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How the design of a BMW Motorcycle affects your App

33 points by jsatok 17y ago

dabeeeenster 17y ago
I've never understood why there's no standard position for the indicator stalk on cars - some are on the left of the steering wheel, some on the right...
- TallGuyShort 17y ago
  I imagine it's now a problem of personal preference. I've mainly driven Toyota's, and so there standard controls are second nature to me. If I drive a Chevy, for instance, I get confused about cruise control, etc... So brands tend to remain the same so their customer's feel comfortable staying with them.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Funny, I have driven quite a few cars, even right hand drive ones and they all had the indicator stalk on the left hand side. What brands have the indicator stalk on the right ? I've seen different arrangements for the wipers and the headlight switches though (sometimes on the stalk, sometimes on the dash, left & right).
  - yangyang 17y ago
    A friend's Hyundai had the indicator stalk on the left, this was several years ago though.
  - xelfer 17y ago
    Almost every single car in Australia (besides exotic/rarer european imports) has it on the right. From personal experience, my father had a ferrari which had it on the left, my brother had a Smart car which had it on the left, but everything else I've driven (20+ cars) had it on the right (all right hand drive cars).
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      Neat! Do they switch the place of the pedals as well ? 'Normally' (depending on your definition of 'normal') it is clutch on the left, brakes in the middle and accelerator on the right foot. Funny how they would do that different than even in the UK, where all cars I've seen had their indicator stalks on the left. It seems to be more of a regional thing than anything else. Makes me wonder what Japan is like... (they also drive on the left).
      - GeneralMaximus 17y ago
        AFAIK, nobody messes with pedal positions. In India, all cars are right hand drives with signals on the right, but pedal positions are still: CLUTCH BRAKE GAS BTW, you can still find some old cars on the roads here which have the gears on the left hand side of the steering wheel :O
        jacquesm 17y ago
        > BTW, you can still find some old cars on the roads here which have the gears on the left hand side of the steering wheel :O I have one like that :), not sure about your definition of 'older', but it is from 2004. It's a RHD Copen.
      - jac_no_k 17y ago
        Hello from Tokyo Japan. On Japanese cars ( right hand drive ), all the stalks are reversed from the exported left hand drive model. This means that Japan cars have the turn signal on the right, upward motion signaling a left turn and downward a right turn. The shifter is of course in the middle console, so is on the drivers left. The wiper control stalk is on the left. The ignition control is on the right. I am curious if the motorcycle controls are reversed though. I guess I'll find that out in a few months.
        jacquesm 17y ago
        So, my little Copen is actually not the same as the Japanese model. Interesting. There are only 30 of these in the country where I live, and they were imported from Japan before they made a left-hand-drive version available. But it looks like they did change the controls over for this. Thank you for the info!
- jgrahamc 17y ago
  When I first moved to the US I had this sudden fear that I was going to be unable to drive a US manual car because I figured that since the steering wheel was on the opposite side of the car, that the pedals would have been reversed. Thank goodness they are exactly the same, but I do wonder how that piece of standardization came about.
  - hybygvuy 17y ago
    Gradually! Some classic Jaguars had the pedals switched - including the famous one in the Inspector Morse TV series which led to a few accidents on set. Porsche also made some race cars with the accelerator on the left to make it quicker to do 'Le Mans starts' - where the driver must run to the car and start it.
    - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
      Didn't they used to jump in, either over the side door or through a window, both feet would reach the footwell at about the same time; arguably from the angle of attack the right foot might be first to the pedals. I suspect it's more to do with gearbox placement or similar.
- JimmyL 17y ago
  I would think that it's standardized nationally by whatever body approves cars for sale - as in I've never seen a car without the indicator stalk on the left in Canada, aside from a Saleen import I saw once. For this one, I suspect it falls under an import exemption, in the same way you can get right-hand drive cars here with some special paperwork.
jacquesm 17y ago
What a load of bull. Pardon my French. That's just a contrived hook, and it's wrong on top of that. If you're driving a bike you'll know this: 2/3rds of your brake power comes from the front wheel, if you're in a turn and you need your front wheel brake that badly you are in big trouble. Most likely you'll end up on the pavement. Turning and braking are done separately, and during emergency evasive maneuvers (the lorry pulling out) signaling is the least of your worries. The sequence normally is: - check your lanes - indicate your turn - wait for a bit to get the rest of the traffic to notice your turn signal - meanwhile, reduce speed and shift down if appropriate - make your move So what if one bike brand does it different than others ? Bike users - unlike web visitors - are adaptable creatures, they know their bikes inside out.
- wuj3888 17y ago
  I think you may have missed the point. Under normal circumstances, one should not brake and turn. But neither should cage drivers turn left in front of you. Or merge into your lane. Or run yellow lights. This stuff happens on the road, and this why so many riders get hurt. To think that the normal sequence of events is the only one worth designing for is naive. The post was about how to consider the human context when designing, and used the bike as an example. Any design decision that could delay a rider's reaction time to the primary brake is a bad idea, regardless of how familiar you are with your bike or how adaptable you may be.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Sure, but there is no proof that the design of the bike really is worse, just his personal preference. When designing websites there is a good case to be made for sticking to the familiar (unless you want to make a point) but to use motor cycle design (especially BMW, one of the most renowned bike brands on the planet with a lot more design credit than the author) as an example is poorly chosen. The whole idea is that you have the thumb of your right hand pretty much in that spot anyway, so no reaction time is lost, rather the opposite, you don't have to make that awkward reset motion with your left hand in order to switch off the blinkers after having made a right hand turn. This is more convenient, not less convenient.
gamache 17y ago
I wrote this comment for the blog but I am unsure that it posted correctly there: BMW Motorrad is similar to Apple in many ways: * Both were early players in their respective markets. Moreso than many other manufacturers, they have a lot of history to draw from. * Both are known for their design and sense of style. A BMW motorcycle, like an Apple device, is almost instantly recognizable once you know the visual cues of each. * Both are premium products at premium prices, designed against disposability. A BMW motorcycle and an Apple computer will typically outlast 2-3 of the average competitor's products, while costing about 1.5x as much. * Both have absolutely rabid followings, winning the kind of fanaticism you can only produce by decades of selling beautiful products that perform beautifully. The BMW turn signals map closely to the Apple 1-button mouse. Is it the most functional design? Nah. But the customers barely care. The design is functional enough, and it conjures the brand very effectively. Here, both BMW and Apple "missed" the waves of standardization to user controls; their controls were always good enough from the start, however, and since the users didn't make a stink about it, both highly successful manufacturers left well enough alone. Looking from our vantage point in the present, sure, someone moving to a BMW or Apple interface will notice a few differences (or, in your words, it will be "inconsistent with virtually every other"). But when you look at it from the point in time at which these interfaces were designed, both were groundbreaking and best-of-breed. Macs had a mouse when their closest competitors would draw some text like "C:>" and drool at you. BMW had foot-shift and hand-clutch when their closest competitors had suicide-shift and clutch pedals. It took another 40 or 50 years for motorcycles to agree upon right-hand throttle, even. Personally, I don't buy the left-brain/right-brain argument you put forth, and I consider the danger pretty low because turn signals get the absolutely lowest priority when I am riding and need to react to emerging situations (that's pretty-talk for "when the dude in the F-150 aims at me suddenly"). I ride a Honda and I am pleased with the left-thumb directional controls, but I bet I could get used to a BMW pretty quickly.... and any donations to test this theory are gratefully accepted. But in any case, I think you need to see some more of the history behind the controls before you can use them as a UI teaching tool.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  I doubt the author of the post ever rode a bike, much less a BMW. Any biker worth their salt could ride either model and with little preference at that. My last bike (in a long dark past) was a Honda, with the left hand thumb arrangement, I can easily see why the BMW arrangement might be a little bit more convenient but so little that it really doesn't matter. And if you're busy with your signals while doing emergency evasive maneuvers I hope you have your health insurance paid up.
JimmyL 17y ago
One of my favorite design-of-everyday-things examples is tiller-controlled outboard motors, like the one seen at http://bit.ly/3Aftns http://bit.ly/3Aftns, and in particular, the ones where the forward/reverse control is integrated into the tiller (as opposed to a separate shifting lever). With those engines, there's a very direct connection between the user's movements (moving the tiller) and the way the boat moves in response. It's not immediately obvious, but it becomes natural once you create a mental model around it - in the same way that using a turn signal on a car isn't immediately obvious (why does moving a swingarm down equate with going left?). The real part I like, however, comes with reversing. As opposed to having to explicitly shift gears, simply turn the throttle in the opposite direction as you do to accelerate. Counter-clockwise to accelerate, clockwise to slow down, and keep turning it clockwise (through a safety stop) and you'll end up going backwards, which you can consider the extreme manifestation of slowing down (you have slowed so much you have negative forward velocity).
- __david__ 17y ago
  > ... using a turn signal on a car isn't immediately obvious (why does moving a swingarm down equate with going left?). Odd, when I learned to drive I found this immediately obvious the first time I actually turned using a signal... The indicator is on the left side, so if I'm making a left hand turn then my hand is moving down--the same way that the signal moves to signal left. In fact, if you are holding the wheel in the right place and extend your fingers while you are turning then your hand clicks the indicator correctly without you having to think at all. I think that, aside from the steering wheel, it's one of the most intuitive things on the car.
- wuj3888 17y ago
  Interesting example! Especially because the steering element of these motors is so counter intuitive - you push left to go right and vice versa :-) I agree with you about the direct connection between the user's movements and the speed, but the direction of the twist required to go forward/backward is fairly arbitrary (it seems), so it must be learned rather than 'intuited'.
  - 17y ago
hs 17y ago
when i ride a motorcycle, i rarely use turn sign ... i literally use my head to turn i don't even use the mirrors because turning my head eliminates blind spots car and bike riders here understand (and accustomed to) what it means when an object in front of them slows down while its rider's helmet turn to left/right but of course it's not safe :( so maybe a better solution is a bike with accelerometer built in (like in iPhone) so the sign flashes whenever i tilt my bike accordingly
- lallysingh 17y ago
  If the sign flashes when you're already turning, it's pretty much too late, don'tyathink? At that point an observer may think that you're signalling a second turn.
  - shrikant 17y ago
    Amen, dude. http://shr1k.blogspot.com/2009/07/open-letter-to-motorists.html http://shr1k.blogspot.com/2009/07/open-letter-to-motorists.h...
sharkey 17y ago
BEEP! Oh, sorry, just trying to readjust to Honda controls ... Anyway, I never found 3. to be a problem on my R100GS (w/ early K-style controls) but I think there's another really important point here: supporting those three buttons requires a whole mess of relays, latches and so on, in a black box the size of a couple of packs of cigs, hidden away under the tank. If it fails, like mine did, there's no way to do a roadside repair. It's a black box, literally. Whereas the standard setup has one simple mechanical switch and one flasher can and not many wires. Its very simple to diagnose and you can get a new flasher can anywhere for $5. The appropriate BMW slogan: "Why simple, when complicated works?"
- wuj3888 17y ago
  Heh, did that exact thing riding by a neighbor I never talk to - beeped when I meant to signal left. But on a Beemer :-)
bmwbud 17y ago
Very amusing discussion. In particular regarding front wheel braking. You guys really have a sense of humor.
jasongullickson 17y ago
Maybe this is an oversimplification, but I think the point of the article is "if you're going to do something in a non-standard way, there should be a reason", and the author didn't see an obvious reason for BMW's deviation. As a motorcyclist I don't see an immediate, obvious advantage to the BMW approach vs. the standard approach but like most things on motorcycles, you may need to actually use it before it makes sense to you. So it looks like I now have an excuse to spend some time riding Beemers...
nessence 17y ago
There's a significant problem with the theories behind this post. You have to engage the clutch to break hard or you're going to stall the bike. In fact, many times, acceleration will get you out of as many problems as breaking. Horn is more important to me anyways - they should all be WAY louder. A better option is an auto-canceling turn signal which I'm sure too expensive, for now. Until then, for either design, the suck is going to depend on finger/thumb size.

33 points by jsatok 17y ago

I've never understood why there's no standard position for the indicator stalk on cars - some are on the left of the steering wheel, some on the right...

TallGuyShort 17y ago
I imagine it's now a problem of personal preference. I've mainly driven Toyota's, and so there standard controls are second nature to me. If I drive a Chevy, for instance, I get confused about cruise control, etc... So brands tend to remain the same so their customer's feel comfortable staying with them.
jacquesm 17y ago
Funny, I have driven quite a few cars, even right hand drive ones and they all had the indicator stalk on the left hand side. What brands have the indicator stalk on the right ? I've seen different arrangements for the wipers and the headlight switches though (sometimes on the stalk, sometimes on the dash, left & right).
- yangyang 17y ago
  A friend's Hyundai had the indicator stalk on the left, this was several years ago though.
- xelfer 17y ago
  Almost every single car in Australia (besides exotic/rarer european imports) has it on the right. From personal experience, my father had a ferrari which had it on the left, my brother had a Smart car which had it on the left, but everything else I've driven (20+ cars) had it on the right (all right hand drive cars).
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Neat! Do they switch the place of the pedals as well ? 'Normally' (depending on your definition of 'normal') it is clutch on the left, brakes in the middle and accelerator on the right foot. Funny how they would do that different than even in the UK, where all cars I've seen had their indicator stalks on the left. It seems to be more of a regional thing than anything else. Makes me wonder what Japan is like... (they also drive on the left).
    - GeneralMaximus 17y ago
      AFAIK, nobody messes with pedal positions. In India, all cars are right hand drives with signals on the right, but pedal positions are still: CLUTCH BRAKE GAS BTW, you can still find some old cars on the roads here which have the gears on the left hand side of the steering wheel :O
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        > BTW, you can still find some old cars on the roads here which have the gears on the left hand side of the steering wheel :O I have one like that :), not sure about your definition of 'older', but it is from 2004. It's a RHD Copen.
    - jac_no_k 17y ago
      Hello from Tokyo Japan. On Japanese cars ( right hand drive ), all the stalks are reversed from the exported left hand drive model. This means that Japan cars have the turn signal on the right, upward motion signaling a left turn and downward a right turn. The shifter is of course in the middle console, so is on the drivers left. The wiper control stalk is on the left. The ignition control is on the right. I am curious if the motorcycle controls are reversed though. I guess I'll find that out in a few months.
      - jacquesm 17y ago
        So, my little Copen is actually not the same as the Japanese model. Interesting. There are only 30 of these in the country where I live, and they were imported from Japan before they made a left-hand-drive version available. But it looks like they did change the controls over for this. Thank you for the info!
jgrahamc 17y ago
When I first moved to the US I had this sudden fear that I was going to be unable to drive a US manual car because I figured that since the steering wheel was on the opposite side of the car, that the pedals would have been reversed. Thank goodness they are exactly the same, but I do wonder how that piece of standardization came about.
- hybygvuy 17y ago
  Gradually! Some classic Jaguars had the pedals switched - including the famous one in the Inspector Morse TV series which led to a few accidents on set. Porsche also made some race cars with the accelerator on the left to make it quicker to do 'Le Mans starts' - where the driver must run to the car and start it.
  - pbhjpbhj 17y ago
    Didn't they used to jump in, either over the side door or through a window, both feet would reach the footwell at about the same time; arguably from the angle of attack the right foot might be first to the pedals. I suspect it's more to do with gearbox placement or similar.
JimmyL 17y ago
I would think that it's standardized nationally by whatever body approves cars for sale - as in I've never seen a car without the indicator stalk on the left in Canada, aside from a Saleen import I saw once. For this one, I suspect it falls under an import exemption, in the same way you can get right-hand drive cars here with some special paperwork.

jacquesm 17y ago

What a load of bull. Pardon my French. That's just a contrived hook, and it's wrong on top of that. If you're driving a bike you'll know this: 2/3rds of your brake power comes from the front wheel, if you're in a turn and you need your front wheel brake that badly you are in big trouble. Most likely you'll end up on the pavement. Turning and braking are done separately, and during emergency evasive maneuvers (the lorry pulling out) signaling is the least of your worries. The sequence normally is: - check your lanes - indicate your turn - wait for a bit to get the rest of the traffic to notice your turn signal - meanwhile, reduce speed and shift down if appropriate - make your move So what if one bike brand does it different than others ? Bike users - unlike web visitors - are adaptable creatures, they know their bikes inside out.

wuj3888 17y ago
I think you may have missed the point. Under normal circumstances, one should not brake and turn. But neither should cage drivers turn left in front of you. Or merge into your lane. Or run yellow lights. This stuff happens on the road, and this why so many riders get hurt. To think that the normal sequence of events is the only one worth designing for is naive. The post was about how to consider the human context when designing, and used the bike as an example. Any design decision that could delay a rider's reaction time to the primary brake is a bad idea, regardless of how familiar you are with your bike or how adaptable you may be.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Sure, but there is no proof that the design of the bike really is worse, just his personal preference. When designing websites there is a good case to be made for sticking to the familiar (unless you want to make a point) but to use motor cycle design (especially BMW, one of the most renowned bike brands on the planet with a lot more design credit than the author) as an example is poorly chosen. The whole idea is that you have the thumb of your right hand pretty much in that spot anyway, so no reaction time is lost, rather the opposite, you don't have to make that awkward reset motion with your left hand in order to switch off the blinkers after having made a right hand turn. This is more convenient, not less convenient.

gamache 17y ago

I wrote this comment for the blog but I am unsure that it posted correctly there: BMW Motorrad is similar to Apple in many ways: * Both were early players in their respective markets. Moreso than many other manufacturers, they have a lot of history to draw from. * Both are known for their design and sense of style. A BMW motorcycle, like an Apple device, is almost instantly recognizable once you know the visual cues of each. * Both are premium products at premium prices, designed against disposability. A BMW motorcycle and an Apple computer will typically outlast 2-3 of the average competitor's products, while costing about 1.5x as much. * Both have absolutely rabid followings, winning the kind of fanaticism you can only produce by decades of selling beautiful products that perform beautifully. The BMW turn signals map closely to the Apple 1-button mouse. Is it the most functional design? Nah. But the customers barely care. The design is functional enough, and it conjures the brand very effectively. Here, both BMW and Apple "missed" the waves of standardization to user controls; their controls were always good enough from the start, however, and since the users didn't make a stink about it, both highly successful manufacturers left well enough alone. Looking from our vantage point in the present, sure, someone moving to a BMW or Apple interface will notice a few differences (or, in your words, it will be "inconsistent with virtually every other"). But when you look at it from the point in time at which these interfaces were designed, both were groundbreaking and best-of-breed. Macs had a mouse when their closest competitors would draw some text like "C:>" and drool at you. BMW had foot-shift and hand-clutch when their closest competitors had suicide-shift and clutch pedals. It took another 40 or 50 years for motorcycles to agree upon right-hand throttle, even. Personally, I don't buy the left-brain/right-brain argument you put forth, and I consider the danger pretty low because turn signals get the absolutely lowest priority when I am riding and need to react to emerging situations (that's pretty-talk for "when the dude in the F-150 aims at me suddenly"). I ride a Honda and I am pleased with the left-thumb directional controls, but I bet I could get used to a BMW pretty quickly.... and any donations to test this theory are gratefully accepted. But in any case, I think you need to see some more of the history behind the controls before you can use them as a UI teaching tool.

jacquesm 17y ago
I doubt the author of the post ever rode a bike, much less a BMW. Any biker worth their salt could ride either model and with little preference at that. My last bike (in a long dark past) was a Honda, with the left hand thumb arrangement, I can easily see why the BMW arrangement might be a little bit more convenient but so little that it really doesn't matter. And if you're busy with your signals while doing emergency evasive maneuvers I hope you have your health insurance paid up.

JimmyL 17y ago

One of my favorite design-of-everyday-things examples is tiller-controlled outboard motors, like the one seen at http://bit.ly/3Aftns http://bit.ly/3Aftns, and in particular, the ones where the forward/reverse control is integrated into the tiller (as opposed to a separate shifting lever). With those engines, there's a very direct connection between the user's movements (moving the tiller) and the way the boat moves in response. It's not immediately obvious, but it becomes natural once you create a mental model around it - in the same way that using a turn signal on a car isn't immediately obvious (why does moving a swingarm down equate with going left?). The real part I like, however, comes with reversing. As opposed to having to explicitly shift gears, simply turn the throttle in the opposite direction as you do to accelerate. Counter-clockwise to accelerate, clockwise to slow down, and keep turning it clockwise (through a safety stop) and you'll end up going backwards, which you can consider the extreme manifestation of slowing down (you have slowed so much you have negative forward velocity).

__david__ 17y ago
> ... using a turn signal on a car isn't immediately obvious (why does moving a swingarm down equate with going left?). Odd, when I learned to drive I found this immediately obvious the first time I actually turned using a signal... The indicator is on the left side, so if I'm making a left hand turn then my hand is moving down--the same way that the signal moves to signal left. In fact, if you are holding the wheel in the right place and extend your fingers while you are turning then your hand clicks the indicator correctly without you having to think at all. I think that, aside from the steering wheel, it's one of the most intuitive things on the car.
wuj3888 17y ago
Interesting example! Especially because the steering element of these motors is so counter intuitive - you push left to go right and vice versa :-) I agree with you about the direct connection between the user's movements and the speed, but the direction of the twist required to go forward/backward is fairly arbitrary (it seems), so it must be learned rather than 'intuited'.
- 17y ago

hs 17y ago

when i ride a motorcycle, i rarely use turn sign ... i literally use my head to turn i don't even use the mirrors because turning my head eliminates blind spots car and bike riders here understand (and accustomed to) what it means when an object in front of them slows down while its rider's helmet turn to left/right but of course it's not safe :( so maybe a better solution is a bike with accelerometer built in (like in iPhone) so the sign flashes whenever i tilt my bike accordingly

lallysingh 17y ago
If the sign flashes when you're already turning, it's pretty much too late, don'tyathink? At that point an observer may think that you're signalling a second turn.
- shrikant 17y ago
  Amen, dude. http://shr1k.blogspot.com/2009/07/open-letter-to-motorists.html http://shr1k.blogspot.com/2009/07/open-letter-to-motorists.h...

sharkey 17y ago

BEEP! Oh, sorry, just trying to readjust to Honda controls ... Anyway, I never found 3. to be a problem on my R100GS (w/ early K-style controls) but I think there's another really important point here: supporting those three buttons requires a whole mess of relays, latches and so on, in a black box the size of a couple of packs of cigs, hidden away under the tank. If it fails, like mine did, there's no way to do a roadside repair. It's a black box, literally. Whereas the standard setup has one simple mechanical switch and one flasher can and not many wires. Its very simple to diagnose and you can get a new flasher can anywhere for $5. The appropriate BMW slogan: "Why simple, when complicated works?"

wuj3888 17y ago
Heh, did that exact thing riding by a neighbor I never talk to - beeped when I meant to signal left. But on a Beemer :-)

bmwbud 17y ago

Very amusing discussion. In particular regarding front wheel braking. You guys really have a sense of humor.

jasongullickson 17y ago

Maybe this is an oversimplification, but I think the point of the article is "if you're going to do something in a non-standard way, there should be a reason", and the author didn't see an obvious reason for BMW's deviation. As a motorcyclist I don't see an immediate, obvious advantage to the BMW approach vs. the standard approach but like most things on motorcycles, you may need to actually use it before it makes sense to you. So it looks like I now have an excuse to spend some time riding Beemers...

nessence 17y ago

There's a significant problem with the theories behind this post. You have to engage the clutch to break hard or you're going to stall the bike. In fact, many times, acceleration will get you out of as many problems as breaking. Horn is more important to me anyways - they should all be WAY louder. A better option is an auto-canceling turn signal which I'm sure too expensive, for now. Until then, for either design, the suck is going to depend on finger/thumb size.