6 ms·

APL – a Glimpse of Heaven (2006)

100 points by Noelkd 12y ago

skwuent 12y ago
The writing is kind of verbose.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  Hehe, that had me chuckle. I'm sorry you got downvoted, that must be by people that either did not go to the article or that don't have a clue what APL looks like in practice.
pcmonk 12y ago
"To believe that “plain language” programming would be more readable is Utopian, even intellectually dishonest. For if I say, “a linear function of a variable is equal to the sum of a constant and of the product of a variable and a second constant”, it is incontestably English but completely obscure, even incomprehensible!" This is absolutely true. People try to make a big deal out of natural language for both programming and simply interacting with computers. Rarely would a natural language description be easier, clearer, or faster than a more precise interface (e.g. text for programming, mouse/keyboard for interacing with computers).
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  If you are talking about math, sure. But then your average person would be unable to articulate much of that anyways, in English or otherwise, while professionals who are trained in this area are willing to invest in artificial languages to express it concisely. If you are talking about automating every day tasks through "code," then natural language makes perfect sense; the future their is going to be based on increasingly sophisticated dialogue systems in forms like Siri, Now, Cortana.
- taeric 12y ago
  Depends on the context, no? Natural language works great when you accept that it is far from context free. Consider "how do I get to the nearest store?" Give me that in a programming language where it is functionally better than what a person can provide? Suddenly, you'll find that you have to start adding in all sorts of additional information that is just assumed otherwise. And, it is not like this is unique to language. Even in math, one often finds a certain lack of precision that is accepted and more cumbersome to work with than without. Or, mayhap I just misunderstand more than I understand. :) Very likely. Edit: There is also the issue of a terrible example. If I were to explain a linear function to someone, I would say more that it is a function where the output changes in constant proportion to changes of the input.
- jzwinck 12y ago
  Of course you wouldn't write it all out like that in any programming language. But instead of writing code like this: y = a * x + b You could write code like this: height = slope * run + ground It may not be helpful to write out simple math using colloquial language, but it can be helpful to future maintainers if your variables have meaningful names. Calling it "a variable" instead of "a" is not useful, but calling it "slope" can be.
jamesaguilar 12y ago
But only if you have the digital flexibility of a monkey. That said, this is always worth watching as a demo of the language's power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4. I'm not afraid to admit that I wish my language could do that.
- aidos 12y ago
  This is one of my favourite coding videos and everyone should watch it. It's nice to see it again having read through a description of how APL works.
  - lokedhs 12y ago
    f you want to try it in your browser without having to send each command to the server for evaluation: http://baruchel.hd.free.fr/apps/apl/ http://baruchel.hd.free.fr/apps/apl/
- akkartik 12y ago
  Oh, this is cool: http://tryapl.org http://tryapl.org
jacquesm 12y ago
If you like APL or are in general interested in material like this then you should definitely check out the J language (which is sort of the successor to APL). http://www.jsoftware.com/ http://www.jsoftware.com/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_%28programming_language%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_%28programming_language%29
jbclements 12y ago
From a PL standpoint: 1) APL clearly made good use of an extensive symbol set. Now that many languages support unicode, this is totally do-able. 2) APL is in love with overloading. It's not totally my cup of tea, but you could definitely fit this into many modern languages. 3) I see a whole lot of MATLAB in there. 4) Did... this article actually define any functions at all? Perhaps I missed this. 5) It looks you could easily implement APL as a DSL within an existing language with an extensible parser. Racket, for instance.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  re. 4) Yes it did, about 1/3 in: ∇ R ← Average V [1] R ← (+/V)÷(⍴V) ∇
- avmich 12y ago
  3) More correctly would be to say that MATLAB has a whole lot of APL. APL is one of the oldest languages, being developed in 50's. 5) You'll perhaps lose some power. Notation is important - check Ken Iverson's Turing lecture.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- kd0amg 12y ago
  5) It looks you could easily implement APL as a DSL within an existing language with an extensible parser. Racket, for instance. I'm working on something along these lines, but not planning on keeping the APL/J-like syntax (the many meanings of juxtaposition makes parsing a line depend on the run time values attached to names). You can get more of the core idea of APL out of prop:procedure than out of extensible parsing.
  - michaelfeathers 12y ago
    I've been doing something similar as a gem to add J commands to Ruby: https://github.com/michaelfeathers/jop https://github.com/michaelfeathers/jop The fluent interface is likely to win because I don't want to implement hook and fork.
wtallis 12y ago
I've dabbled in J, and it's left me with a permanent sense of slight disillusionment with regards to every other numerical programming language I've used. It seems mind-boggling that NumPy, MATLAB, and even Julia lack the versatile broadcasting rules of APL family languages. In J, if you write a simple function that composes several built-in operators, your function is fully vectorized and can act on lists and arrays properly, and even arrays of arrays. In MATLAB, the same function stands a pretty good chance of only accepting scalar inputs unless you put extra effort into making it vectorized, and almost certainly won't do the right thing when given higher-dimensional arrays. Julia seems to likewise default to being mostly scalar-oriented, and only makes it less painful by having efficient JIT, but still lacks the expressiveness advantage.
