7 ms·

I suggest another option: wait to see what it's like.

by pg 13y ago

ryannevius 13y ago
...is YC open to reverting to the current system if/when it doesn't work out?
- wcummings 13y ago
  By what metric do we determine if it "works out"?
- pg 13y ago
  Of course. We'd be pretty stupid not to revert something that wasn't working. Plus in any case if you tweak parameters like the number of endorsements a comment needs and how much karma you need to endorse, you can approach current HN as closely as you want.
  - dperfect 13y ago
    I'd venture to guess that the difference between a requirement of just 1 endorsement from users with karma >= 1 and the current HN is fairly significant (a downvote differs conceptually from a nonexistent endorsement), so you may not be able to approach it too closely. I suppose only time will tell though.
    - rahimnathwani 13y ago
      This reminds me of the 'penny gap problem': that the steep drop-off in users from raising the price from zero to a penny is much larger than the (much smoother) drop from further price increases.
    - omegaham 13y ago
      This is an excellent observation. It takes effort to downvote someone; it takes zero effort to ignore a pending post that doesn't meet whatever your standard is for endorsement. Basically, it turns the system on its head; it's no longer "Bad posts will be removed," it's "Your posts will automatically be removed unless someone decides that they are good." I'm actually really optimistic about this change; it will force people to be more civil if they actually want to participate. However, it will only work if lots of people are willing to put in the effort of endorsing quality posts.
krapp 13y ago
And then complain? Alright, that seems fair. Edit: rabble rabble.
catshirt 13y ago
i'm not sure i want to invest time shouting into an empty void with a chance someone will hear me to see what it's like. for what it's worth, i hated the removal of the comment scores too and i'm still here.
chrismonsanto 13y ago
This is my favorite option. That being said, I think people are especially worried that if it's a bad change, it won't be reverted or tinkered with in a timely manner. HN has a (deserved, I think...) reputation for being unresponsive to user feedback.
- rkuykendall-com 13y ago
  Some people might be worried that, if it's a bad change, it won't be reverted because nobody will be able to read their complaints. This is one of the few cases where the worse a change is, the less of a voice you will have after it happens. I'm not saying it will be bad, but you can see why that would be frightening.
  - derefr 13y ago
    The "karma elite" will be able to read their complaints. Usefully, the people with the ability to revert the change are a strict subset of the karma elite.
    - dmoo 13y ago
      Is there any information on how spread out geographically the "karma elite" is. If it's very US centric then users in other time zones may suffer most in terms of pending delays.
- hobs 13y ago
  While that is true, I think most of the time people think they know what they want, and then when they get what they asked for, it can be fairly shitty. As I see it, trying something, even for an extended period while it totally fails, means that pg et all want to improve the level of commentary as they have seen it decline, and are taking steps to do what they can to improve it. I don't think any community has gotten it right so far, and I am willing to surf it out, even if it means my ability to comment is curtailed a bit. I was first attracted to HN not for the stories, though they are good, but for the extremely good commentary from people who know what they are talking about.
film42 13y ago
I think the community is just nervous, but I'm willing to give it a shot (as a sub 1000 karma-er). I do feel the heaviness of the new comment system though; and I understand the uneasiness of those commenting--kind of like swapping files in production. I think it would be great to have some sort of "Beta HN" where whoever is taking over HN could try out all sorts of new features before they become adopted into the main HN site.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
dummyAcc988 13y ago
Have you considered that bad content breeds bad discussion? Some subreddits have evolved to deal with content marketing shills, a plague on HN, by demanding submitters have no relationship to the content they submit. I think this would go a long way to restoring a healthier commenting environment. I also think you should consider taking HN with you as you step back. YC are not appropriately positioned to deal with this problem because 1/2 the startups exploiting HN are YC and the other 1/2 are copying them.
ilaksh 13y ago
Sir, I certainly hope this will not be taken as being overly critical. However the change as I understand it will mean that if a new user writes a single comment that is unpopular or simply gets missed, he will forever be banned from commenting again. This is unworkable because it will mean many people will be banned just by virtue of their comment being missed, or by making a mistake and saying something that isn't appreciated by whatever senior members happen upon it.
- mfjordvald 13y ago
  That's not entirely so. The user will have the option of deleting his pending comment and submitting something new. It does mean he can only participate in one discussion at a time, though, provided his comment isn't endorsed immediately.
- derefr 13y ago
  The previous thread said that pending comments will expire after 24 hours of non-acceptance (releasing their lock), and can also be deleted at any time while in the pending state (which also releases the lock.)
- deletes 13y ago
  Your information is incorrect. The pending comments will be removed after a certain time and the user will be able to comment again. You can also delete the comment in a certain time period. There were also some suggestions about restrictions of the single comment.
- jasonlotito 13y ago
  While I don't speak for others who will moderate, there is a difference between being unpopular and being a poor comment. I have no issue encouraging good content that I disagree with. However, all too often people confuse having an unpopular opinion and being rude. They'll get down voted because they are not being civil, and they also happen to have an unpopular opinion. They will then point to that comment and claim they are being silenced by the majority (they will do this in another comment, which will also get down voted for good reason).
- 13y ago
jonesetc 13y ago
Even if it's just a test, it seems a reasonable scenario that just the test will cause permanent damage. I understand trying to promote better discussion, but this system is downright unwelcoming to any newcomers. When I registered to comment I thought the downvote restrictions were odd and I was willing to try it out, but if this was in place I'd have closed the tab and never come back. Maybe subject-matter experts wouldn't be so put off, but novices and students like myself would feel shunned. That's not saying I'm the most valuable poster, but I am far from a troll and I contribute real opinions and questions. I think lesser experienced posters like myself are important. I also fear that this may fail silently with an echo chamber as a result. I think this is a real concern here. Unless there is a great amount of monitoring on those posts that don't make it through, none of the automatic posters may even miss the ones who never get a voice. That doesn't make it a positive change though. I hope you reconsider this change, A concerned member of this community
- jfoster 13y ago
  Can you elaborate on how a test might cause permanent damage? Keep in mind that it should be clear whether significant damage is occurring quite soon after it rolls out. (Eg. Whether comments are getting approved, rate of comments, etc.)
  - jonesetc 13y ago
    I meant it to go along with the rest of the paragraph. I think you'll see people turn around at the door with this policy. I would have.
    - jfoster 13y ago
      That's certainly a possibility. It would show up in HN's metrics. (perhaps not visible to you and I, though) On the other hand, you might also see more people coming in the door. What if this makes conversation on HN so much better that more people want to get involved? The one thing that is certain with the new system is that if your comments are abusive, they will probably not get endorsed. Perhaps at first they will (protesting 1k+ karma users) but eventually anyone who is endorsing poor quality comments would likely lose the ability to endorse. At a minimum, I think this a really interesting experiment.
protomyth 13y ago
I guess I'm just worried that I will go to the front page and see two or more interesting stories I want to comment on and know I will only be able to pick one. I comment in bursts during breaks. I will also probably not comment on stories on the new page because it will be iffy on them getting the attention needed to not block me for a long time.
koko775 13y ago
I suggest option 4: mimic Slashdot's moderation and meta-moderation system, which addressed comment quality issues in a flexible yet clear way.
bambax 13y ago
That sounds reasonable and yet isn't always good advice; you don't throw yourself out the window and "wait to see what it's like". I fail to see the problem with the current system / current comments; bad comments usually drown at the bottom of the page and that's that. What would be the point of preventing noobs from commenting? What's with this love of aristocracy? "We were here first!!" So what? (I have 4k+ "karma" and my account is more than 2k days old but that does not make me special in any way, shape or form. If anything, it probably means I have already said all I ever had to say and should be shot in the head to make room for the young!! ;-) But in this supposedly "democratic" system we're not given any choice so I guess we simply have to take it...
tripzilch 13y ago
You mean like we tried and waited to see what it's like to have invisible comments? You even held a poll[0], the outcome of which was the majority didn't like it, but you left everything as it was anyway. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2595605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2595605

I suggest another option: wait to see what it's like.

by pg 13y ago

I suggest another option: wait to see what it's like.

ryannevius 13y ago

...is YC open to reverting to the current system if/when it doesn't work out?

wcummings 13y ago
By what metric do we determine if it "works out"?
pg 13y ago
Of course. We'd be pretty stupid not to revert something that wasn't working. Plus in any case if you tweak parameters like the number of endorsements a comment needs and how much karma you need to endorse, you can approach current HN as closely as you want.
- dperfect 13y ago
  I'd venture to guess that the difference between a requirement of just 1 endorsement from users with karma >= 1 and the current HN is fairly significant (a downvote differs conceptually from a nonexistent endorsement), so you may not be able to approach it too closely. I suppose only time will tell though.
  - rahimnathwani 13y ago
    This reminds me of the 'penny gap problem': that the steep drop-off in users from raising the price from zero to a penny is much larger than the (much smoother) drop from further price increases.
  - omegaham 13y ago
    This is an excellent observation. It takes effort to downvote someone; it takes zero effort to ignore a pending post that doesn't meet whatever your standard is for endorsement. Basically, it turns the system on its head; it's no longer "Bad posts will be removed," it's "Your posts will automatically be removed unless someone decides that they are good." I'm actually really optimistic about this change; it will force people to be more civil if they actually want to participate. However, it will only work if lots of people are willing to put in the effort of endorsing quality posts.

krapp 13y ago

And then complain? Alright, that seems fair. Edit: rabble rabble.

catshirt 13y ago

i'm not sure i want to invest time shouting into an empty void with a chance someone will hear me to see what it's like. for what it's worth, i hated the removal of the comment scores too and i'm still here.

chrismonsanto 13y ago

This is my favorite option. That being said, I think people are especially worried that if it's a bad change, it won't be reverted or tinkered with in a timely manner. HN has a (deserved, I think...) reputation for being unresponsive to user feedback.

rkuykendall-com 13y ago
Some people might be worried that, if it's a bad change, it won't be reverted because nobody will be able to read their complaints. This is one of the few cases where the worse a change is, the less of a voice you will have after it happens. I'm not saying it will be bad, but you can see why that would be frightening.
- derefr 13y ago
  The "karma elite" will be able to read their complaints. Usefully, the people with the ability to revert the change are a strict subset of the karma elite.
  - dmoo 13y ago
    Is there any information on how spread out geographically the "karma elite" is. If it's very US centric then users in other time zones may suffer most in terms of pending delays.
hobs 13y ago
While that is true, I think most of the time people think they know what they want, and then when they get what they asked for, it can be fairly shitty. As I see it, trying something, even for an extended period while it totally fails, means that pg et all want to improve the level of commentary as they have seen it decline, and are taking steps to do what they can to improve it. I don't think any community has gotten it right so far, and I am willing to surf it out, even if it means my ability to comment is curtailed a bit. I was first attracted to HN not for the stories, though they are good, but for the extremely good commentary from people who know what they are talking about.

film42 13y ago

I think the community is just nervous, but I'm willing to give it a shot (as a sub 1000 karma-er). I do feel the heaviness of the new comment system though; and I understand the uneasiness of those commenting--kind of like swapping files in production. I think it would be great to have some sort of "Beta HN" where whoever is taking over HN could try out all sorts of new features before they become adopted into the main HN site.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

dummyAcc988 13y ago

Have you considered that bad content breeds bad discussion? Some subreddits have evolved to deal with content marketing shills, a plague on HN, by demanding submitters have no relationship to the content they submit. I think this would go a long way to restoring a healthier commenting environment. I also think you should consider taking HN with you as you step back. YC are not appropriately positioned to deal with this problem because 1/2 the startups exploiting HN are YC and the other 1/2 are copying them.

ilaksh 13y ago

Sir, I certainly hope this will not be taken as being overly critical. However the change as I understand it will mean that if a new user writes a single comment that is unpopular or simply gets missed, he will forever be banned from commenting again. This is unworkable because it will mean many people will be banned just by virtue of their comment being missed, or by making a mistake and saying something that isn't appreciated by whatever senior members happen upon it.

