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Zenimax Sues Oculus

140 points by highCs 12y ago

Arjuna 12y ago
Here is a copy of the complaint [1]. Originally posted here [2]. Interesting reading... [1] http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4490157/1-main.pdf http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4490157/1-main.pdf [2] http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/21/5739086/oculus-vr-and-its-founder-sued-by-zenimax-and-id-software http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/21/5739086/oculus-vr-and-its-...
- leorocky 12y ago
  Weird, but that PDF URL blows up Chrome for me when I click if from there, but not when I click it from the Verge article. It's the same URL.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- cjslep 12y ago
  It is a shame that such a delightful piece of technology is getting mired in human politics. The complaint, being from one viewpoint, definitely portrays a grey area during those two years of ZeniMax "nicely asking". I guess I am just a little upset at the prospect that this could delay or effect the quality of Oculus. I do not know the VR industry enough to know if this lawsuit would cause side effects in any competitors. Edit: Clarified "this lawsuit" and "side effects in any competitors".
  - ekianjo 12y ago
    It's not about politics, it's about grabbing some money from Oculus now that Facebook backed them up. Where there is a lot of cash, there's usually a lawsuit not far away. And most of the time this is settled out of court for undisclosed amounts.
    - thenmar 12y ago
      Did you read the complaint, or at least the first few pages of it? I'm as big a fan of the Rift as anyone, but as another commenter said, it is "pretty damning" if you look at it objectively.
      - lawnchair_larry 12y ago
        Eh, not really, because it's the plaintiff's complaint. It's supposed to seem damning or the lawyer isn't doing their job. That's like reading an indictment and expecting it to be anywhere close to reality. You can't really start to judge until after the facts are out and everyone has had a chance to address allegations.
- mbel 12y ago
  I was expecting Carmack's name to appear in the press release. I cannot say I'm disappointed after reading the complaint. The whole piece reads as if ZeniMax felt that it has somehow acquired possession of Carmack's knowledge (or any other of its employees), which at least for me seems to be totally absurd.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - interpol_p 12y ago
    It's not that absurd. A lot of the VR demos used Zenimax games, and many of the videos and interviews were filmed right inside Zenimax offices. Code was written on Zenimax time and file transfers, emails for advice, and more were made over Zenimax email addresses. Carmack obviously re-wrote all code once leaving Zenimax, but there's a case to be made that Zenimax giving Carmack free reign to work on Oculus while at Zenimax significantly benefited Oculus. Oculus agreed at some point — offering Zenimax a 2% stake. Zenimax asked for more (amount not specified in the complaint). Oculus response was that the "figure was so far out of the ballpark, we believe there is little hope" — negotiations broke down there.
sillysaurus3 12y ago
What a shortsighted move. Who would want to work for Zenimax after this? Whatever Zenimax gets out of this lawsuit will be overshadowed by the goodwill they've lost. EDIT: Who would want to work someplace that will aggressively assert rights over your personal projects? Let's assume Carmack happened to work on VR within a Zenimax office. We're talking about someone who created Armadillo Aerospace. If Carmack felt like developing VR outside of Zenimax offices, he obviously could have. So it must be true that Zenimax didn't actually help VR in any substantial way. Carmack's VR development just happened to take place within a Zenimax building. And now they're going after him for it, while playing it off like VR wouldn't have existed without Zenimax's contributions. EDIT2: What convinced me was a thought experiment: imagine Zenimax without Carmack. Now think of all the ways that our imaginary entity could possibly contribute to the development of VR. At best, our entity provided a building for Carmack to pursue his personal interests in (a "mad scientist lab," as the Complaint calls it). Maybe some marketing, but who would deny that the hype would have rolled in regardless of whatever Zenimax did to help it along? Two seconds looking through a Rift is enough to transform anyone into an evangelist. The VR ball began rolling due to the efforts of Carmack, not Zenimax. So, let's say you're Zenimax. You have Carmack working for you, working on all kinds of cool projects; whatever interests him. Choose your adventure: - Stand to benefit by the halo effect of having a living legend on your payroll; a legend who gets the entire gamedev industry interested in projects happening at your company. Attract top talent by virtue of the buzz, and a creative's natural desire to be a part of cool projects. Your new top talent goes on to create many millions of dollars of value for your company. - Try to assert control over whatever Carmack makes. Make it abundantly clear that no personal projects will be tolerated by any employee on Zenimax's payroll. Show the world that no one can work for you unless their sole ambition is to be a Zenimax employee. Convince every young hotshot college grad that it's a bad idea to go work for you. Lose whatever momentum you would have gained by attracting top talent.
- Lagged2Death 12y ago
  Who would want to work for Zenimax after this? ZeniMax has the rights to an awfully big stable of awfully important gaming properties. I think a lot of people - even people who don't like anything about this nasty little scrap - will be willing to hold their noses.
thirsteh 12y ago
Zenimax is based in Maryland, and Oculus in California. How strange that they filed the case in a north Texas court!
- dayjah 12y ago
  I've noticed this trend also, I asked google and got this response from wikipedia: > An individual case often begins with a perfunctory infringement complaint,[31] or even a mere threat of suit, which is often enough to encourage settlement for the nuisance or "threat value" of the suit by purchasing a license to the patent. In the United States, suits are often brought in United States District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, known for favoring plaintiffs and for expertise in patent suits.[53] Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll
  - wtallis 12y ago
    Yeah, but this suit is in the North district of Texas, not the East district.
  - kudu 12y ago
    That doesn't really check out. Surely, if they were forum-shopping, they would have brought it in the Eastern District, which has a 57.5% success rate, instead of the Northern District, which has a 40.6% success rate. (The national average is 32.4%.)
- objclxt 12y ago
  id Software, the subsidiary in question, is based in Texas. Oculus also has an office there (although not their main one). Obviously ZeniMax are going to pick the venue that they think they have the best chance of winning at, but in this case there are actually some pretty strong connections.
  - thirsteh 12y ago
    Ah, that makes a little more sense then. I was thinking they were just going for the "better" legal system.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
newobj 12y ago
Who puts out a press release announcing a lawsuit?
- objclxt 12y ago
  Lots of companies - you've filed the lawsuit, so the press is going to pick it up anyway. You might as well issue a statement at the same time.
- TheMakeA 12y ago
  A company whose chairman and CEO is a lawyer.
  - newobj 12y ago
    And, as I've learned after a quick Wikipedia jag, is married to Wonder Woman and used to be CEO of FriendFinder! Which used to be the Penthouse Media Group!
- dueprocess 12y ago
  A company that wants to control the narrative.
HannibalLecter 12y ago
I'm getting kind of hungry.
superduper33 12y ago
Careface
jkaunisv1 12y ago
It seems to me that Facebook would have found out about that NDA during the acquiring process of Oculus, and are likely prepared to deal with it.
- partek 12y ago
  I sense a multi-billion dollar acquisition of zenimax coming if the case has merit
ChuckMcM 12y ago
I did not realize that Zenimax was in such dire straits. Although after losing its star coder I expect that made things harder for them. For what its worth, these sorts of lawsuits come out of the woodwork when ever a 'liquidity event' happens. From folks suing companies about to go public, to targets of large acquisitions. Always interesting to read what they have to say when they try the 'appeal to the public' angle.
- thrillgore 12y ago
  Zenimax spent about $200MM on The Elder Scrolls Online, and they're expecting to take a serious hit financially. Of course they launched another AAA game this week and I can't say with this news i'm particularly interested in supporting Zenimax financially in their lawsuit.
tptacek 12y ago
Starting on page 20: 57. On July 26, 2012, Luckey again asked for ZeniMax’s help with the Kickstarter video, specifically asking Carmack to provide a clip “talking about the Rift/VR in general/whatever else you think would be a great thing to have.” Luckey further acknowledged: “Your reputation has really helped the credibility of this project, and having that credibility in the video would make a big difference for alot [sic] of people.” Carmack declined Luckey’s request to appear in the Kickstarter video. 58. At about that same time, Carmack advised Luckey: “It is very important that you NOT use anything that could be construed as Zenimax property in the promotion of your product. Showing my R&D testbed with the Rage media would be bad, for instance.” 59. Luckey replied, “I will make sure we do not show the Rage demo in the Kickstarter, but is there any chance we can mention support/show a quick clip from Doom 3/BFG Edition?” ZeniMax turned down Luckey’s request, instructing that Luckey rely on publicly-available information for Kickstarter promotional material. 60. On August 1, 2012, Luckey launched the Oculus Kickstarter campaign. The funding target was set at $250,000. The Kickstarter page featured a five-minute video describing the modified Rift headset. 61. In blatant disregard of ZeniMax’s rights, Defendants used ZeniMax’s intellectual property in the Kickstarter video. The video features multiple clips showing “DOOM 3: BFG Edition,” displayed on the modified Rift headset. The video also used “DOOM 3: BFG Edition” to promote the modified Rift by displaying, without authorization, ZeniMax’s logo for “DOOM 3: BFG Edition” as the first Oculus-Rift ready game. Further, despite the lack of any commercial agreement with ZeniMax, Defendants promised that certain backers of the Kickstarter campaign would receive copies of ZeniMax’s game “DOOM 3: BFG Edition” with support for the modified Rift. Context: at this point, Luckey has executed an NDA with Zenimax, in writing, with a "proper use" clause. Carmack has demoed the Rift at E3 to thunderous response. Luckey subsequently, Zenimax alleges, shifted from planning to offer "$500 worth of optics as a hobbyist package" to "launching a commercial product". Zenimax has, it alleges, made overtures to Luckey for a joint venture, but Luckey has ignored them. Then, after being warned by Carmack not to do it, Luckey creates a Kickstarter that prominently features id games. Could be ugly.
- jsmthrowaway 12y ago
  I hope everybody who comments on this story reads the complaint. There's some really damning stuff in there and some of the more damning claims come with evidence, including Oculus demanding exclusive licensing of IP "shared by Carmack" during negotiations (paragraph 77). That stands in contrast to public statements from Oculus that ZeniMax contributed nothing. ZeniMax knows that Oculus holds the stronger public opinion, for two reasons: (1) people love Oculus, and (2) Minecraft fans are still stinging from ZeniMax's trademark claims against Mojang re: Scrolls. Very good play on ZeniMax's part, dropping a release and an extremely well-written complaint at once. They want to control the narrative.
afternooner 12y ago
I'm really interested to see how this plays out. Zenimax definitely has a case when you read the filing. So who knows, they may have some grounds.
anigbrowl 12y ago
I originally thought (based on the text of the agreement between Zenimax & Luckey, but absent the other details in the complaint) that Zenimax had a poor case and would see the agreement voided on technicalities. But these new details seem to show Luckey acted in rather bad faith from early on, which makes for a very different case. Now I'm wondering if Facebook bought a pig in a poke.
bloodmoney 12y ago
Lawyers lol
sillysaurus3 12y ago
From the discussion on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2655hh/zenimax_sues_oculus_vr_for_misappropriation_of/chntzyk http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2655hh/zenimax_sues_o... Throwaway because zenimax is sue-happy and I work at id Software, and I don't want to lose my job. A while back there was an artist here who made some artwork for Valve's Team Fotress 2 Hat contest in their spare time. This artist ended up winning and received a large amount of money from royalties. Zenimax got pissed off that this person was earning money from what they felt like was "Their property". The rumor was that they were about to sue them, but ended up backing off. I'm not sure why. This individual left the company shortly after. I don't blame them. We've been loosing top-notch talent left and right ever since the Zenimax purchase, but more so after RAGE didn't do too well. We're alright now, but I really believe that this is no longer the place that it was when I started years ago. The office culture sucks ass, and unless you're keen to sticking your nose up certain people's asses, or have been here since the days when we could actually ship games, then you're not going to get very far. I think Zenimax is mostly to blame for this. Fuck them. The moderators of /r/Games verified that the above comment is from a current Id employee. The reason I'm crossposting it here is because it's an interesting datapoint about the mindset of the people at Zenimax.
- deleted 12y ago
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  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    None of this changes the merits of the case at hand, and it's sad that people are focusing on zenimax rather than the claims in the situation. Lackey did sign agreements with ZeniMax, and as far as I can tell Oculus didn't refute that point. Are those agreements moot, in your eyes? What if it were the other way around, with a large company like Facebook or Google taking the IP of a smaller company? Several people have now questioned whether I think contracts should be freely broken or ignored, so just to be clear: no. An agreement is an agreement. I honor all my agreements, which is why I'm careful to read every single line of whatever I sign and think about every sentence. Trying to decipher the double meaning in most standard agreements is fraught with danger though, because if you misunderstand a single sentence then you're on the hook for the rest of your life. That's why I think we, as a community of developers, should be holding employers more accountable for their disingenuous behavior of trying to assert ownership of someone's personal projects simply for being on a payroll or just for participating in a company event. Quick example: recently a friend of mine wanted to give me a tour of their office and meet some of the folks working there, but in the lobby of their building they demanded I sign an NDA just to come in and say hello. I declined, because even though there's probably no risk to me in signing that NDA, there's no possible way it could benefit me, either. Why would a company expect a multi-year agreement just to walk in the door for a little while? As far as Zenimax vs Palmer, well, the only reason Zenimax has a case is because Palmer signed that NDA. I wouldn't be surprised if Palmer only signed it because he got careless and figured it was just a Non-Disclosure Agreement (i.e. "don't talk about this stuff with anyone you're not supposed to") rather than a transfer of ownership, as it turned out to be. The central theme throughout all of this is that the employer is trying to extract as much value as possible at the expense of the people they build their business on. So the question isn't whether Zenimax have a case; obviously they do. Personally, I find Zenimax's actions amusing. This lawsuit is such an obvious tactical blunder that it's hard not to find it a little funny. It's not everyday that you see someone tank their company's future prospects by pissing off their core audience and community while torpedoing any future chance they might've had to hire top talent. Now everybody knows it's a terrible idea to go work for Zenimax. Surely it's obvious how this throwaway comment from an Id employee might impinge upon their future prospects of hiring top talent. And the only reason the throwaway comment was posted was due to the greedy lawsuit. It's rather karmic to see this entity, who is trying to step in and take credit for a movement that they contributed virtually nothing to, get such swift reprisals. Indeed, it's of course within Zenimax's rights to sue in this case and try to recover perceived damages. They're free to exercise their right to sue. And top talent is free to exercise their good sense to work elsewhere. One wonders if Zenimax doesn't see it coming, or doesn't care. Maybe they're just so out of touch with gamedev culture that they honestly don't see how this might impact their future prospects to convince top people to relocate their families to work for them. It's a bit comedic.
kaonashi 12y ago
This lawsuit reminds me of John Fogerty getting sued for plagiarizing himself.
pyalot2 12y ago
Filed in the northern district of texas, of course, where every other IP troll goes to file suits. Really all you need to know about the merits.
danielweber 12y ago
Interesting: the URL no longer takes us to the announcement, and the link on their press page supposedly to their press release is now broken.

140 points by highCs 12y ago

Here is a copy of the complaint [1]. Originally posted here [2]. Interesting reading... [1] http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4490157/1-main.pdf http://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/assets/4490157/1-main.pdf [2] http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/21/5739086/oculus-vr-and-its-founder-sued-by-zenimax-and-id-software http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/21/5739086/oculus-vr-and-its-...

leorocky 12y ago
Weird, but that PDF URL blows up Chrome for me when I click if from there, but not when I click it from the Verge article. It's the same URL.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
cjslep 12y ago
It is a shame that such a delightful piece of technology is getting mired in human politics. The complaint, being from one viewpoint, definitely portrays a grey area during those two years of ZeniMax "nicely asking". I guess I am just a little upset at the prospect that this could delay or effect the quality of Oculus. I do not know the VR industry enough to know if this lawsuit would cause side effects in any competitors. Edit: Clarified "this lawsuit" and "side effects in any competitors".
- ekianjo 12y ago
  It's not about politics, it's about grabbing some money from Oculus now that Facebook backed them up. Where there is a lot of cash, there's usually a lawsuit not far away. And most of the time this is settled out of court for undisclosed amounts.
  - thenmar 12y ago
    Did you read the complaint, or at least the first few pages of it? I'm as big a fan of the Rift as anyone, but as another commenter said, it is "pretty damning" if you look at it objectively.
    - lawnchair_larry 12y ago
      Eh, not really, because it's the plaintiff's complaint. It's supposed to seem damning or the lawyer isn't doing their job. That's like reading an indictment and expecting it to be anywhere close to reality. You can't really start to judge until after the facts are out and everyone has had a chance to address allegations.
mbel 12y ago
I was expecting Carmack's name to appear in the press release. I cannot say I'm disappointed after reading the complaint. The whole piece reads as if ZeniMax felt that it has somehow acquired possession of Carmack's knowledge (or any other of its employees), which at least for me seems to be totally absurd.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- interpol_p 12y ago
  It's not that absurd. A lot of the VR demos used Zenimax games, and many of the videos and interviews were filmed right inside Zenimax offices. Code was written on Zenimax time and file transfers, emails for advice, and more were made over Zenimax email addresses. Carmack obviously re-wrote all code once leaving Zenimax, but there's a case to be made that Zenimax giving Carmack free reign to work on Oculus while at Zenimax significantly benefited Oculus. Oculus agreed at some point — offering Zenimax a 2% stake. Zenimax asked for more (amount not specified in the complaint). Oculus response was that the "figure was so far out of the ballpark, we believe there is little hope" — negotiations broke down there.

sillysaurus3 12y ago

What a shortsighted move. Who would want to work for Zenimax after this? Whatever Zenimax gets out of this lawsuit will be overshadowed by the goodwill they've lost. EDIT: Who would want to work someplace that will aggressively assert rights over your personal projects? Let's assume Carmack happened to work on VR within a Zenimax office. We're talking about someone who created Armadillo Aerospace. If Carmack felt like developing VR outside of Zenimax offices, he obviously could have. So it must be true that Zenimax didn't actually help VR in any substantial way. Carmack's VR development just happened to take place within a Zenimax building. And now they're going after him for it, while playing it off like VR wouldn't have existed without Zenimax's contributions. EDIT2: What convinced me was a thought experiment: imagine Zenimax without Carmack. Now think of all the ways that our imaginary entity could possibly contribute to the development of VR. At best, our entity provided a building for Carmack to pursue his personal interests in (a "mad scientist lab," as the Complaint calls it). Maybe some marketing, but who would deny that the hype would have rolled in regardless of whatever Zenimax did to help it along? Two seconds looking through a Rift is enough to transform anyone into an evangelist. The VR ball began rolling due to the efforts of Carmack, not Zenimax. So, let's say you're Zenimax. You have Carmack working for you, working on all kinds of cool projects; whatever interests him. Choose your adventure: - Stand to benefit by the halo effect of having a living legend on your payroll; a legend who gets the entire gamedev industry interested in projects happening at your company. Attract top talent by virtue of the buzz, and a creative's natural desire to be a part of cool projects. Your new top talent goes on to create many millions of dollars of value for your company. - Try to assert control over whatever Carmack makes. Make it abundantly clear that no personal projects will be tolerated by any employee on Zenimax's payroll. Show the world that no one can work for you unless their sole ambition is to be a Zenimax employee. Convince every young hotshot college grad that it's a bad idea to go work for you. Lose whatever momentum you would have gained by attracting top talent.

Lagged2Death 12y ago
Who would want to work for Zenimax after this? ZeniMax has the rights to an awfully big stable of awfully important gaming properties. I think a lot of people - even people who don't like anything about this nasty little scrap - will be willing to hold their noses.

thirsteh 12y ago

Zenimax is based in Maryland, and Oculus in California. How strange that they filed the case in a north Texas court!

dayjah 12y ago
I've noticed this trend also, I asked google and got this response from wikipedia: > An individual case often begins with a perfunctory infringement complaint,[31] or even a mere threat of suit, which is often enough to encourage settlement for the nuisance or "threat value" of the suit by purchasing a license to the patent. In the United States, suits are often brought in United States District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, known for favoring plaintiffs and for expertise in patent suits.[53] Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_troll
- wtallis 12y ago
  Yeah, but this suit is in the North district of Texas, not the East district.
- kudu 12y ago
  That doesn't really check out. Surely, if they were forum-shopping, they would have brought it in the Eastern District, which has a 57.5% success rate, instead of the Northern District, which has a 40.6% success rate. (The national average is 32.4%.)
objclxt 12y ago
id Software, the subsidiary in question, is based in Texas. Oculus also has an office there (although not their main one). Obviously ZeniMax are going to pick the venue that they think they have the best chance of winning at, but in this case there are actually some pretty strong connections.
- thirsteh 12y ago
  Ah, that makes a little more sense then. I was thinking they were just going for the "better" legal system.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

newobj 12y ago

Who puts out a press release announcing a lawsuit?

objclxt 12y ago
Lots of companies - you've filed the lawsuit, so the press is going to pick it up anyway. You might as well issue a statement at the same time.
TheMakeA 12y ago
A company whose chairman and CEO is a lawyer.
- newobj 12y ago
  And, as I've learned after a quick Wikipedia jag, is married to Wonder Woman and used to be CEO of FriendFinder! Which used to be the Penthouse Media Group!
dueprocess 12y ago
A company that wants to control the narrative.

HannibalLecter 12y ago

I'm getting kind of hungry.

superduper33 12y ago

Careface

jkaunisv1 12y ago

It seems to me that Facebook would have found out about that NDA during the acquiring process of Oculus, and are likely prepared to deal with it.

partek 12y ago
I sense a multi-billion dollar acquisition of zenimax coming if the case has merit

ChuckMcM 12y ago

I did not realize that Zenimax was in such dire straits. Although after losing its star coder I expect that made things harder for them. For what its worth, these sorts of lawsuits come out of the woodwork when ever a 'liquidity event' happens. From folks suing companies about to go public, to targets of large acquisitions. Always interesting to read what they have to say when they try the 'appeal to the public' angle.

thrillgore 12y ago
Zenimax spent about $200MM on The Elder Scrolls Online, and they're expecting to take a serious hit financially. Of course they launched another AAA game this week and I can't say with this news i'm particularly interested in supporting Zenimax financially in their lawsuit.

tptacek 12y ago

Starting on page 20: 57. On July 26, 2012, Luckey again asked for ZeniMax’s help with the Kickstarter video, specifically asking Carmack to provide a clip “talking about the Rift/VR in general/whatever else you think would be a great thing to have.” Luckey further acknowledged: “Your reputation has really helped the credibility of this project, and having that credibility in the video would make a big difference for alot [sic] of people.” Carmack declined Luckey’s request to appear in the Kickstarter video. 58. At about that same time, Carmack advised Luckey: “It is very important that you NOT use anything that could be construed as Zenimax property in the promotion of your product. Showing my R&D testbed with the Rage media would be bad, for instance.” 59. Luckey replied, “I will make sure we do not show the Rage demo in the Kickstarter, but is there any chance we can mention support/show a quick clip from Doom 3/BFG Edition?” ZeniMax turned down Luckey’s request, instructing that Luckey rely on publicly-available information for Kickstarter promotional material. 60. On August 1, 2012, Luckey launched the Oculus Kickstarter campaign. The funding target was set at $250,000. The Kickstarter page featured a five-minute video describing the modified Rift headset. 61. In blatant disregard of ZeniMax’s rights, Defendants used ZeniMax’s intellectual property in the Kickstarter video. The video features multiple clips showing “DOOM 3: BFG Edition,” displayed on the modified Rift headset. The video also used “DOOM 3: BFG Edition” to promote the modified Rift by displaying, without authorization, ZeniMax’s logo for “DOOM 3: BFG Edition” as the first Oculus-Rift ready game. Further, despite the lack of any commercial agreement with ZeniMax, Defendants promised that certain backers of the Kickstarter campaign would receive copies of ZeniMax’s game “DOOM 3: BFG Edition” with support for the modified Rift. Context: at this point, Luckey has executed an NDA with Zenimax, in writing, with a "proper use" clause. Carmack has demoed the Rift at E3 to thunderous response. Luckey subsequently, Zenimax alleges, shifted from planning to offer "$500 worth of optics as a hobbyist package" to "launching a commercial product". Zenimax has, it alleges, made overtures to Luckey for a joint venture, but Luckey has ignored them. Then, after being warned by Carmack not to do it, Luckey creates a Kickstarter that prominently features id games. Could be ugly.

jsmthrowaway 12y ago
I hope everybody who comments on this story reads the complaint. There's some really damning stuff in there and some of the more damning claims come with evidence, including Oculus demanding exclusive licensing of IP "shared by Carmack" during negotiations (paragraph 77). That stands in contrast to public statements from Oculus that ZeniMax contributed nothing. ZeniMax knows that Oculus holds the stronger public opinion, for two reasons: (1) people love Oculus, and (2) Minecraft fans are still stinging from ZeniMax's trademark claims against Mojang re: Scrolls. Very good play on ZeniMax's part, dropping a release and an extremely well-written complaint at once. They want to control the narrative.

afternooner 12y ago

I'm really interested to see how this plays out. Zenimax definitely has a case when you read the filing. So who knows, they may have some grounds.

anigbrowl 12y ago

I originally thought (based on the text of the agreement between Zenimax & Luckey, but absent the other details in the complaint) that Zenimax had a poor case and would see the agreement voided on technicalities. But these new details seem to show Luckey acted in rather bad faith from early on, which makes for a very different case. Now I'm wondering if Facebook bought a pig in a poke.

bloodmoney 12y ago

Lawyers lol

sillysaurus3 12y ago

From the discussion on Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2655hh/zenimax_sues_oculus_vr_for_misappropriation_of/chntzyk http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/2655hh/zenimax_sues_o... Throwaway because zenimax is sue-happy and I work at id Software, and I don't want to lose my job. A while back there was an artist here who made some artwork for Valve's Team Fotress 2 Hat contest in their spare time. This artist ended up winning and received a large amount of money from royalties. Zenimax got pissed off that this person was earning money from what they felt like was "Their property". The rumor was that they were about to sue them, but ended up backing off. I'm not sure why. This individual left the company shortly after. I don't blame them. We've been loosing top-notch talent left and right ever since the Zenimax purchase, but more so after RAGE didn't do too well. We're alright now, but I really believe that this is no longer the place that it was when I started years ago. The office culture sucks ass, and unless you're keen to sticking your nose up certain people's asses, or have been here since the days when we could actually ship games, then you're not going to get very far. I think Zenimax is mostly to blame for this. Fuck them. The moderators of /r/Games verified that the above comment is from a current Id employee. The reason I'm crossposting it here is because it's an interesting datapoint about the mindset of the people at Zenimax.

deleted 12y ago
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- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  None of this changes the merits of the case at hand, and it's sad that people are focusing on zenimax rather than the claims in the situation. Lackey did sign agreements with ZeniMax, and as far as I can tell Oculus didn't refute that point. Are those agreements moot, in your eyes? What if it were the other way around, with a large company like Facebook or Google taking the IP of a smaller company? Several people have now questioned whether I think contracts should be freely broken or ignored, so just to be clear: no. An agreement is an agreement. I honor all my agreements, which is why I'm careful to read every single line of whatever I sign and think about every sentence. Trying to decipher the double meaning in most standard agreements is fraught with danger though, because if you misunderstand a single sentence then you're on the hook for the rest of your life. That's why I think we, as a community of developers, should be holding employers more accountable for their disingenuous behavior of trying to assert ownership of someone's personal projects simply for being on a payroll or just for participating in a company event. Quick example: recently a friend of mine wanted to give me a tour of their office and meet some of the folks working there, but in the lobby of their building they demanded I sign an NDA just to come in and say hello. I declined, because even though there's probably no risk to me in signing that NDA, there's no possible way it could benefit me, either. Why would a company expect a multi-year agreement just to walk in the door for a little while? As far as Zenimax vs Palmer, well, the only reason Zenimax has a case is because Palmer signed that NDA. I wouldn't be surprised if Palmer only signed it because he got careless and figured it was just a Non-Disclosure Agreement (i.e. "don't talk about this stuff with anyone you're not supposed to") rather than a transfer of ownership, as it turned out to be. The central theme throughout all of this is that the employer is trying to extract as much value as possible at the expense of the people they build their business on. So the question isn't whether Zenimax have a case; obviously they do. Personally, I find Zenimax's actions amusing. This lawsuit is such an obvious tactical blunder that it's hard not to find it a little funny. It's not everyday that you see someone tank their company's future prospects by pissing off their core audience and community while torpedoing any future chance they might've had to hire top talent. Now everybody knows it's a terrible idea to go work for Zenimax. Surely it's obvious how this throwaway comment from an Id employee might impinge upon their future prospects of hiring top talent. And the only reason the throwaway comment was posted was due to the greedy lawsuit. It's rather karmic to see this entity, who is trying to step in and take credit for a movement that they contributed virtually nothing to, get such swift reprisals. Indeed, it's of course within Zenimax's rights to sue in this case and try to recover perceived damages. They're free to exercise their right to sue. And top talent is free to exercise their good sense to work elsewhere. One wonders if Zenimax doesn't see it coming, or doesn't care. Maybe they're just so out of touch with gamedev culture that they honestly don't see how this might impact their future prospects to convince top people to relocate their families to work for them. It's a bit comedic.

kaonashi 12y ago

This lawsuit reminds me of John Fogerty getting sued for plagiarizing himself.

pyalot2 12y ago

Filed in the northern district of texas, of course, where every other IP troll goes to file suits. Really all you need to know about the merits.

danielweber 12y ago

Interesting: the URL no longer takes us to the announcement, and the link on their press page supposedly to their press release is now broken.