- shele 12y ago
  I am still optimistic about Julia in this regard. That phantom limb pain after having used J is there, but the nice thing is that Julia is very extensible, for example hopefully soon infrastructure to cast a 2x4x4 array into a length 4 vector of 2x4 arrays without copying memory will be implemented which is an important step forward to mimic APL style programming if you think about it.
- sitkack 12y ago
  And this broadcasting mechanism seems very amenable to fusion and targeting of GPU resources. Perhaps Julia could add broadcast, kinda like a list comprehension.
realo 12y ago
I did quite a bit of APL programming when I was younger. When describing APL, people talk about the strange symbols, the mathematics, etc... but I have never seen anyone describe something I only realized after some time: APL makes you approach problems quite differently, when you are familiar with it. I stopped thinking in 'steps' applied to the individual data points, but rather I solved the problem in my head (and writing the line along the way) by aggregating the data points into larger data objects, and then letting the data objects expand in a many-dimension universe, always larger and larger... and then I simply looked at the resulting mega-thing from a different angle, and started crushing it back along different dimensions until I finally got my answer (and my line completed). The resulting one-liner was very hard to read ... but gave me the correct result. Inflation, Change of view-point, Big Crush. That is the core of APL. Yeah I know... sounds crazy. But that was how APL programming felt to me, and I bet I am not alone. No other language I worked with ever triggered in me that kind of mental problem-solving process.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  So what I'd like to know is how that "quite different" approach to problems differs from the standard mathematician approach? I've been playing with J lately. I've also been a longtime numpy user, going back to the days when it was still numarray. Maybe I'm just writing numpy in J, but I find that my approach in both languages is more or less identical: set up a vector, do some matrix operations, maybe some statistical aggregates, write down the answer. Can you provide an example for which the APL approach is significantly different from what one would normally do? It might help me understand what insights I'm supposed to gain.
  - pjc50 12y ago
    It's quite similar to the standard mathematician approach. It's extremely different from the standard (imperative-trained) programmer approach. (Note your use of "write down the answer": this is a giveaway that you understand it so well that you're not even aware of your understanding, and might therefore find it hard to explain)
- sitkack 12y ago
jjfine 12y ago
All I could think of while reading this was, how am I supposed to type all those weird characters?
- lokedhs 12y ago
  You can use Emacs: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnu-apl-mode https://github.com/lokedhs/gnu-apl-mode Yes, I'm advertising my own work here.
  - z0r 12y ago
    I set this up two days ago. Haven't learned APL yet, but your mode will help, thanks!
  - DonGateley 12y ago
    Lazy query: do you do overstrikes? The keyboard one has to commit to memory is _so_ much smaller.
    - lokedhs 12y ago
      No, I don't do that. I didn't find it very hard to learn the full APL keyboard. That said, it should be easy to make a Quail-based input method for it. If you could provide me with a list of the necessary combinations to generate the APL symbols, I could help you out in making it.
ritonlajoie 12y ago
I have an issue with APL. My grandfather who is a researcher in forest science (sorry English is not my main language), made his own software in APL to manage his own forest. Now, he is becoming old, and trying to get me to get the software, and to understand it for when he will pass. The thing is, I'm a C++ dev professionally, but whenever I see his code in APL, I cringe. I can't get to make him understand that building what is basically a dynamic spreadsheet in APL is kind of complicated for me, coming from an OO side of programming. Also, that's the only language he knows. I have a hard time telling him that all the work he did and still does in APL (I guess now there are like thousands of lines) will just go to trash and my uncles will just use Excel to do that when they'll take over the forest business. Edit: I have another issue with DyalogAPL. When my grandfather sends me a workspace , I can't open it because DyalogAPL is not that much backward compatible ! So if we don't have the exact same version, I just can't open his workspace. It's 2014 , damn !
- TheZenPsycho 12y ago
  Man, I hope when I have grandchildren, they won't want to throw a bundle of my life's work in the trash. Maybe github instead?
  - ritonlajoie 12y ago
    Well, I don't want to... but I have no time nor real interest in trying to understand what he did in APL. My only issue is that he is not interested in hearing from me that nobody will take over what he did.. He won't listen ;( He thinks everything else sucks.. I tried to make him read some stuff about python for example. He said this sucked also ! lol
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      Consider the possibility that what your grandfather tells you might actually be true.
gaius 12y ago
He is missing the middle generation - he jumps straight from the 70s (mainframe) to the 90s (Internet) while missing the people like me who grew up with 8-bit systems in the 80s.
beagle3 12y ago
Another descendent of APL is the K programming language from Arthur Whitney (whose One page APL interpreter inspired the J implementation) I would say that K:J is like C:C++ in terms of complexity (not of heritage). I personally prefer the K and C to J and C++ but to each their own.

100 points by Noelkd 12y ago

skwuent 12y ago

The writing is kind of verbose.

jacquesm 12y ago
Hehe, that had me chuckle. I'm sorry you got downvoted, that must be by people that either did not go to the article or that don't have a clue what APL looks like in practice.

pcmonk 12y ago

"To believe that “plain language” programming would be more readable is Utopian, even intellectually dishonest. For if I say, “a linear function of a variable is equal to the sum of a constant and of the product of a variable and a second constant”, it is incontestably English but completely obscure, even incomprehensible!" This is absolutely true. People try to make a big deal out of natural language for both programming and simply interacting with computers. Rarely would a natural language description be easier, clearer, or faster than a more precise interface (e.g. text for programming, mouse/keyboard for interacing with computers).

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
If you are talking about math, sure. But then your average person would be unable to articulate much of that anyways, in English or otherwise, while professionals who are trained in this area are willing to invest in artificial languages to express it concisely. If you are talking about automating every day tasks through "code," then natural language makes perfect sense; the future their is going to be based on increasingly sophisticated dialogue systems in forms like Siri, Now, Cortana.
taeric 12y ago
Depends on the context, no? Natural language works great when you accept that it is far from context free. Consider "how do I get to the nearest store?" Give me that in a programming language where it is functionally better than what a person can provide? Suddenly, you'll find that you have to start adding in all sorts of additional information that is just assumed otherwise. And, it is not like this is unique to language. Even in math, one often finds a certain lack of precision that is accepted and more cumbersome to work with than without. Or, mayhap I just misunderstand more than I understand. :) Very likely. Edit: There is also the issue of a terrible example. If I were to explain a linear function to someone, I would say more that it is a function where the output changes in constant proportion to changes of the input.
jzwinck 12y ago
Of course you wouldn't write it all out like that in any programming language. But instead of writing code like this: y = a * x + b You could write code like this: height = slope * run + ground It may not be helpful to write out simple math using colloquial language, but it can be helpful to future maintainers if your variables have meaningful names. Calling it "a variable" instead of "a" is not useful, but calling it "slope" can be.

jamesaguilar 12y ago

But only if you have the digital flexibility of a monkey. That said, this is always worth watching as a demo of the language's power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xAKttWgP4. I'm not afraid to admit that I wish my language could do that.

aidos 12y ago
This is one of my favourite coding videos and everyone should watch it. It's nice to see it again having read through a description of how APL works.
- lokedhs 12y ago
  f you want to try it in your browser without having to send each command to the server for evaluation: http://baruchel.hd.free.fr/apps/apl/ http://baruchel.hd.free.fr/apps/apl/
akkartik 12y ago
Oh, this is cool: http://tryapl.org http://tryapl.org

jacquesm 12y ago

If you like APL or are in general interested in material like this then you should definitely check out the J language (which is sort of the successor to APL). http://www.jsoftware.com/ http://www.jsoftware.com/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_%28programming_language%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J_%28programming_language%29

jbclements 12y ago

From a PL standpoint: 1) APL clearly made good use of an extensive symbol set. Now that many languages support unicode, this is totally do-able. 2) APL is in love with overloading. It's not totally my cup of tea, but you could definitely fit this into many modern languages. 3) I see a whole lot of MATLAB in there. 4) Did... this article actually define any functions at all? Perhaps I missed this. 5) It looks you could easily implement APL as a DSL within an existing language with an extensible parser. Racket, for instance.

jacquesm 12y ago
re. 4) Yes it did, about 1/3 in: ∇ R ← Average V [1] R ← (+/V)÷(⍴V) ∇
avmich 12y ago
3) More correctly would be to say that MATLAB has a whole lot of APL. APL is one of the oldest languages, being developed in 50's. 5) You'll perhaps lose some power. Notation is important - check Ken Iverson's Turing lecture.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
kd0amg 12y ago
5) It looks you could easily implement APL as a DSL within an existing language with an extensible parser. Racket, for instance. I'm working on something along these lines, but not planning on keeping the APL/J-like syntax (the many meanings of juxtaposition makes parsing a line depend on the run time values attached to names). You can get more of the core idea of APL out of prop:procedure than out of extensible parsing.
- michaelfeathers 12y ago
  I've been doing something similar as a gem to add J commands to Ruby: https://github.com/michaelfeathers/jop https://github.com/michaelfeathers/jop The fluent interface is likely to win because I don't want to implement hook and fork.

wtallis 12y ago

I've dabbled in J, and it's left me with a permanent sense of slight disillusionment with regards to every other numerical programming language I've used. It seems mind-boggling that NumPy, MATLAB, and even Julia lack the versatile broadcasting rules of APL family languages. In J, if you write a simple function that composes several built-in operators, your function is fully vectorized and can act on lists and arrays properly, and even arrays of arrays. In MATLAB, the same function stands a pretty good chance of only accepting scalar inputs unless you put extra effort into making it vectorized, and almost certainly won't do the right thing when given higher-dimensional arrays. Julia seems to likewise default to being mostly scalar-oriented, and only makes it less painful by having efficient JIT, but still lacks the expressiveness advantage.

shele 12y ago
I am still optimistic about Julia in this regard. That phantom limb pain after having used J is there, but the nice thing is that Julia is very extensible, for example hopefully soon infrastructure to cast a 2x4x4 array into a length 4 vector of 2x4 arrays without copying memory will be implemented which is an important step forward to mimic APL style programming if you think about it.
sitkack 12y ago
And this broadcasting mechanism seems very amenable to fusion and targeting of GPU resources. Perhaps Julia could add broadcast, kinda like a list comprehension.

