9 ms·

Ask HN: living and working in US

62 points by seminole 12y ago

Hi everyone, I wanted to ask for your comments. I'll try to keep this as short as I can. I'm a 26yo enterprise Java dev and the sole provider for my little family (wife and toddler). We're EU citizens. We spent the last 8 years in UK, and have recently moved to Belgium looking for a change. And change we got, but not the good kind. So want to move again. My wife keeps saying we should move to US, perhaps California. She thinks we'll finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people. And she's probably right about these, but I'm a little scared about what we'd be giving up. Namely, 40h workweek 5 weeks of holiday a year free/cheap health insurance free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter. Am I being paranoid? I hear stories from both ends of the spectrum. Some say they've been working 60h/week with no holiday for 5 years, in which case all that sunshine and nature have as much value as a travel brochure. But others claim that US is developer's paradise. And while health insurance is expensive, some get it from their companies or it's offset by the substantially higher salary. Some claim that public education system is also underrated. What's your opinion/experience with this? What would you expect re: work/life balance & health insurance in a decent (choose your own definition) company? Any comments on school education? General cost of living? Also, I do realize US is huge, but California is the only state I get to hear about - please give a shout for your favorite place! Thanks a lot for comments, they are important to us.

seminole 12y ago
Sorry about the formatting. * 40h workweek * 5 weeks of holiday a year * free/cheap health insurance * free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter.
- lbotos 12y ago
  Out of the 4 things listed here, in the US the only one that's "normal" is a 40h workweek. 5 weeks of vacation is a lot unless you are really senior or pulled a lot of strings. 2weeks is the average "base" here. Solid health insurance is usually expensive. Public schools are "free" but you are going to have to pay for college. I don't know of any completely free colleges anywhere in the country. (Not saying there aren't any, but I've never heard anyone talk about a good one.)
  - tomp 12y ago
    He can always send the daughter (and any other kids) back to Europe for college, it's (mostly) free (for citizens) here.
    - seminole 12y ago
      That was the cunning plan :-)
- mpcadosch 12y ago
  Go to the US for an extended vacation (month or so), interview with as many companies as you can, and find one that will sponsor an H1-B visa. It'll be hard, but it's worth it.
  - levosmetalo 12y ago
    And then wait 5 or more years until your wife is allowed to work there legally, pay obscene amounts of money for child daycare and schools, all while waiting for a green card.
    - gcp 12y ago
      This matches the experience of the people I know that emigrated :-/
- ColinWright 12y ago
  Generally you have up to 2 hours to edit your post, which is reasonable if you also add a line saying you've done so for formatting purposes.
- gte525u 12y ago
  Most US companies it's 2-3 weeks of vacation and 10 days a year of public holidays.
  - gcp 12y ago
    It's not really that far off from Belgium (20 + 10), but I think your US numbers do assume a competitive job market like programming. His wife might not be so lucky.
jacquesm 12y ago
What countries are you from originally? Plan a holiday to the US, look things over and then make a budget (emigration is far from cheap), save and then decide to back out or bite the bullet. Don't do anything permanent until your visa is in the bag for you, your spouse and your child. Hollywood and anecdotes are not good inputs to a life determining decision like this, consider it a huge project and devote resources accordingly. Why is Belgium disappointing you? The US is definitely not paradise but it may give you chances that are hard to replicate elsewhere. At the same time, I know plenty of people that are successful in the EU. It usually boils down to the people, not the place.
- gcp 12y ago
  Why is Belgium disappointing you? Well, given that his wife longs for "finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people." I'm going to guess: high housing prices, population density killing nature & unfriendly people. Given that this is HN, I'd add "government and population actively hostile to entrepreneurship" on top of it. You should talk to other people who emigrated, though. One of my friends did, and they found for example that they could hardly afford child daycare because that isn't subsidized in the States, unlike Belgium. There are probably multiple such small surprises lurking.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    When I read that I thought: South of France, Spain, Portugal, Italy. Any one of those would solve the majority of those wishes, and would be a lot easier to get into than the US. The problem is that no country is perfect. You can't get 'free daycare', 'good weather', 'affordable fresh food', 'beautiful nature close by', 'free healthcare', 'friendly and approachable people', '5 weeks of holiday' and 'free education' all in one serving. (Though I believe strongly that friendly and approachable people can be found anywhere, it's a bit of a reflection on how you are usually.) I say that as someone that has lived in a lot of different countries. (.nl, .pl, .ca, .ro and a bunch of others besides but too short to consider relevant in this context).
KhalPanda 12y ago
Just out of curiosity (as a UK resident), how would you plan on moving to the states from a legal standpoint? As far as I'm aware, if you don't have immediate family who are US-citizens, $500k-$1M to invest in a business, marry a US citizen or take employment on a H1-B (not easy), it's not possible?
- neverminder 12y ago
  I'm an EU citizen as well and I have to agree with you, aside from all you've mentioned plus winning a green card - moving to US is anything but trivial.
  - DrJokepu 12y ago
    The Diversity Visa Lottery will be likely repealed in the near future by the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 so that won't be an option for very long.
    - KhalPanda 12y ago
      Plus, the United Kingdom aren't eligible for the lottery anyway. So I guess it depends where OP is from.
      - e15ctr0n 12y ago
        The Diversity Visa Lottery can be granted on the basis of your birthplace, not your current place of residence or current nationality.
    - nobodysfool 12y ago
      That's not likely. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s744 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s744 It only has a 43% chance of passing. It's been up to the house for a year now, it's probably going to be shelved until after 2016.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
davidw 12y ago
> She thinks we'll finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people. That sounds kind of like Italy. Maybe not as much sunshine as California here up north, but it's certainly better than the UK or Belgium from that point of view. Of course, the economy is in the tank, but maybe you can work remotely or something. Going to the US is not easy: you'll have to find a company willing to hire you. That said, if it's what you want, don't let the naysayers get in your way - go on a vacation there, travel around some, meet people, see what day to day life is like, and then go for it! It's not perfect, but there's a lot of good stuff there - much more than some of the haters here give it credit for. Some people work crazy hours, many people don't. As someone who is likely to have a good job, you'll have decent health care, even if the system is a bit screwy. Edit: a few other places to check out might be: * Colorado (Boulder, Denver, Ft. Collins). Snowy, but still quite a bit of sun. If I ever went back to the US, this is high on my list of places to check out. * Austin, Texas. I don't know much about it, but it's supposed to be a nice place, and definitely sunny/hot. * Bend or Ashland in Oregon. Not as sunny as California, and cold in the winters. Not as many jobs either, but nice smallish towns.
- tubbzor 12y ago
  Since you mentioned it, I'll throw a shameless plug for Fort Collins (and Colorado in general). We do get snow from about November-March but its generally sporadic, however, there's usually 2-3 big snows a year. Despite this, we still get (on average) 300 days of sunshine a year [0]. For work, Foco has offices for Hewlett Packard, Intel, AMD, Avago, National Semiconductor, LSI, and Wolf Robotics. If the start-up scene is more your taste, Fort Collins-Loveland was rated 2nd in the "Top 10 Metro Areas for High-Tech Startup Density" in the United States (with Boulder at #1) in 2013 [1], and is also home to a start-up incubator called Rocky Mountain Innosphere [2]. There are miles of bike trails [3] all over the city and many places to hike nearby as well [4]. Needless to say lots of people are out and about being physically active around here and biking is often the preferred mode of transportion. Other than that I just personally enjoy the atmosphere out here. Since we have a university in town there are tons of little hole-in-the-wall coffee shops open 24/7 (or close to it) and lots of specialty food in the form of restaurants, food trucks, food carts, ect. Old Town area is the main social scene and is always bustling whether people are out getting a bite to eat, walking around, or there are often various festivals taking place. Micro-brew Beer is also a huge part of the culture around here (at least in my circles), as fort collins is home to New Belgium, Odell, and many other micro-breweries and holds a huge beer festival called New West Fest every year. In all, it's a quirky little city that I quite enjoy. Disclaimer: I've lived in the Loveland/Ft. Collins area for 6 years now and just finished my CS degree at Colorado State University. [0] - http://www.fcgov.com/visitor/fcfacts.php http://www.fcgov.com/visitor/fcfacts.php [1] - http://www.kauffman.org/newsroom/2013/08/young-hightech-firms-outpace-private-sector-job-creation http://www.kauffman.org/newsroom/2013/08/young-hightech-firm... [2] - http://www.innosphere.org/ http://www.innosphere.org/ [3] - http://www.fcgov.com/bicycling/pdf/bike-map-front.pdf http://www.fcgov.com/bicycling/pdf/bike-map-front.pdf [4] - http://alltrails.com/us/colorado/fort-collins?ref=header http://alltrails.com/us/colorado/fort-collins?ref=header edit: formatting
abcd_f 12y ago
My all time favourite place in North America is Europe. I am a European. I lived in US for two years, I lived in Canada for 15. I also lived in Sweden and Japan. States are good because it's just one big Walmart - everything is ridiculously cheap, but what it gets in quantity it tends to lose in quality. Canada in this respect is somewhat better, but it has the same problem - it feels ... I don't know ... diluted? Too much stuff, too little substance. It is nice, it is comfortable and affordable, but - and I am dumbing it down considerably - you can't get a decent croissant, because nobody simply gives a shit about getting them right. On the other hand, the grass is always greener on the other side. If you move, you will have at least a couple of years of excitement and novelty. PS. And generally working too much and not enjoying life is in fact the biggest lifestyle issue in States and Canada. No better manifested by the fact that most of the restaurants are there for eating and not for socializing.
- tomp 12y ago
  Where in the US did you live, and which places in Europe do you prefer? Both are huge, with significant regional differences.
- mkr-hn 12y ago
  > No better manifested by the fact that most of the restaurants are there for eating and not for socializing. We use bars and the internet for that.
- davidw 12y ago
  > what it gets in quantity it tends to lose in quality To some degree, yes, but I feel that's something that has been changing some. In the town of 150K people I'm from, you can now get a decent variety of food products from Italy. They're expensive, but at least you can get them. 20 years ago, there's no way you could have even found that stuff. So I think some people are starting to 'get it'. As another example, when my parents moved to Oregon in the 70ies, you could count the number of wineries on one hand. Now there are plenty of them, and some of them produce some decent wine.
- mhurron 12y ago
  > the restaurants are there for eating and not for socializing I went there to eat, how is this a problem? I don't like people, having to talk to them when I'm trying to have dinner would be annoying.
stefantalpalaru 12y ago
> we'll finally have some sunshine You will and you'll also have the chance to discover the difference between excess and moderation. > lots of affordable fresh food The food is either affordable or good. > live in a house with garden More like a house with a mandatory lawn in a region hit by a very serious drought. You might also want to ask about the rules imposed by the homeowners association and whoever rents you the house. > beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends Yes, if you like deserts and you want to live in SoCal. Note that "close" has a different meaning on that side of the pond. > friendly and approachable people Maybe at first. With time you realize that the friendliness is a form of politeness that hides fear, distrust and greed.
- seminole 12y ago
  Thanks for the comment. Perhaps a tad negative, but useful when pondering a move based on nothing more than 'vision that was planted in my head'.
- pionar 12y ago
  Wow, so negative. > Maybe at first. With time you realize that the friendliness is a form of politeness that hides fear, distrust and greed. This is not my experience at all. Maybe in Cali (I've only visited), but the rest of the US is not as cynical or distrustful as you make it out to be. > Yes, if you like deserts and you want to live in SoCal. Note that "close" has a different meaning on that side of the pond. The definition of close enough for a weekend camping trip for me would probably be 200-300 miles. Within that range, no matter where you are in the US, you'll find nice areas for this purpose. > The food is either affordable or good. In restaurants, yes. If you cook your own food, no. There are lots of farmers' markets, local grocery stores, etc., that are no more expensive than buying processed food. > More like a house with a mandatory lawn in a region hit by a very serious drought. You might also want to ask about the rules imposed by the homeowners association and whoever rents you the house. Only in suburbia. If you're out in the country, or in a city, there are (usually) no HOAs and only local zoning laws prevent what you can and can't do. The only requirement (usually) is to keep your grass trimmed to a reasonable height. I agree though, that HOAs are a bad idea and promote cookie-cutter neighborhoods.
lingoberry 12y ago
Unfortunately you don't just "go and work" in the US, it doesn't work like the EU. Unless you're a hot commodity and you can convince Google et al to pay for your visa ($tens of thousands) and then winning the H-1B visa lottery, you will have a tough time.
h1karu 12y ago
The cost of living in the tech-scene areas are outrageous and skyrocketing, those are the facts. The sun-shine California lifestyle can be quite nice you'll need to be prepared to pay out the wazoo. Don't believe it ? Prove me wrong, start looking at the Bay Area rental market.
sspross 12y ago
Come to Switzerland! You'll love it and as an enterprise java dev you'll find a job. Maybe I can help you here in Zürich, silvan.spross[at]gmail.com
bowlofpetunias 12y ago
"And change we got, but not the good kind." This raises a bit of red flag, because lots of people migrate with a vague idea of "the grass is greener" without knowing what they're getting into. Since Belgium is not a bad place to live, I'm wondering what it is you're running away from. And since you put a work/life balance, cheap health insurance and cheap education top of your priorities (all things Belgium already offers) and don't seem to know very much about the US, I wonder why you're not considering the much less complicated and safer option of another EU country? (Also, of all continental European countries, Belgium is probably most like the UK with it's post-industrial similarities.) What is it that makes you think you and your family be happy in the US? I'm getting a strong sense you don't really have a clear picture of that, and are just looking to flee to a magical land far away from your current troubles. I live in a place with lots of expats, and that scenario usually doesn't work out well.
adriaanm 12y ago
Do not underestimate the cost (time & $$$) of immigrating and the in(s)anity of US immigration law. Winning the H1b lottery is probably the easiest way. Getting a green card requires a pretty dedicated sponsor willing to spend $5-10K, not to mention the >1 year wait (this is assuming best case: EU citizen with "US equivalent" of a Masters).
kovrik 12y ago
I'm a 25yo Java developer from Russia. My gf and I don't like (almost hate) our country and we want out. We choose between USA, Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I'm not a well-known software engineer, not an outstanding genius (yes, I'm not very confident about my skills) - that is why it seems very difficult for me to get a job outside Russia. But I love programming, I try to learn something new every day, improve my skills and knowledge. And I hope we will get out someday (hope dies last :) ). I wish you good luck - don't worry, everything would be alright!
- BugBrother 12y ago
  In Scandinavia, most immigrants from Netherlands and Germany I met are the kind of people which spend all free time in a forest or in a canoe on a lake. If nature is important for you, select area carefully in some countries. Also, if you are from south Russia, be aware of the winter dark in Norway. Note that Scandinavians are shy, it is a culture historically from small villages, it takes years to get local friends. Finland has most Russian expatriates, afaik.
  - kovrik 12y ago
    Well, I love nature, but I am young and I like life in a big city too :) Currently I live in Saint-Petersburg (most european city in Russia) - it is rather cold here in winters, so low temperatures is not a problem. Also, I'm shy too.
    - BugBrother 12y ago
      StP. As far as I know... Beautiful? Cultured, with lots of good art/music education? Like half London, but with nature quite close? You won't get similar big city life anyplace in Scandinavia. Barcelona, or something? [Disclaimer: Two short visits to St P, quite long ago.] I don't really know any "typical" Russians -- most everyone I ever talked to were intellectual, nerd or artistic [Edit: and none of them drank more than me, either :-)] -- but I believe you might find people in other places be less cool and interesting. But sure, it might be good to get out before the borders are closed again. Russian politicians makes the Swedish cynical hypocritical ones look like angels; at least they aren't integrated with organized crime (afaik). :-( And good luck. Move when you are young and see other places.
lukasm 12y ago
Remote work from Spain?
empressplay 12y ago
Emigration is going to be difficult, isn't it? Companies seem to rarely sponsor immigrants unless they're total rockstars or aqui-hires because in-sourcers like TCS can bring "average" IT workers in cheaper. It looks like the days of Google et. al. recruiting from far-afield are over, unless you're CTO of an early-stage startup someone like Google might buy, or at least have some kick-ass side projects you can point to that will make you irresistibly attractive enough for someone to deal with all of the associated immigration headache, perhaps being better / worse off from a lifestyle perspective is a bit of a moot point? Sorry to be a downer but... cart before horse, etc. etc.
kasey_junk 12y ago
Not to put too fine a point on it, but just saying California isn't really even enough to narrow things down. Remember that California is about the size of Spain, but in many ways with more geographic, population and economic diversity. The cost of living, job opportunities, weather, and life style varies dramatically from San Diego, Los Angeles, Bakersfield, Sacremento, and San Francisco. I'd recommend a trip to see. That said, California is the last place I'd move if I were a tech worker right now. You can get many of the same benefits (except possible access to VC money) in lots of other places. The Research Triangle NC and Austin TX for instance both offer much of what you are asking for at a much more affordable price.
kghose 12y ago
The only way to figure out if you like it is to try it out. Unless this was a bash US starter, in which case, carry on.
comrade1 12y ago
For the sake of your child you should probably stay in Europe. The education system in the u.s. is terrible. 100% of my European friend couples have moved back to Europe as soon as they've gotten pregnant or gave birth in order to provide a better education for their children.
- davidw 12y ago
  100% of European couples probably also want to be around the child's grandparents, ensure the child learns their own language, and so on. My wife would find it tough to leave Italy for this reason, for instance. Also, as a parent, I think you want to feel somewhere that feels like 'home' - or maybe that's just me. Without kids, I would feel pretty comfortable in a lot of places, but now that we have them, I think I would be less comfortable going somewhere completely new. The educational system isn't that bad in the US if you're in the right place. It varies a lot from state to state and between towns or even areas in a town.
  - gcp 12y ago
    100% of European couples probably also want to be around the child's grandparents, ensure the child learns their own language, and so on. We're both arguing without hard data here, but I'll just give an outright "nope" to the above.
    - davidw 12y ago
      These rankings are a bit dubious, but in this one, for instance, the US does not do great, but does do better than Belgium, where the poster wants to move away from: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27314075 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27314075 I want my own kids to have a good education, and would feel comfortable moving back to the US from that point of view. My biggest doubt from that point of view is that I want them to be bilingual in Italian and English, and there is no Italian language education in the US, so it'd be up to my wife and I.
      - gcp 12y ago
gone35 12y ago
Sorry if this doesn't sound as much but... do your research. Ex ante it appears you and your wife are under a lot of misapprehensions and, if I may say, grass-is-greener media/cultural European clichés about the US --too many, perhaps, to disabuse in a single "Ask HN" thread. Like others said below, a good idea would be to come live in the US for, say, a summer or so under a short-term tourist or student visa (eg maybe for a career-related summer course or unpaid internship) and see for yourself.
- seminole 12y ago
  Yes, well, this is part of research :-) I agree that staying for a while would be ideal, but it's very nearly impossible at this point.
hellbreakslose 12y ago
You didn't mention the visa thing at all. You said you are EU citizens. It's ok for you moving around EU but moving to the US is going to create immigration problems for you. One of you will need to get sponsored for a long-term working visa not the temporary one. Then still I think according to US laws your Wife won't be able to work until you get a Green Card. I heard that they are trying to change that law but still. Sorry to break it down to you like that, you can still try and make it, but its not an easy thing to move to the States especially having a family with you. I'd suggest you apply to 20 companies+ and try schedule them all within a week. So you and your family can go there for a week do your interviews and see if you can get someone to sponsor you. It's not like you said I am just going to move there... If you say that to the officers in the airport asking you the reason for your visit they are definitely not going to let you in.
wellboy 12y ago
Australia dude, best country ever. Salary as high as in California. It has all the good things that the U.S. has, without the bad things.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
schwarzie2478 12y ago
May I ask what your bad experience in Belgium entailed? I'm curious, being belgian and a programmer... Although IT management here ranks very low in my humble opinion, it's not bad working here in the IT sector ( unless you work for banks and financial institutions, those are jerks :-) )
lazyjones 12y ago
I faced this question at the age of 29 (late 90's) when I got an interesting offer to work in Florida (I live in Austria). In the end, I decided against it. At the (2-day) job interview, people who worked there pointed out that the biggest benefit over Europe was the perceived freedom, the feeling that noone would bother them about their private business (this is probably no longer the case / general feeling today). I found the poverty in urban areas most shocking (loitering people, obvious racial inequality). In the end it boils down to whether having your "dream job" (for me it was game programming) is worth both getting ripped out of your surroundings and coping with lower standards in many areas in the US over Europe (well, depends on whether you live in a poor EU country), as well as other issues like the harsher environment (floods, earthquakes). 50-60 hours was a given in the 90's, perhaps it is no longer the case now that Google/FB set the bar higher for job quality. For me it was better to stay, although nowdays I sometimes ponder moving to Switzerland, Norway or perhaps Australia (for different reasons, none involving career perspectives).
RickS 12y ago
If there's one place you'll find a 40 hour work week, it's enterprise Java. Most of the glorified 80 hour work weeks occur in the startup realm. I'm generalizing significantly here, but enterprise is stereotypically a "clock in, check out" type of job at larger companies, and securing something that pays well without sucking up your whole life is very easily doable. Are those 5 weeks of holiday paid? If so, that is not a common benefit in America. Without citizenship, your healthcare coverage is likely to be either costly or limited. Scholarships and grants exist, but a free ride through college is also rare. If you were already a US citizen, this move would be possible (but even for the majority of Americans, what you ask for is off the table), but since you're not, I say move to Canada. Specifically, Toronto. As metropolitan as any American city (with a sufficiently large job market), numerous strong immigrant communities, better healthcare, great food. Nice and clean, fairly safe - I'd have no qualms bringing up a kid there. The surrounding suburbs are very mellow.
- turnip1979 12y ago
  What about sunshine? But seriously ... we moved to TO after SF and NYC - not that happy with the move. There is a startup scene but not as many choices as the cities we came from. The salaries are also quite a bit lower, stuff is expensive and there are generally more regulations to do with it seems.
manolus 12y ago
Go live in Brazil!
sologoub 12y ago
California is a double-edged sword. I've lived here for over 15 years and it's definitely the place I intend on staying for quite a while. If you plan on being near either Bay Area or the greater Los Angeles area, you have to be ready for the housing prices. A good, safe area with good schools will cost you. A short commute on top of that will cost you double. That said, if you do your research, you can find very solid public schools (school districts) and University is doable, unless you go private. As far as neighbors, it's a mixed bag - there are plenty of great people and there also many fake, greedy, etc. Just like any big city. Culturally, Americans seem to be more predisposed to welcoming people than not. Back to the finances, with the costs of housing, it's not likely that you will be able to be the sole breadwinner. I've been trying to solve this puzzle for a while, but on a single income things just don't pencil... Now the upside - California lifestyle is something else. You have all 4 seasons at your disposal with only a drive or a short flight year round. This opens up a lot of possibilities for enjoying nature/sports. If you are more into just quiet enjoyment, the state offers magnificent areas like Big Sur, that are also surrounded by awesome hotels, camping grounds and wine country. California wine is great and very inexpensive. You also have the beach (really cold water though) and great weather most days out of the year. Downside of Los Angeles is traffic and lack of public transit. In SF, you trade public transit for huge cost of living increase. Never having lived in Belgium, I can't compare. My only experience has been a very short (6 months) stint in the UK and Moscow. I would not come back to either voluntarily after California. If you are not afraid of a little rain, I would strongly recommend you consider Seattle - reasonable weather (I like rain) and not too much cold, great nature and friendly people (by my standards of visiting and working with a few great folks), no state income tax (CA works out to an extra 10% for me), a lot lower cost of living with similar level of education offered by the local school system.
yodsanklai 12y ago
Novelty and the feeling of doing something different are very good reasons to move. Salaries will be higher in the US but without a doubt you will lose in term of vacations and free time. Everything you wife mention, you can have in Europe. Food wise, I think you're better off in Europe if you like fresh inexpensive food. The nature on the west coast is incredible. The national parks there are among the most impressive places I've seen. However, with 2 weeks vacations, you may not have much time to visit them. You can't really go to the grand canyon for a weekend for instance. You'll have more time to go there on vacation while you work in Europe!
ashazar 12y ago
Just sharing my bookmarks that were previously discussed on HN. Hope you can find some useful info in them. Best of luck for your journey. 1. What's the best place in the U.S. to live and work cheaply? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6702111 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6702111 2. What's the best place in Europe to live and work cheaply? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6703058 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6703058 3. Where can I move cheaply to work by myself for a year? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6700531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6700531 4. A "Hacker's" Guide to the Bay Area http://islandofatlas.net/2013/10/04/a-hackers-guide-to-the-bay-area.html http://islandofatlas.net/2013/10/04/a-hackers-guide-to-the-b... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6502430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6502430
TheSmoke 12y ago
Some random thoughts: - The most important thing for me: EU states are social states and US is not. - You are not going to get a free health insurance or cheap but quality education for your daughter like in Europe. (Not saying she won't get quality education, just saying it won't be cheap as we are used to in Europe.) - US is not a developer's paradise but it's a paradise of possibilities and opportunities. - http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/CA/house,condo,mobile,land,townhouse_type/9_rid/1-_beds/42.617791,-110.302734,31.821565,-128.29834_rect/5_zm/ http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/CA/house,condo,mobile,l... In that link there is a list of houses with a garden that you can buy to give you the idea. For the places that you would think you could afford, there is a possibility of living without a job. (Find remote work and it all works out?) But I think they are better houses than houses in most of the Europe. - You can think of Austin, Boston or Chicago instead of California cities. - Wait, there's another possibility: You can move to Berlin, Vienna, Istanbul, Mugla, Izmir or Aydin. You'd work remotely most of the time except for Istanbul, Berlin and Vienna. - Food in Europe is a lot better than in the US and by food I mean real food, not the cereals, cookies or things they eat thinking they're having breakfast. :) (At least in SF) - I tend to think that startups are not for people that are married and with children. They are demanding and consuming. Unless it's your own because only then it'd be worth to your efforts and time. We all know that. Wish you all the luck for whatever you decide and let me tell you one more thing. You should absolutely be grateful for the wife of yours. Mine is not moving a centimetre..
