in adult jail with hardened criminals.
FiloSottile 12y ago
> If they were talented coders, they could've found less destructive ways to make money. But he decided to go the greedy route. Let me guess: you are a US citizen, or anyway live in a country where developer positions abound. Well, not everyone is. Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. Also this was before Freelancer.com, before code.org. And he was a boy, he couldn't just relocate. Also, before the App Store. This is exactly the curiosity that people who enter the InfoSec world feel, coupled with real skills. Often too much skills and too little to do to start. Then you stumble upon a IRC channel and a world of challenges opens in front of you. By the way, he asked Valve to hire him. Maybe he just didn't find "less destructive ways to make money" yet. Don't judge if people are oppressed (or better, repressed) if you have never been, please, either because at that age YOU had the occasions or guidance, or because you hadn't that curiosity or talent.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Some people live in small towns where the cool programming positions are adapting invoice management software for small businesses. That's a legitimate programming job. Cool software rarely makes money. Cool software that makes money (game development) doesn't pay very much. Then you stumble upon a IRC channel and a world of challenges opens in front of you. A book is far more challenging, because in an IRC channel you're a fish in a small pond. Eventually you grow to be the biggest fish, or forever limit yourself to being small. What a book can't give is peer recognition. But peer recognition is a vain motive, and vanity is rarely lucrative. A book also can't answer questions, but you can use IRC or a website like stackexchange for that. If anyone reading this has personal experience flirting with blackhattery, please carefully consider what you're doing and why you're doing it. (And if you'd like someone to talk to, please feel free to shoot me an email. I'd like hearing about your experiences and your thoughts.)
  - FiloSottile 12y ago
    I think I should stress I'm speaking about young people. Peer recognition is critical when starting at that age. Also careful consideration is not exactly common. I'm in no way alleging that it is a reasonable way to go for a mature professional, but I acknowledge the charm it has for the young high-schooler that is being "taught" Excel at school and being told not to fiddle with that weird black terminal. These boys and girls should not have their lives destroyed by a harsh punishment for their curiosity, that in a different setting would have been highly rewarded. I can totally picture myself doing the same errors in different conditions. Btw, management software is a legitimate programming job of zero interest to security people. Just different curiosity fields.
ago 12y ago
I agree that what I did was bad, but to say that it takes no talent is just wrong. In fact some of the things were more challenging than anything I've come accross at any of my jobs (programming embedded device firmware, test automation and realtime graphics) in the last 10 years. And no, I couldn't find even a "boring" programming job where I lived. Of course I tried, I tried a lot. Really, you have no idea what kind of shithole the place I grew up at was for programmers. Still, that doesn't excuse what I did, and I'm sorry for it.
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  The past is the past. You shouldn't have to run around apologizing for the rest of your life. And I hope you feel welcome in communities like HN. You have a lot of talent. What have you been up to over the years? It'd be cool to hear about your career and life in general.
macspoofing 12y ago
>They are not oppressed and deserve what they got. Depends what you mean by that. In this guy's case, had he boarded the plane he would have gotten two decades in an American jail, versus two years of probation in Germany. I think he should be held accountable, but somehow, given the nature of the crime and the surrounding context, I think Germany got it right.
Fuxy 12y ago
You're assuming he made money. Not everybody does it for money actually his motivation was quite clear he liked the games but couldn't afford to buy them legit. A situation i can relate with given I've been in a similar one. Nowhere in this article was there a mention of hacking in order to make money.
norswap 12y ago
How sad it must be, to live without compassion.

lotsofmangos 12y ago

I'm also going to ask publishers for donations of older copies of technical books to send them. Not allowed to send books for UK prisoners as it contravenes their new "incentives and earned privileges scheme". Books are a luxury to be earned, apparently. http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/mar/24/ban-books-prisoners-england-wales-authors http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/mar/24/ban-books-pri...

zaroth 12y ago

I think the system did quite well with Gembe all things considered... The judge sentenced him to two years' probation, citing his rough childhood and the way he had worked to turn his life around as considerations when it came to deciding on the relatively lenient punishment. The arrest at gunpoint sounds quite dramatic, but then again they let him stop for coffee and a cigarette on the way out, so this is not the typical SWAT. They did offer that it was a concurrent raid along with Sven Jaschan (author of Sasser) and they thought there was potential for a tip-off. I was cringing the whole time reading about the interrogation. I can imagine this whole thing would have ended so much worse for Gembe if he had actually gone for that job interview. Just try and compare Gembe to Weev, you might start pining for good ol Schönau im Schwarzwald.

ago 12y ago
You're completely right. The police were nice to me, probably because I was very cooperative. The team was about 15 people from the LKA, including the head of the cybercrime unit. I did cause a bit of a scare when I reached for the kitchen knife to cut some bread, but they quickly realized I didnt want to stab anyone. Of course I knew that I was far better off being in Germany than anywhere else, so I wasn't worried much. Overall I'm quite satisfied with how it went for me, even though it would be 4 years until the trial where I had to report to the police 3 times a week. I had the opportunity to turn my life around and get a good job. If I got put into jail neither me nor society would have been better off considering I paid a lot of taxes in the meantime and haven't done anything criminal since.
- Fuxy 12y ago
  To be honest if find it kind of a dick move that Valve choose to have you arrested instead of making you work your ass off to make up for your mistake. It is justified what you did was illegal and not cool but they had the chance to turn it into something positive.
  - meowface 12y ago
    I don't really think so. If I was working on a game for years, only to find out someone broke into my network, planted keyloggers on lots of my computers, and stole all of the source code for my game, I'd be interested in arresting the perpetrator as well. The game was practically Gabe's second baby. Plus, there was no way Gabe could have known that Axel was 1) truly apologetic or 2) wasn't the one who also published the code publicly. And even if it was known, the fact that he shared it with friends showed that he didn't seem to care that much about protecting it. That being said, I do work in the security industry and understand that Axel's motivations weren't evil or anything. Gabe still did what he should have done.

epsylon 12y ago

I must have been following the grugq[1] way too much because all I couldn't help thinking about the massive OPSEC mistakes he did. Fortunately he was apprehended by the German Police, but things would've been way different had took that plane. [1] There's a great presentation from him on video, including analysis of OPSEC failures from other hacker groups: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaYdCdwiWU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XaYdCdwiWU [2] Another timeless classic: "Don't talk to [the] police", which explains why it is never in your interest to talk to the police when you are suspected of a crime (even if you are innocent): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc