14 ms·

Surface Pro 3

351 points by ismavis 12y ago

instaheat 12y ago
I'm not too sure about that drafting board profile. Having not seen the device in person, at that angle it looks like it might break. Is there some form of support running along that line?
- lstamour 12y ago
  The hinge actually looks quite sturdy to me: http://www.wpcentral.com/sites/wpcentral.com/files/styles/large_wm_blb/public/field/image/2014/05/Surface_Pro_3_hinge_pen.jpg?itok=SO_sLsIt http://www.wpcentral.com/sites/wpcentral.com/files/styles/la...
kgermino 12y ago
I think this shows how dedicated the Surface Pro team at Microsoft is to making a rock solid product. Yes there's issues with branding, Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once, and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years; but I think the total focus on making the experience as good as possible combined with Microsoft's budget and a little time will yield very impressive results. I certainly hope so. I love the vision of the Surface Pro with a good dock. A single device that can be docked with monitors and a real keyboard/mouse, used as a laptop or carried as a tablet would make an awesome machine. It seems they are there in principle right now but need some time to get it polished enough to be usable for most. Too soon to count Microsoft out regardless.
- justin66 12y ago
  > Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once That is a very, very generous description of Windows 8. edit: it is amusing to me that THIS is the first comment I've made that some clique decided to go medieval on.
  - edias 12y ago
    Windows 8 really isn't that bad. I avoided it like the plague when it was first released mainly due to the lack of start menu but between the 8.1 update and classic shell maturing a bit, I basically see it as a faster Windows 7 (especially start up on an SSD). I have some minor complaints but so long as I never have to enter the metro UI I've been pretty happy with it overall.
    - justin66 12y ago
      I see what you're saying but there's no "never show me anything Metro, ever" checkbox, and for me that's a problem. I've got a Lenovo touchpad and the user experience over the months has involved learning not to accidentally make all the myriad gestures that cause Windows 8 to do something stupid. I keep discovering new ones, I think in part due to the 8.1 update. Perhaps that's not why, it's hard to say. This is all a purely negative process for me: trying to keep the PC from doing something I don't want it to do. Apparently driver writers and Microsoft don't want to give you an official "make this trackpad not act stupid" option, either, last I checked.
      - edias 12y ago
        How much time have you tried customizing it to your liking? I couldn't stand Windows 8 before some serious tweaking, which don't get me wrong is a massive design flaw, but if you don't mind using some 3rd party software you can basically achieve the "never show me anything metro, ever" checkbox. Definitely check out classic shell[1] if you haven't yet, I wouldn't be using Win8 if it didn't exist. Also you'll find plenty of guides to turning off charm bars/ gestures/hot corners and whatever other UI trickery Windows 8 brought us. [1]http://www.classicshell.net/ http://www.classicshell.net/
        justin66 12y ago
        The funny thing is, I actually don't have as huge a problem with the shell or lack of classic menus as some people do. I can just pile shortcuts onto the desktop like all my install programs want to do anyway. It really is the touchpad for me that's the huge annoyance, and dealing with the UI to make wifi work properly, which I guess is a Metro gripe. The last time I checked, the touchpad thing required registry tweaking and positive results were not at all guaranteed. Whoever decided that the touchpad, of all things, should sorta-kinda try to incorporate the same gestures as the touchscreen (maybe? I have a touchscreen but barely use it) was probably guilty of huffing gasoline.
- rasz_pl 12y ago
  ...rock solid product.. notice the number 3 in the name of said product? and still not good enough. Not to mention UI lags. 2014 and GUI is lagging. Someone needs to get shot.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    Notice he didn't say it WAS a rock solid product, he said they were dedicated to making it one. It isn't surprising it has issues; the Surface line is a little less than 2 years old. The iPhone wasn't polished from day one; it took them a few years too. I don't think it was until the end of the 3G, somewhere around the iPhone 4, where the iPhone was generally accepted as a well-polished product. Which, I might add, was a timespan of ~3 years.
  - x3sphere 12y ago
    Not surprising. The MBP Retina suffers from such lag as well, unless you go for the top of the line model with the dedicated graphics card. 2160X1440 res is too much for these integrated chips to handle.
    - LeafyGreenbriar 12y ago
      In my experience that was only true of the Ivy Bridge models. I've used both the 13 & 15 inch Haswell Pros, and neither seems to have any appreciable GUI lag, with the possible exception of scrolling/resizing sites with very complex layouts in Chrome.
    - dangrossman 12y ago
      If the higher end model uses one of the i7's with Intel's Iris graphics (still an integrated GPU), it'll have no problem. I have one powering my 2560x1440 laptop connected to another external monitor, and it drives both screens in native-res games just fine. It's more capable than the discrete ATI Radeon was in my older i5 laptop. It's also an Ultrabook (0.6"), so the same chip shouldn't have any size/thermal issues with being stuffed in an SP.
    - saratogacx 12y ago
      OSX has some really odd lag issues with the UI and responsiveness. I'm running my lenovo win Win8 dual monitor on the 1377x768 & 2560x1440 external monitor and I don't see any UI lag. This is on an older Intel HD3000 integrated chip. My 13" MBP from the same time lags even if I'm using just the built in screen.
- nivla 12y ago
  >and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years I think they know exactly where things are going to in the next five years, yet they will try their best to arrive late. Remember the MS Courier? I believe the future is going to be a hybrid of mobile and desktop. Its already happening with the web and other OSes especially Win8 and Ubuntu (Ubuntu mobile that turns into a full fledged desktop when docked in). So technically MS is on the right track, they are just a bit too early - 70's Groovy in the mid 60's. The biggest gripe I have with them is that sometimes they make something very good and then mess up something very little in a very noticeable way. Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature. I have the Surface Pro I and its perfect for my needs except when I am out of wifi or need directions. Just put in a GPS and 4G already. I have waited for 2 iterations now.
  - MBCook 12y ago
    > Remember the MS Courier? It was never a product, it was a concept. This, by the way, is why it's a bad idea to show everyone your concepts. They will hold them against you for years.
    - nivla 12y ago
      I was talking about MS have the right idea but failing to go though with it. MS Courier concept was introduced well before the iPad, suggesting someone there believed that it was going to be the future but they ended up killing it before the board din't agree to it. Similarly, they were already working on a voice assistant called "Tell Me" even before Siri was introduced by Apple [1]. A lot of people think MS doesn't come up with great ideas but its quite the opposite. They just fail to execute it in a timely manner or require a few iterations to get it perfect. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6pWs46GY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6pWs46GY8
      - ghshephard 12y ago
        Ideas are cheap, execution is everything. You said it yourself, "MS Courier" was a concept - it wasn't actually a product. Your average gifted 13 year old can come up with a lot of great concepts, the challenge is in actually creating them. Even Apple is running into this - Siri requires a rock solid Wireless connection, without it, Siri no longer works, which kind of defeats the purpose of a mobile voice assistant.
- codeulike 12y ago
  A single USB3 port can be used to dock to keyboard, mouse, monitor and ethernet - thats what I do with my Surface Pro 1. Just needed a few cheap hubs and adapters. A proper dock would be nice but its not strictly necessary.
  - TTPrograms 12y ago
    Plus power. That means two cables! That's literally double the number of things I should need to plug in. I hate to admit that this actually bothers me. It's true of all laptops, though.
    - shanselman 12y ago
      The new Lenovos have a "one dock" plug that does USB, video, and power on one plug. It's lovely.
      - TTPrograms 12y ago
        Yet another reason for my next laptop to be a Lenovo...
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - Too 12y ago
        Last time I saw a USB dock with video the video performance was really poor, max 30hz at 720p etc... Do you have any experience of how these work?
        jrockway 12y ago
        I'm guessing the dock is Thunderbolt, since Intel CPUs support it directly, and it does video, USB, and power.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- _broody 12y ago
  It's already yielded impressive results for me. I bought a SP1 at a big discount, hoping to use it only for digital artwork. I didn't have my hopes too high, as I was aware of all the criticism it had drawn (though honestly, the tech press of today is utterly ridiculous. There's a couple of holdouts of excellent coverage, but for the most part it's comprised of a frothing band of gadget fanboys). I didn't expect to end up loving the SP1 so much. I'll never be able to go back to a tablet without split-screen multitasking, or to a small laptop without touchscreen and stylus input. Everything else feels incredibly rudimentary in comparison. The first-generation SP has a good deal of flaws, but none of them have been dealbreakers for me. This is the first device I've truly loved so thoroughly, ever. It feels like it's truly pushing the envelope.
  - silverbax88 12y ago
    the blunt truth is Windows 8 is excellent for a mobile/tablet OS, and absolutely horrible as a desktop OS. So Microsoft needs to just get it's act together and put out/fix/resolve the Desktop OS and focus the tiled OS on mobile and THEN they might be able to gain ground.
ChuckMcM 12y ago
Being left handed I wouldn't have the problem Gabe does, instead I'd be activating a half dozen tools on the left margin of the screen. I appreciate the 'wrist' input for the JOT stylus which lets you tell it where you rest your hand normally. I'll definitely try out the SP3, and I'm still trying to get my hands on a Samsung Note Pro (12" tab). The screen is what I crave, a 12" 3:2 aspect ratio screen with 2160 x 1440 feels pretty close to ideal in this form factor.
- ygra 12y ago
  The touch screen itself would be disabled when you use the pen. It's just that the Windows button on the right side is a hardware button (just touch, too) and doesn't disable itself like the rest of the screen.
  - jdmichal 12y ago
    I'd imagine one of the "special options" he's going to be getting from MS is a version which does exactly that; disable the home button with the pen input.
    - cmelbye 12y ago
      That sounds like it should hopefully be a software fix.
    - codeulike 12y ago
      Yeah that should be fixable in software - the screen itself can detect and ignore palms
- deleted 12y ago
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morbius 12y ago
I've been a believer in the Surface concept since the beginning. I'd bought a Surface 2 last year and was blown away by just how unique and incredibly inventive the design was. The 16:9 screen and the lack of power really suffered it, though... But like the MacBook Air, three generations in, and it looks like this is going to be Microsoft's Hail Mary. I preordered one.
- listic 12y ago
  Do you think 3 will be really better than the 2? I'm still waiting for my 2 and I'm not convinced. I'm going to try to "upgrade" from a 12" ThinkPad X series and I really liked that the screen size is smaller. All the other changes don't necessarily feel like an upgrade to me, too.
  - lstamour 12y ago
    Every time I used my Surface Pro (1st gen), I lamented that the screen wasn't bigger. You really feel like you're missing a third of possible screen real estate. Hence why I'm excited about the 3:2 aspect ratio. I always figured the Chromebook Pixel was on to something ;-)
    - listic 12y ago
      I don't know, I'm using a 12" Thinkpad X and I feel like I could bear if the screen would be a tad smaller, so I was excited about a prospect of a 10.6" tablet/laptop. I guess, I'll wait and see: Surrface Pro 3's are not going anywhere, not sure about the older models. Unlike Thinkpads, I'm afraid Microsoft made not very many of these. Sorry for the accessories though: the innovative things like Freedomcase just started to appear for the old form factor. http://www.freedomcase.com/ http://www.freedomcase.com/
jodrellblank 12y ago
2014, Intel Core i5, SSD and stutters when 'browsing files' in PS. shakes head
- lstamour 12y ago
  I don't know if that says more about the Surface or Photoshop...
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  Wait, is this a criticism of Surface, SSDs, or PS? Have you used Adobe products lately? I can't imagine how they could be any more bloaty.
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  Probably because there's no magic in how they made it so thin for an Intel machine - they just underclocked it a ton in order to achieve a minimal TDP and not need huge air vents, free space and fans.
  - codeulike 12y ago
    it has fans
- dpcan 12y ago
  This was the show stopper comment for me. I was somewhat considering this for my back-and-forth home and office computer. But the thought of ANY stutter for the price I'd be paying keeps me in line to get a regular laptop. It's heavier, but once it's plopped down on a desk and I need it to WORK, the weight factor is gone. For those looking for more of a working "Tablet", well, maybe it's a different story.
- teamonkey 12y ago
  My work PC is an 8-core Xeon beast with 12GB of RAM, a 2GB GPU, a SSD and Photoshop still lags while browsing files.
- prawn 12y ago
  I bought a retina MBP soon after they were announced, I have an SSD and Photoshop feels very average most of the time.
carlio 12y ago
Gabe has written some very complimentary things about the Surface in the past, it's no wonder they're eager to hear his opinions and tell him what he wants to hear. "Yes Mr Gabe, we really like artists, like a whole bunch. Please write some more nice things!" I feel a little cynical by saying this, but does Microsoft really care about artists as much as they care about the audience they're reaching via Penny Arcade?
- bignaj 12y ago
  I think you're being downvoted because of tone. I don't have enough karma to downvote but my feedback is that sometimes extreme cynicism makes HN not so fun to read. Cheer up, it's Friday before Memorial Day weekend!
- FreezerburnV 12y ago
  Does it really matter if they care about artists or not in this case? In order for them to get good publicity to the audience of Penny Arcade, they have to cater to artists. (assuming you aren't cynical enough to believe that Gabe is just a shill for Microsoft, which he likely is not) If Surface 4 comes out and they don't fix any of the issues Gabe has mentioned, and they send him one to review, he'll point out that things were not fixed, and they were obviously not listening. I think at that point it would be valid to say they don't care, but the way things are described, it does sound like they're trying to improve the product, at least for the specific niche Gabe occupies.
  - hagbardgroup 12y ago
    Remember "I'm a Mac / I'm a PC?" The loyalty that Apple built up among creative professionals has under-girded their entire brand. If you were Microsoft, and you saw a chance to knock some of those people loose, wouldn't you work like hell to make that happen? This would also be an example of MS improving its touch in terms of attempting to persuade people about Surface. Rather than just repeating over and over about how great [tabletX] is and how a celebrity they've paid to endorse it just loves it (see HP's disastrous TV campaigns for their tablets), they're letting an influential guy use it, review it, and criticize it publicly. The critical bits are what make it more effective as commercial messaging for MS' particular purposes at this moment. If Gabe were shilling they would pay him directly to shill and it would be marked as an ad (which PA has done many times before for many companies). In this case, that's probably not happening.
coreymgilmore 12y ago
Very well written review. I myself was worried about the switch to N-trig (having dealt with a few products in the past), but I glad to hear it is a non-issue. To me, the additional size is great. While I like the portability of a tablet, having the extra screen real-estate makes me more productive and thus worth the trade off of a larger physical size device. I think MS's third attempt at a tablet is finally the tablet/laptop/combo that I have been waiting for.
lstamour 12y ago
My only worry with buying the Surface Pro 3 is how I was burned by the Surface Pro 2 late last year when I got an original Surface Pro early last year. Very much like the iPad, they seem to be releasing new Surfii every 6-9 months. Since this model isn't available at launch with the i7 and only has Intel 4400 graphics, I expect early next year to see a bump in specs, perhaps Intel 5100 (or better) graphics by next March? Which has me wondering if I should buy now or hold off. If they had the ntrig bluetooth pen with OneNote integration in a smaller form factor for cheaper, I'd buy that first right now and wait for the larger device to get a bump in performance. That said, no question -- if you want OneNote for school in September or can afford to upgrade once a year, buy now. The only thing I wish it had was a touch-optimized terminal app with tabs ;-)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Should you wait? Just answer the question, "Does it meet my needs?". If you aren't going to use it to draw in Photoshop (for example), it may not make a lick of difference whether you have the i7, or which graphics chip it has.
  - lstamour 12y ago
    It is equally true that the smoothest ink experience is within Microsoft apps such as OneNote. And so, by far, it should have enough performance for note-taking regardless... Well, at worst Microsoft does have a return policy :)
smrtinsert 12y ago
3:2 I need this so badly. I hope they solve the lag and handedness issues I really want to love this device.
- rplnt 12y ago
  Finally. A step in the right direction. Wide screen on small desktop-like devices is just stupid. It's OK on tablets and such, but on notebooks? Why anyone thought it's a good idea?
  - mikevm 12y ago
    I don't think 16:9 is good on anything, not even for movies. Heck, movies are usually shot in a much wider format anyway. On tablets and small devices it's even worse. There's a reason why Apple used 4:3 on the iPod -- it's because they're actually thoughtful and pay a lot of attention to the design and use cases of their products, unlike Samsung and others who simply slap together whatever's cheaper (AFAIK 16:9 panels are more cost effective for them) and shove it at consumers.
  - vacri 12y ago
    16:9 means panels can also be used in TV hardware, and you can standardise your tooling. This is why the common 'decent' midsize computer monitor has fallen from 1920x1200 to 1920x1080, because the latter has 16:9 panels that can be used in TVs.
nileshtrivedi 12y ago
People have been able to run Ubuntu on Surface Pro 2 but it took some effort (custom kernel etc). If this has improved and if the new Surface pro can dual-boot Ubuntu without any issues, I'd definitely buy one. The hardware concept is too tempting.
- listic 12y ago
  I'm waiting for my 2 to use with Ubuntu. Totally unconvinced whether "3" is an upgrade to "2". Don't get fooled by numbers, look at what matters.
- noisy_boy 12y ago
  I've always wondered what stops MS for making it easier for Linux to be installed on their products. There will always be a class of people who will stick with Windows and they don't/won't care about Linux compatibility anyway. So nothing to lose there. Then there is the un-captured "technical/Linux user" segment to whom they can sell Surface so thats more devices sold. Unless they are making a loss on the device just to push Windows - even then, at least this segment would appreciate the quality of the device (and this segment tends to care about/be more loyal to quality) which is the kind of impression you want to make on people. If nothing else, that is a good to have thing for future devices.
hyperliner 12y ago
It has to be really frustrating to be an engineer working on Surface and having to deal with the HN echo chamber, or MS bashing (some from Apple fanboys), or totally unrelated comments. Maybe it should be a rule that these folks below post their own product for review. Hopefully they have something significant that can be open to critique. Of course, that would not be too much fun. - nivla: "Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature." - rasz_pl: "...rock solid product.. notice the number 3 in the name of said product? and still not good enough. Not to mention UI lags. 2014 and GUI is lagging. Someone needs to get shot." - justin66 "> Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once That is a very, very generous description of Windows 8." - jodrellblank: "2014, Intel Core i5, SSD and stutters when 'browsing files' in PS. shakes head" - carlio: "I feel a little cynical by saying this, but does Microsoft really care about artists as much as they care about the audience they're reaching via Penny Arcade?" - enraged_camel: "It's the execution that is lacking significantly. I've always said that Microsoft is really, really good at engineering, and really, really bad at UX and usability. After reading Gabe's review, I'm disappointed that this is still the case." [EDIT: Software to "product" + line breaks]
- HNJohnC 12y ago
  In fairness, just the single fact that they put a button exactly where the hand needs to go when actually using the product in one of it's core use-cases is a pretty good excuse for some MS bashing. They could have taken 5 minutes, given the prototype to an artist and noticed the hand placement issue immediately. You can be an apologist if you wish, but I don't know how you can excuse such a glaring failure of design.
  - shurcooL 12y ago
    Saying that it's a "failure of design" suggests there's an easy non-failure alternative. If so, can you tell us what it is? Are you sure that solution won't fail under some conditions? People like to take something that exists, take the problems it solves as a given, and act like all that's left is fixing the problems remaining. That's not how it works.
localhost 12y ago
Looks like the Core i7 version is the i7-4650U model, with HD5000 graphics. Details in Ed Bott's article: http://www.zdnet.com/which-cpus-will-you-find-in-the-surface-pro-3-7000029820/ http://www.zdnet.com/which-cpus-will-you-find-in-the-surface... Link to Intel specs: http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/Intel-Core-i7-4650U-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_30-GHz http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/Intel-Core-i7-4650U-Proc...
- Deinos 12y ago
  Just saw that at neowin. Very tempted with the i7 now. I wonder how that will affect battery life.
  - JBiserkov 12y ago
    From what I understand, it should actually be better for the battery life, as it has a lower base clock http://ark.intel.com/compare/76308,75114 http://ark.intel.com/compare/76308,75114
richard_cubano 12y ago
He says that the reduction in sensitivity on the digitizer "scared the hell out of [him]." Why do people say stuff like this? You know what scares the hell out of me? Getting mauled by a bear.
- louthy 12y ago
  > You know what scares the hell out of me? Getting mauled by a bear. Why do people say stuff like this? You know what scares the hell out of me? Getting mauled by two bears.
- lightyrs 12y ago
  Hyperbole is what's known as a "rhetorical device" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device) — a technique that an author or speaker uses to convey to the listener or reader a meaning with the goal of persuading him or her towards considering a topic from a different perspective, using sentences designed to encourage or provoke a rational argument from an emotional display of a given perspective or action.
gcb0 12y ago
i waited for this tablet release, and then, seconds before the impulse buy i remembered i should wait for Gabe reviews :) ...saved by the bell! that said, i'm still anxious to a tablet with a decent perf/battery life and a good pen. tired of only consuming content on tablets. and i'm sure a keyboard is not feasible anytime soon. while i could already code with my palm custom pen input... albeit painfully, it was less painful then any apple soft keyboard.
- JimmaDaRustla 12y ago
  Reading other comments, the i7 version has better graphics, hopefully not laggy...and hopefully a software fix to disable home button when pen is in range...but...the i7 ain't cheap.
_asciiker_ 12y ago
As an old MCSE I am happy to see the Surface 3 reviews, for me (an Android tablet user) this means Microsoft is fighting not to lose the tablet race. The idea of replacing the laptop with a very well designed keyboard "docking station" is brilliant. And it does seem that they did do everything else right!
- vacri 12y ago
  As a Thinkpad user, I have bad memories of docking stations. They're nice to have, but they're ridiculously expensive for a hunk of plastic and some interconnects.
  - noisy_boy 12y ago
    As a Dell user, I couldn't get my _Dell_ monitor working with _Dell_ E-Port Plus Port Replicator docking station (USD 219) when used with my _Dell_ E7240 laptop - in Linux (and this laptop has the option of selling with Ubuntu). Dell support were very patient and after 1 hour and docking station firmware update later (done via Windows obviously), it still doesn't work. Works fine in Windows (but only after firmware update). Now I use the "hunk of plastic" as a tilting platform to let the laptop vent exhale easier.
interpol_p 12y ago
I'm really pleased to hear about how good the NTrig digitiser is. Seems like an awesome painting tool.
Pxtl 12y ago
Counter-point on surface-pro by another webcomic author: http://www.pvponline.com/news/surface-pro-vs-the-cintiq-13hd http://www.pvponline.com/news/surface-pro-vs-the-cintiq-13hd Basically, Scott Kurtz found that the stylus lag on every tablet was so bad that he ended up using his Wacom Cintiq, which requires a wall-outlet.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  How did Kurtz get access to a Surface Pro 3 in January?
  - Pxtl 12y ago
    To clarify, this is about an older model surface pro, however Krahulik/Gabriel indicated that the SP3 didn't improve on the pen lag that seems to plague the entire form-factor. I just brought it up because Krahulik is one of the louder cheerleaders of the Surface Pro line, and so one of his colleagues in the same field that disagrees is worth reading too, even if that article is now a bit dated with the launch of the SP3.
hyp0 12y ago
It's interesting that there doesn't appear to be lag when he's actually drawing.
vfclists 12y ago
Apple shills or what?
richardw 12y ago
What kills me about this thing is that it's still an almost-notebook. They take a tablet and make you choose to run almost-Windows or Windows. It's most visible difference to other tablets is a great keyboard concept, but it's not quite a notebook in that it now needs a kickstand to stand up. I'd rather have a notebook that has a rational keyboard that holds the screen at whatever angle than something that is almost exactly the same, but somehow inferior. I'm really not against the whole idea of a Windows tablet, but if the keyboard is that important...just make a keyboard that handles the weight of the screen. In fact, the keyboard I bought for my mother-in-law's iPad does that just fine (minus the variable-angle) so I'd still rather have the iPad or Android tablets. Or a well-executed ultrabook. Easier for working on the couch/plane/train etc. Still, I'll forward this article to an artist friend. It looks great for a drawing tablet and maybe it'll work for him.
enscr 12y ago
The app shown in the pictures is "Manga Studio"
girvo 12y ago
I'll never understand why the comments on certain products and brands end up being so vitriolic and "my Dad can beat up your Dad!"-styled discussions are considered par for the course. Frankly, I have Apple everything, because it works for me. My family use a lot of Windows and Microsoft products, because it works for them. At the end of the day, these are tools, not lifestyles. I think we'd all do well to remember that you are not your gadgets...
- exodust 12y ago
  Agreed, but I think reasonable people can filter out the pointless childish noise, and find the useful information and opinions. Me, I'm trying to break into 3D design in my "spare time" and I need either a Wacom Cintiq or one of these Surface Pros for painting on 3d textures in applications such as Substance Painter. I am undecided. The Cintiq looks really nice as a permanent workstation tool, but relies on a computer to run the application. Perhaps I need to accept that what I am wishing for is merely an input device for my main computer, rather than a completely separate computer.
snarfy 12y ago
The Penny Arcade guys live a little too close to Redmond for me to believe their reviews of Microsoft products are unbiased.
- Gigablah 12y ago
  If you read the article, he's actually quite critical of the product.
  - snarfy 12y ago
    Ack. I read right up to the 'now the frustrating stuff' without seeing it and closed the tab thinking 'not more of this crap from PA'. I stand corrected.
orionblastar 12y ago
I mean yes it is good for art and drawing cartoons. I have tried every Surface tablet and I don't like them. Just my opinion. I got a Nook HD+ that works better and cost less, and will sell it now that Nook tablets are not updated anymore and maybe buy a Kindle HDX to replace it. Even the Android tablets are more responsive. My son has an iPad that is faster as well and it is only an iPad 3. We can get pens for them that draw art and cartoons. Just my opinion, the Surface could work better for others in different things. But for me and my son, we chose a different tablet due to the Surface being sluggish and locking up at times when we demoed it at the Microsoft store.
- jamesbritt 12y ago
  Which of these other devices provide pressure-sensitive drawing, and how well does it work? I'm curious because that's a feature that can be the deciding factor for me.
  - orionblastar 12y ago
    For Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dsandler.apps.markers https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dsandler.a... For iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/procreate-sketch-paint-create./id425073498?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/procreate-sketch-paint-creat... Pressure sensitive stylus: http://www.adonit.net/jot/touch/ http://www.adonit.net/jot/touch/ From what I know all iPads and Android tablets have pressure sensitive apps and touch screens and you can buy a stylus that supports it as well. My son draws for school on both the iPad and Nook. We don't seem to have any issues nor do we need Photoshop and other expensive software. There are attachable bluetooth keyboards for Android and iPad tablets that work better than the Surface ones. I don't know why people seem to think that only Surface has an attachable keyboard and stand? I mean these features were standard and options standard with iOS and Android before the Surface tablets marketed them as exclusive to the Surface series only. For iPad devices go to an Apple store. For Android tablets some of the mobile carriers might be able to demo them for you. Don't take my word for it, what my son and I like might not meet your standards. Look for yourself, but don't think that only the Surface has those features.
ryan-allen 12y ago
I just bought a Surface 2 Pro 4 weeks ago. It is an awesome piece of hardware. The pen is great, I use it to sketch up stuff in OneNote like I would in my regular notebook. I connect it to an external display and use a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse at work, and I confuse people by running a fullscreen mintty.exe with terminal vim in my linux VM. The stand is why I bought it over a Dell Venue or a Lenovo Helix (even though I think the Helix is the best offering). It's a brilliant machine. I sold my Macbook Air 11" to buy it too! I sure hope Apple make something like this one day that runs proper OS X :)

351 points by ismavis 12y ago

I'm not too sure about that drafting board profile. Having not seen the device in person, at that angle it looks like it might break. Is there some form of support running along that line?

lstamour 12y ago
The hinge actually looks quite sturdy to me: http://www.wpcentral.com/sites/wpcentral.com/files/styles/large_wm_blb/public/field/image/2014/05/Surface_Pro_3_hinge_pen.jpg?itok=SO_sLsIt http://www.wpcentral.com/sites/wpcentral.com/files/styles/la...

kgermino 12y ago

I think this shows how dedicated the Surface Pro team at Microsoft is to making a rock solid product. Yes there's issues with branding, Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once, and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years; but I think the total focus on making the experience as good as possible combined with Microsoft's budget and a little time will yield very impressive results. I certainly hope so. I love the vision of the Surface Pro with a good dock. A single device that can be docked with monitors and a real keyboard/mouse, used as a laptop or carried as a tablet would make an awesome machine. It seems they are there in principle right now but need some time to get it polished enough to be usable for most. Too soon to count Microsoft out regardless.

justin66 12y ago
> Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once That is a very, very generous description of Windows 8. edit: it is amusing to me that THIS is the first comment I've made that some clique decided to go medieval on.
- edias 12y ago
  Windows 8 really isn't that bad. I avoided it like the plague when it was first released mainly due to the lack of start menu but between the 8.1 update and classic shell maturing a bit, I basically see it as a faster Windows 7 (especially start up on an SSD). I have some minor complaints but so long as I never have to enter the metro UI I've been pretty happy with it overall.
  - justin66 12y ago
    I see what you're saying but there's no "never show me anything Metro, ever" checkbox, and for me that's a problem. I've got a Lenovo touchpad and the user experience over the months has involved learning not to accidentally make all the myriad gestures that cause Windows 8 to do something stupid. I keep discovering new ones, I think in part due to the 8.1 update. Perhaps that's not why, it's hard to say. This is all a purely negative process for me: trying to keep the PC from doing something I don't want it to do. Apparently driver writers and Microsoft don't want to give you an official "make this trackpad not act stupid" option, either, last I checked.
    - edias 12y ago
      How much time have you tried customizing it to your liking? I couldn't stand Windows 8 before some serious tweaking, which don't get me wrong is a massive design flaw, but if you don't mind using some 3rd party software you can basically achieve the "never show me anything metro, ever" checkbox. Definitely check out classic shell[1] if you haven't yet, I wouldn't be using Win8 if it didn't exist. Also you'll find plenty of guides to turning off charm bars/ gestures/hot corners and whatever other UI trickery Windows 8 brought us. [1]http://www.classicshell.net/ http://www.classicshell.net/
      - justin66 12y ago
        The funny thing is, I actually don't have as huge a problem with the shell or lack of classic menus as some people do. I can just pile shortcuts onto the desktop like all my install programs want to do anyway. It really is the touchpad for me that's the huge annoyance, and dealing with the UI to make wifi work properly, which I guess is a Metro gripe. The last time I checked, the touchpad thing required registry tweaking and positive results were not at all guaranteed. Whoever decided that the touchpad, of all things, should sorta-kinda try to incorporate the same gestures as the touchscreen (maybe? I have a touchscreen but barely use it) was probably guilty of huffing gasoline.
rasz_pl 12y ago
...rock solid product.. notice the number 3 in the name of said product? and still not good enough. Not to mention UI lags. 2014 and GUI is lagging. Someone needs to get shot.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Notice he didn't say it WAS a rock solid product, he said they were dedicated to making it one. It isn't surprising it has issues; the Surface line is a little less than 2 years old. The iPhone wasn't polished from day one; it took them a few years too. I don't think it was until the end of the 3G, somewhere around the iPhone 4, where the iPhone was generally accepted as a well-polished product. Which, I might add, was a timespan of ~3 years.
- x3sphere 12y ago
  Not surprising. The MBP Retina suffers from such lag as well, unless you go for the top of the line model with the dedicated graphics card. 2160X1440 res is too much for these integrated chips to handle.
  - LeafyGreenbriar 12y ago
    In my experience that was only true of the Ivy Bridge models. I've used both the 13 & 15 inch Haswell Pros, and neither seems to have any appreciable GUI lag, with the possible exception of scrolling/resizing sites with very complex layouts in Chrome.
  - dangrossman 12y ago
    If the higher end model uses one of the i7's with Intel's Iris graphics (still an integrated GPU), it'll have no problem. I have one powering my 2560x1440 laptop connected to another external monitor, and it drives both screens in native-res games just fine. It's more capable than the discrete ATI Radeon was in my older i5 laptop. It's also an Ultrabook (0.6"), so the same chip shouldn't have any size/thermal issues with being stuffed in an SP.
  - saratogacx 12y ago
    OSX has some really odd lag issues with the UI and responsiveness. I'm running my lenovo win Win8 dual monitor on the 1377x768 & 2560x1440 external monitor and I don't see any UI lag. This is on an older Intel HD3000 integrated chip. My 13" MBP from the same time lags even if I'm using just the built in screen.
nivla 12y ago
>and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years I think they know exactly where things are going to in the next five years, yet they will try their best to arrive late. Remember the MS Courier? I believe the future is going to be a hybrid of mobile and desktop. Its already happening with the web and other OSes especially Win8 and Ubuntu (Ubuntu mobile that turns into a full fledged desktop when docked in). So technically MS is on the right track, they are just a bit too early - 70's Groovy in the mid 60's. The biggest gripe I have with them is that sometimes they make something very good and then mess up something very little in a very noticeable way. Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature. I have the Surface Pro I and its perfect for my needs except when I am out of wifi or need directions. Just put in a GPS and 4G already. I have waited for 2 iterations now.
- MBCook 12y ago
  > Remember the MS Courier? It was never a product, it was a concept. This, by the way, is why it's a bad idea to show everyone your concepts. They will hold them against you for years.
  - nivla 12y ago
    I was talking about MS have the right idea but failing to go though with it. MS Courier concept was introduced well before the iPad, suggesting someone there believed that it was going to be the future but they ended up killing it before the board din't agree to it. Similarly, they were already working on a voice assistant called "Tell Me" even before Siri was introduced by Apple [1]. A lot of people think MS doesn't come up with great ideas but its quite the opposite. They just fail to execute it in a timely manner or require a few iterations to get it perfect. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6pWs46GY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6pWs46GY8
    - ghshephard 12y ago
      Ideas are cheap, execution is everything. You said it yourself, "MS Courier" was a concept - it wasn't actually a product. Your average gifted 13 year old can come up with a lot of great concepts, the challenge is in actually creating them. Even Apple is running into this - Siri requires a rock solid Wireless connection, without it, Siri no longer works, which kind of defeats the purpose of a mobile voice assistant.
codeulike 12y ago
A single USB3 port can be used to dock to keyboard, mouse, monitor and ethernet - thats what I do with my Surface Pro 1. Just needed a few cheap hubs and adapters. A proper dock would be nice but its not strictly necessary.
- TTPrograms 12y ago
  Plus power. That means two cables! That's literally double the number of things I should need to plug in. I hate to admit that this actually bothers me. It's true of all laptops, though.
  - shanselman 12y ago
    The new Lenovos have a "one dock" plug that does USB, video, and power on one plug. It's lovely.
    - TTPrograms 12y ago
      Yet another reason for my next laptop to be a Lenovo...
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - Too 12y ago
      Last time I saw a USB dock with video the video performance was really poor, max 30hz at 720p etc... Do you have any experience of how these work?
      - jrockway 12y ago
        I'm guessing the dock is Thunderbolt, since Intel CPUs support it directly, and it does video, USB, and power.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
_broody 12y ago
It's already yielded impressive results for me. I bought a SP1 at a big discount, hoping to use it only for digital artwork. I didn't have my hopes too high, as I was aware of all the criticism it had drawn (though honestly, the tech press of today is utterly ridiculous. There's a couple of holdouts of excellent coverage, but for the most part it's comprised of a frothing band of gadget fanboys). I didn't expect to end up loving the SP1 so much. I'll never be able to go back to a tablet without split-screen multitasking, or to a small laptop without touchscreen and stylus input. Everything else feels incredibly rudimentary in comparison. The first-generation SP has a good deal of flaws, but none of them have been dealbreakers for me. This is the first device I've truly loved so thoroughly, ever. It feels like it's truly pushing the envelope.
- silverbax88 12y ago
  the blunt truth is Windows 8 is excellent for a mobile/tablet OS, and absolutely horrible as a desktop OS. So Microsoft needs to just get it's act together and put out/fix/resolve the Desktop OS and focus the tiled OS on mobile and THEN they might be able to gain ground.

ChuckMcM 12y ago

Being left handed I wouldn't have the problem Gabe does, instead I'd be activating a half dozen tools on the left margin of the screen. I appreciate the 'wrist' input for the JOT stylus which lets you tell it where you rest your hand normally. I'll definitely try out the SP3, and I'm still trying to get my hands on a Samsung Note Pro (12" tab). The screen is what I crave, a 12" 3:2 aspect ratio screen with 2160 x 1440 feels pretty close to ideal in this form factor.

ygra 12y ago
The touch screen itself would be disabled when you use the pen. It's just that the Windows button on the right side is a hardware button (just touch, too) and doesn't disable itself like the rest of the screen.
- jdmichal 12y ago
  I'd imagine one of the "special options" he's going to be getting from MS is a version which does exactly that; disable the home button with the pen input.
  - cmelbye 12y ago
    That sounds like it should hopefully be a software fix.
  - codeulike 12y ago
    Yeah that should be fixable in software - the screen itself can detect and ignore palms
deleted 12y ago
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morbius 12y ago

I've been a believer in the Surface concept since the beginning. I'd bought a Surface 2 last year and was blown away by just how unique and incredibly inventive the design was. The 16:9 screen and the lack of power really suffered it, though... But like the MacBook Air, three generations in, and it looks like this is going to be Microsoft's Hail Mary. I preordered one.

listic 12y ago
Do you think 3 will be really better than the 2? I'm still waiting for my 2 and I'm not convinced. I'm going to try to "upgrade" from a 12" ThinkPad X series and I really liked that the screen size is smaller. All the other changes don't necessarily feel like an upgrade to me, too.
- lstamour 12y ago
  Every time I used my Surface Pro (1st gen), I lamented that the screen wasn't bigger. You really feel like you're missing a third of possible screen real estate. Hence why I'm excited about the 3:2 aspect ratio. I always figured the Chromebook Pixel was on to something ;-)
  - listic 12y ago
    I don't know, I'm using a 12" Thinkpad X and I feel like I could bear if the screen would be a tad smaller, so I was excited about a prospect of a 10.6" tablet/laptop. I guess, I'll wait and see: Surrface Pro 3's are not going anywhere, not sure about the older models. Unlike Thinkpads, I'm afraid Microsoft made not very many of these. Sorry for the accessories though: the innovative things like Freedomcase just started to appear for the old form factor. http://www.freedomcase.com/ http://www.freedomcase.com/

jodrellblank 12y ago

2014, Intel Core i5, SSD and stutters when 'browsing files' in PS. shakes head

lstamour 12y ago
I don't know if that says more about the Surface or Photoshop...
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
Wait, is this a criticism of Surface, SSDs, or PS? Have you used Adobe products lately? I can't imagine how they could be any more bloaty.
higherpurpose 12y ago
Probably because there's no magic in how they made it so thin for an Intel machine - they just underclocked it a ton in order to achieve a minimal TDP and not need huge air vents, free space and fans.
- codeulike 12y ago
  it has fans
dpcan 12y ago
This was the show stopper comment for me. I was somewhat considering this for my back-and-forth home and office computer. But the thought of ANY stutter for the price I'd be paying keeps me in line to get a regular laptop. It's heavier, but once it's plopped down on a desk and I need it to WORK, the weight factor is gone. For those looking for more of a working "Tablet", well, maybe it's a different story.
teamonkey 12y ago
My work PC is an 8-core Xeon beast with 12GB of RAM, a 2GB GPU, a SSD and Photoshop still lags while browsing files.
prawn 12y ago
I bought a retina MBP soon after they were announced, I have an SSD and Photoshop feels very average most of the time.

carlio 12y ago

Gabe has written some very complimentary things about the Surface in the past, it's no wonder they're eager to hear his opinions and tell him what he wants to hear. "Yes Mr Gabe, we really like artists, like a whole bunch. Please write some more nice things!" I feel a little cynical by saying this, but does Microsoft really care about artists as much as they care about the audience they're reaching via Penny Arcade?

bignaj 12y ago
I think you're being downvoted because of tone. I don't have enough karma to downvote but my feedback is that sometimes extreme cynicism makes HN not so fun to read. Cheer up, it's Friday before Memorial Day weekend!
FreezerburnV 12y ago
Does it really matter if they care about artists or not in this case? In order for them to get good publicity to the audience of Penny Arcade, they have to cater to artists. (assuming you aren't cynical enough to believe that Gabe is just a shill for Microsoft, which he likely is not) If Surface 4 comes out and they don't fix any of the issues Gabe has mentioned, and they send him one to review, he'll point out that things were not fixed, and they were obviously not listening. I think at that point it would be valid to say they don't care, but the way things are described, it does sound like they're trying to improve the product, at least for the specific niche Gabe occupies.
- hagbardgroup 12y ago
  Remember "I'm a Mac / I'm a PC?" The loyalty that Apple built up among creative professionals has under-girded their entire brand. If you were Microsoft, and you saw a chance to knock some of those people loose, wouldn't you work like hell to make that happen? This would also be an example of MS improving its touch in terms of attempting to persuade people about Surface. Rather than just repeating over and over about how great [tabletX] is and how a celebrity they've paid to endorse it just loves it (see HP's disastrous TV campaigns for their tablets), they're letting an influential guy use it, review it, and criticize it publicly. The critical bits are what make it more effective as commercial messaging for MS' particular purposes at this moment. If Gabe were shilling they would pay him directly to shill and it would be marked as an ad (which PA has done many times before for many companies). In this case, that's probably not happening.

