6 ms·

Before anyone else comments that hasn't read the full article, here is the very end: Legally, Microsoft appears to be protected by its privacy policies. The po

by 300bps 13y ago

Before anyone else comments that hasn't read the full article, here is the very end: Legally, Microsoft appears to be protected by its privacy policies. The policy for Outlook.com, formerly Hotmail, states that, "We may access information about you, including the content of your communications...to protect the rights or property of Microsoft." This is the agreement that every user agreed to when they signed up for Hotmail or Outlook. It's not carte blanche for Microsoft to go through your email, but it seems to allow them to do it for a very particular purpose.

6cxs2hd6 13y ago
I did not see similar language in Google's ToS or Privacy Policy: https://mail.google.com/mail/help/intl/en/terms.html https://mail.google.com/mail/help/intl/en/terms.html However I read very quickly so please correct me if I'm wrong.
- nivla 13y ago
  This bit maybe? We will share personal information with companies, organizations or individuals outside of Google if we have a good-faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of the information is reasonably necessary to: ... protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google ,our users or the public as required or permitted by law. [1] http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/ http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/
apercu 13y ago
It's difficult to fault a company for parsing its own servers to stop corporate espionage against itself.
- waps 13y ago
  It isn't. Especially not when they did this first : http://www.ibtimes.com/microsoft-rips-email-snooping-google-outlook-any-more-private-gmail-1094118 http://www.ibtimes.com/microsoft-rips-email-snooping-google-...
  - ntakasaki 13y ago
    From your own link >“Outlook.com does not go through the contents of your sent and received email messages in order to display targeted ads. ... Outlook.com does not go through the contents of your incoming email from other email service for the purpose of targeting ads. ... Outlook.com does not go through the contents of your entire inbox for the purpose of targeting ads.” Google does all of the above, are you claiming there is no difference between the two services? The new lawsuit against Google for building profiles of children using its free Google Apps for Education service has even more info: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/17/google-data-mining-students_n_4980422.html?ir=Technology http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/17/google-data-mining-... >A Google spokeswoman confirmed to Education Week that the company “scans and indexes” the emails of all Apps for Education users for a variety of purposes, including potential advertising, via automated processes that cannot be turned off--even for Apps for Education customers who elect not to receive ads.
    - Dylan16807 13y ago
      The problem is they criticize google while doing something far more invasive than letting robots look for keywords.
      - fleitz 13y ago
        Google has the exact same wording in their EULA: http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/ http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/ "protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google, our users or the public as required or permitted by law."
        Dylan16807 13y ago
        Well that's bad of google but doesn't improve microsoft's argument. If anything they becomes more hypocritical because "why isn't microsoft criticizing that part....oh"
        13y ago
Glyptodon 13y ago
Do they have a similar agreement in the Windows EULA? Because that would scare me.
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  If you somehow knows what version of the Windows EULA applies to your installation (that's not easy), you should go read it.
  - DaveMebs 13y ago
    Please don't spread FUD. I've never tried to find the EULA before, but it appears to be pretty simple. 1) Go to www.microsoft.com 2) Search "windows 8 eula" (http://search.microsoft.com/en-us/results.aspx?form=MSHOME&mkt=en-us&setlang=en-us&q=windows%208%20eula http://search.microsoft.com/en-us/results.aspx?form=MSHOME&m...) 3) Click the top link to download the EULA Same thing worked when I tried "windows 7 eula" (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/search/results.aspx?form=MSHOME&mkt=en-us&setlang=en-us&q=windows%207%20eula http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/search/results.aspx?form=MSHO...) These are also top results when I try the same query on Google. Did you even try to find it?
- bananas 13y ago
  The Windows EULA is quite scary in many places however the worst thing is the dev tools EULAs.
  - akadien 13y ago
    How is the dev EULA scary? Don't leave us hanging.
    - jasomill 13y ago
      The only potentially troubling thing I could find in the VS 2013 EULA relating to privacy is that Microsoft automatically collects information identifying your installed Microsoft product, the operating system of the device, the CPU architecture of the operating system and data regarding the success or failure of the installation of the software, data identifying the cause of a crash in the product and information about the product license which is in use. . . . . Microsoft may use the computer and services information to improve its software and services. Microsoft may also share it with others, such as hardware and software vendors. They may use the information to improve how their products run with Microsoft software. In principle, this could be interpreted quite broadly ("selling detailed information about our installed base to third-party marketing software firms helps us pay for improvements to our software").
brownbat 13y ago
Maybe. The carte is as blanche as there are ways to interpret "protection of Microsoft's rights or property." Microsoft has, for example, the right to petition government without fear of reprisal. It could protect this right if Microsoft were to review any email accounts of lawmakers or regulators to ensure that they never express any animus against Microsoft based on past filings or appeals. Microsoft may wish to protect its property by scanning every hotmail account for discussions of havens for illicit software, like torrents or newsgroups, trying to determine exactly what each user has downloaded and when. Extreme examples are just for illustration. I don't think Microsoft will jump on those as next steps. But if the question is, "Could these user agreements justify things that would make us a little uncomfortable?" I think the answer is probably yes. Are we there just yet? Maybe, maybe not.
loup-vaillant 13y ago
> This is the agreement that every user agreed to when they signed up for Hotmail or Outlook. No they didn't. Over 99% of them clicked through without reading. Some of them suspected Microsoft might one day read their email, but somehow shrugged it off, then forgot about it. If people were truly informed, most would not give consent. Make no mistake: using a hotmail or gmail account means giving away a good chunk of your private correspondence. It also affects whoever you're communicating with, even if they have their own private mail server. We need those Freedom Boxes. Fast.
- DannyBee 13y ago
  "If people were truly informed, most would not give consent. " I strongly disagree. Most would bitch about it, then do it anyway, knowing it may be a shitty deal for them. That is consent.
  - loup-vaillant 13y ago
    In the current situation, sure. Because we don't have real alternatives. (I maintain my own web server, but that's impossible for most users.) But if people were informed, that would create a market for privacy.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      > But if people were informed, that would create a market for privacy. If people really cared, then that market would exist today. "Get your $5/mo. much more private email from privateemail.com!!". This notional private email provider would be able to advertise Outlook.com, GMail, etc.'s privacy policies independently of those email providers to ensure that "click through" isn't the only reason people are unaware.
      - teacup50 13y ago
        I care, but there's no way for me to state that I do not want my correspondence shared with Google/Microsoft ... so the people who don't care continue to drag the rest of us into the void.
AJ72 13y ago
It would be interesting to see if Microsoft has or will disclose how often it has leveraged this clause to tap into its customers' personal emails 'to protect the rights or property of Microsoft'. It may be a bigger number that we think

by 300bps 13y ago

6cxs2hd6 13y ago

I did not see similar language in Google's ToS or Privacy Policy: https://mail.google.com/mail/help/intl/en/terms.html https://mail.google.com/mail/help/intl/en/terms.html However I read very quickly so please correct me if I'm wrong.

nivla 13y ago
This bit maybe? We will share personal information with companies, organizations or individuals outside of Google if we have a good-faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of the information is reasonably necessary to: ... protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google ,our users or the public as required or permitted by law. [1] http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/ http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/

apercu 13y ago

It's difficult to fault a company for parsing its own servers to stop corporate espionage against itself.

waps 13y ago
It isn't. Especially not when they did this first : http://www.ibtimes.com/microsoft-rips-email-snooping-google-outlook-any-more-private-gmail-1094118 http://www.ibtimes.com/microsoft-rips-email-snooping-google-...
- ntakasaki 13y ago
  From your own link >“Outlook.com does not go through the contents of your sent and received email messages in order to display targeted ads. ... Outlook.com does not go through the contents of your incoming email from other email service for the purpose of targeting ads. ... Outlook.com does not go through the contents of your entire inbox for the purpose of targeting ads.” Google does all of the above, are you claiming there is no difference between the two services? The new lawsuit against Google for building profiles of children using its free Google Apps for Education service has even more info: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/17/google-data-mining-students_n_4980422.html?ir=Technology http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/17/google-data-mining-... >A Google spokeswoman confirmed to Education Week that the company “scans and indexes” the emails of all Apps for Education users for a variety of purposes, including potential advertising, via automated processes that cannot be turned off--even for Apps for Education customers who elect not to receive ads.
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    The problem is they criticize google while doing something far more invasive than letting robots look for keywords.
    - fleitz 13y ago
      Google has the exact same wording in their EULA: http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/ http://www.google.com/intl/en/policies/privacy/ "protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google, our users or the public as required or permitted by law."
      - Dylan16807 13y ago
        Well that's bad of google but doesn't improve microsoft's argument. If anything they becomes more hypocritical because "why isn't microsoft criticizing that part....oh"
        13y ago

Glyptodon 13y ago

Do they have a similar agreement in the Windows EULA? Because that would scare me.

marcosdumay 13y ago
If you somehow knows what version of the Windows EULA applies to your installation (that's not easy), you should go read it.
- DaveMebs 13y ago
  Please don't spread FUD. I've never tried to find the EULA before, but it appears to be pretty simple. 1) Go to www.microsoft.com 2) Search "windows 8 eula" (http://search.microsoft.com/en-us/results.aspx?form=MSHOME&mkt=en-us&setlang=en-us&q=windows%208%20eula http://search.microsoft.com/en-us/results.aspx?form=MSHOME&m...) 3) Click the top link to download the EULA Same thing worked when I tried "windows 7 eula" (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/search/results.aspx?form=MSHOME&mkt=en-us&setlang=en-us&q=windows%207%20eula http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/search/results.aspx?form=MSHO...) These are also top results when I try the same query on Google. Did you even try to find it?
bananas 13y ago
The Windows EULA is quite scary in many places however the worst thing is the dev tools EULAs.
- akadien 13y ago
  How is the dev EULA scary? Don't leave us hanging.
  - jasomill 13y ago
    The only potentially troubling thing I could find in the VS 2013 EULA relating to privacy is that Microsoft automatically collects information identifying your installed Microsoft product, the operating system of the device, the CPU architecture of the operating system and data regarding the success or failure of the installation of the software, data identifying the cause of a crash in the product and information about the product license which is in use. . . . . Microsoft may use the computer and services information to improve its software and services. Microsoft may also share it with others, such as hardware and software vendors. They may use the information to improve how their products run with Microsoft software. In principle, this could be interpreted quite broadly ("selling detailed information about our installed base to third-party marketing software firms helps us pay for improvements to our software").

brownbat 13y ago

Maybe. The carte is as blanche as there are ways to interpret "protection of Microsoft's rights or property." Microsoft has, for example, the right to petition government without fear of reprisal. It could protect this right if Microsoft were to review any email accounts of lawmakers or regulators to ensure that they never express any animus against Microsoft based on past filings or appeals. Microsoft may wish to protect its property by scanning every hotmail account for discussions of havens for illicit software, like torrents or newsgroups, trying to determine exactly what each user has downloaded and when. Extreme examples are just for illustration. I don't think Microsoft will jump on those as next steps. But if the question is, "Could these user agreements justify things that would make us a little uncomfortable?" I think the answer is probably yes. Are we there just yet? Maybe, maybe not.

loup-vaillant 13y ago

> This is the agreement that every user agreed to when they signed up for Hotmail or Outlook. No they didn't. Over 99% of them clicked through without reading. Some of them suspected Microsoft might one day read their email, but somehow shrugged it off, then forgot about it. If people were truly informed, most would not give consent. Make no mistake: using a hotmail or gmail account means giving away a good chunk of your private correspondence. It also affects whoever you're communicating with, even if they have their own private mail server. We need those Freedom Boxes. Fast.

DannyBee 13y ago
"If people were truly informed, most would not give consent. " I strongly disagree. Most would bitch about it, then do it anyway, knowing it may be a shitty deal for them. That is consent.
- loup-vaillant 13y ago
  In the current situation, sure. Because we don't have real alternatives. (I maintain my own web server, but that's impossible for most users.) But if people were informed, that would create a market for privacy.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    > But if people were informed, that would create a market for privacy. If people really cared, then that market would exist today. "Get your $5/mo. much more private email from privateemail.com!!". This notional private email provider would be able to advertise Outlook.com, GMail, etc.'s privacy policies independently of those email providers to ensure that "click through" isn't the only reason people are unaware.
    - teacup50 13y ago
      I care, but there's no way for me to state that I do not want my correspondence shared with Google/Microsoft ... so the people who don't care continue to drag the rest of us into the void.

AJ72 13y ago

It would be interesting to see if Microsoft has or will disclose how often it has leveraged this clause to tap into its customers' personal emails 'to protect the rights or property of Microsoft'. It may be a bigger number that we think