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I grew up in the SF Bay Area and feel the same way. I thought that this is how the whole world worked. You have to be constantly concerned about having your pos
by shinymark 13y ago
I grew up in the SF Bay Area and feel the same way. I thought that this is how the whole world worked. You have to be constantly concerned about having your possessions stolen if you leave them briefly exposed in a public place.
Then, I lived in Tokyo for a few years. People leave belongings unattended in coffee shops and restaurants all the time. It's a common occurrence to see someone put down their belongings at a table, leave them there, then go order food or drinks where their belongings are out of sight.
Sure, there is still theft in Japan. But it was a really eye opening and nice experience to see that there are places where distrust of others in this context isn't the default state.
- w1ntermute 13y agoSure, Japan's culture is great when it comes to personal safety. But many would say that that same culture is responsible for its economic malaise of the last 25 years.
- wismer 13y agohuh?
- chad_oliver 13y agoYes, but those two aspects of their culture are totally orthogonal. Why can't we build a society where we have the former and not the latter?
- w1ntermute 13y ago> Yes, but those two aspects of their culture are totally orthogonal. No, they're not. The social uniformity and equality in Japan that makes Tokyo surprisingly safe for its size is also responsible for the lack of entrepreneurship and innovation in Japan. > Why can't we build a society where we have the former and not the latter? If you want some young people to succeed spectacularly, then you also have to allow some (a lot) of young people to fail spectacularly. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
- nitrogen 13y agoIf you want some young people to succeed spectacularly, then you also have to allow some (a lot) of young people to fail spectacularly. How does the second statement follow logically from the first? How does putting a floor under the bottom of humanity automatically put a ceiling over the top?
- lovemenot 13y agoI think of it as two normal distributions. One is tight in the centre with few outliers at either end, the other is flatter. More excellence and more rubbish. The former is Japan, while the latter is your baseline - I believe we were using USA. It is common to see normal distributions, but rarer to see them skewed in the way you are proposing. Note, I don't believe this is deterministic at the individual level. People choose to do crime or to think differently. Nevertheless, at the level of society, the law of large numbers applies.
- Dylan16807 13y agoThere is absolutely no reason it has to be a normal distribution. But let's say you started with one for the sake of simplicity. You could shift the peak a very small amount left (with taxes) and use that money to bring the entire left edge up to the same standard of living. This would have next to no effect on the right edge, the ones succeeding spectacularly. The distribution is already highly skewed anyway.
- nitrogen 13y agoPeople choose to do crime or to think differently. One of the interesting conclusions one can draw from studies of physics and biology is that it's highly likely that "choice" is really a very complex chemical process, rather than some independent act that a unified person entity performs in complete isolation from their brain and body. Assuming for the sake of argument that this is completely true, I think we can make significant progress in improving people's ability to "choose" by approaching the problem of detrimental or criminal choices from a biological and physical perspective -- that is, to use a rational, scientific approach to influencing brains and bodies as highly complex, sentient physical objects, rather than a moral, philosophical approach to distributing punishment and reward.
- lovemenot 13y agoThis comment may be suggesting that the hidden cost of trust in Japan is uniformity of behaviour. Which can have economic consequences when individuals and organisations are unable or unwilling to embrace disruptive change. If so, I tend to agree with the comment.
- ANTSANTS 13y ago"Disruptive change" is a funny euphemism for theft. I'll have to remember that one.
- lovemenot 13y agoMy argument was that uniformity of behaviour can have different consequences simultaneously. A positive one can be trust (lack of street crime). A negative consequence of uniformity of behaviour can be lack of disruption.
- Dylan16807 13y agoI don't understand how uniformity of behavior is inherently anti-theft. These still seem like unrelated things.
- lovemenot 13y agoUniformity of behavior may not be inherently anti-theft in all circumstances. What I see this happening in japan though is that, to a larger extent than I have seen elsewhere, people are consistently, almost uniformly, pro-social. Group consideration tends to trump individual opportunity. Consider the different value of cost/benefit to society and to the criminal of a criminal act. I am arguing that Japanese will tend to see the social cost more than the individual benefit, even when they themselves may be the beneficiary. And on the other side of this coin, as we have been discussing; the same social consideration tends to make people more reluctant to force unwanted (disruptive) changes on others who might be hurt in the short term.
- ANTSANTS 13y ago
- andywood 13y agoI know that I'm the weird one, because everybody I know never lets me forget it, particularly on this issue. But I've always thought the opposite: I always thought it was weird that everybody thought somebody would steal their stuff. What are the odds of that? I've always left everything unlocked and left my stuff wherever if I needed to walk away. In all my 35 years, I've only ever had one item stolen: a cheap bicycle. Granted, it wouldn't have been stolen if I'd locked it up :)
- jrs99 13y agoi started getting paranoid when it actually happened to me. Think about this girl who got her laptop stolen. Do you think she'll ever not be paranoid about leaving a laptop in a cafe? She'll be packing that up before she goes to the bathroom for the rest of her life. It's not weird at all, in my opinion, because it's just so TRUE. There ARE weird people out there that simply want everything that you have and will take it all when they get the opportunity. Not to mention the people who are stealing because they really need the money, and people with Alzheimer's who can't help stealing things. I've never had a flat tire in my life, but I'm still driving with a spare tire in the trunk.
- megablast 13y agoThe odds of getting your stuff stolen are very low. But having your stuff stolen is so bad, that it is worth doing stuff to avoid it, like taking it with you to the bathroom.
- baddox 13y ago
- seanmcdirmid 13y agoThis is true in China even if that doesn't seem intuitive: go to the bathroom, just leave your stuff at your table and you'll probably be fine. Depends on the traffic though. You'll also hardly have a problem in the states barring some high crime areas.
- tellarin 13y agoNot only Japan. Singapore and China are the same. When leaving in Singapore it took me a long time to trust it, but I never trusted leaving my laptop. Sweden also used to be like that, but it's been changing over there. Unfortunately most places are not like this. From developing countries (especially Brazil) to major touristy cities in Europe. :-/
- ulfw 13y agoThat's just sad