coreymgilmore 12y ago

Very well written review. I myself was worried about the switch to N-trig (having dealt with a few products in the past), but I glad to hear it is a non-issue. To me, the additional size is great. While I like the portability of a tablet, having the extra screen real-estate makes me more productive and thus worth the trade off of a larger physical size device. I think MS's third attempt at a tablet is finally the tablet/laptop/combo that I have been waiting for.

lstamour 12y ago

My only worry with buying the Surface Pro 3 is how I was burned by the Surface Pro 2 late last year when I got an original Surface Pro early last year. Very much like the iPad, they seem to be releasing new Surfii every 6-9 months. Since this model isn't available at launch with the i7 and only has Intel 4400 graphics, I expect early next year to see a bump in specs, perhaps Intel 5100 (or better) graphics by next March? Which has me wondering if I should buy now or hold off. If they had the ntrig bluetooth pen with OneNote integration in a smaller form factor for cheaper, I'd buy that first right now and wait for the larger device to get a bump in performance. That said, no question -- if you want OneNote for school in September or can afford to upgrade once a year, buy now. The only thing I wish it had was a touch-optimized terminal app with tabs ;-)

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
sliverstorm 12y ago
Should you wait? Just answer the question, "Does it meet my needs?". If you aren't going to use it to draw in Photoshop (for example), it may not make a lick of difference whether you have the i7, or which graphics chip it has.
- lstamour 12y ago
  It is equally true that the smoothest ink experience is within Microsoft apps such as OneNote. And so, by far, it should have enough performance for note-taking regardless... Well, at worst Microsoft does have a return policy :)

smrtinsert 12y ago

3:2 I need this so badly. I hope they solve the lag and handedness issues I really want to love this device.

rplnt 12y ago
Finally. A step in the right direction. Wide screen on small desktop-like devices is just stupid. It's OK on tablets and such, but on notebooks? Why anyone thought it's a good idea?
- mikevm 12y ago
  I don't think 16:9 is good on anything, not even for movies. Heck, movies are usually shot in a much wider format anyway. On tablets and small devices it's even worse. There's a reason why Apple used 4:3 on the iPod -- it's because they're actually thoughtful and pay a lot of attention to the design and use cases of their products, unlike Samsung and others who simply slap together whatever's cheaper (AFAIK 16:9 panels are more cost effective for them) and shove it at consumers.
- vacri 12y ago
  16:9 means panels can also be used in TV hardware, and you can standardise your tooling. This is why the common 'decent' midsize computer monitor has fallen from 1920x1200 to 1920x1080, because the latter has 16:9 panels that can be used in TVs.

nileshtrivedi 12y ago

People have been able to run Ubuntu on Surface Pro 2 but it took some effort (custom kernel etc). If this has improved and if the new Surface pro can dual-boot Ubuntu without any issues, I'd definitely buy one. The hardware concept is too tempting.

listic 12y ago
I'm waiting for my 2 to use with Ubuntu. Totally unconvinced whether "3" is an upgrade to "2". Don't get fooled by numbers, look at what matters.
noisy_boy 12y ago
I've always wondered what stops MS for making it easier for Linux to be installed on their products. There will always be a class of people who will stick with Windows and they don't/won't care about Linux compatibility anyway. So nothing to lose there. Then there is the un-captured "technical/Linux user" segment to whom they can sell Surface so thats more devices sold. Unless they are making a loss on the device just to push Windows - even then, at least this segment would appreciate the quality of the device (and this segment tends to care about/be more loyal to quality) which is the kind of impression you want to make on people. If nothing else, that is a good to have thing for future devices.

hyperliner 12y ago

It has to be really frustrating to be an engineer working on Surface and having to deal with the HN echo chamber, or MS bashing (some from Apple fanboys), or totally unrelated comments. Maybe it should be a rule that these folks below post their own product for review. Hopefully they have something significant that can be open to critique. Of course, that would not be too much fun. - nivla: "Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature." - rasz_pl: "...rock solid product.. notice the number 3 in the name of said product? and still not good enough. Not to mention UI lags. 2014 and GUI is lagging. Someone needs to get shot." - justin66 "> Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once That is a very, very generous description of Windows 8." - jodrellblank: "2014, Intel Core i5, SSD and stutters when 'browsing files' in PS. shakes head" - carlio: "I feel a little cynical by saying this, but does Microsoft really care about artists as much as they care about the audience they're reaching via Penny Arcade?" - enraged_camel: "It's the execution that is lacking significantly. I've always said that Microsoft is really, really good at engineering, and really, really bad at UX and usability. After reading Gabe's review, I'm disappointed that this is still the case." [EDIT: Software to "product" + line breaks]

HNJohnC 12y ago
In fairness, just the single fact that they put a button exactly where the hand needs to go when actually using the product in one of it's core use-cases is a pretty good excuse for some MS bashing. They could have taken 5 minutes, given the prototype to an artist and noticed the hand placement issue immediately. You can be an apologist if you wish, but I don't know how you can excuse such a glaring failure of design.
- shurcooL 12y ago
  Saying that it's a "failure of design" suggests there's an easy non-failure alternative. If so, can you tell us what it is? Are you sure that solution won't fail under some conditions? People like to take something that exists, take the problems it solves as a given, and act like all that's left is fixing the problems remaining. That's not how it works.

localhost 12y ago

Looks like the Core i7 version is the i7-4650U model, with HD5000 graphics. Details in Ed Bott's article: http://www.zdnet.com/which-cpus-will-you-find-in-the-surface-pro-3-7000029820/ http://www.zdnet.com/which-cpus-will-you-find-in-the-surface... Link to Intel specs: http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/Intel-Core-i7-4650U-Processor-4M-Cache-up-to-3_30-GHz http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/Intel-Core-i7-4650U-Proc...

Deinos 12y ago
Just saw that at neowin. Very tempted with the i7 now. I wonder how that will affect battery life.
- JBiserkov 12y ago
  From what I understand, it should actually be better for the battery life, as it has a lower base clock http://ark.intel.com/compare/76308,75114 http://ark.intel.com/compare/76308,75114

richard_cubano 12y ago

He says that the reduction in sensitivity on the digitizer "scared the hell out of [him]." Why do people say stuff like this? You know what scares the hell out of me? Getting mauled by a bear.

louthy 12y ago
> You know what scares the hell out of me? Getting mauled by a bear. Why do people say stuff like this? You know what scares the hell out of me? Getting mauled by two bears.
lightyrs 12y ago
Hyperbole is what's known as a "rhetorical device" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device) — a technique that an author or speaker uses to convey to the listener or reader a meaning with the goal of persuading him or her towards considering a topic from a different perspective, using sentences designed to encourage or provoke a rational argument from an emotional display of a given perspective or action.

gcb0 12y ago

i waited for this tablet release, and then, seconds before the impulse buy i remembered i should wait for Gabe reviews :) ...saved by the bell! that said, i'm still anxious to a tablet with a decent perf/battery life and a good pen. tired of only consuming content on tablets. and i'm sure a keyboard is not feasible anytime soon. while i could already code with my palm custom pen input... albeit painfully, it was less painful then any apple soft keyboard.

JimmaDaRustla 12y ago
Reading other comments, the i7 version has better graphics, hopefully not laggy...and hopefully a software fix to disable home button when pen is in range...but...the i7 ain't cheap.

_asciiker_ 12y ago

As an old MCSE I am happy to see the Surface 3 reviews, for me (an Android tablet user) this means Microsoft is fighting not to lose the tablet race. The idea of replacing the laptop with a very well designed keyboard "docking station" is brilliant. And it does seem that they did do everything else right!

vacri 12y ago
As a Thinkpad user, I have bad memories of docking stations. They're nice to have, but they're ridiculously expensive for a hunk of plastic and some interconnects.
- noisy_boy 12y ago
  As a Dell user, I couldn't get my _Dell_ monitor working with _Dell_ E-Port Plus Port Replicator docking station (USD 219) when used with my _Dell_ E7240 laptop - in Linux (and this laptop has the option of selling with Ubuntu). Dell support were very patient and after 1 hour and docking station firmware update later (done via Windows obviously), it still doesn't work. Works fine in Windows (but only after firmware update). Now I use the "hunk of plastic" as a tilting platform to let the laptop vent exhale easier.

interpol_p 12y ago

I'm really pleased to hear about how good the NTrig digitiser is. Seems like an awesome painting tool.

Pxtl 12y ago

Counter-point on surface-pro by another webcomic author: http://www.pvponline.com/news/surface-pro-vs-the-cintiq-13hd http://www.pvponline.com/news/surface-pro-vs-the-cintiq-13hd Basically, Scott Kurtz found that the stylus lag on every tablet was so bad that he ended up using his Wacom Cintiq, which requires a wall-outlet.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
How did Kurtz get access to a Surface Pro 3 in January?
- Pxtl 12y ago
  To clarify, this is about an older model surface pro, however Krahulik/Gabriel indicated that the SP3 didn't improve on the pen lag that seems to plague the entire form-factor. I just brought it up because Krahulik is one of the louder cheerleaders of the Surface Pro line, and so one of his colleagues in the same field that disagrees is worth reading too, even if that article is now a bit dated with the launch of the SP3.

hyp0 12y ago

It's interesting that there doesn't appear to be lag when he's actually drawing.

vfclists 12y ago

Apple shills or what?

richardw 12y ago

What kills me about this thing is that it's still an almost-notebook. They take a tablet and make you choose to run almost-Windows or Windows. It's most visible difference to other tablets is a great keyboard concept, but it's not quite a notebook in that it now needs a kickstand to stand up. I'd rather have a notebook that has a rational keyboard that holds the screen at whatever angle than something that is almost exactly the same, but somehow inferior. I'm really not against the whole idea of a Windows tablet, but if the keyboard is that important...just make a keyboard that handles the weight of the screen. In fact, the keyboard I bought for my mother-in-law's iPad does that just fine (minus the variable-angle) so I'd still rather have the iPad or Android tablets. Or a well-executed ultrabook. Easier for working on the couch/plane/train etc. Still, I'll forward this article to an artist friend. It looks great for a drawing tablet and maybe it'll work for him.

enscr 12y ago

The app shown in the pictures is "Manga Studio"

girvo 12y ago

I'll never understand why the comments on certain products and brands end up being so vitriolic and "my Dad can beat up your Dad!"-styled discussions are considered par for the course. Frankly, I have Apple everything, because it works for me. My family use a lot of Windows and Microsoft products, because it works for them. At the end of the day, these are tools, not lifestyles. I think we'd all do well to remember that you are not your gadgets...

exodust 12y ago
Agreed, but I think reasonable people can filter out the pointless childish noise, and find the useful information and opinions. Me, I'm trying to break into 3D design in my "spare time" and I need either a Wacom Cintiq or one of these Surface Pros for painting on 3d textures in applications such as Substance Painter. I am undecided. The Cintiq looks really nice as a permanent workstation tool, but relies on a computer to run the application. Perhaps I need to accept that what I am wishing for is merely an input device for my main computer, rather than a completely separate computer.

snarfy 12y ago

The Penny Arcade guys live a little too close to Redmond for me to believe their reviews of Microsoft products are unbiased.

Gigablah 12y ago
If you read the article, he's actually quite critical of the product.
- snarfy 12y ago
  Ack. I read right up to the 'now the frustrating stuff' without seeing it and closed the tab thinking 'not more of this crap from PA'. I stand corrected.

orionblastar 12y ago

I mean yes it is good for art and drawing cartoons. I have tried every Surface tablet and I don't like them. Just my opinion. I got a Nook HD+ that works better and cost less, and will sell it now that Nook tablets are not updated anymore and maybe buy a Kindle HDX to replace it. Even the Android tablets are more responsive. My son has an iPad that is faster as well and it is only an iPad 3. We can get pens for them that draw art and cartoons. Just my opinion, the Surface could work better for others in different things. But for me and my son, we chose a different tablet due to the Surface being sluggish and locking up at times when we demoed it at the Microsoft store.

jamesbritt 12y ago
Which of these other devices provide pressure-sensitive drawing, and how well does it work? I'm curious because that's a feature that can be the deciding factor for me.
- orionblastar 12y ago
  For Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dsandler.apps.markers https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dsandler.a... For iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/procreate-sketch-paint-create./id425073498?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/procreate-sketch-paint-creat... Pressure sensitive stylus: http://www.adonit.net/jot/touch/ http://www.adonit.net/jot/touch/ From what I know all iPads and Android tablets have pressure sensitive apps and touch screens and you can buy a stylus that supports it as well. My son draws for school on both the iPad and Nook. We don't seem to have any issues nor do we need Photoshop and other expensive software. There are attachable bluetooth keyboards for Android and iPad tablets that work better than the Surface ones. I don't know why people seem to think that only Surface has an attachable keyboard and stand? I mean these features were standard and options standard with iOS and Android before the Surface tablets marketed them as exclusive to the Surface series only. For iPad devices go to an Apple store. For Android tablets some of the mobile carriers might be able to demo them for you. Don't take my word for it, what my son and I like might not meet your standards. Look for yourself, but don't think that only the Surface has those features.

ryan-allen 12y ago

I just bought a Surface 2 Pro 4 weeks ago. It is an awesome piece of hardware. The pen is great, I use it to sketch up stuff in OneNote like I would in my regular notebook. I connect it to an external display and use a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse at work, and I confuse people by running a fullscreen mintty.exe with terminal vim in my linux VM. The stand is why I bought it over a Dell Venue or a Lenovo Helix (even though I think the Helix is the best offering). It's a brilliant machine. I sold my Macbook Air 11" to buy it too! I sure hope Apple make something like this one day that runs proper OS X :)