foobarian 12y ago
I'm lucky to work for a Boston shop where work/life balance is good relative to my perception of the average American software company, specifically, close to 40 hour work weeks, "death marches" strongly discouraged by upper management because they get how bad they are for turnover, 3 weeks vacation at start, then one more week after every 3 years. One thing about vacations in US is that no matter how much time one gets on paper, I found the company cultures to look down on taking time off. It's almost like people are ashamed to take their vacation time.
deodorel 12y ago
You look for sunshine, sea, jobs and an european location? Have you considered Sophia Antipolis, on the French cote d'Azur? I live and work there and it's quite nice, and you'll surly find a lot of java jobs.
__xtrimsky 12y ago
26 yo that used to live in California, but lives in NY now. You don't get sunshine everywhere in California. I personally hated the weather in San Francisco, but a bit to the south (Mountain View) is already much nicer. Now I'll go through your requirements: 40h workweek: Yes easy to find 5 weeks of holiday a year: That is almost impossible to find in my experience, except if you are willing to get 3 weeks out of your pocket. (meaning you are actually deducting your pay) free/cheap health insurance: Find a company with health insurance, and then you should be able to have one for your family, and only pay an extra of 200 to 600$ / month (yes that is cheap in the US) free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter: that's not possible, you will have to pay for college. I think you can get one cheaper if you live more than 6 months in that state, and then send your daughter to a state college. Here is an example of a university near me (starts at 4000$ / year): http://www.stonybrook.edu/bursar/tuition/tuition-and-fee-rates.shtml http://www.stonybrook.edu/bursar/tuition/tuition-and-fee-rat...
- __xtrimsky 12y ago
  PS: there is a way to get your college paid for, and that is scholarships, if your child is extremely good in school, he/she can get any college paid for. But you can't count on it as it is something very hard to do. But my cousin got 8+ years of medical schools paid for, and also her rent was paid for.
awjr 12y ago
I'm going to add something from the experience of being the kid that was dragged around Germany and the USA from the age of 3 to the age of 12 moving every 2 years. Positives: - I was put into the german school system learning german almost like a 'native' and I still have it. (Massive positive) - Luckily I had 2 brothers. We'd move somewhere new, clump up as a gang, then slowly get to know people and get our own set of friends. - I still find it easy to make friends. Negatives: - Become good friends with somebody, move on. - Making new friends all the time. - I found my memories of Germany 3-10 better than the USA (10-12) but in Germany we were thrown on to our bikes and rode off into the countryside for the day (we lived in villages). In the USA we were driven everywhere although we did have a pool (Florida). - When we finally came back to the UK I found it slightly odd. Culturally I'd missed out on a lot. Schools were much of a muchness. Of note we were in public school and then quickly moved to private school in the USA (this was 1980).
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eshvk 12y ago
I moved to America six years ago. I have lived in California, Texas and now live in New York. > My wife keeps saying we should move to US, perhaps California. She thinks we'll finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people Sure, if you lived in Nor Cal, somewhere close to Marin or in the East Bay, you could probably get that. It is kind of puzzling to me that you would go all the way to America for this though. Wouldn't you prefer to live in the EU closer to a community ? > 40h workweek 5 weeks of holiday a year free/cheap health insurance free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter. You are not going to get a 40 hour work week in America. It might be close to 60 hours. At least 50. Again, depends on the place. If you work for a big company like Google, things will be reasonably. Early stage startup. Miserable. Vacation is 2 weeks - 4 weeks. Health insurance has always been paid for me by my employer. Schools, I can't comment. I don't have offspring. Someone mentioned other regions. Let me give you a quick run through considering that long term, America is my home but I don't know whether I want to live in a city. Austin, Texas. Too small, too hot. Still too Texan. New York. I love NYC. But it is not what your wife would want. It is a Megapolis. Colorado. I fucking love Colorado. Boulder is amazing, it is a great college town with all those beautiful girls. Great opportunities for hiking. It has a great and upcoming tech scene. Honestly, if I were ever to buy a summer home or move elsewhere in the U.S., it would be Colorado.
runewell 12y ago
We would love to have you and your family. The USA is so large and diverse that practically any living scenario is possible. If you want to live near nature with sunshine, fresh affordable food, and a home with a garden then I would suggest checking out more rural parts of northern California. There are many employers that will allow you to work onsite part-time (one day a week, month, or quarter) and the rest of your time at home, assuming your output is acceptable and you are available during working hours. Special arrangements such as this are more difficult in the beginning but are very easy to setup if you have proven yourself to be a productive programmer. I would suggest checking out areas such as Redding, CA. If you make over $100k a year you could get yourself setup with a nice place such as the link below. http://sacramento.craigslist.org/reb/4450341909.html http://sacramento.craigslist.org/reb/4450341909.html More properties in that area: http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/rea?query=acre&sale_date=-&housing_type=6&hasPic=1 http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/rea?query=acre&sale_... Note: Life can be wonderful in the USA but our healthcare and education system need work. Healthcare is fantastic if you get good insurance, but that will cost you each month. Being a programmer, it is likely your employer will provide health insurance. Our Universities are some of the best in the world (ex. MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Carnegie Mellon, etc), but our elementary and high school education system is inefficient so you may want to consider one of the many private school options in your area. This too will be costly. Basically expect to pay 10-15% of your salary towards making up for our deficiencies in these areas. Work/life balance is entirely possible here although many European countries structure their national policies around promoting such ideas while the USA pretty much leaves it up to the individual to organize their life in the way they see fit. This is why we have so many people living on the extremes, from super-star entrepreneurs to homeless individuals and everyone else in-between.
doxydexydroxide 12y ago
A 3rd Generation US born Citizen turns his back on the USA:living the American dream in Vienna, Austria: Lived in Silicon Valley for 20 years founding 4 companies in the process. I am an honest and decent person who was raped each and every time by my co-founders/investors. Only the soulless/ruthless succeed in Silicon Valley. SILICON VALLEY IS A TRAP! Everything is dried out and dead, including the people. Everything is about money, and everybody including your employer has their hands in your wallet. Child care is hideous. People are shallow and self centered. Homeless camps are everywhere, and there is no empathy/compassion for these older "former heroes of high tech" fucked over by the Vulture Crapitalists masters. Work weeks of 80 hours are the norm. Your company owns your soul. Schools are 3rd world. You have no life. Three hours sitting in traffic to get to the beach. No Culture. East Palo Alto is being bought up and the people tossed out on the street. Crime rate is now "off the scale" in both Menlo Park and Palo Alto (Facebook paid to construct and operate a Menlo Park Police Station just to protect its corporate HQ campus). Lived in Boulder Colorado for 3 years. Closest thing one can find to living in Europe in North America. Fell in love with mountain climbing. Primary reason I chose to move my wife and 3 young children to Vienna Austria 11 years ago (easy access to the Alps). I am giving up my US Citizenship this year to become an Austrian. I was back visiting my family in San Jose last year and could not believe how bad the quality of life in the US had sunk to. Vienna Austria:Everything that the US was while I was growing up in the 1970s. Absolute heaven on earth! Those days are over in the USA. Amazing 5 weeks of vacation time. Founded my own GmbH 7 years ago. Government here is more involved with business: Austria has a high hurdle to start a business. 35,000 euros in startup capital, and avg 7 months approval time. This is actually a good thing as it eliminates much of the fraud in US where anybody can become a founder in 20 minutes and 20 dollars. Virtually no crime. Vienna is the best city in the world for 5 years in a row. WELCOME TO THE USA: NOW BEND OVER:You have no credit history so be prepared to pay dearly for everything! Credit Card: 30% interest rate. Apartment: 6 months rent as deposit. Car loan: 40 percent. Power/Gas 600 dollar deposit. Americans are impossible to develop deep long term and meaningful relationships with. They sure are polite, but all relationships are shallow. Everyone is waiting for you to fuck them over, so no one trusts anymore. Austrians are cautious at the beginning, but after a time they are the most trusting people I have ever met. I have never had as many good neighbors and made true friends as I have in Austria. Austrian education system is far superior to the USA! They invest in their peoples future with free higher education and apprentice training programs with the result of the lowest unemployment rate in the world. Austrians, and most Europeans are "social" in "people before profit". As a lifelong capitalist pig, I had no idea that "American Capitalism" is pure theft. Socialists are not communists. Republicanism (US Representative form of government) is not Democracy, and the wealthy minority are protected at the expense of the majority. The Republican form of world government is 4 Oligarchs (US, RUSSIA, INDIA, CHINA) fighting over a lamb (the people). George Carlin was right! George Carlin ~ The American Dream You have to be asleep to believe it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q Advice:Stay in Europe! You do not appreciate how good you have it! Do not be suckered into the fraud known as the American dream of getting rich, or of ever owning your own home (bought and paid for).

62 points by seminole 12y ago

seminole 12y ago

Sorry about the formatting. * 40h workweek * 5 weeks of holiday a year * free/cheap health insurance * free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter.

lbotos 12y ago
Out of the 4 things listed here, in the US the only one that's "normal" is a 40h workweek. 5 weeks of vacation is a lot unless you are really senior or pulled a lot of strings. 2weeks is the average "base" here. Solid health insurance is usually expensive. Public schools are "free" but you are going to have to pay for college. I don't know of any completely free colleges anywhere in the country. (Not saying there aren't any, but I've never heard anyone talk about a good one.)
- tomp 12y ago
  He can always send the daughter (and any other kids) back to Europe for college, it's (mostly) free (for citizens) here.
  - seminole 12y ago
    That was the cunning plan :-)
mpcadosch 12y ago
Go to the US for an extended vacation (month or so), interview with as many companies as you can, and find one that will sponsor an H1-B visa. It'll be hard, but it's worth it.
- levosmetalo 12y ago
  And then wait 5 or more years until your wife is allowed to work there legally, pay obscene amounts of money for child daycare and schools, all while waiting for a green card.
  - gcp 12y ago
    This matches the experience of the people I know that emigrated :-/
ColinWright 12y ago
Generally you have up to 2 hours to edit your post, which is reasonable if you also add a line saying you've done so for formatting purposes.
gte525u 12y ago
Most US companies it's 2-3 weeks of vacation and 10 days a year of public holidays.
- gcp 12y ago
  It's not really that far off from Belgium (20 + 10), but I think your US numbers do assume a competitive job market like programming. His wife might not be so lucky.

jacquesm 12y ago

What countries are you from originally? Plan a holiday to the US, look things over and then make a budget (emigration is far from cheap), save and then decide to back out or bite the bullet. Don't do anything permanent until your visa is in the bag for you, your spouse and your child. Hollywood and anecdotes are not good inputs to a life determining decision like this, consider it a huge project and devote resources accordingly. Why is Belgium disappointing you? The US is definitely not paradise but it may give you chances that are hard to replicate elsewhere. At the same time, I know plenty of people that are successful in the EU. It usually boils down to the people, not the place.

gcp 12y ago
Why is Belgium disappointing you? Well, given that his wife longs for "finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people." I'm going to guess: high housing prices, population density killing nature & unfriendly people. Given that this is HN, I'd add "government and population actively hostile to entrepreneurship" on top of it. You should talk to other people who emigrated, though. One of my friends did, and they found for example that they could hardly afford child daycare because that isn't subsidized in the States, unlike Belgium. There are probably multiple such small surprises lurking.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  When I read that I thought: South of France, Spain, Portugal, Italy. Any one of those would solve the majority of those wishes, and would be a lot easier to get into than the US. The problem is that no country is perfect. You can't get 'free daycare', 'good weather', 'affordable fresh food', 'beautiful nature close by', 'free healthcare', 'friendly and approachable people', '5 weeks of holiday' and 'free education' all in one serving. (Though I believe strongly that friendly and approachable people can be found anywhere, it's a bit of a reflection on how you are usually.) I say that as someone that has lived in a lot of different countries. (.nl, .pl, .ca, .ro and a bunch of others besides but too short to consider relevant in this context).

KhalPanda 12y ago

Just out of curiosity (as a UK resident), how would you plan on moving to the states from a legal standpoint? As far as I'm aware, if you don't have immediate family who are US-citizens, $500k-$1M to invest in a business, marry a US citizen or take employment on a H1-B (not easy), it's not possible?

neverminder 12y ago
I'm an EU citizen as well and I have to agree with you, aside from all you've mentioned plus winning a green card - moving to US is anything but trivial.
- DrJokepu 12y ago
  The Diversity Visa Lottery will be likely repealed in the near future by the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 so that won't be an option for very long.
  - KhalPanda 12y ago
    Plus, the United Kingdom aren't eligible for the lottery anyway. So I guess it depends where OP is from.
    - e15ctr0n 12y ago
      The Diversity Visa Lottery can be granted on the basis of your birthplace, not your current place of residence or current nationality.
  - nobodysfool 12y ago
    That's not likely. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s744 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s744 It only has a 43% chance of passing. It's been up to the house for a year now, it's probably going to be shelved until after 2016.
deleted 12y ago
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davidw 12y ago

> She thinks we'll finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people. That sounds kind of like Italy. Maybe not as much sunshine as California here up north, but it's certainly better than the UK or Belgium from that point of view. Of course, the economy is in the tank, but maybe you can work remotely or something. Going to the US is not easy: you'll have to find a company willing to hire you. That said, if it's what you want, don't let the naysayers get in your way - go on a vacation there, travel around some, meet people, see what day to day life is like, and then go for it! It's not perfect, but there's a lot of good stuff there - much more than some of the haters here give it credit for. Some people work crazy hours, many people don't. As someone who is likely to have a good job, you'll have decent health care, even if the system is a bit screwy. Edit: a few other places to check out might be: * Colorado (Boulder, Denver, Ft. Collins). Snowy, but still quite a bit of sun. If I ever went back to the US, this is high on my list of places to check out. * Austin, Texas. I don't know much about it, but it's supposed to be a nice place, and definitely sunny/hot. * Bend or Ashland in Oregon. Not as sunny as California, and cold in the winters. Not as many jobs either, but nice smallish towns.

tubbzor 12y ago
Since you mentioned it, I'll throw a shameless plug for Fort Collins (and Colorado in general). We do get snow from about November-March but its generally sporadic, however, there's usually 2-3 big snows a year. Despite this, we still get (on average) 300 days of sunshine a year [0]. For work, Foco has offices for Hewlett Packard, Intel, AMD, Avago, National Semiconductor, LSI, and Wolf Robotics. If the start-up scene is more your taste, Fort Collins-Loveland was rated 2nd in the "Top 10 Metro Areas for High-Tech Startup Density" in the United States (with Boulder at #1) in 2013 [1], and is also home to a start-up incubator called Rocky Mountain Innosphere [2]. There are miles of bike trails [3] all over the city and many places to hike nearby as well [4]. Needless to say lots of people are out and about being physically active around here and biking is often the preferred mode of transportion. Other than that I just personally enjoy the atmosphere out here. Since we have a university in town there are tons of little hole-in-the-wall coffee shops open 24/7 (or close to it) and lots of specialty food in the form of restaurants, food trucks, food carts, ect. Old Town area is the main social scene and is always bustling whether people are out getting a bite to eat, walking around, or there are often various festivals taking place. Micro-brew Beer is also a huge part of the culture around here (at least in my circles), as fort collins is home to New Belgium, Odell, and many other micro-breweries and holds a huge beer festival called New West Fest every year. In all, it's a quirky little city that I quite enjoy. Disclaimer: I've lived in the Loveland/Ft. Collins area for 6 years now and just finished my CS degree at Colorado State University. [0] - http://www.fcgov.com/visitor/fcfacts.php http://www.fcgov.com/visitor/fcfacts.php [1] - http://www.kauffman.org/newsroom/2013/08/young-hightech-firms-outpace-private-sector-job-creation http://www.kauffman.org/newsroom/2013/08/young-hightech-firm... [2] - http://www.innosphere.org/ http://www.innosphere.org/ [3] - http://www.fcgov.com/bicycling/pdf/bike-map-front.pdf http://www.fcgov.com/bicycling/pdf/bike-map-front.pdf [4] - http://alltrails.com/us/colorado/fort-collins?ref=header http://alltrails.com/us/colorado/fort-collins?ref=header edit: formatting

abcd_f 12y ago

My all time favourite place in North America is Europe. I am a European. I lived in US for two years, I lived in Canada for 15. I also lived in Sweden and Japan. States are good because it's just one big Walmart - everything is ridiculously cheap, but what it gets in quantity it tends to lose in quality. Canada in this respect is somewhat better, but it has the same problem - it feels ... I don't know ... diluted? Too much stuff, too little substance. It is nice, it is comfortable and affordable, but - and I am dumbing it down considerably - you can't get a decent croissant, because nobody simply gives a shit about getting them right. On the other hand, the grass is always greener on the other side. If you move, you will have at least a couple of years of excitement and novelty. PS. And generally working too much and not enjoying life is in fact the biggest lifestyle issue in States and Canada. No better manifested by the fact that most of the restaurants are there for eating and not for socializing.

tomp 12y ago
Where in the US did you live, and which places in Europe do you prefer? Both are huge, with significant regional differences.
mkr-hn 12y ago
> No better manifested by the fact that most of the restaurants are there for eating and not for socializing. We use bars and the internet for that.
davidw 12y ago
> what it gets in quantity it tends to lose in quality To some degree, yes, but I feel that's something that has been changing some. In the town of 150K people I'm from, you can now get a decent variety of food products from Italy. They're expensive, but at least you can get them. 20 years ago, there's no way you could have even found that stuff. So I think some people are starting to 'get it'. As another example, when my parents moved to Oregon in the 70ies, you could count the number of wineries on one hand. Now there are plenty of them, and some of them produce some decent wine.
mhurron 12y ago
> the restaurants are there for eating and not for socializing I went there to eat, how is this a problem? I don't like people, having to talk to them when I'm trying to have dinner would be annoying.

stefantalpalaru 12y ago

> we'll finally have some sunshine You will and you'll also have the chance to discover the difference between excess and moderation. > lots of affordable fresh food The food is either affordable or good. > live in a house with garden More like a house with a mandatory lawn in a region hit by a very serious drought. You might also want to ask about the rules imposed by the homeowners association and whoever rents you the house. > beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends Yes, if you like deserts and you want to live in SoCal. Note that "close" has a different meaning on that side of the pond. > friendly and approachable people Maybe at first. With time you realize that the friendliness is a form of politeness that hides fear, distrust and greed.

seminole 12y ago
Thanks for the comment. Perhaps a tad negative, but useful when pondering a move based on nothing more than 'vision that was planted in my head'.
pionar 12y ago
Wow, so negative. > Maybe at first. With time you realize that the friendliness is a form of politeness that hides fear, distrust and greed. This is not my experience at all. Maybe in Cali (I've only visited), but the rest of the US is not as cynical or distrustful as you make it out to be. > Yes, if you like deserts and you want to live in SoCal. Note that "close" has a different meaning on that side of the pond. The definition of close enough for a weekend camping trip for me would probably be 200-300 miles. Within that range, no matter where you are in the US, you'll find nice areas for this purpose. > The food is either affordable or good. In restaurants, yes. If you cook your own food, no. There are lots of farmers' markets, local grocery stores, etc., that are no more expensive than buying processed food. > More like a house with a mandatory lawn in a region hit by a very serious drought. You might also want to ask about the rules imposed by the homeowners association and whoever rents you the house. Only in suburbia. If you're out in the country, or in a city, there are (usually) no HOAs and only local zoning laws prevent what you can and can't do. The only requirement (usually) is to keep your grass trimmed to a reasonable height. I agree though, that HOAs are a bad idea and promote cookie-cutter neighborhoods.

lingoberry 12y ago

Unfortunately you don't just "go and work" in the US, it doesn't work like the EU. Unless you're a hot commodity and you can convince Google et al to pay for your visa ($tens of thousands) and then winning the H-1B visa lottery, you will have a tough time.

h1karu 12y ago

The cost of living in the tech-scene areas are outrageous and skyrocketing, those are the facts. The sun-shine California lifestyle can be quite nice you'll need to be prepared to pay out the wazoo. Don't believe it ? Prove me wrong, start looking at the Bay Area rental market.

sspross 12y ago

Come to Switzerland! You'll love it and as an enterprise java dev you'll find a job. Maybe I can help you here in Zürich, silvan.spross[at]gmail.com

bowlofpetunias 12y ago

"And change we got, but not the good kind." This raises a bit of red flag, because lots of people migrate with a vague idea of "the grass is greener" without knowing what they're getting into. Since Belgium is not a bad place to live, I'm wondering what it is you're running away from. And since you put a work/life balance, cheap health insurance and cheap education top of your priorities (all things Belgium already offers) and don't seem to know very much about the US, I wonder why you're not considering the much less complicated and safer option of another EU country? (Also, of all continental European countries, Belgium is probably most like the UK with it's post-industrial similarities.) What is it that makes you think you and your family be happy in the US? I'm getting a strong sense you don't really have a clear picture of that, and are just looking to flee to a magical land far away from your current troubles. I live in a place with lots of expats, and that scenario usually doesn't work out well.

adriaanm 12y ago

Do not underestimate the cost (time & $$$) of immigrating and the in(s)anity of US immigration law. Winning the H1b lottery is probably the easiest way. Getting a green card requires a pretty dedicated sponsor willing to spend $5-10K, not to mention the >1 year wait (this is assuming best case: EU citizen with "US equivalent" of a Masters).

kovrik 12y ago

I'm a 25yo Java developer from Russia. My gf and I don't like (almost hate) our country and we want out. We choose between USA, Netherlands, Germany, Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. I'm not a well-known software engineer, not an outstanding genius (yes, I'm not very confident about my skills) - that is why it seems very difficult for me to get a job outside Russia. But I love programming, I try to learn something new every day, improve my skills and knowledge. And I hope we will get out someday (hope dies last :) ). I wish you good luck - don't worry, everything would be alright!

BugBrother 12y ago
In Scandinavia, most immigrants from Netherlands and Germany I met are the kind of people which spend all free time in a forest or in a canoe on a lake. If nature is important for you, select area carefully in some countries. Also, if you are from south Russia, be aware of the winter dark in Norway. Note that Scandinavians are shy, it is a culture historically from small villages, it takes years to get local friends. Finland has most Russian expatriates, afaik.
- kovrik 12y ago
  Well, I love nature, but I am young and I like life in a big city too :) Currently I live in Saint-Petersburg (most european city in Russia) - it is rather cold here in winters, so low temperatures is not a problem. Also, I'm shy too.
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    StP. As far as I know... Beautiful? Cultured, with lots of good art/music education? Like half London, but with nature quite close? You won't get similar big city life anyplace in Scandinavia. Barcelona, or something? [Disclaimer: Two short visits to St P, quite long ago.] I don't really know any "typical" Russians -- most everyone I ever talked to were intellectual, nerd or artistic [Edit: and none of them drank more than me, either :-)] -- but I believe you might find people in other places be less cool and interesting. But sure, it might be good to get out before the borders are closed again. Russian politicians makes the Swedish cynical hypocritical ones look like angels; at least they aren't integrated with organized crime (afaik). :-( And good luck. Move when you are young and see other places.

lukasm 12y ago

Remote work from Spain?

empressplay 12y ago

Emigration is going to be difficult, isn't it? Companies seem to rarely sponsor immigrants unless they're total rockstars or aqui-hires because in-sourcers like TCS can bring "average" IT workers in cheaper. It looks like the days of Google et. al. recruiting from far-afield are over, unless you're CTO of an early-stage startup someone like Google might buy, or at least have some kick-ass side projects you can point to that will make you irresistibly attractive enough for someone to deal with all of the associated immigration headache, perhaps being better / worse off from a lifestyle perspective is a bit of a moot point? Sorry to be a downer but... cart before horse, etc. etc.

kasey_junk 12y ago

Not to put too fine a point on it, but just saying California isn't really even enough to narrow things down. Remember that California is about the size of Spain, but in many ways with more geographic, population and economic diversity. The cost of living, job opportunities, weather, and life style varies dramatically from San Diego, Los Angeles, Bakersfield, Sacremento, and San Francisco. I'd recommend a trip to see. That said, California is the last place I'd move if I were a tech worker right now. You can get many of the same benefits (except possible access to VC money) in lots of other places. The Research Triangle NC and Austin TX for instance both offer much of what you are asking for at a much more affordable price.

kghose 12y ago

The only way to figure out if you like it is to try it out. Unless this was a bash US starter, in which case, carry on.

comrade1 12y ago

For the sake of your child you should probably stay in Europe. The education system in the u.s. is terrible. 100% of my European friend couples have moved back to Europe as soon as they've gotten pregnant or gave birth in order to provide a better education for their children.

davidw 12y ago
100% of European couples probably also want to be around the child's grandparents, ensure the child learns their own language, and so on. My wife would find it tough to leave Italy for this reason, for instance. Also, as a parent, I think you want to feel somewhere that feels like 'home' - or maybe that's just me. Without kids, I would feel pretty comfortable in a lot of places, but now that we have them, I think I would be less comfortable going somewhere completely new. The educational system isn't that bad in the US if you're in the right place. It varies a lot from state to state and between towns or even areas in a town.
- gcp 12y ago
  100% of European couples probably also want to be around the child's grandparents, ensure the child learns their own language, and so on. We're both arguing without hard data here, but I'll just give an outright "nope" to the above.
  - davidw 12y ago
    These rankings are a bit dubious, but in this one, for instance, the US does not do great, but does do better than Belgium, where the poster wants to move away from: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27314075 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27314075 I want my own kids to have a good education, and would feel comfortable moving back to the US from that point of view. My biggest doubt from that point of view is that I want them to be bilingual in Italian and English, and there is no Italian language education in the US, so it'd be up to my wife and I.
    - gcp 12y ago

gone35 12y ago

Sorry if this doesn't sound as much but... do your research. Ex ante it appears you and your wife are under a lot of misapprehensions and, if I may say, grass-is-greener media/cultural European clichés about the US --too many, perhaps, to disabuse in a single "Ask HN" thread. Like others said below, a good idea would be to come live in the US for, say, a summer or so under a short-term tourist or student visa (eg maybe for a career-related summer course or unpaid internship) and see for yourself.

seminole 12y ago
Yes, well, this is part of research :-) I agree that staying for a while would be ideal, but it's very nearly impossible at this point.

hellbreakslose 12y ago

You didn't mention the visa thing at all. You said you are EU citizens. It's ok for you moving around EU but moving to the US is going to create immigration problems for you. One of you will need to get sponsored for a long-term working visa not the temporary one. Then still I think according to US laws your Wife won't be able to work until you get a Green Card. I heard that they are trying to change that law but still. Sorry to break it down to you like that, you can still try and make it, but its not an easy thing to move to the States especially having a family with you. I'd suggest you apply to 20 companies+ and try schedule them all within a week. So you and your family can go there for a week do your interviews and see if you can get someone to sponsor you. It's not like you said I am just going to move there... If you say that to the officers in the airport asking you the reason for your visit they are definitely not going to let you in.

wellboy 12y ago

Australia dude, best country ever. Salary as high as in California. It has all the good things that the U.S. has, without the bad things.

deleted 12y ago
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schwarzie2478 12y ago

May I ask what your bad experience in Belgium entailed? I'm curious, being belgian and a programmer... Although IT management here ranks very low in my humble opinion, it's not bad working here in the IT sector ( unless you work for banks and financial institutions, those are jerks :-) )

lazyjones 12y ago

I faced this question at the age of 29 (late 90's) when I got an interesting offer to work in Florida (I live in Austria). In the end, I decided against it. At the (2-day) job interview, people who worked there pointed out that the biggest benefit over Europe was the perceived freedom, the feeling that noone would bother them about their private business (this is probably no longer the case / general feeling today). I found the poverty in urban areas most shocking (loitering people, obvious racial inequality). In the end it boils down to whether having your "dream job" (for me it was game programming) is worth both getting ripped out of your surroundings and coping with lower standards in many areas in the US over Europe (well, depends on whether you live in a poor EU country), as well as other issues like the harsher environment (floods, earthquakes). 50-60 hours was a given in the 90's, perhaps it is no longer the case now that Google/FB set the bar higher for job quality. For me it was better to stay, although nowdays I sometimes ponder moving to Switzerland, Norway or perhaps Australia (for different reasons, none involving career perspectives).

RickS 12y ago

If there's one place you'll find a 40 hour work week, it's enterprise Java. Most of the glorified 80 hour work weeks occur in the startup realm. I'm generalizing significantly here, but enterprise is stereotypically a "clock in, check out" type of job at larger companies, and securing something that pays well without sucking up your whole life is very easily doable. Are those 5 weeks of holiday paid? If so, that is not a common benefit in America. Without citizenship, your healthcare coverage is likely to be either costly or limited. Scholarships and grants exist, but a free ride through college is also rare. If you were already a US citizen, this move would be possible (but even for the majority of Americans, what you ask for is off the table), but since you're not, I say move to Canada. Specifically, Toronto. As metropolitan as any American city (with a sufficiently large job market), numerous strong immigrant communities, better healthcare, great food. Nice and clean, fairly safe - I'd have no qualms bringing up a kid there. The surrounding suburbs are very mellow.

turnip1979 12y ago
What about sunshine? But seriously ... we moved to TO after SF and NYC - not that happy with the move. There is a startup scene but not as many choices as the cities we came from. The salaries are also quite a bit lower, stuff is expensive and there are generally more regulations to do with it seems.

manolus 12y ago

Go live in Brazil!

sologoub 12y ago

California is a double-edged sword. I've lived here for over 15 years and it's definitely the place I intend on staying for quite a while. If you plan on being near either Bay Area or the greater Los Angeles area, you have to be ready for the housing prices. A good, safe area with good schools will cost you. A short commute on top of that will cost you double. That said, if you do your research, you can find very solid public schools (school districts) and University is doable, unless you go private. As far as neighbors, it's a mixed bag - there are plenty of great people and there also many fake, greedy, etc. Just like any big city. Culturally, Americans seem to be more predisposed to welcoming people than not. Back to the finances, with the costs of housing, it's not likely that you will be able to be the sole breadwinner. I've been trying to solve this puzzle for a while, but on a single income things just don't pencil... Now the upside - California lifestyle is something else. You have all 4 seasons at your disposal with only a drive or a short flight year round. This opens up a lot of possibilities for enjoying nature/sports. If you are more into just quiet enjoyment, the state offers magnificent areas like Big Sur, that are also surrounded by awesome hotels, camping grounds and wine country. California wine is great and very inexpensive. You also have the beach (really cold water though) and great weather most days out of the year. Downside of Los Angeles is traffic and lack of public transit. In SF, you trade public transit for huge cost of living increase. Never having lived in Belgium, I can't compare. My only experience has been a very short (6 months) stint in the UK and Moscow. I would not come back to either voluntarily after California. If you are not afraid of a little rain, I would strongly recommend you consider Seattle - reasonable weather (I like rain) and not too much cold, great nature and friendly people (by my standards of visiting and working with a few great folks), no state income tax (CA works out to an extra 10% for me), a lot lower cost of living with similar level of education offered by the local school system.

yodsanklai 12y ago

Novelty and the feeling of doing something different are very good reasons to move. Salaries will be higher in the US but without a doubt you will lose in term of vacations and free time. Everything you wife mention, you can have in Europe. Food wise, I think you're better off in Europe if you like fresh inexpensive food. The nature on the west coast is incredible. The national parks there are among the most impressive places I've seen. However, with 2 weeks vacations, you may not have much time to visit them. You can't really go to the grand canyon for a weekend for instance. You'll have more time to go there on vacation while you work in Europe!

ashazar 12y ago

Just sharing my bookmarks that were previously discussed on HN. Hope you can find some useful info in them. Best of luck for your journey. 1. What's the best place in the U.S. to live and work cheaply? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6702111 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6702111 2. What's the best place in Europe to live and work cheaply? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6703058 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6703058 3. Where can I move cheaply to work by myself for a year? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6700531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6700531 4. A "Hacker's" Guide to the Bay Area http://islandofatlas.net/2013/10/04/a-hackers-guide-to-the-bay-area.html http://islandofatlas.net/2013/10/04/a-hackers-guide-to-the-b... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6502430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6502430

TheSmoke 12y ago

Some random thoughts: - The most important thing for me: EU states are social states and US is not. - You are not going to get a free health insurance or cheap but quality education for your daughter like in Europe. (Not saying she won't get quality education, just saying it won't be cheap as we are used to in Europe.) - US is not a developer's paradise but it's a paradise of possibilities and opportunities. - http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/CA/house,condo,mobile,land,townhouse_type/9_rid/1-_beds/42.617791,-110.302734,31.821565,-128.29834_rect/5_zm/ http://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/CA/house,condo,mobile,l... In that link there is a list of houses with a garden that you can buy to give you the idea. For the places that you would think you could afford, there is a possibility of living without a job. (Find remote work and it all works out?) But I think they are better houses than houses in most of the Europe. - You can think of Austin, Boston or Chicago instead of California cities. - Wait, there's another possibility: You can move to Berlin, Vienna, Istanbul, Mugla, Izmir or Aydin. You'd work remotely most of the time except for Istanbul, Berlin and Vienna. - Food in Europe is a lot better than in the US and by food I mean real food, not the cereals, cookies or things they eat thinking they're having breakfast. :) (At least in SF) - I tend to think that startups are not for people that are married and with children. They are demanding and consuming. Unless it's your own because only then it'd be worth to your efforts and time. We all know that. Wish you all the luck for whatever you decide and let me tell you one more thing. You should absolutely be grateful for the wife of yours. Mine is not moving a centimetre..

foobarian 12y ago

I'm lucky to work for a Boston shop where work/life balance is good relative to my perception of the average American software company, specifically, close to 40 hour work weeks, "death marches" strongly discouraged by upper management because they get how bad they are for turnover, 3 weeks vacation at start, then one more week after every 3 years. One thing about vacations in US is that no matter how much time one gets on paper, I found the company cultures to look down on taking time off. It's almost like people are ashamed to take their vacation time.

deodorel 12y ago

You look for sunshine, sea, jobs and an european location? Have you considered Sophia Antipolis, on the French cote d'Azur? I live and work there and it's quite nice, and you'll surly find a lot of java jobs.

__xtrimsky 12y ago

26 yo that used to live in California, but lives in NY now. You don't get sunshine everywhere in California. I personally hated the weather in San Francisco, but a bit to the south (Mountain View) is already much nicer. Now I'll go through your requirements: 40h workweek: Yes easy to find 5 weeks of holiday a year: That is almost impossible to find in my experience, except if you are willing to get 3 weeks out of your pocket. (meaning you are actually deducting your pay) free/cheap health insurance: Find a company with health insurance, and then you should be able to have one for your family, and only pay an extra of 200 to 600$ / month (yes that is cheap in the US) free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter: that's not possible, you will have to pay for college. I think you can get one cheaper if you live more than 6 months in that state, and then send your daughter to a state college. Here is an example of a university near me (starts at 4000$ / year): http://www.stonybrook.edu/bursar/tuition/tuition-and-fee-rates.shtml http://www.stonybrook.edu/bursar/tuition/tuition-and-fee-rat...

__xtrimsky 12y ago
PS: there is a way to get your college paid for, and that is scholarships, if your child is extremely good in school, he/she can get any college paid for. But you can't count on it as it is something very hard to do. But my cousin got 8+ years of medical schools paid for, and also her rent was paid for.

awjr 12y ago

I'm going to add something from the experience of being the kid that was dragged around Germany and the USA from the age of 3 to the age of 12 moving every 2 years. Positives: - I was put into the german school system learning german almost like a 'native' and I still have it. (Massive positive) - Luckily I had 2 brothers. We'd move somewhere new, clump up as a gang, then slowly get to know people and get our own set of friends. - I still find it easy to make friends. Negatives: - Become good friends with somebody, move on. - Making new friends all the time. - I found my memories of Germany 3-10 better than the USA (10-12) but in Germany we were thrown on to our bikes and rode off into the countryside for the day (we lived in villages). In the USA we were driven everywhere although we did have a pool (Florida). - When we finally came back to the UK I found it slightly odd. Culturally I'd missed out on a lot. Schools were much of a muchness. Of note we were in public school and then quickly moved to private school in the USA (this was 1980).

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eshvk 12y ago

I moved to America six years ago. I have lived in California, Texas and now live in New York. > My wife keeps saying we should move to US, perhaps California. She thinks we'll finally have some sunshine, lots of affordable fresh food, perhaps live in a house with garden, beautiful nature close enough to actually go camping for the weekends, and friendly and approachable people Sure, if you lived in Nor Cal, somewhere close to Marin or in the East Bay, you could probably get that. It is kind of puzzling to me that you would go all the way to America for this though. Wouldn't you prefer to live in the EU closer to a community ? > 40h workweek 5 weeks of holiday a year free/cheap health insurance free/cheap education up to university level for our daughter. You are not going to get a 40 hour work week in America. It might be close to 60 hours. At least 50. Again, depends on the place. If you work for a big company like Google, things will be reasonably. Early stage startup. Miserable. Vacation is 2 weeks - 4 weeks. Health insurance has always been paid for me by my employer. Schools, I can't comment. I don't have offspring. Someone mentioned other regions. Let me give you a quick run through considering that long term, America is my home but I don't know whether I want to live in a city. Austin, Texas. Too small, too hot. Still too Texan. New York. I love NYC. But it is not what your wife would want. It is a Megapolis. Colorado. I fucking love Colorado. Boulder is amazing, it is a great college town with all those beautiful girls. Great opportunities for hiking. It has a great and upcoming tech scene. Honestly, if I were ever to buy a summer home or move elsewhere in the U.S., it would be Colorado.

runewell 12y ago

We would love to have you and your family. The USA is so large and diverse that practically any living scenario is possible. If you want to live near nature with sunshine, fresh affordable food, and a home with a garden then I would suggest checking out more rural parts of northern California. There are many employers that will allow you to work onsite part-time (one day a week, month, or quarter) and the rest of your time at home, assuming your output is acceptable and you are available during working hours. Special arrangements such as this are more difficult in the beginning but are very easy to setup if you have proven yourself to be a productive programmer. I would suggest checking out areas such as Redding, CA. If you make over $100k a year you could get yourself setup with a nice place such as the link below. http://sacramento.craigslist.org/reb/4450341909.html http://sacramento.craigslist.org/reb/4450341909.html More properties in that area: http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/rea?query=acre&sale_date=-&housing_type=6&hasPic=1 http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/rea?query=acre&sale_... Note: Life can be wonderful in the USA but our healthcare and education system need work. Healthcare is fantastic if you get good insurance, but that will cost you each month. Being a programmer, it is likely your employer will provide health insurance. Our Universities are some of the best in the world (ex. MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, Carnegie Mellon, etc), but our elementary and high school education system is inefficient so you may want to consider one of the many private school options in your area. This too will be costly. Basically expect to pay 10-15% of your salary towards making up for our deficiencies in these areas. Work/life balance is entirely possible here although many European countries structure their national policies around promoting such ideas while the USA pretty much leaves it up to the individual to organize their life in the way they see fit. This is why we have so many people living on the extremes, from super-star entrepreneurs to homeless individuals and everyone else in-between.

doxydexydroxide 12y ago

A 3rd Generation US born Citizen turns his back on the USA:living the American dream in Vienna, Austria: Lived in Silicon Valley for 20 years founding 4 companies in the process. I am an honest and decent person who was raped each and every time by my co-founders/investors. Only the soulless/ruthless succeed in Silicon Valley. SILICON VALLEY IS A TRAP! Everything is dried out and dead, including the people. Everything is about money, and everybody including your employer has their hands in your wallet. Child care is hideous. People are shallow and self centered. Homeless camps are everywhere, and there is no empathy/compassion for these older "former heroes of high tech" fucked over by the Vulture Crapitalists masters. Work weeks of 80 hours are the norm. Your company owns your soul. Schools are 3rd world. You have no life. Three hours sitting in traffic to get to the beach. No Culture. East Palo Alto is being bought up and the people tossed out on the street. Crime rate is now "off the scale" in both Menlo Park and Palo Alto (Facebook paid to construct and operate a Menlo Park Police Station just to protect its corporate HQ campus). Lived in Boulder Colorado for 3 years. Closest thing one can find to living in Europe in North America. Fell in love with mountain climbing. Primary reason I chose to move my wife and 3 young children to Vienna Austria 11 years ago (easy access to the Alps). I am giving up my US Citizenship this year to become an Austrian. I was back visiting my family in San Jose last year and could not believe how bad the quality of life in the US had sunk to. Vienna Austria:Everything that the US was while I was growing up in the 1970s. Absolute heaven on earth! Those days are over in the USA. Amazing 5 weeks of vacation time. Founded my own GmbH 7 years ago. Government here is more involved with business: Austria has a high hurdle to start a business. 35,000 euros in startup capital, and avg 7 months approval time. This is actually a good thing as it eliminates much of the fraud in US where anybody can become a founder in 20 minutes and 20 dollars. Virtually no crime. Vienna is the best city in the world for 5 years in a row. WELCOME TO THE USA: NOW BEND OVER:You have no credit history so be prepared to pay dearly for everything! Credit Card: 30% interest rate. Apartment: 6 months rent as deposit. Car loan: 40 percent. Power/Gas 600 dollar deposit. Americans are impossible to develop deep long term and meaningful relationships with. They sure are polite, but all relationships are shallow. Everyone is waiting for you to fuck them over, so no one trusts anymore. Austrians are cautious at the beginning, but after a time they are the most trusting people I have ever met. I have never had as many good neighbors and made true friends as I have in Austria. Austrian education system is far superior to the USA! They invest in their peoples future with free higher education and apprentice training programs with the result of the lowest unemployment rate in the world. Austrians, and most Europeans are "social" in "people before profit". As a lifelong capitalist pig, I had no idea that "American Capitalism" is pure theft. Socialists are not communists. Republicanism (US Representative form of government) is not Democracy, and the wealthy minority are protected at the expense of the majority. The Republican form of world government is 4 Oligarchs (US, RUSSIA, INDIA, CHINA) fighting over a lamb (the people). George Carlin was right! George Carlin ~ The American Dream You have to be asleep to believe it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q Advice:Stay in Europe! You do not appreciate how good you have it! Do not be suckered into the fraud known as the American dream of getting rich, or of ever owning your own home (bought and paid for).