7 ms·

Lenovo, the Treasure Hunter of Tech

59 points by vinhnx 12y ago

cft 12y ago
I can feel the end of American economic might. Facebook/Instagram/Whatsapp will not cut it. Pretty sad.
- rgbrenner 12y ago
  Facebook is a 10 year old company. Lenovo is a 30 year old company. Might want to give Facebook a little more time before making comparisons.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Lenovo...king of the low margin low growth PC market. The end is nigh for the Americans? When they start making real yuan, let's talk. Btw, why is business week blocked by the GFW?
  - jordanb 12y ago
    It seems to me that Lenovo's modus operandi is to buy high quality brands with a great deal of goodwill from loyal customers, and then drive down costs by producing steadily more inferior products in order to soak up the difference as profit. It's essentially a slash-and-burn strategy though. Eventually customers realize that the brand doesn't mean what it used to mean and move on. I used to be happy to pay a premium for Thinkpads because they were unparalleled in for quality and ergonomics. I've decided that my T410 will be the last Thinkpad I will own. I don't know what my next laptop will be, but I know for sure it will not be a Thinkpad.
    - gareim 12y ago
      What other examples are there besides the Thinkpad line? I would disagree that Motorola can be considered a high quality brand when it comes to smartphones. Yes, their recent X and G were really good phones for the price, but many Americans still see Android and Galaxy as synonymous, so I wouldn't say Moto is high quality. I'm coming from a different POV from you when it comes to laptops. I'm 20 years old and started off with cheap laptops. But I've always lusted after Thinkpads and now a Yoga Pro 2 after having tried one so for me, the Lenovo brand looks really appealing. I haven't found any other hardware that appealed as much besides a Macbook.
      - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        Yoga pro 2 is great if you don't need a good trackpad. If you don't want to carry around a mouse, there is no other choice but the fruit.
        mercurial 12y ago
        Typing this from a Thinkpad with a trackpoint, I couldn't disagree more :) (though I'd as soon chop off my fingers as use the Dell version of the trackpoint).
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        My X1's trackpad is horrible, but thankfully it comes with the eraser mouse, which is accurate even if it hurts my finger tip. The Yoga has no such option like the X1 does, which is why I would avoid it. Why can't just one PC vendor who can make a decent trackpad...
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        To the downvoters, the Yoga 2 Pro really doesn't have a trackpoint as parent implied, just the trackpad + touch.
        thinkmassive 12y ago
        There is a ThinkPad Yoga that does have a trackpoint though. It's different from the other Yoga models, which are in the IdeaPad line. Seems like Lenovo is determined to test the limits of just how many models their customers will tolerate. They're creating a new model for practically every feature instead of creating new options for existing models that are tried and true. I'd prefer they quit diluting the classic ThinkPad lines with experimental models, and up the quality on IdeaPad because they already have a value line called 3000 or something. When I can find a trackpoint with a high res (2k+) screen I'll start shopping again.
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    - ibrahima 12y ago
      I have to question whether this is actually true though. Yes, they have deviated somewhat from the design of older Thinkpads, but I think it's debatable whether they're objectively worse, for the most part. I will say that things like the capacitive F key row on the X1 Carbon are pretty clearly a bad idea, but other minor changes to keyboard layout and even the clickpad thing I would argue could be considered better if you take someone who has never used either version and train them to use both and ask which they prefer. I personally have a T440s and it's a great machine, and I exclusively use the trackpoint. Because the clickpad actually depresses like normal buttons, it's still pretty natural to use it like a more standard trackpoint with buttons. I mean, you can't say whether if IBM still owned Thinkpad they would not be making similar design decisions in order to appeal to mass market tastes. I feel like there's a sense in the Thinkpad community that the new Thinkpads are getting steadily worse but I would argue that that's more due to ingrained preferences rather than objective facts. It's just that because Lenovo is a Chinese company it's easy to blame the perceived downfall of Thinkpad as Lenovo driving costs down.
      - nvarsj 12y ago
        It is largely anecdotal, but you do see a lot of the same issues come up. I bought an x220, and a year later I've sworn off Thinkpads. The palmrest has cracked - a common problem for the x220, documented on forums - and Lenovo refuses to fix it. Similarly the keyboard has turned to complete mush - whereas my old X60 keyboard still feels good as new. The entire chassis has warped over time as well, which means it doesn't sit completely flat on a surface - another documented issue on thinkpad forums. And my first battery, a 9 cell Sanyo, died after about 9 months of careful use - again a well known issue on the forums. So this is why a lot of people perceive quality has tanked at Lenovo. IBM thinkpads did have their own problems (like bad screens), but in general were built like tanks and lasted years.
    - mercurial 12y ago
      > I've decided that my T410 will be the last Thinkpad I will own. I own a T 430. As I have no experience with older models of Thinkpad but am entirely satisfied with this laptop, I'm curious to know what exactly you think is wrong with the current Lenovo offerings.
    - adamors 12y ago
      Even if the T430 and T230 generation changed the keyboard, the Thinkpad line only tuned sour recently IMO, with the T440 and T240. They removed the trackpoint buttons, changed the layout and made upgrading a real pain: you now have to take the machine apart to upgrade the RAM/HDD.
    - nly 12y ago
