9 ms·

Solitary confinement’s psychological effects

146 points by pierre-renaux 13y ago

wtvanhest 13y ago
I donated $500 (and convinced my company to match $500) for FAMM, Families Against Mandatory Minimums last year. Its not perfect, but at least they are trying to make a dent in the number of people in prison, especially those with long sentences which may not make logical sense due to strict mandatory minimum laws. I'm going to donate some more this year, and hopefully get my company to increase their donation level but I'm always interested in finding the group that will have the maximum positive impact to donate to. If anyone has any other ideas for higher impact groups, I'm interested in knowing about them. I've ruled out all the legalize drugs groups because I won't be able to get a major corporation to donate to them even though I think they are worthwhile causes.
- clamprecht 13y ago
  Wow, thank you for donating. I spent 5 years in federal prison, and the FAMM newsletters (FAMM-grams, they were called) were always helpful, and usually contained a glimmer of hope for fixing sentencing disparity. I knew plenty of people (non-violent drug offenders) with insane sentences of 10, 20, 30 years. Anyway, I just want to make sure you know that your donation actually does make a difference to real people.
  - eruditely 13y ago
    What crime was it?
    - nicarus1984 13y ago
      First Google search result of his name: http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/1997/12/8854 http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/1997/12/8854 Interesting read.
      - marvin 13y ago
        Fuck. That's a cruel and unusual punishment, although a judge in his 50s wouldn't see it that way in 1995. It's basically the pre-digital age equivalent of banning a person from reading for seven years.
  - ballard 13y ago
    Or 50 years. R.I.P. A.S.
  - wtvanhest 13y ago
    The way I see it, I may have a lot of student debt, but at least I'm not being held in prison for 20+ years because of some arbitrary mandatory minimum law created by a politician I probably elected. FAMM, NORML and the rest of the groups fighting this have a huge problem. People that are successful have very limited and usually no exposure to anyone that has been in prison. This disconnect is making it extremely difficult for them to raise the money they nee to fight this huge problem we have. The solution which I am struggling to find would involve creating a message that touches the middle class. Without that message a ridiculous number of people will continue to spend a long time in prison that shouldn't be there.
- sharkweek 13y ago
  For anyone a little less familiar with mandatory minimum sentencing -- I highly recommend the documentary 'The House I Live In' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0atL1HSwi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0atL1HSwi8 Streams instantly on Netflix - one of the most important documentaries I've ever seen
therobot24 13y ago
It's hard to draw correlation between someone captured in iran and the many convicts in solitary confinement. Prisoners aren't just put into solitary for any arbitrary reason, many times it's due to a consistent history of violence outside and inside the prison system. While a woman and her husband getting nabbed is a completely different situation. In any case, it seems obvious that solitary will affect mental health. But what do we do for consistently violent offenders? Clearly they do not function in general population. Do they get a solitary buddy to talk to for a few hours a day?
- ekianjo 13y ago
  Maybe some kind of intranet access to chat with other prisoners locally ? It does not replace human contact, but it can bring some benefits nonetheless to make one feel less lonely.
- moxie 13y ago
  Prisoners in the USA are, in fact, put into solitary for some pretty arbitrary reasons, including the types of books they read. You might find this article by Shane Bauer, one of the hostages held by Iran, interesting: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/solitary-confinement-shane-bauer http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/solitary-confine...
  - brownbat 13y ago
    > Prisoners in the USA are, in fact, put into solitary for some pretty arbitrary reasons, Sometimes overused isn't sufficient. So long as solitary is ever used to prevent violence, it seems like a necessary tool. I'm all for more oversight. Faster appeals for enhanced punishment and vastly greater funding for public defenders would be a great start. Greater phone privileges, standards for minimum cell conditions, all of these. Some prisoners can't be put in rooms with other people without constant supervision though. Some will smash anything breakable, others will begin any meetings with female defense attorneys by attempting to masturbate against their leg. Defecating around others is fairly popular. Most of these inmates need treatment, sure, but many refuse. (Courts have ruled that you can't forcibly medicate unless it's a medical necessity.) Insisting every prisoner mingle with the general population is not the solution here. It would not only be unworkable, it would endanger the lives of both the mentally ill and other inmates.
mynameishere 13y ago
I always figured that if I had to go to prison, I would rather solitary. As long as you can get decent books and have a TV, which is typical in the US, it sounds vastly better than having to sleep in a common area with dozens of real criminals (also typical enough). It doesn't surprise me that men who get solitary for violent infractions hate it. These are hyper-social people, who need continuous interaction with others, whether as a friend or a competitor or a predator. By contrast, I can go weeks without speaking to a person. It just doesn't sound that bad, relatively. Obviously, I'm speculating. But a real test, taking ordinary people and subjecting them either to solitary or a confined population of thugs, and comparing the results, would be pretty unethical. At the same time, you can neither trust the personal account of a woman in extraordinary circumstances, nor those of the most violent, probably psychopathic, criminals.
- acjohnson55 13y ago
  At the same time, you can neither trust the personal account of a woman in extraordinary circumstances, nor those of the most violent, probably psychopathic, criminals. Fortunately (or perhaps, unfortunately), there are plenty of other sorts of people who've spent serious time in solitary who can corroborate the horror. And even assuming everyone in prison is guilty of some offense, just because someone committed a crime doesn't justify inflicting psychological trauma on them.
- microjesus 13y ago
  Someone down-vote this troll.
  - microjesus 13y ago
    Eeek, I was replying to someone in the thread, whoops.
- sillysaurus3 13y ago
  The jail guards usually won't let you have a nice time in prison. If they see that you're enjoying something, they feel it's their job to take it away from you.
Theodores 13y ago
The Florence, Colorado Federal SuperMAX is the one of particular note. There are lots of people in there that are political prisoners locked away for no good reason. The 21st hijacker - Zacarius Moussaoui - is a case in point. He had nothing to do with 9/11 yet during an early turf war between government departments vying for the money that went with The War Against Terror he got pretty much framed. He had over-stayed his visa and done nothing of harm to anyone, yet someone had to be scape-goated by the State Department. There are plenty more 'suspected al-qaeda' locked away there, with conditions every bit as bad as Guantanamo, yet locked up purely so that once upon a time a President could have some orange terror alert pushing everything else out of the news headlines for a couple of days. Sure there are the psychos that tried to kill prison staff elsewhere in the system that get the SuperMAX treatment, however, the Florence facility is too much like the Tower of London dungeons as used in medieval times.
- bpodgursky 13y ago
  Just to save everyone else the time I spent reading wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui), there is no question that Zacarius: (1) knew about the plans for 9/11, although he wasn't selected to participate in that attack (2) was planning a separate attack via plane on the white house, but was arrested first (3) was taking flying classes to prepare for that attack This is tangental to the quite valid original article, but claiming that Zacarus was "framed" is an enormous distortion of the facts.
  - Theodores 13y ago
    Here is another Wikipedia article for your enjoyment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hubert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hubert Given how quickly you responded to my original post and given that you responded with a link to a Wikipedia article to which you bullet-pointed-out your mere opinions, I suggest you think before you post on subjects that you have no knowledge of.
    - hueving 13y ago
BadassFractal 13y ago
Are there any studies on whether advanced meditation skills can somehow reduce the effects of solitary?
- prestadige 13y ago
  Ironic, isn't it, that solitary is a severe punishment in one context but is also part of the traditional means (going off to a lonely cave for a few years) of obtaining enlightenment?
  - agumonkey 13y ago
    I mentioned that in another comment. Being you're own decision might be the whole difference between meditation and torture. My 2cts question.
  - wyager 13y ago
    I imagine that psychologically, the difference between solitary meditation and solitary confinement is like the difference between sex and rape, or taking drugs and being drugged. They're procedurally similar acts, but the element of choice changes everything.
  - ljf 13y ago
    Being a cave to meditate is a very different thing. There you are free to leave at any time, but you are trying to aquire mastery and control of your body and mind, in the face of your desire to do otherwise. I think solitary is rather different.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
dimitar 13y ago
The point of jails should be to isolate dangerous people from potential victims, not punish anyone. I can imagine no reason to isolate a person to the point of literally locking him or her in a cage. At least provide TV or radio, there is literally no place on earth where this is prohibitively expensive.
- noonespecial 13y ago
  These things are generally available through special companies that have special contracts and and of course get to sell them to inmates at "special" prices. The ultimate "captive" market. http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2014/01/the-ipod-of-prison-sony-radio.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2014/01/the-i...
refurb 13y ago
I guess the question is, if you get rid of solitary confinement, what do you do with the prisoners who are threats to other prisoners?
- thret 13y ago
  Capital punishment?
- DonGateley 13y ago
  Secure confinement to eliminate the danger a prisoner might present to another need not require social and sensory isolation. That is purely punitive and futile at best, contributory at worst.
  - refurb 13y ago
    I don't disagree on the sensory isolation, but I think one of the reasons for social isolation is problem inmates who antagonize and provoke other inmates. Sure you could physically isolate inmates, but allow them to communicate, but that would be like keeping two roosters together separated by chicken wire; they'd be at each other constantly with verbal threats, etc. Doesn't sound that much better.
Osiris 13y ago
Here in Denver there has been some debate about this issue [1]. The new prison chief put himself in solitary to try to understand how inmates feel. "Rick Raemisch says he suffered mental anguish after spending only 20 hours in solitary confinement. The average in Colorado is 23 months." [1] http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/colorado-prison-chief-rick-raemisch-spends-a-day-in-solitary-confinement http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/colorado-pri...
- ljf 13y ago
  While it seems extreme, I'd love to see more public officals put them selves up for similar 'stunts': spend time in a prison, live on minimum wage, use a bicycle for your daily commute, be tazered, experience waterboarding. When people can speak with knowledge about some of the horrors and dangers that we put our populations in, then I'd feel a lot more comfortable, and trust them to be more engaged.
  - grkvlt 13y ago
    > spend time in a prison, live on minimum wage, use a bicycle for your daily commute, be tazered, experience water boarding One of these things is not like the others...
    - ljf 13y ago
      True, the levels of horror are mixed here, but the crying was something that hit me this morning. If more of out politicians, public servants and even taxi and bus drivers cycled a few days each year, I'm sure the roads in Britain would be a very different place. Similarly I'd love to see people experience some of the pain and danger they seem willing to put others in. The cycling comment was flippant (and my personal bugbear) but I think it is part of a whole spectrum of engagement and understanding that we should expect from those that want to and chose to run and operate the mechanics of our countries.
      - sedev 13y ago
        In America, there's a very annoyingly direct correlation between "cities with good public transit" and "cities whose administrators use public transit routinely." So that argues in favor of your point. I wish it could simply be taken for granted that people who don't ride on public transit will do a worse job of overseeing it than people who do.
nitrogen 13y ago
Do the effects of solitary confinement differ for self-described introverts? Obviously unwanted, involuntary confinement will be unpleasant no matter what, but I wonder if those at the extreme who would voluntarily isolate themselves from the world for days at a time would experience the same effects as those who thrive on human contact.
zacinbusiness 13y ago
I have very mixed feelings about this kind of thing. There are thousands of people that are basically in jail simply because they aren't white. Or who have ridiculous sentences because the judge wanted to make an example of them. But then there are people who would beat you within an inch of your life, or flat out kill you, just because you "disrespect" them. A good friend of mine was a prison psychologist for 20 years and he has some truly chilling stories. So, while I hate the idea of exiling someone for life or even for a few weeks...it feels like there are precious few alternatives in some cases.
- aragot 13y ago
  > flat out kill you This is just speculation. You don't know what they would do if you gave them a chance, a second chance, a third chance, lots of love and a few material means. As a proof, incarceration rate is lower in my country [1] and we have less violence on the street. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat...

