6 ms·

For Frustrated Gifted Kids, A World of Online Opportunities

84 points by tokenadult 12y ago

nwenzel 12y ago
“These students are going to produce an outsized portion of the major technological, medical, mathematical, scientific, economic advances of the next generation,” When I was In school, there was a GATE program (gifted and talented education ???). But I think it was meant to target the top 10% or 20% of students. But when you think about where the really big advances for civilization will come from, maybe there should be a focus on the top 1% or 2%. That's sort of the opposite of public school today. I suppose instead of No Child Left Behind, it's No Child Left Unchallenged.
- jhspaybar 12y ago
  I too was in GATE, and I think it's still around. However, where I live now, there actually is a program for the top 1% and they have their own dedicated school. It may not be common, but this focus on the very top is happening in some places at least.
- Qworg 12y ago
  The newest ways of thinking about schools as learning communities have moved from the "pyramid of intervention" or how to save failing students, to a more holistic "diamond" that covers both ends of the spectrum. While not super common AFAIK, it is moving.
- jacobolus 12y ago
  Plenty of children struggle in school and go on to do amazing things afterward, and plenty of “child geniuses” are lavished with attention and go on to do nothing notable. The purpose of a school should be to encourage all students to flourish, not to pick the ones who will “advance civilization” at age 5.
  - pbhjpbhj 12y ago
    So, just ignore the potential benefit to society of identifying and using the brains of those who are "gifted"? We don't have to ditch the program of public schooling in order to do so. Arguably by not challenging those at the top end of the academic achievement spectrum one is not "encourag[ing] all students to flourish".
  - netcan 12y ago
    This is a bit of a straw-man. No one is suggesting teaching just the top 1% and leaving the rest to fend for themselves. Just putting them in a separate class for a few hour a week so they can be with other smart kids and be challenged. The bottom 10-20% in every subject could probably use something similar.
- glenra 12y ago
  California had a grade-school program in the 1970s called MGM - "Mentally Gifted Minors" - which focused on the top 2% (IQ 132+). It was cool, but IIRC at my school it basically replaced a single class period per week - I think it was taught by one part-time teacher who rotated between different schools on different days, trying to keep kids intellectually engaged and relieve them from the most tedious stuff they would otherwise have to suffer through. These new tools (or Khan Academy, or even the self-paced books that homeschoolers used to use) would probably allow kids to make a lot more progress were they so inclined.
  - zach 12y ago
    The Los Angeles school district has run a program since at least the early 80s which, I kid you not, focuses on the top 0.1% in "intellectual giftedness". I attended this program in elementary school and met the most interesting people I knew before going to college. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_Gifted_Magnet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_Gifted_Magnet
gokhan 12y ago
My son was converting binary to decimal when he was 5, found (x+1)^2 = x^2 + 2x + 1 by himself at the age of 6. Now he's interested in logarithmic calculations, doing very well on Chesstempo, learns languages using Duolingo and loves reading heavy books on his Kindle at the age of 7. On the other hand, he never interested in any kind of sports (only exception is, thanks to Strider balance bikes, he's good at cycling). He's having trouble building relations with other kids around his age, sometimes hits or creatively frustrates them to cover his lack of physical skills. Any parent can find billions of great things online for the gifted child. It would be great if it was that easy for my child to deal with the real world.
- andrem 12y ago
  I agree with you here - if parents invest the time and are able to understand their child's needs it is not too difficult to find enough material online or actually offline. Taking your story as an example, I take it you are somewhat versed in maths yourself to appreciate what your son has done and probably assisted in the introduction to the subject matter at the time (I am making assumptions here - sorry if that's not correct) Let's say though your kid is gifted in other areas that you have no personal attachment to - how does one go about kindling that interest? If your kid seems to be great in drawing but you have no clue about the fine arts, how can one add meaningful stimulus to support and encourage further study in that field?
- delackner 12y ago
  This is a long shot, but have you tried taking him to an indoor bouldering gym? It is a very mentally demanding physical activity, that does not require any outside interaction with others but at the same time encourages it while also developing an appreciation for physicality. My friend's son started going when he was 3, so no there is no time too early.
  - gokhan 12y ago
    I once researched for it but we don't have such a gym in my city. There are a couple of them in Istanbul (1 hr), I'll take a look. I didn't know that bouldering is a mentally demanding sport but now understand the routes and colored handles' purpose when I think of them, my son would love such challenges. Thanks.
netcan 12y ago
General question (I know nothing, just musing). Is there any specific reason or logic behind accelerating gifted kids through the primary-secondary-college system? If you had school dedicated to these kids, could they just go through the standard material faster,2 hours a day, 2 days a week or 2 months a year? That would take care of the boredom problem. There are stimulating things other than school. I don't see any particular advantage in entering college at 14.
- sakunthala 12y ago
  For your average, middle-class parents this isn't practical. They have jobs & school is pretty much free daycare they wouldn't want to give up. There are so many advantages to entering college at 14. For a start, it looks great on your resume. Which means you have a whole host of cool work opportunities when you graduate, meaning you can start a fun and interesting career at 18- rather than slog on through the system, waiting to be recognised at 22-25. Source: know a lot of Thiel fellows.
jxjdjr 12y ago
As a profoundly gifted child the having the Internet would have transformed my life. If I had had access to the knowledge I have access to now I would have been where I am now at 32 by the time I went to University at 20. I would probably not have fallen into the dark depression in my teens, induced primarily by boredom. It is going to be exciting to see what the exceptional people of the next generation will look like, very exciting :)
- aswanson 12y ago
  I thought along the same lines of what having the internet would have meant in terms of supercharging my progress as well, but also thought about the number of easy distractions it provides. Would you have been where you are at 32 in terms of knowledge, or would you have spend 80 percent of your time leveling up on Wow or some other easy temptation? Always helps to reflect on the total context of the situation.
mcdougle 12y ago
We need to be doing something for these kids. I know when I was in school I was incredibly bored and underwhelmed. I'd typically understand a concept pretty quickly when it was introduced, and then have nothing to do while the teacher had to explain it a million times for the next several days, and I'd finish my tests and work much more quickly than most, too. I dunno if I was necessarily one of the brightest minds out there, but school did always come easy to me. So, I'd do other things when I didn't need to pay attention. When I was really little, I'd act out. Doctors tried to tell my parents I had ADD and prescribe drugs -- fortunately my parents knew better (my dad had the same issues when he was a kid). Later, I actually found a healthy outlet -- I brought a sketchpad to school and drew pictures when I wasn't learning anything. Still, the teachers got upset and eventually took that away. I feel like it would've been a lot more beneficial to me if there had been some alternative. Or, at least, if I hadn't constantly got in trouble for what essentially amounts to being bored.
- ssdfsdf 12y ago
  We don't need to do anything for these kids. They have the internet now, that is all that is needed.
  - barry-cotter 12y ago
    Charitably assuming that was sarcasm, no that is not all that is needed. Boring the crap out of children and teaching them that no one cares what they want and that people with authority can shit all over them with impunity may be good preparation for adult life but one can in fact do better. Even working under the constraint that there must be a place for parents to park their children while they go work one can do a lot better. Montessori and Sudbury/Democratic schools do not work on the sit down shut up and do as you're told model and they do very well. And if we're going to do the sit down, shut up and do as you're told model why can't we at least use the best method for it, Direct Instruction?
    - ssdfsdf 12y ago
      It's not sarcasm. There is nothing you can do for them that will be better than allowing them the free time to learn at their own pace from the internet. A highly gifted or profoundly gifted child does not need education in the traditional sense, they need emotional support. The intellectual support the average teacher is going to be able to provide will very frequently be inadequate. It was suggested I go to a democratic school, but I declined. Such a thing would have been good for me,but what would have been better: Just let me get on with learning about the world with a group of my peers.
dekhn 12y ago
all I can say is, thanks you to my elementary school for running a gifted and talented program, and for the nearby university letting me use their internet access (this was in the era of 1200 baud modems). Everything I get to do today is because those things enabled me to learn on my own. Anyway, I don't know that reading at a high level at a young age really is a good predictor for future success (measured in impact, rather than, say, dollars).
zacinbusiness 12y ago
My elementary school had an "academically gifted" program which I was a part of. They put us there during the school day, isolating us from our classmates and making us seem even more "weird" than we already were. It didn't bother me, because I've never really been a "people person." But I'm sure it wasn't the best idea for some of the rest. Of note: we were the only students in the school that were allowed unsupervised computer access, and it's where I pulled off my very first "computer crime." I found a special menu that was accessible via a series of held keys, one of which happened to be "print screen." I got caught because stacks and stacks of papers were printed off in the office, and I was officially banned from the computers. Fun times :-)
digita88 12y ago
By the time I was 16 I was ready to do university level subjects in my chosen field and was even on a course that would have articulated to it - so instead of graduating high school I would have dropped out. School principal didn't want me to drop out, so organised a meeting with myself, her and the careers counsellor which left me shaken up! I ended up finishing high school but at some personal cost - failed a subject, got depressed and ended skipping 1-2 days per week.
tedchs 12y ago
Ask any teacher, and they'll tell you that any given school is only capable of properly serving the middle 90%, or, at best, 95%, of its students.
tekalon 12y ago
As a 'gifted' but bored student, I see so many programs (online, self paced programs) that I would have loved. My youngest brother was able to graduate from high school a year early with honors, yet he was the least academic out of all of us kids (5 total). I went to small high school with only AP Spanish and AP Calculus, of which getting into depended on what track you were put into in middle school (didn't make it due to just moving into the area). My parents were also very wary about not screwing us up socially (no skipping grades). Having these types of programs that go with you if your family moves, interest changes or anything else, would have been amazing!
- jsf9drkyle 12y ago
  "gifted" ..phew who told you so ?
jsf9drkyle 12y ago
how this will not create more divide in already divided society ? Counter argument could be made that everyone starts at level zero and their environment/condition make them learn slow or fast. Just telling your kids that they are gifted won't make them gifted. I know hundred of cases where parents told their child since early childhood that they are special, they are gifted but eventually child failed, fall behind even behind those considered "slow" All people commenting here that "they are gifted" should really take second look. Solving a math equation fast doesn't make you gifted. Life is far far complex than classroom maths. So STFU and have beer. Its friday !

84 points by tokenadult 12y ago

“These students are going to produce an outsized portion of the major technological, medical, mathematical, scientific, economic advances of the next generation,” When I was In school, there was a GATE program (gifted and talented education ???). But I think it was meant to target the top 10% or 20% of students. But when you think about where the really big advances for civilization will come from, maybe there should be a focus on the top 1% or 2%. That's sort of the opposite of public school today. I suppose instead of No Child Left Behind, it's No Child Left Unchallenged.

jhspaybar 12y ago
I too was in GATE, and I think it's still around. However, where I live now, there actually is a program for the top 1% and they have their own dedicated school. It may not be common, but this focus on the very top is happening in some places at least.
Qworg 12y ago
The newest ways of thinking about schools as learning communities have moved from the "pyramid of intervention" or how to save failing students, to a more holistic "diamond" that covers both ends of the spectrum. While not super common AFAIK, it is moving.
jacobolus 12y ago
Plenty of children struggle in school and go on to do amazing things afterward, and plenty of “child geniuses” are lavished with attention and go on to do nothing notable. The purpose of a school should be to encourage all students to flourish, not to pick the ones who will “advance civilization” at age 5.
- pbhjpbhj 12y ago
  So, just ignore the potential benefit to society of identifying and using the brains of those who are "gifted"? We don't have to ditch the program of public schooling in order to do so. Arguably by not challenging those at the top end of the academic achievement spectrum one is not "encourag[ing] all students to flourish".
- netcan 12y ago
  This is a bit of a straw-man. No one is suggesting teaching just the top 1% and leaving the rest to fend for themselves. Just putting them in a separate class for a few hour a week so they can be with other smart kids and be challenged. The bottom 10-20% in every subject could probably use something similar.
glenra 12y ago
California had a grade-school program in the 1970s called MGM - "Mentally Gifted Minors" - which focused on the top 2% (IQ 132+). It was cool, but IIRC at my school it basically replaced a single class period per week - I think it was taught by one part-time teacher who rotated between different schools on different days, trying to keep kids intellectually engaged and relieve them from the most tedious stuff they would otherwise have to suffer through. These new tools (or Khan Academy, or even the self-paced books that homeschoolers used to use) would probably allow kids to make a lot more progress were they so inclined.
- zach 12y ago
  The Los Angeles school district has run a program since at least the early 80s which, I kid you not, focuses on the top 0.1% in "intellectual giftedness". I attended this program in elementary school and met the most interesting people I knew before going to college. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_Gifted_Magnet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_Gifted_Magnet

gokhan 12y ago

My son was converting binary to decimal when he was 5, found (x+1)^2 = x^2 + 2x + 1 by himself at the age of 6. Now he's interested in logarithmic calculations, doing very well on Chesstempo, learns languages using Duolingo and loves reading heavy books on his Kindle at the age of 7. On the other hand, he never interested in any kind of sports (only exception is, thanks to Strider balance bikes, he's good at cycling). He's having trouble building relations with other kids around his age, sometimes hits or creatively frustrates them to cover his lack of physical skills. Any parent can find billions of great things online for the gifted child. It would be great if it was that easy for my child to deal with the real world.

andrem 12y ago
I agree with you here - if parents invest the time and are able to understand their child's needs it is not too difficult to find enough material online or actually offline. Taking your story as an example, I take it you are somewhat versed in maths yourself to appreciate what your son has done and probably assisted in the introduction to the subject matter at the time (I am making assumptions here - sorry if that's not correct) Let's say though your kid is gifted in other areas that you have no personal attachment to - how does one go about kindling that interest? If your kid seems to be great in drawing but you have no clue about the fine arts, how can one add meaningful stimulus to support and encourage further study in that field?
delackner 12y ago
This is a long shot, but have you tried taking him to an indoor bouldering gym? It is a very mentally demanding physical activity, that does not require any outside interaction with others but at the same time encourages it while also developing an appreciation for physicality. My friend's son started going when he was 3, so no there is no time too early.
- gokhan 12y ago
  I once researched for it but we don't have such a gym in my city. There are a couple of them in Istanbul (1 hr), I'll take a look. I didn't know that bouldering is a mentally demanding sport but now understand the routes and colored handles' purpose when I think of them, my son would love such challenges. Thanks.

netcan 12y ago

General question (I know nothing, just musing). Is there any specific reason or logic behind accelerating gifted kids through the primary-secondary-college system? If you had school dedicated to these kids, could they just go through the standard material faster,2 hours a day, 2 days a week or 2 months a year? That would take care of the boredom problem. There are stimulating things other than school. I don't see any particular advantage in entering college at 14.

sakunthala 12y ago
For your average, middle-class parents this isn't practical. They have jobs & school is pretty much free daycare they wouldn't want to give up. There are so many advantages to entering college at 14. For a start, it looks great on your resume. Which means you have a whole host of cool work opportunities when you graduate, meaning you can start a fun and interesting career at 18- rather than slog on through the system, waiting to be recognised at 22-25. Source: know a lot of Thiel fellows.

jxjdjr 12y ago

As a profoundly gifted child the having the Internet would have transformed my life. If I had had access to the knowledge I have access to now I would have been where I am now at 32 by the time I went to University at 20. I would probably not have fallen into the dark depression in my teens, induced primarily by boredom. It is going to be exciting to see what the exceptional people of the next generation will look like, very exciting :)

aswanson 12y ago
I thought along the same lines of what having the internet would have meant in terms of supercharging my progress as well, but also thought about the number of easy distractions it provides. Would you have been where you are at 32 in terms of knowledge, or would you have spend 80 percent of your time leveling up on Wow or some other easy temptation? Always helps to reflect on the total context of the situation.

mcdougle 12y ago

We need to be doing something for these kids. I know when I was in school I was incredibly bored and underwhelmed. I'd typically understand a concept pretty quickly when it was introduced, and then have nothing to do while the teacher had to explain it a million times for the next several days, and I'd finish my tests and work much more quickly than most, too. I dunno if I was necessarily one of the brightest minds out there, but school did always come easy to me. So, I'd do other things when I didn't need to pay attention. When I was really little, I'd act out. Doctors tried to tell my parents I had ADD and prescribe drugs -- fortunately my parents knew better (my dad had the same issues when he was a kid). Later, I actually found a healthy outlet -- I brought a sketchpad to school and drew pictures when I wasn't learning anything. Still, the teachers got upset and eventually took that away. I feel like it would've been a lot more beneficial to me if there had been some alternative. Or, at least, if I hadn't constantly got in trouble for what essentially amounts to being bored.

ssdfsdf 12y ago
We don't need to do anything for these kids. They have the internet now, that is all that is needed.
- barry-cotter 12y ago
  Charitably assuming that was sarcasm, no that is not all that is needed. Boring the crap out of children and teaching them that no one cares what they want and that people with authority can shit all over them with impunity may be good preparation for adult life but one can in fact do better. Even working under the constraint that there must be a place for parents to park their children while they go work one can do a lot better. Montessori and Sudbury/Democratic schools do not work on the sit down shut up and do as you're told model and they do very well. And if we're going to do the sit down, shut up and do as you're told model why can't we at least use the best method for it, Direct Instruction?
  - ssdfsdf 12y ago
    It's not sarcasm. There is nothing you can do for them that will be better than allowing them the free time to learn at their own pace from the internet. A highly gifted or profoundly gifted child does not need education in the traditional sense, they need emotional support. The intellectual support the average teacher is going to be able to provide will very frequently be inadequate. It was suggested I go to a democratic school, but I declined. Such a thing would have been good for me,but what would have been better: Just let me get on with learning about the world with a group of my peers.

dekhn 12y ago

all I can say is, thanks you to my elementary school for running a gifted and talented program, and for the nearby university letting me use their internet access (this was in the era of 1200 baud modems). Everything I get to do today is because those things enabled me to learn on my own. Anyway, I don't know that reading at a high level at a young age really is a good predictor for future success (measured in impact, rather than, say, dollars).

zacinbusiness 12y ago

My elementary school had an "academically gifted" program which I was a part of. They put us there during the school day, isolating us from our classmates and making us seem even more "weird" than we already were. It didn't bother me, because I've never really been a "people person." But I'm sure it wasn't the best idea for some of the rest. Of note: we were the only students in the school that were allowed unsupervised computer access, and it's where I pulled off my very first "computer crime." I found a special menu that was accessible via a series of held keys, one of which happened to be "print screen." I got caught because stacks and stacks of papers were printed off in the office, and I was officially banned from the computers. Fun times :-)

digita88 12y ago

By the time I was 16 I was ready to do university level subjects in my chosen field and was even on a course that would have articulated to it - so instead of graduating high school I would have dropped out. School principal didn't want me to drop out, so organised a meeting with myself, her and the careers counsellor which left me shaken up! I ended up finishing high school but at some personal cost - failed a subject, got depressed and ended skipping 1-2 days per week.

tedchs 12y ago

Ask any teacher, and they'll tell you that any given school is only capable of properly serving the middle 90%, or, at best, 95%, of its students.

tekalon 12y ago

As a 'gifted' but bored student, I see so many programs (online, self paced programs) that I would have loved. My youngest brother was able to graduate from high school a year early with honors, yet he was the least academic out of all of us kids (5 total). I went to small high school with only AP Spanish and AP Calculus, of which getting into depended on what track you were put into in middle school (didn't make it due to just moving into the area). My parents were also very wary about not screwing us up socially (no skipping grades). Having these types of programs that go with you if your family moves, interest changes or anything else, would have been amazing!

jsf9drkyle 12y ago
"gifted" ..phew who told you so ?

jsf9drkyle 12y ago

how this will not create more divide in already divided society ? Counter argument could be made that everyone starts at level zero and their environment/condition make them learn slow or fast. Just telling your kids that they are gifted won't make them gifted. I know hundred of cases where parents told their child since early childhood that they are special, they are gifted but eventually child failed, fall behind even behind those considered "slow" All people commenting here that "they are gifted" should really take second look. Solving a math equation fast doesn't make you gifted. Life is far far complex than classroom maths. So STFU and have beer. Its friday !