realo 12y ago

I did quite a bit of APL programming when I was younger. When describing APL, people talk about the strange symbols, the mathematics, etc... but I have never seen anyone describe something I only realized after some time: APL makes you approach problems quite differently, when you are familiar with it. I stopped thinking in 'steps' applied to the individual data points, but rather I solved the problem in my head (and writing the line along the way) by aggregating the data points into larger data objects, and then letting the data objects expand in a many-dimension universe, always larger and larger... and then I simply looked at the resulting mega-thing from a different angle, and started crushing it back along different dimensions until I finally got my answer (and my line completed). The resulting one-liner was very hard to read ... but gave me the correct result. Inflation, Change of view-point, Big Crush. That is the core of APL. Yeah I know... sounds crazy. But that was how APL programming felt to me, and I bet I am not alone. No other language I worked with ever triggered in me that kind of mental problem-solving process.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
So what I'd like to know is how that "quite different" approach to problems differs from the standard mathematician approach? I've been playing with J lately. I've also been a longtime numpy user, going back to the days when it was still numarray. Maybe I'm just writing numpy in J, but I find that my approach in both languages is more or less identical: set up a vector, do some matrix operations, maybe some statistical aggregates, write down the answer. Can you provide an example for which the APL approach is significantly different from what one would normally do? It might help me understand what insights I'm supposed to gain.
- pjc50 12y ago
  It's quite similar to the standard mathematician approach. It's extremely different from the standard (imperative-trained) programmer approach. (Note your use of "write down the answer": this is a giveaway that you understand it so well that you're not even aware of your understanding, and might therefore find it hard to explain)
sitkack 12y ago

jjfine 12y ago

All I could think of while reading this was, how am I supposed to type all those weird characters?

lokedhs 12y ago
You can use Emacs: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnu-apl-mode https://github.com/lokedhs/gnu-apl-mode Yes, I'm advertising my own work here.
- z0r 12y ago
  I set this up two days ago. Haven't learned APL yet, but your mode will help, thanks!
- DonGateley 12y ago
  Lazy query: do you do overstrikes? The keyboard one has to commit to memory is _so_ much smaller.
  - lokedhs 12y ago
    No, I don't do that. I didn't find it very hard to learn the full APL keyboard. That said, it should be easy to make a Quail-based input method for it. If you could provide me with a list of the necessary combinations to generate the APL symbols, I could help you out in making it.

ritonlajoie 12y ago

I have an issue with APL. My grandfather who is a researcher in forest science (sorry English is not my main language), made his own software in APL to manage his own forest. Now, he is becoming old, and trying to get me to get the software, and to understand it for when he will pass. The thing is, I'm a C++ dev professionally, but whenever I see his code in APL, I cringe. I can't get to make him understand that building what is basically a dynamic spreadsheet in APL is kind of complicated for me, coming from an OO side of programming. Also, that's the only language he knows. I have a hard time telling him that all the work he did and still does in APL (I guess now there are like thousands of lines) will just go to trash and my uncles will just use Excel to do that when they'll take over the forest business. Edit: I have another issue with DyalogAPL. When my grandfather sends me a workspace , I can't open it because DyalogAPL is not that much backward compatible ! So if we don't have the exact same version, I just can't open his workspace. It's 2014 , damn !

TheZenPsycho 12y ago
Man, I hope when I have grandchildren, they won't want to throw a bundle of my life's work in the trash. Maybe github instead?
- ritonlajoie 12y ago
  Well, I don't want to... but I have no time nor real interest in trying to understand what he did in APL. My only issue is that he is not interested in hearing from me that nobody will take over what he did.. He won't listen ;( He thinks everything else sucks.. I tried to make him read some stuff about python for example. He said this sucked also ! lol
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    Consider the possibility that what your grandfather tells you might actually be true.

gaius 12y ago

He is missing the middle generation - he jumps straight from the 70s (mainframe) to the 90s (Internet) while missing the people like me who grew up with 8-bit systems in the 80s.

beagle3 12y ago

Another descendent of APL is the K programming language from Arthur Whitney (whose One page APL interpreter inspired the J implementation) I would say that K:J is like C:C++ in terms of complexity (not of heritage). I personally prefer the K and C to J and C++ but to each their own.