7 ms·

I just don't get how OSX is so popular with a developers. It is essentially a "user's" OS. Not a developer one. Its geared towards, and hides a lot from, the co

by harel 12y ago

I just don't get how OSX is so popular with a developers. It is essentially a "user's" OS. Not a developer one. Its geared towards, and hides a lot from, the common user. Setting up OSX with all the dev stack is usually a painful experience requiring a few workarounds (I see this with colleagues of mine who wanted a Mac over a Thinkpad with Linux). The keyboard as well is anythign but developer friendly. Where are those damn Page Up/Down keys? Yes the hardware itself looks nice, albeit a bit outdated to my liking, and you pay a silly premium for it. It breaks more often than it should, and those shiny screens just don't fit code (to my matte liking eyes anyway). But hey, its trendy and hip so why not.

mnem 12y ago
Hang on - it's been trendy for a decade now? That's pretty good marketing. Maybe, just maybe, different developers enjoy coding in different ways.
- harel 12y ago
  I never said the hardware was bad, not detracted from any developer's preference to use a mac. I just expressed my opinion. Yes, its true that the apple hardware is very nice, but at the same time, it was much nicer 10 years ago. Today its just stuff I'd expect from any laptop. There is on groundbreaking changes any more. And good marketing - you bet! The best marketing there is. Its herd mentality taken to the extreme. Have you seen an apple store on launch day?
  - mnem 12y ago
    Then I apologise for misreading your comment as a judgement on the valid uses of a Mac rather than it being your personal opinion.
CmonDev 12y ago
"I just don't get how OSX is so popular with a developers" It is not until there is a reliable statistics report.
- harel 12y ago
  I just see it often at the hands of devs. At my work we got everyone a Thinkpad running Ubuntu, but some wanted Macs and they got them. At the end of the day, this is a theological discussion influenced mostly by emotion. Pretty much a zero sum game - these are all tools best used at the hands of those who use them.
- jcastro 12y ago
  That's easy. Go to any Linux or tech/developer conference. Most attendees will have Macs running OSX.
  - _random_ 12y ago
    That's the smallest group of developers who are using a mainstream OS.
  - kayoone 12y ago
    Go to a .NET/Java or game developer conference. Most attendees will have PCs running Windows.
GrinningFool 12y ago
I think it's pretty specifically popular with developers in the start-up space. I suspect the majority of developers (outside of this few percent in the startup space) continue to use Linux and/or Windows. They just don't go around writing blog posts that start out by presenting opinions about usability of other OS's as fact.
danieldk 12y ago
I just don't get how OSX is so popular with a developers. It is essentially a "user's" OS. I have been a Linux user from 1994 to 2007 (mostly Slackware, some Debian and CentOS later), Mac from 2007. I switched to OS X, because: (1) I don't want to mess with hardware and drivers anymore; (2) I don't want to update my whole operating system to update applications; (3) in my work environment people do use Microsoft Office et al.,; (4) the hardware is nice; and (5) I have nothing against Windows, but it is not a UNIX, so not for me. If some of the advantages go away, I'd be happy to switch back to Linux.
- sonofsam 12y ago
  | (2) I don't want to update my whole operating system to update applications; This is huge. IMO, this is the purpose of an operating system. I want to install applications, I do not want to waste time installing new versions of my operating system. The main focus of Linux distributions should be to make as many applications as possible available to the user and make them easily available. That being said, Docker has changed this a bit for me, but most Linux distributions still fall flat on their faces when it comes to installing non-packaged applications. Sometimes I find myself having to download applications from websites, manually configure them or even compile software myself. Basically, the file system hierarchy should had been versioned from the start: / programs vim 7.1 7.2 7.3 Instead, you have a single 'vim' binary that gets overwritten if you try to install another version of vim (unless someone renamed the binary for you). The FHS is a disaster that every distribution tries to implement differently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard
  - krakensden 12y ago
    Gobolinux implements exactly this. It's never really taken off.
- harel 12y ago
  I don't understand what you mean by "updating the operating system to update applications". In Ubuntu, for example, my apps are updates as soon as new versions are out. If I want a major version upgrade, in some cases, I can also add particular repos that track those apps... I have not compiled anything in Linux for so long I don't even remember what/when was the last time.
smrtinsert 12y ago
Most devs I've seen on macs use vim, which not to get into a flamewar, seems obsessed with turning into emacs in about 10 years or so. It seems to be completely bandwagon to me.
VintageCool 12y ago
Macbook laptops were insanely popular 6-8 years ago. They had the best hardware, well integrated software, and access to the bash shell and all the favorite unix utilities. OSX had support for Internet Explorer and Linux didn't really. All of the Ruby on Rails web developers switched to Macbooks at that time. The author sees all of these people using OS X and wonders why they would pick Mac now over Linux now, but that's the wrong question. The reason that everyone is using Macbooks is because everyone picked Apple six years ago. Notice that this thread is full of people who switched to OS X laptops in 2007, but they no longer see the competitive advantage and they're switching back to Linux. http://paulgraham.com/mac.html http://paulgraham.com/mac.html http://paulgraham.com/microsoft.html http://paulgraham.com/microsoft.html
dredmorbius 12y ago
Weight has a lot to do with it. The first Macbooks, and the the Macbook Air, were far, far lighter than equivalently provisioned x86 systems. The disparity's gotten better, but you still have HP and Dell putting out boat anchors compared with Apple. Lenovo's between the two. My T520i isn't flyweight, but it does OK (the power supply is a brick though). I've eyed the Carbon but have passed on it to date.
- kelseyfrancis 12y ago
  The Dell XPS 15 [1] weighs around 4.5 pounds, has a higher-resolution display than a Retina MacBook Pro, a comparable i7 quad-core, 16 gb ram, etc. It also has excellent Linux support (source: I have one that I installed Fedora 20 on and everything worked without any tinkering). There don't seem to be any other options comparable to a MacBook Pro for hardware. In particular, very, very few laptops that aren't enormous and heavy have a quad-core processor. [1] http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-15-9530/pd http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-15-9530/pd
  - kayoone 12y ago
    I heard many people complain about coil whine in these models. Also does this support GPU switching under Linux and does sleep/hibernate etc work without issues ?
    - kelseyfrancis 12y ago
      I've haven't experienced the whine myself, but I've seen those complaints too. GPU switching is the one thing I haven't really tried yet. I've stuck with the Intel chip. I've read that people have had success with Bumblebee. In fairness, I've also had a MacBook Pro with Fedora 19 on it, and GPU switching didn't work there either. Suspend/resume work without issue, but I haven't installed the proprietary NVIDIA drivers yet, and those have a tendency to mess up resume (at least it did on my MBP w/ Fedora 19). I _imagine_ NVIDIA drivers + suspend/resume works just fine with Ubuntu. Any "non-free" drivers in Fedora are pretty iffy in my experience. Usually after installing the NVIDIA drivers from RPM Fusion GDM won't even start, or you have to edit the GRUB menu item to blacklist nouveau, or any number of things the package should theoretically take care of for you. I've not had that problem with Ubuntu (just other problems, like a UEFI install on say a MBP, something Fedora does flawlessly). These are the kinds of reasons people just use Windows or OS X I guess.
pjmlp 12y ago
> I just don't get how OSX is so popular with a developers. OS X and iOS users also need software that someone has to write.
keypusher 12y ago
Because I have a data center full of nodes for when I need horsepower and a big fancy desktop with multiple monitors and a desk and a chair and a keyboard for when I need do serious development. What I want out of a laptop is a great form factor, solid battery life, a good keyboard, a large trackpad, a web browser and a real terminal. I own a 13-inch MacBook Air, it cost $1000 brand new, so no I didn't pay any premium for what I got. If you disagree please link equivalent specced hardware with a fully aluminum unibody case, high quality backlit keyboard, large trackpad with multitouch that has equivalent weight, screen size, and battery life. It does not break more often than it should, in fact it has never broken at all. The screen is not overly shiny and it fits my code just fine. But hey, you're already convinced otherwise so why bother.
- kayoone 12y ago
  unless you need a halfway decent GPU for you work, then you are bound to the top of the line $2600 rMBP. Thats the main problem with apple, very limited choices.
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    This is one of the reasons I still take Windows over Mac OS X. Those Intel GPUs are a no-go.
FeloniousHam 12y ago
I was all in for Ubuntu on my home machines (Windows at work, of course), but OSX was a revelation. For core development stuff, Ubuntu is great-- I'm still a fan of Unity, apt-get, build-essential-- but as soon as I want/need to dabble in human-level tooling (basically anything with graphics), Linux falls down. The apps just aren't there, and if they are, they're not well maintained. Even the most actively developed Free apps just aren't as aesthetically pleasing in either the UI or in performance. OSX makes me happy. The apps are considered and cared for by their makers, largely I believe, because they get paid for their time and ingenuity. Libre works great for APIs, not so much for Ape-y eyes :).

by harel 12y ago

mnem 12y ago

Hang on - it's been trendy for a decade now? That's pretty good marketing. Maybe, just maybe, different developers enjoy coding in different ways.

harel 12y ago
I never said the hardware was bad, not detracted from any developer's preference to use a mac. I just expressed my opinion. Yes, its true that the apple hardware is very nice, but at the same time, it was much nicer 10 years ago. Today its just stuff I'd expect from any laptop. There is on groundbreaking changes any more. And good marketing - you bet! The best marketing there is. Its herd mentality taken to the extreme. Have you seen an apple store on launch day?
- mnem 12y ago
  Then I apologise for misreading your comment as a judgement on the valid uses of a Mac rather than it being your personal opinion.

CmonDev 12y ago

"I just don't get how OSX is so popular with a developers" It is not until there is a reliable statistics report.

harel 12y ago
I just see it often at the hands of devs. At my work we got everyone a Thinkpad running Ubuntu, but some wanted Macs and they got them. At the end of the day, this is a theological discussion influenced mostly by emotion. Pretty much a zero sum game - these are all tools best used at the hands of those who use them.
jcastro 12y ago
That's easy. Go to any Linux or tech/developer conference. Most attendees will have Macs running OSX.
- _random_ 12y ago
  That's the smallest group of developers who are using a mainstream OS.
- kayoone 12y ago
  Go to a .NET/Java or game developer conference. Most attendees will have PCs running Windows.

GrinningFool 12y ago

I think it's pretty specifically popular with developers in the start-up space. I suspect the majority of developers (outside of this few percent in the startup space) continue to use Linux and/or Windows. They just don't go around writing blog posts that start out by presenting opinions about usability of other OS's as fact.

danieldk 12y ago

I just don't get how OSX is so popular with a developers. It is essentially a "user's" OS. I have been a Linux user from 1994 to 2007 (mostly Slackware, some Debian and CentOS later), Mac from 2007. I switched to OS X, because: (1) I don't want to mess with hardware and drivers anymore; (2) I don't want to update my whole operating system to update applications; (3) in my work environment people do use Microsoft Office et al.,; (4) the hardware is nice; and (5) I have nothing against Windows, but it is not a UNIX, so not for me. If some of the advantages go away, I'd be happy to switch back to Linux.

sonofsam 12y ago
| (2) I don't want to update my whole operating system to update applications; This is huge. IMO, this is the purpose of an operating system. I want to install applications, I do not want to waste time installing new versions of my operating system. The main focus of Linux distributions should be to make as many applications as possible available to the user and make them easily available. That being said, Docker has changed this a bit for me, but most Linux distributions still fall flat on their faces when it comes to installing non-packaged applications. Sometimes I find myself having to download applications from websites, manually configure them or even compile software myself. Basically, the file system hierarchy should had been versioned from the start: / programs vim 7.1 7.2 7.3 Instead, you have a single 'vim' binary that gets overwritten if you try to install another version of vim (unless someone renamed the binary for you). The FHS is a disaster that every distribution tries to implement differently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard
- krakensden 12y ago
  Gobolinux implements exactly this. It's never really taken off.
harel 12y ago
I don't understand what you mean by "updating the operating system to update applications". In Ubuntu, for example, my apps are updates as soon as new versions are out. If I want a major version upgrade, in some cases, I can also add particular repos that track those apps... I have not compiled anything in Linux for so long I don't even remember what/when was the last time.

smrtinsert 12y ago

Most devs I've seen on macs use vim, which not to get into a flamewar, seems obsessed with turning into emacs in about 10 years or so. It seems to be completely bandwagon to me.

VintageCool 12y ago

Macbook laptops were insanely popular 6-8 years ago. They had the best hardware, well integrated software, and access to the bash shell and all the favorite unix utilities. OSX had support for Internet Explorer and Linux didn't really. All of the Ruby on Rails web developers switched to Macbooks at that time. The author sees all of these people using OS X and wonders why they would pick Mac now over Linux now, but that's the wrong question. The reason that everyone is using Macbooks is because everyone picked Apple six years ago. Notice that this thread is full of people who switched to OS X laptops in 2007, but they no longer see the competitive advantage and they're switching back to Linux. http://paulgraham.com/mac.html http://paulgraham.com/mac.html http://paulgraham.com/microsoft.html http://paulgraham.com/microsoft.html

dredmorbius 12y ago

Weight has a lot to do with it. The first Macbooks, and the the Macbook Air, were far, far lighter than equivalently provisioned x86 systems. The disparity's gotten better, but you still have HP and Dell putting out boat anchors compared with Apple. Lenovo's between the two. My T520i isn't flyweight, but it does OK (the power supply is a brick though). I've eyed the Carbon but have passed on it to date.

kelseyfrancis 12y ago
The Dell XPS 15 [1] weighs around 4.5 pounds, has a higher-resolution display than a Retina MacBook Pro, a comparable i7 quad-core, 16 gb ram, etc. It also has excellent Linux support (source: I have one that I installed Fedora 20 on and everything worked without any tinkering). There don't seem to be any other options comparable to a MacBook Pro for hardware. In particular, very, very few laptops that aren't enormous and heavy have a quad-core processor. [1] http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-15-9530/pd http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-15-9530/pd
- kayoone 12y ago
  I heard many people complain about coil whine in these models. Also does this support GPU switching under Linux and does sleep/hibernate etc work without issues ?
  - kelseyfrancis 12y ago
    I've haven't experienced the whine myself, but I've seen those complaints too. GPU switching is the one thing I haven't really tried yet. I've stuck with the Intel chip. I've read that people have had success with Bumblebee. In fairness, I've also had a MacBook Pro with Fedora 19 on it, and GPU switching didn't work there either. Suspend/resume work without issue, but I haven't installed the proprietary NVIDIA drivers yet, and those have a tendency to mess up resume (at least it did on my MBP w/ Fedora 19). I _imagine_ NVIDIA drivers + suspend/resume works just fine with Ubuntu. Any "non-free" drivers in Fedora are pretty iffy in my experience. Usually after installing the NVIDIA drivers from RPM Fusion GDM won't even start, or you have to edit the GRUB menu item to blacklist nouveau, or any number of things the package should theoretically take care of for you. I've not had that problem with Ubuntu (just other problems, like a UEFI install on say a MBP, something Fedora does flawlessly). These are the kinds of reasons people just use Windows or OS X I guess.

pjmlp 12y ago

> I just don't get how OSX is so popular with a developers. OS X and iOS users also need software that someone has to write.

keypusher 12y ago

Because I have a data center full of nodes for when I need horsepower and a big fancy desktop with multiple monitors and a desk and a chair and a keyboard for when I need do serious development. What I want out of a laptop is a great form factor, solid battery life, a good keyboard, a large trackpad, a web browser and a real terminal. I own a 13-inch MacBook Air, it cost $1000 brand new, so no I didn't pay any premium for what I got. If you disagree please link equivalent specced hardware with a fully aluminum unibody case, high quality backlit keyboard, large trackpad with multitouch that has equivalent weight, screen size, and battery life. It does not break more often than it should, in fact it has never broken at all. The screen is not overly shiny and it fits my code just fine. But hey, you're already convinced otherwise so why bother.

kayoone 12y ago
unless you need a halfway decent GPU for you work, then you are bound to the top of the line $2600 rMBP. Thats the main problem with apple, very limited choices.
- pjmlp 12y ago
  This is one of the reasons I still take Windows over Mac OS X. Those Intel GPUs are a no-go.

FeloniousHam 12y ago

I was all in for Ubuntu on my home machines (Windows at work, of course), but OSX was a revelation. For core development stuff, Ubuntu is great-- I'm still a fan of Unity, apt-get, build-essential-- but as soon as I want/need to dabble in human-level tooling (basically anything with graphics), Linux falls down. The apps just aren't there, and if they are, they're not well maintained. Even the most actively developed Free apps just aren't as aesthetically pleasing in either the UI or in performance. OSX makes me happy. The apps are considered and cared for by their makers, largely I believe, because they get paid for their time and ingenuity. Libre works great for APIs, not so much for Ape-y eyes :).