      > I don't know what my next laptop will be, but I know for sure it will not be a Thinkpad. I bought a ThinkPad earlier this year and returned it soon after. While the keyboard was pretty damn good, the rest of the laptop felt poorly designed and fairly janky, with resources spend on image rather than good design. The buying experience shipping from China sucked as well. I ended up going for a Dell Latitude, which feels solid all round, still has an acceptable traditional keyboard, traditional mouse buttons, a surprisingly responsive nipple, and has a bunch of clearly thought out attributes... like all the ports being on or toward the back.
    - eitally 12y ago
      True story. :) We, a company of nearly 50,000, just switched from Lenovo to Dell as our primary laptop/pc supplier. A) the new models are far inferior to the old ones, B) their pricing hasn't dropped to reflect that, and C) their lead time, even for "top seller" models, is very inconsistent.
    - Al-Khwarizmi 12y ago
      As an owner of 4 ThinkPads, I agree their quality has decreased significantly. But I'm still locked into them because no one else offers me a TrackPoint. I very strongly prefer a TrackPoint to any trackpad, so while other manufacturers don't offer them, I don't even look at their laptops... (I'm aware that Dell does have a couple of TrackPoint models and I will look into them when I have to make my next laptop purchase).
      - ShinyCyril 12y ago
        HP EliteBooks used to have trackpoints - not sure if they still do though.
- adventured 12y ago
  I think you need to learn a lot more about the US economy, if you think WhatsApp is representative of the world's largest and most productive manufacturing economy. The US is the largest in: software, internet, communications, media, manufacturing, pharma / biotech, defense contracting, aerospace, energy, finance, agriculture And somehow you think Instagram is a big deal? Laughable. Any idea how many $10 billion companies there are in the US?
austinz 12y ago
Fascinating story. Lenovo's rise to prominence reminds me of Haier, especially the presence of a charismatic, ambitious leadership figure not content to settle for just the domestic market. But why are there raccoons all over the article?
- adventured 12y ago
  Raccoons are often considered to be intelligent trash scavengers.
RevRal 12y ago
Next up: How Lenovo Escapes Heat Death
pointernil 12y ago
All well and nice but: What is the current Thinkpad worth its once trustworthy brand? The way to drive and keep the profits seams to be to lure customers who trusted a brand for years into buying quite frankly ridiculously manufactured surrogate products with the brand-label in the right place... well maybe turned 180 for the new coolness factor ;)
sandGorgon 12y ago
Thinkpads are truly awesome - but the problem is that lenovo is buying into the macbook hype machine without putting thought around it's design process. for example, I recently bought a T430S as opposed to one of the newer T440 ranges. the touchpad is an abomination - and plus they soldered one of the RAMs to the motherboard. Seriously ? One of the biggest differentiators that thinkpads have is their upgradability. I can easily upgrade the CPU of a T430 series [1] and bump up the ram to 16 gb. the newer thinkpads lose both those abilities. The Thinkpad designers have not been able to make up their minds on what they want to build - which is why we see lines like T430/T430s/T430u/T430e and T440/T440s/T440p. [1] http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo/684625-t430-upgrade.html http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo/684625-t430-upgrade.h...
- existencebox 12y ago
  I have heard through coworker word of mouth, through discussions with lenovo engineers, that the touchpad changes have not been positively received even by the internal engineers. Pretty much everyone I've talked to (including my unfortunate fiancee who had the misfortune of buying one of these) thinks that touchpad is the worst thing since various laptop producers started going towards chicklets. I really wonder how these companies push forward despite (from my point of view) SIGNIFICANT customer pushback. Am I really stuck this far in an engineering bubble, or are things really so disconnected?
  - kiallmacinnes 12y ago
    I actually like the touchpad on my T440s, it took some getting used to compared to my old T430s though...
  - reirob 12y ago
    It is really that bad. I sent a new machine back - it was worthless for me [1]. For me it is not so much the touchpad changes (I do not use the touchpad) as the lack of physical trackpoint buttons. But even when I tried the new touchpad I absolutely hated the touchpad-is-a-button functionality. It does NOT feel good, sounds horible and is far from being ergonomic. For me personally it would be best to be able to buy Thinkpads just with trackpoint + buttons, but without touchpad. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729110
ZanyProgrammer 12y ago
I used to own a ThinkPad Edge-I bought it when I was much poorer than I am now, and needed a decent laptop. It was nice to have a relatively cheap computer with the TP branding, but over time I came to realize that it was nothing more than a generic cheap 14 inch laptop with the TP branding. When you consider what TPs used to be, and what people think of when they think of TPs...well, either the Edge wasn't a true ThinkPad, or Lenovo is seriously diluting the brand. See also the ThinkPad tablet they came out with.
- dublinben 12y ago
  Your first suspicion was correct. The Edge line aren't true Thinkpads at all. Even the most recent mainline Thinkpads are a significant departure from the values of Thinkpads in the past.
stickhandle 12y ago
Typing on an ideapad Y510p - its an excellent machine. I know that phones and tablets have the seat at the head table right now, but I can't imagine not having a laptop sitting on the kitchen table. Others seem to be dropping that ball ... or at least racing to the bottom. Lenovo laptops always seem a smart choice.
balladeer 12y ago
I use their P780. I bought it for the battery and I was right the battery is beyond excellent and I am saying this based on 2 day's use with 3G ON. But the rest of the things on that phone are either bad or just mediocre. Not to mention the bloat and poor software leave a lot to be desired and a near certainly that there's nothing post 4.2. On top of that they use MediaTek that apparently stops custom ROMs from coming into picture.
Aloha 12y ago
I've had 4 ThinkPads - T21, T42, R60, and now a T510 which I bought new in 2010. My plan is to buy a MacBook next time around, because when you look at price for performance, the MBP Retina blasts pretty much everything out of the water - even the T530 - Apples pricing over the last 4 years has come down, and Lenovo has stayed the same.

59 points by vinhnx 12y ago

cft 12y ago

I can feel the end of American economic might. Facebook/Instagram/Whatsapp will not cut it. Pretty sad.

rgbrenner 12y ago
Facebook is a 10 year old company. Lenovo is a 30 year old company. Might want to give Facebook a little more time before making comparisons.
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
Lenovo...king of the low margin low growth PC market. The end is nigh for the Americans? When they start making real yuan, let's talk. Btw, why is business week blocked by the GFW?
- jordanb 12y ago
  It seems to me that Lenovo's modus operandi is to buy high quality brands with a great deal of goodwill from loyal customers, and then drive down costs by producing steadily more inferior products in order to soak up the difference as profit. It's essentially a slash-and-burn strategy though. Eventually customers realize that the brand doesn't mean what it used to mean and move on. I used to be happy to pay a premium for Thinkpads because they were unparalleled in for quality and ergonomics. I've decided that my T410 will be the last Thinkpad I will own. I don't know what my next laptop will be, but I know for sure it will not be a Thinkpad.
  - gareim 12y ago
    What other examples are there besides the Thinkpad line? I would disagree that Motorola can be considered a high quality brand when it comes to smartphones. Yes, their recent X and G were really good phones for the price, but many Americans still see Android and Galaxy as synonymous, so I wouldn't say Moto is high quality. I'm coming from a different POV from you when it comes to laptops. I'm 20 years old and started off with cheap laptops. But I've always lusted after Thinkpads and now a Yoga Pro 2 after having tried one so for me, the Lenovo brand looks really appealing. I haven't found any other hardware that appealed as much besides a Macbook.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      Yoga pro 2 is great if you don't need a good trackpad. If you don't want to carry around a mouse, there is no other choice but the fruit.
      - mercurial 12y ago
        Typing this from a Thinkpad with a trackpoint, I couldn't disagree more :) (though I'd as soon chop off my fingers as use the Dell version of the trackpoint).
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        My X1's trackpad is horrible, but thankfully it comes with the eraser mouse, which is accurate even if it hurts my finger tip. The Yoga has no such option like the X1 does, which is why I would avoid it. Why can't just one PC vendor who can make a decent trackpad...
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        To the downvoters, the Yoga 2 Pro really doesn't have a trackpoint as parent implied, just the trackpad + touch.
        thinkmassive 12y ago
        There is a ThinkPad Yoga that does have a trackpoint though. It's different from the other Yoga models, which are in the IdeaPad line. Seems like Lenovo is determined to test the limits of just how many models their customers will tolerate. They're creating a new model for practically every feature instead of creating new options for existing models that are tried and true. I'd prefer they quit diluting the classic ThinkPad lines with experimental models, and up the quality on IdeaPad because they already have a value line called 3000 or something. When I can find a trackpoint with a high res (2k+) screen I'll start shopping again.
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  - ibrahima 12y ago
    I have to question whether this is actually true though. Yes, they have deviated somewhat from the design of older Thinkpads, but I think it's debatable whether they're objectively worse, for the most part. I will say that things like the capacitive F key row on the X1 Carbon are pretty clearly a bad idea, but other minor changes to keyboard layout and even the clickpad thing I would argue could be considered better if you take someone who has never used either version and train them to use both and ask which they prefer. I personally have a T440s and it's a great machine, and I exclusively use the trackpoint. Because the clickpad actually depresses like normal buttons, it's still pretty natural to use it like a more standard trackpoint with buttons. I mean, you can't say whether if IBM still owned Thinkpad they would not be making similar design decisions in order to appeal to mass market tastes. I feel like there's a sense in the Thinkpad community that the new Thinkpads are getting steadily worse but I would argue that that's more due to ingrained preferences rather than objective facts. It's just that because Lenovo is a Chinese company it's easy to blame the perceived downfall of Thinkpad as Lenovo driving costs down.
    - nvarsj 12y ago
      It is largely anecdotal, but you do see a lot of the same issues come up. I bought an x220, and a year later I've sworn off Thinkpads. The palmrest has cracked - a common problem for the x220, documented on forums - and Lenovo refuses to fix it. Similarly the keyboard has turned to complete mush - whereas my old X60 keyboard still feels good as new. The entire chassis has warped over time as well, which means it doesn't sit completely flat on a surface - another documented issue on thinkpad forums. And my first battery, a 9 cell Sanyo, died after about 9 months of careful use - again a well known issue on the forums. So this is why a lot of people perceive quality has tanked at Lenovo. IBM thinkpads did have their own problems (like bad screens), but in general were built like tanks and lasted years.
  - mercurial 12y ago
    > I've decided that my T410 will be the last Thinkpad I will own. I own a T 430. As I have no experience with older models of Thinkpad but am entirely satisfied with this laptop, I'm curious to know what exactly you think is wrong with the current Lenovo offerings.
  - adamors 12y ago
    Even if the T430 and T230 generation changed the keyboard, the Thinkpad line only tuned sour recently IMO, with the T440 and T240. They removed the trackpoint buttons, changed the layout and made upgrading a real pain: you now have to take the machine apart to upgrade the RAM/HDD.
  - nly 12y ago
    > I don't know what my next laptop will be, but I know for sure it will not be a Thinkpad. I bought a ThinkPad earlier this year and returned it soon after. While the keyboard was pretty damn good, the rest of the laptop felt poorly designed and fairly janky, with resources spend on image rather than good design. The buying experience shipping from China sucked as well. I ended up going for a Dell Latitude, which feels solid all round, still has an acceptable traditional keyboard, traditional mouse buttons, a surprisingly responsive nipple, and has a bunch of clearly thought out attributes... like all the ports being on or toward the back.
  - eitally 12y ago
    True story. :) We, a company of nearly 50,000, just switched from Lenovo to Dell as our primary laptop/pc supplier. A) the new models are far inferior to the old ones, B) their pricing hasn't dropped to reflect that, and C) their lead time, even for "top seller" models, is very inconsistent.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 12y ago
    As an owner of 4 ThinkPads, I agree their quality has decreased significantly. But I'm still locked into them because no one else offers me a TrackPoint. I very strongly prefer a TrackPoint to any trackpad, so while other manufacturers don't offer them, I don't even look at their laptops... (I'm aware that Dell does have a couple of TrackPoint models and I will look into them when I have to make my next laptop purchase).
    - ShinyCyril 12y ago
      HP EliteBooks used to have trackpoints - not sure if they still do though.
adventured 12y ago
I think you need to learn a lot more about the US economy, if you think WhatsApp is representative of the world's largest and most productive manufacturing economy. The US is the largest in: software, internet, communications, media, manufacturing, pharma / biotech, defense contracting, aerospace, energy, finance, agriculture And somehow you think Instagram is a big deal? Laughable. Any idea how many $10 billion companies there are in the US?

austinz 12y ago

Fascinating story. Lenovo's rise to prominence reminds me of Haier, especially the presence of a charismatic, ambitious leadership figure not content to settle for just the domestic market. But why are there raccoons all over the article?

adventured 12y ago
Raccoons are often considered to be intelligent trash scavengers.

RevRal 12y ago

Next up: How Lenovo Escapes Heat Death

pointernil 12y ago

All well and nice but: What is the current Thinkpad worth its once trustworthy brand? The way to drive and keep the profits seams to be to lure customers who trusted a brand for years into buying quite frankly ridiculously manufactured surrogate products with the brand-label in the right place... well maybe turned 180 for the new coolness factor ;)

sandGorgon 12y ago

Thinkpads are truly awesome - but the problem is that lenovo is buying into the macbook hype machine without putting thought around it's design process. for example, I recently bought a T430S as opposed to one of the newer T440 ranges. the touchpad is an abomination - and plus they soldered one of the RAMs to the motherboard. Seriously ? One of the biggest differentiators that thinkpads have is their upgradability. I can easily upgrade the CPU of a T430 series [1] and bump up the ram to 16 gb. the newer thinkpads lose both those abilities. The Thinkpad designers have not been able to make up their minds on what they want to build - which is why we see lines like T430/T430s/T430u/T430e and T440/T440s/T440p. [1] http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo/684625-t430-upgrade.html http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo/684625-t430-upgrade.h...

existencebox 12y ago
I have heard through coworker word of mouth, through discussions with lenovo engineers, that the touchpad changes have not been positively received even by the internal engineers. Pretty much everyone I've talked to (including my unfortunate fiancee who had the misfortune of buying one of these) thinks that touchpad is the worst thing since various laptop producers started going towards chicklets. I really wonder how these companies push forward despite (from my point of view) SIGNIFICANT customer pushback. Am I really stuck this far in an engineering bubble, or are things really so disconnected?
- kiallmacinnes 12y ago
  I actually like the touchpad on my T440s, it took some getting used to compared to my old T430s though...
- reirob 12y ago
  It is really that bad. I sent a new machine back - it was worthless for me [1]. For me it is not so much the touchpad changes (I do not use the touchpad) as the lack of physical trackpoint buttons. But even when I tried the new touchpad I absolutely hated the touchpad-is-a-button functionality. It does NOT feel good, sounds horible and is far from being ergonomic. For me personally it would be best to be able to buy Thinkpads just with trackpoint + buttons, but without touchpad. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729110 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7729110

ZanyProgrammer 12y ago

I used to own a ThinkPad Edge-I bought it when I was much poorer than I am now, and needed a decent laptop. It was nice to have a relatively cheap computer with the TP branding, but over time I came to realize that it was nothing more than a generic cheap 14 inch laptop with the TP branding. When you consider what TPs used to be, and what people think of when they think of TPs...well, either the Edge wasn't a true ThinkPad, or Lenovo is seriously diluting the brand. See also the ThinkPad tablet they came out with.

dublinben 12y ago
Your first suspicion was correct. The Edge line aren't true Thinkpads at all. Even the most recent mainline Thinkpads are a significant departure from the values of Thinkpads in the past.

stickhandle 12y ago

Typing on an ideapad Y510p - its an excellent machine. I know that phones and tablets have the seat at the head table right now, but I can't imagine not having a laptop sitting on the kitchen table. Others seem to be dropping that ball ... or at least racing to the bottom. Lenovo laptops always seem a smart choice.

balladeer 12y ago

I use their P780. I bought it for the battery and I was right the battery is beyond excellent and I am saying this based on 2 day's use with 3G ON. But the rest of the things on that phone are either bad or just mediocre. Not to mention the bloat and poor software leave a lot to be desired and a near certainly that there's nothing post 4.2. On top of that they use MediaTek that apparently stops custom ROMs from coming into picture.

Aloha 12y ago

I've had 4 ThinkPads - T21, T42, R60, and now a T510 which I bought new in 2010. My plan is to buy a MacBook next time around, because when you look at price for performance, the MBP Retina blasts pretty much everything out of the water - even the T530 - Apples pricing over the last 4 years has come down, and Lenovo has stayed the same.