mfjordvald 13y ago
That's not entirely so. The user will have the option of deleting his pending comment and submitting something new. It does mean he can only participate in one discussion at a time, though, provided his comment isn't endorsed immediately.
derefr 13y ago
The previous thread said that pending comments will expire after 24 hours of non-acceptance (releasing their lock), and can also be deleted at any time while in the pending state (which also releases the lock.)
deletes 13y ago
Your information is incorrect. The pending comments will be removed after a certain time and the user will be able to comment again. You can also delete the comment in a certain time period. There were also some suggestions about restrictions of the single comment.
jasonlotito 13y ago
While I don't speak for others who will moderate, there is a difference between being unpopular and being a poor comment. I have no issue encouraging good content that I disagree with. However, all too often people confuse having an unpopular opinion and being rude. They'll get down voted because they are not being civil, and they also happen to have an unpopular opinion. They will then point to that comment and claim they are being silenced by the majority (they will do this in another comment, which will also get down voted for good reason).
13y ago

jonesetc 13y ago

Even if it's just a test, it seems a reasonable scenario that just the test will cause permanent damage. I understand trying to promote better discussion, but this system is downright unwelcoming to any newcomers. When I registered to comment I thought the downvote restrictions were odd and I was willing to try it out, but if this was in place I'd have closed the tab and never come back. Maybe subject-matter experts wouldn't be so put off, but novices and students like myself would feel shunned. That's not saying I'm the most valuable poster, but I am far from a troll and I contribute real opinions and questions. I think lesser experienced posters like myself are important. I also fear that this may fail silently with an echo chamber as a result. I think this is a real concern here. Unless there is a great amount of monitoring on those posts that don't make it through, none of the automatic posters may even miss the ones who never get a voice. That doesn't make it a positive change though. I hope you reconsider this change, A concerned member of this community

jfoster 13y ago
Can you elaborate on how a test might cause permanent damage? Keep in mind that it should be clear whether significant damage is occurring quite soon after it rolls out. (Eg. Whether comments are getting approved, rate of comments, etc.)
- jonesetc 13y ago
  I meant it to go along with the rest of the paragraph. I think you'll see people turn around at the door with this policy. I would have.
  - jfoster 13y ago
    That's certainly a possibility. It would show up in HN's metrics. (perhaps not visible to you and I, though) On the other hand, you might also see more people coming in the door. What if this makes conversation on HN so much better that more people want to get involved? The one thing that is certain with the new system is that if your comments are abusive, they will probably not get endorsed. Perhaps at first they will (protesting 1k+ karma users) but eventually anyone who is endorsing poor quality comments would likely lose the ability to endorse. At a minimum, I think this a really interesting experiment.

protomyth 13y ago

I guess I'm just worried that I will go to the front page and see two or more interesting stories I want to comment on and know I will only be able to pick one. I comment in bursts during breaks. I will also probably not comment on stories on the new page because it will be iffy on them getting the attention needed to not block me for a long time.

koko775 13y ago

I suggest option 4: mimic Slashdot's moderation and meta-moderation system, which addressed comment quality issues in a flexible yet clear way.

bambax 13y ago

That sounds reasonable and yet isn't always good advice; you don't throw yourself out the window and "wait to see what it's like". I fail to see the problem with the current system / current comments; bad comments usually drown at the bottom of the page and that's that. What would be the point of preventing noobs from commenting? What's with this love of aristocracy? "We were here first!!" So what? (I have 4k+ "karma" and my account is more than 2k days old but that does not make me special in any way, shape or form. If anything, it probably means I have already said all I ever had to say and should be shot in the head to make room for the young!! ;-) But in this supposedly "democratic" system we're not given any choice so I guess we simply have to take it...

tripzilch 13y ago

You mean like we tried and waited to see what it's like to have invisible comments? You even held a poll[0], the outcome of which was the majority didn't like it, but you left everything as it was anyway. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2595605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2595605