146 points by pierre-renaux 13y ago

I donated $500 (and convinced my company to match $500) for FAMM, Families Against Mandatory Minimums last year. Its not perfect, but at least they are trying to make a dent in the number of people in prison, especially those with long sentences which may not make logical sense due to strict mandatory minimum laws. I'm going to donate some more this year, and hopefully get my company to increase their donation level but I'm always interested in finding the group that will have the maximum positive impact to donate to. If anyone has any other ideas for higher impact groups, I'm interested in knowing about them. I've ruled out all the legalize drugs groups because I won't be able to get a major corporation to donate to them even though I think they are worthwhile causes.

clamprecht 13y ago
Wow, thank you for donating. I spent 5 years in federal prison, and the FAMM newsletters (FAMM-grams, they were called) were always helpful, and usually contained a glimmer of hope for fixing sentencing disparity. I knew plenty of people (non-violent drug offenders) with insane sentences of 10, 20, 30 years. Anyway, I just want to make sure you know that your donation actually does make a difference to real people.
- eruditely 13y ago
  What crime was it?
  - nicarus1984 13y ago
    First Google search result of his name: http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/1997/12/8854 http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/1997/12/8854 Interesting read.
    - marvin 13y ago
      Fuck. That's a cruel and unusual punishment, although a judge in his 50s wouldn't see it that way in 1995. It's basically the pre-digital age equivalent of banning a person from reading for seven years.
- ballard 13y ago
  Or 50 years. R.I.P. A.S.
- wtvanhest 13y ago
  The way I see it, I may have a lot of student debt, but at least I'm not being held in prison for 20+ years because of some arbitrary mandatory minimum law created by a politician I probably elected. FAMM, NORML and the rest of the groups fighting this have a huge problem. People that are successful have very limited and usually no exposure to anyone that has been in prison. This disconnect is making it extremely difficult for them to raise the money they nee to fight this huge problem we have. The solution which I am struggling to find would involve creating a message that touches the middle class. Without that message a ridiculous number of people will continue to spend a long time in prison that shouldn't be there.
sharkweek 13y ago
For anyone a little less familiar with mandatory minimum sentencing -- I highly recommend the documentary 'The House I Live In' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0atL1HSwi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0atL1HSwi8 Streams instantly on Netflix - one of the most important documentaries I've ever seen

therobot24 13y ago

It's hard to draw correlation between someone captured in iran and the many convicts in solitary confinement. Prisoners aren't just put into solitary for any arbitrary reason, many times it's due to a consistent history of violence outside and inside the prison system. While a woman and her husband getting nabbed is a completely different situation. In any case, it seems obvious that solitary will affect mental health. But what do we do for consistently violent offenders? Clearly they do not function in general population. Do they get a solitary buddy to talk to for a few hours a day?

ekianjo 13y ago
Maybe some kind of intranet access to chat with other prisoners locally ? It does not replace human contact, but it can bring some benefits nonetheless to make one feel less lonely.
moxie 13y ago
Prisoners in the USA are, in fact, put into solitary for some pretty arbitrary reasons, including the types of books they read. You might find this article by Shane Bauer, one of the hostages held by Iran, interesting: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/solitary-confinement-shane-bauer http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/10/solitary-confine...
- brownbat 13y ago
  > Prisoners in the USA are, in fact, put into solitary for some pretty arbitrary reasons, Sometimes overused isn't sufficient. So long as solitary is ever used to prevent violence, it seems like a necessary tool. I'm all for more oversight. Faster appeals for enhanced punishment and vastly greater funding for public defenders would be a great start. Greater phone privileges, standards for minimum cell conditions, all of these. Some prisoners can't be put in rooms with other people without constant supervision though. Some will smash anything breakable, others will begin any meetings with female defense attorneys by attempting to masturbate against their leg. Defecating around others is fairly popular. Most of these inmates need treatment, sure, but many refuse. (Courts have ruled that you can't forcibly medicate unless it's a medical necessity.) Insisting every prisoner mingle with the general population is not the solution here. It would not only be unworkable, it would endanger the lives of both the mentally ill and other inmates.

mynameishere 13y ago

I always figured that if I had to go to prison, I would rather solitary. As long as you can get decent books and have a TV, which is typical in the US, it sounds vastly better than having to sleep in a common area with dozens of real criminals (also typical enough). It doesn't surprise me that men who get solitary for violent infractions hate it. These are hyper-social people, who need continuous interaction with others, whether as a friend or a competitor or a predator. By contrast, I can go weeks without speaking to a person. It just doesn't sound that bad, relatively. Obviously, I'm speculating. But a real test, taking ordinary people and subjecting them either to solitary or a confined population of thugs, and comparing the results, would be pretty unethical. At the same time, you can neither trust the personal account of a woman in extraordinary circumstances, nor those of the most violent, probably psychopathic, criminals.

acjohnson55 13y ago
At the same time, you can neither trust the personal account of a woman in extraordinary circumstances, nor those of the most violent, probably psychopathic, criminals. Fortunately (or perhaps, unfortunately), there are plenty of other sorts of people who've spent serious time in solitary who can corroborate the horror. And even assuming everyone in prison is guilty of some offense, just because someone committed a crime doesn't justify inflicting psychological trauma on them.
microjesus 13y ago
Someone down-vote this troll.
- microjesus 13y ago
  Eeek, I was replying to someone in the thread, whoops.
sillysaurus3 13y ago
The jail guards usually won't let you have a nice time in prison. If they see that you're enjoying something, they feel it's their job to take it away from you.

Theodores 13y ago

The Florence, Colorado Federal SuperMAX is the one of particular note. There are lots of people in there that are political prisoners locked away for no good reason. The 21st hijacker - Zacarius Moussaoui - is a case in point. He had nothing to do with 9/11 yet during an early turf war between government departments vying for the money that went with The War Against Terror he got pretty much framed. He had over-stayed his visa and done nothing of harm to anyone, yet someone had to be scape-goated by the State Department. There are plenty more 'suspected al-qaeda' locked away there, with conditions every bit as bad as Guantanamo, yet locked up purely so that once upon a time a President could have some orange terror alert pushing everything else out of the news headlines for a couple of days. Sure there are the psychos that tried to kill prison staff elsewhere in the system that get the SuperMAX treatment, however, the Florence facility is too much like the Tower of London dungeons as used in medieval times.

bpodgursky 13y ago
Just to save everyone else the time I spent reading wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zacarias_Moussaoui), there is no question that Zacarius: (1) knew about the plans for 9/11, although he wasn't selected to participate in that attack (2) was planning a separate attack via plane on the white house, but was arrested first (3) was taking flying classes to prepare for that attack This is tangental to the quite valid original article, but claiming that Zacarus was "framed" is an enormous distortion of the facts.
- Theodores 13y ago
  Here is another Wikipedia article for your enjoyment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hubert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hubert Given how quickly you responded to my original post and given that you responded with a link to a Wikipedia article to which you bullet-pointed-out your mere opinions, I suggest you think before you post on subjects that you have no knowledge of.
  - hueving 13y ago

BadassFractal 13y ago

Are there any studies on whether advanced meditation skills can somehow reduce the effects of solitary?

prestadige 13y ago
Ironic, isn't it, that solitary is a severe punishment in one context but is also part of the traditional means (going off to a lonely cave for a few years) of obtaining enlightenment?
- agumonkey 13y ago
  I mentioned that in another comment. Being you're own decision might be the whole difference between meditation and torture. My 2cts question.
- wyager 13y ago
  I imagine that psychologically, the difference between solitary meditation and solitary confinement is like the difference between sex and rape, or taking drugs and being drugged. They're procedurally similar acts, but the element of choice changes everything.
- ljf 13y ago
  Being a cave to meditate is a very different thing. There you are free to leave at any time, but you are trying to aquire mastery and control of your body and mind, in the face of your desire to do otherwise. I think solitary is rather different.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

dimitar 13y ago

The point of jails should be to isolate dangerous people from potential victims, not punish anyone. I can imagine no reason to isolate a person to the point of literally locking him or her in a cage. At least provide TV or radio, there is literally no place on earth where this is prohibitively expensive.

noonespecial 13y ago
These things are generally available through special companies that have special contracts and and of course get to sell them to inmates at "special" prices. The ultimate "captive" market. http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2014/01/the-ipod-of-prison-sony-radio.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2014/01/the-i...

refurb 13y ago

I guess the question is, if you get rid of solitary confinement, what do you do with the prisoners who are threats to other prisoners?

thret 13y ago
Capital punishment?
DonGateley 13y ago
Secure confinement to eliminate the danger a prisoner might present to another need not require social and sensory isolation. That is purely punitive and futile at best, contributory at worst.
- refurb 13y ago
  I don't disagree on the sensory isolation, but I think one of the reasons for social isolation is problem inmates who antagonize and provoke other inmates. Sure you could physically isolate inmates, but allow them to communicate, but that would be like keeping two roosters together separated by chicken wire; they'd be at each other constantly with verbal threats, etc. Doesn't sound that much better.

Osiris 13y ago

Here in Denver there has been some debate about this issue [1]. The new prison chief put himself in solitary to try to understand how inmates feel. "Rick Raemisch says he suffered mental anguish after spending only 20 hours in solitary confinement. The average in Colorado is 23 months." [1] http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/colorado-prison-chief-rick-raemisch-spends-a-day-in-solitary-confinement http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/colorado-pri...

ljf 13y ago
While it seems extreme, I'd love to see more public officals put them selves up for similar 'stunts': spend time in a prison, live on minimum wage, use a bicycle for your daily commute, be tazered, experience waterboarding. When people can speak with knowledge about some of the horrors and dangers that we put our populations in, then I'd feel a lot more comfortable, and trust them to be more engaged.
- grkvlt 13y ago
  > spend time in a prison, live on minimum wage, use a bicycle for your daily commute, be tazered, experience water boarding One of these things is not like the others...
  - ljf 13y ago
    True, the levels of horror are mixed here, but the crying was something that hit me this morning. If more of out politicians, public servants and even taxi and bus drivers cycled a few days each year, I'm sure the roads in Britain would be a very different place. Similarly I'd love to see people experience some of the pain and danger they seem willing to put others in. The cycling comment was flippant (and my personal bugbear) but I think it is part of a whole spectrum of engagement and understanding that we should expect from those that want to and chose to run and operate the mechanics of our countries.
    - sedev 13y ago
      In America, there's a very annoyingly direct correlation between "cities with good public transit" and "cities whose administrators use public transit routinely." So that argues in favor of your point. I wish it could simply be taken for granted that people who don't ride on public transit will do a worse job of overseeing it than people who do.

nitrogen 13y ago

Do the effects of solitary confinement differ for self-described introverts? Obviously unwanted, involuntary confinement will be unpleasant no matter what, but I wonder if those at the extreme who would voluntarily isolate themselves from the world for days at a time would experience the same effects as those who thrive on human contact.

zacinbusiness 13y ago

I have very mixed feelings about this kind of thing. There are thousands of people that are basically in jail simply because they aren't white. Or who have ridiculous sentences because the judge wanted to make an example of them. But then there are people who would beat you within an inch of your life, or flat out kill you, just because you "disrespect" them. A good friend of mine was a prison psychologist for 20 years and he has some truly chilling stories. So, while I hate the idea of exiling someone for life or even for a few weeks...it feels like there are precious few alternatives in some cases.

aragot 13y ago
> flat out kill you This is just speculation. You don't know what they would do if you gave them a chance, a second chance, a third chance, lots of love and a few material means. As a proof, incarceration rate is lower in my country [1] and we have less violence on the street. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcerat...