23 ms·

What if you didn't need money or attention?

• a3voices 13y ago
  You would probably spend your time writing blog posts criticizing other successful people [1], or invading small peninsulas like Crimea. [1] http://blog.pmarca.com/2014/03/18/when-carl-icahn-ran-a-company-the-story-of-twa/ http://blog.pmarca.com/2014/03/18/when-carl-icahn-ran-a-comp...
• janj 13y ago
  I just finished a book about a man who has been living without money for over 10 years titled "The Man Who Quit Money". It's a different perspective on not needing money. Instead of having plenty of money this book is about a man who doesn't need any money at all because he chooses not to need money, he lives outside of the money system. The title of this post seems to include men like Suelo, the subject of the book, but the content of the post seems to exclude people like this as it focuses on having more than enough money instead of not needing money. The book does a great job describing the evolution of this man's philosophy on living outside of the money system and what it has done for him. If at all interested I highly recommend it. Instead of trying to accumulate so much money you can't imagine needing more a healthy alternative might be to focus on reducing your need for money.
  • enraged_camel 13y ago
    I was curious, so I looked it up on Amazon. This is an excerpt of the book description: The Man Who Quit Money is an account of how one man learned to live, sanely and happily, without earning, receiving, or spending a single cent. Suelo doesn't pay taxes, or accept food stamps or welfare. He lives in caves in the Utah canyonlands, forages wild foods and gourmet discards. He no longer even carries an I.D. Yet he manages to amply fulfill not only the basic human needs-for shelter, food, and warmth-but, to an enviable degree, the universal desires for companionship, purpose, and spiritual engagement. How did he find companionship in the Utah canyonlands? Does he have a girlfriend who shares the same lifestyle? Or is this more of a "the trees and animals are his friends" sort of thing?
    • janj 13y ago
      He has a very active blog which he is posting to and replying to comments most days. He does volunteer work and other work in exchange for food or other provisions. I think he still travels frequently staying with people who offer room. He has a family that he's described as being very close to. He has spent time with people who share his views but I don't know about his current situation. He is gay so if he is in an intimate relationship it is probably with a man. I think he might have a more active social life than myself.
    • gibbonsd1 13y ago
      This may not answer your entire question, but in the first pages of the book preview on Amazon: "He does not panhandle, and he often works--declining payment for his efforts." Also: "And although he lives in a cave, he is not a hermit: he is relentlessly social, remains close with friends and family, and engages in discussions with strangers via the website he maintains from the public library."
    • hueving 13y ago
      It doesn't seem like this lifestyle is fundamentally sustainable for society (foraging does not scale). With something that will not work if everyone does it, is it really worth idolizing?
      • janj 13y ago
        The book does talk about how this lifestyle is available only because of the consumerist lifestyle that dominates this country and the paradox this seems to present. The thing is there's an entire spectrum between how this man lives and the consumer lifestyle that is now the norm in this country. There's no ned to idolize his lifestyle, it's more about being aware of your needs and what makes you happy or keeps you at peace and consciously choosing your place along that spectrum. The author describes his views on this kind of self reflection and I found it very comforting because it seemed to closely align with the lifestyle I would like to adhere to. It's not the extreme Suelo has chosen but I believe it's closer to that end than what I think is typical in this country. Check out the book, it's an easy and enjoyable read. I'd send you my copy but I really want my wife to read it.
  • stephp 13y ago
    There are several of these people/stories out there. All still use some kind of currency, though. Usually favors, or they trade physical things. What's wrong with a paycheck when you're doing work that solves a problem? It's still a system of mutually-beneficial trade, yet it's seen as less noble. Why is that?
  • wellboy 13y ago
    Well it's all about the options one has right? I personally am looking to be able as much as a person can do. If you chose to not live with money, you can be happy, but you are only very very restricted in what you do. You can live in the woods for sure, but you will never be able to have a family except they all want to live in the woods, you will never be able to give you child an education if it wants to, you'll never be able to be a scientist again, nor solving problems for other people, you can only solve problems for yourself. For me personally, that's not something to strive for.
• conductr 13y ago
  Impossible to answer this honestly until you've reached that point. More than likely you will discover a passion for something that currently does not exist in your life. Life is never ending learning, including who you are today and how you are different than yesterday.
  • sivers 13y ago
    I have reached that point, and it's still impossible to answer. :-)
    • saganus 13y ago
      Then perhaps you need to do some more soul-searching? Not saying it's a bad thing that you have reached this point and haven't figured "the answer" yet, but I'm pretty sure "the answer" is probably somewhere inside of you. I have not reached that point.. yet (I hope I will, rather sooner than later), but supposing I did reached that point, let's say, yesterday, oh boy, there are soooo many things that I would love to be doing. For instance, after maybe going on a shopping spree for all those things that I've always wanted (truly not that many or that extravagant), for example setting up a very nice NAS + Media Center for my house, getting a swimming pool maybe, a laptop upgrade (mine is past 7 years of daily use...) and maybe stuff for my girlfriend/wife, I would then spend a few months travelling (not the whole world mind you, maybe 4-5 2-month trips or so). But aside from inane things and materialistic desires... I would love to do a few things (besides spending time with family/friends) that would make up my "daily life", meaning I would like to do this as a form of retirement. - Study without worrying if I'm going to be able to maintain the scholarship for example. Just get a Physics degree and maybe a chemistry one. - Put an animal shelter and then replicate if successful, i.e. put a LOT of shelters throughout my country. - My most desired idea: To develop what I call an "Idea Lab", which is something I'm sure a lot of other people have thought of. What about using my bottomless bucket of money to fund really neat and cool ideas that a lot of normal folks have, and having a staff of engineers, mathematicians, and in general all types of scientists and makers, to make these ideas come to life. Ideas that should help other people like water purification tools/processes, clean energy generation, etc. I think those are the 3 things that would very easily consume my life if I had no need for money. I would love for example to donate to my college a building or two, computers, maybe pay lecture for really cool guys to inspire students, etc. In short, I do actually dream on becoming wealthy enough not to care about my survival so I could help others around me. First family and friends and then my immediate community. And finally, if I actually become like ultra-rich, I would just DIE to put my own space company and help, even if a tiny bit, to get humanity out of this planet and unto the stars. In that regard I think something like Carmack's Armadillo Aerospace would absolutely rock! But of course, like someone else mentioned before, that's what I say I will do in my hypothetically perfect world. But I like to think that I won't deviate much from the general idea.... of course only time will tell. PS: Now that I think of it, I would certainly look at putting libraries around my hometown for example. Real libraries (like with books and maybe even classrooms or something). What about putting some type of "online university", that's basically a building with the necessary tools to let people study coursers from Coursera and the like? and maybe even have "TA's" that would help you out if you got stuck. I think that could go a long way to help people bootstrap themselves out of poverty, like one other poster commented before. So no giving away free money, but the opportunity to make something for yourself. Which coming in from a third world country, let me tell you how satisfactory it is to see someone that had everything against them, succeed and be a happy person. ...and of course I would like a pony that shits rainbows... but like my dad likes to say "the cool thing about imagination is that it's free, so why dream small?"
• cottonseed 13y ago
  I've been thinking along these lines lately. I've never much cared for or been interested in attention. I'm totally comfortable with the fact I'm going to be forgotten. I've been very lucky and I don't have to worry much about money. I'm about to finish school. What do I do next? I basically have two answers: (1) Entertain myself. Learn things because I curious. Work on things because I think they're exciting or interesting, without worrying if they're useful or valuable. (2) Try to make socially valuable contributions. How do I best put my skills to work for others? Free software is one good model here. I've been trying to learn about the non-profit model. I'm very interested to hear other people's thoughts.
  • sillysaurus3 13y ago
    I've been very lucky and I don't have to worry much about money. I'm about to finish school. Very lucky. May I ask how?
    • cottonseed 13y ago
      Very lucky. A combination of things. I'm financially responsible and I don't want much. Startups. My partner is successful. Finishing school doesn't mean I'm 23. I decided to get a PhD in mathematics in my mid-30s. This is an example of (1).
      • sillysaurus3 13y ago
        As someone in almost the same position as you were in, may I ask a more personal question? Were you able to get into a prestigious school once you had money? I want to go not because I care about prestige or about connections, but simply because I want to find out what the experience is like, and know that I can stand with the best. I do online MIT classes for fun just to prove to myself that I can do it, but I never really had opportunity growing up, nor did I realize how much opportunity mattered. Now I'm concerned it's too late. I'd love to get your thoughts. Please feel free to shoot me an email if you have ideas about how I might pursue this.
  • malux85 13y ago
• tluyben2 13y ago
  OP is right in that you should at least do this experiment about the money as entrepreneur. If you had all the money in the world would you still be building what you are building? I have come to believe that if the answer is no that I am doing the wrong thing. Everything must at least be building toward what I think I need to do in life and that doesn't mean only making money to do them but activily working on it as well. It makes me very happy and I think it would do that to more people if they would follow that principle.
  • sivers 13y ago
    Yes! Exactly. People often ask me for feedback on their business ideas. Often, one of the first questions is, "Why are you doing this? Is this just for the money?" Usually you can tell when that's the case.
    • tluyben2 13y ago
      I guess I was lucky in that when I learned programming when I was 8, over 30 years ago, it created my path so to say and I seldom worked solely for the money as a result. The money was more or less a side effect of working towards my goal; actually, I would be a lot richer if I had picked money but I don't want to waste time so I had great opporunities pass be by in favour of being able to further my research. But even though my dreams are getting clearer; they started out vague and far away. That's not a bad thing; if it were clear it would've been done many times over already.
  • krohling 13y ago
    Suppose you know exactly what you would rather spend your time doing but simply don't have the resources. The reality is that many noble and often selfless pursuits require substantially more resources than the average person has access to. To use an example, suppose you're disgusted by homelessness and want to solve it. Realistically this is something that requires political influence and a large amount of money, not just to float yourself, as trying to solve this problem is unlikely to pay well, but also to develop solutions. So you say to yourself, I'm going to spend the next 5-10 years of my life trying to fill these gaps. Part of this plan may likely involve becoming a "successful" entrepreneur, as the typical job is unlikely to provide you with these resources either. I think it's perfectly acceptable to admit that our pursuits are often stepping stones to achieving more later on.
• ef47d35620c1 13y ago
  I would spend more time helping others understand that life is difficult and that we are impermanent. If we stop and think about why we feel unhappy, angry, insecure or afraid then we can understand and remove the cause. We long for the past or we hope for the future and in doing so, we rush through the now. Stop. Breath. Be human. Life is more than your job. You job is impermanent. You are impermanent. Your health or the people you love may be gone tomorrow.
  • azatris 13y ago
    Sincere question from an open-minded student: My mindset is such that I try do everything for long-term happiness, but if I stop worrying about the future and live only one day at a time, where will I ever end up?
    • ef47d35620c1 13y ago
      I, too, am a student. We all learn from each other. We can't say where we will end up in life. No one knows this for certain. Being responsible and planning for the future are good things. Taking good care of yourself financially, mentally, physically and emotionally are all important now and for the future. Life happens while we make plans. Many times, life interferes with our plans. That's OK. That doesn't mean we should stop planning. Understanding that we cannot predict or control the future will transform our suffering. We can live now and plan for our future and have peace inside as well.
    • ermintrude 13y ago
      If you pick up almost any book on eastern philosophy you'll find that living in the present is the key. Give up the future. It won't be how you imagine anyway.
• hackluck 13y ago
  Amen! Agreed. I always like thinkers that challenge the unexamined life and its motivations. It gives you something to think about and just enough motivation to question why you are doing what you are doing-- and make a change.
• stcredzero 13y ago
  I'm not so sure any normal human is free of the need for some kind of attention. To be kicked out of a group feels like death to us, because our mental machinery was formed to deal with a situation where it was often death. We value the regard of our peers because it's actually a life and death resource to us. That said, humans are pretty horrific, when it comes down to it. Not that many creatures do the things to their own species that humans do as often as we do with as much enthusiasm.
• deleted 13y ago
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• dmlorenzetti 13y ago
  Given money enough, and time, I definitely have things I would work on (mostly developing numerical algorithms for solving physical modeling problems, and expressing them in software). Yet, paradoxically, I worry about being given unconditional money and time to work on them. Occasionally my wife and I talk about my quitting work, and us moving to Thailand (her native country). Her vision of my ideal life there is that I wouldn't have to work, and could sit around doing my pet projects without any time or money constraints. That always strikes me as dangerous. Those projects I want to work on didn't jump into my head unbidden. The ideas arose from years of coming to grips with real-world problems that don't have entirely satisfactory solutions. If I untether myself from the work that led to the ideas I want to pursue, then where will the next ideas come from? And how will I know whether they are worth pursuing? To me, having side projects that seem worth doing, especially from the point of being useful to others (Sivers' way of distinguishing what he means by "not just relaxing"), requires their being grounded in real-world projects. And one measure of the worth of real-world projects, like it or not, is that people are willing to pay to get them done.
  • bubbleRefuge 13y ago
    Occasionally my wife and I talk about my quitting work, and us moving to Thailand (her native country). Her vision of my ideal life there is that I wouldn't have to work, and could sit around doing my pet projects without any time or money constraints. I can sympathize. My wife and I have ties to South America. Food and shelter are way way cheaper down there. The voices in my head make compelling arguments for making the move. What stops me is the kids. Don't see much of a future for them in South America vs growing up in SV.
    • davidw 13y ago
      Don't know much of anything detailed about "South America", which is a fairly big place, but a bit of time there beyond a vacation would probably do wonders for the kids in any case. My kids, wife and I live in Italy now, but I hope in the future that we'll get to live a bit in the US (where I'm from) so that they get to experience that, too.
    • 13y ago
• kevando 13y ago
  I can't over emphasize the importance of this message!!!!!!!!!!!! After college, I worked for a 'prestigious' consulting firm and found immediate success in the perspective of my peers. Truthfully, I enjoyed it. That feeling faded quickly and the cubicle walls closed in and 13 months later I quit. With no plan or direction, I moved back with my parents, who did not charge me rent and bought much of my food. In other words, I had nearly zero expenses with a stock pile of cash from my prior employer. I relaxed for 2 months before realizing that I could pretty much live this content life for like 25 years. $20k goes a long way with no expenses. I started spending my time building websites for friends and found the work fascinating and completely rewarding. It's that curiosity and fulfillment that I seek out in everything I do. I have since created a life for myself and the $20k in savings is long gone so money still drives me. But at least I know what motivates me. I know what I'd do if I could do anything and that is an incredible gift.
• Zarkonnen 13y ago
  checks Maslow's hierarchy Then you'd be focusing on self-actualisation. Lucky you.
  • cloudhead 13y ago
    This is pretty much the best if not only correct answer to the question.
  • geophile 13y ago
    Yes, but. I am fortunate enough to be in this position. In my 50s, in good health, and I don't have to work if I don't want to. I've always dreamed of being in this situation and now I am. So what am I doing with my time? - Still enjoying not having to get up and go to work, and not having to work for idiot managers. Sometimes I waste whole days going nothing (thanks, 2048). I worked in startups for 25 years, and have been mulling over my "pattern": I meet a charismatic founder, get seduced, work my ass off. That's a lot less attractive now. The getting seduced part depended, in part, on the golden carrot. (But only in part.) - Exercising a lot more. - Working on my pet projects, with a degree of urgency that varies over time. I don't need these projects to pay the bills, or to be loved and used. I get my jollies out of writing the software. - Consulting, but being very selective about the projects I pick. They have to be interesting, and hopefully related to my pet projects. I've had some success here. - Learning to play piano. (Would have been so much easier if I didn't stop when I was a child.) - Enjoying more time with my wife. - Getting back to teaching (software, of course). Here's the "problem": At my age, (and due in large part to my temperament), I'm still not thinking very far outside the box. I can afford to do lots of new things, but I'm having some trouble figuring out which ones to actually do. Why? - Software: I've always written software. I always will. I need to make time for other things. - Inertia: I tend to do what I know, and expand out from there gradually. I seem to be incapable of ravenously seeking out novelty. - Need ideas: After many years of working very hard, putting job and family first, those are the things I tend to think about. - Need to say yes more: Except for the teenager living at home, I can go someplace warm and windy and windsurf for a week, anytime I want to. Not sure why I don't. I'm starting to say yes to more impulsive things, but it definitely goes against the grain. - Frittering time away on small projects: I took on too many, so for a while, I had no time for anything else. I'm in a lull now, so I'm again contemplating how I want to spend my time.
• theothermkn 13y ago
  > Not just “sit around and do nothing”, because that's still just relaxing. I mean after that, when you're ready to be useful to others again. What would you do then, if you didn't need the money, and didn't need the attention? Yes, we need money to live. We need attention to live, too. What's interesting to me about that bit above is that it's presented in this sort of homiletic style, as if it's the distillation of experience down to some obvious and unquestionable core, but it's pernicious in that it's pure ideology. "[W]hen you're ready to be useful to others again," does so much work in this regard. It frames entrepreneurship as a service that is situated within a matrix of rational choices and utilitarian moral justification. We do these things because they're legitimately useful, they just happen to make us filthy rich. This wealth, however serendipitous and embarrassing it might be, is also justified by the actual utility it provides. Zuckerberg is wealthy because Facebook is an unquestionable force for good. The author continues, framing entrepreneurs as, at worst, misguided persons who move from being accidentally useful to being purposefully useful; Persons temporarily blinded by their universal needs for attention and money. Never mind the problem of defining exactly how much attention and money one needs--to say nothing of security and nutrition, arguably up for purchase, or love, validation, and a sense of growth, arguably not up for purchase--to...live? Survive? Get by? Flourish? Never mind all that, once that's taken care of, entrepreneurs like the author can now get back to their innately good core of, from the author's tagline, "mak[ing] useful things, and shar[ing] what [we] learn." Look, fundamentally, entrepreneurs exist to get rich. The "problems" they "solve" are chosen for their profitability, and the rhetoric about utility is just a way to colonize the discourse and deflect attention from the obvious avarice of it all. On the level of manipulation, the level of stopping the hoi polloi from rising up and strangling you, it makes sense; Anyone too stupid to see they're, for example, making their personal lives worse with Facebook so that Zuckerberg can sell ads, isn't going to have the discretion or wisdom to run an economy after any misguided revolt, no matter how apparently justified. As a means for understanding our own motivations and desires, our relationships to the game of Capitalism, these are the guilt-addled ramblings of emotionally crippled narcissists. Basic self-awareness demands that we do better.
  • sp332 13y ago
    Look, fundamentally, entrepreneurs exist to get rich. What do the rest of us do?
• myth_drannon 13y ago
  Similar to Erich Fromm quote: "If I am what I have and if I lose what I have who then am I?"
• dperfect 13y ago
  Not sure who said it, but "our greatest reason for being is to serve others." Even an atheist must admit that there's a certain satisfaction that comes from helping other people (even anonymously) that really has no limit. Go out and help make the world a better place - not out of a hope for reward or recognition... just for fun. It's addictive.
  • Amezarak 13y ago
    So you serve others to serve yourself? ;) That sounds like a reward to me!
    • dperfect 13y ago
      If that kind of "reward" isn't noble enough (I don't know of anything nobler), then we might as well not live at all.
  • croisillon 13y ago
    Your comment on atheist shows your ignorance of what atheism is. Not sure if that's the one you're after but Rabindranath Tagore wrote this : I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy.
    • dperfect 13y ago
      My comment refers to the hope or expectation that noble acts will always be outwardly rewarded in some form (in this life or after) by a being who rewards us based on merit. That expectation is not a driving force for an atheist or naturalist. My point is that the absence of (expected) outward recognition or reward for altruistic behavior (by a supernatural or spiritual being) does not preclude someone from experiencing the joy that comes through service. And no, I personally don't classify that joy as a selfish reward, but rather a natural consequence built in to the human brain. Whether put there by God or developed via natural forces/evolution as a mechanism to protect life (we feel satisfaction in helping other animals - not just our own species), it doesn't matter; the fact is, it's a part of our nature and can hardly be discredited in any moral debate.
• deleted 13y ago
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• ritchiea 13y ago
  I try to think this way. One thing I try to do is not work too much, so I had been freelancing trying to keep my hours to around 25 a week. It freed up time to do other things, I was learning to play guitar and working on some film scripts (I am using "was" because I decided to take on a full time programming gig until June but even this I didn't take for the money, it's way below market, I took the job because it sounded interesting). One problem I encountered was people just not "getting it." And I don't mean random strangers, I mean potential clients. It's oddly difficult to tell people "I make enough money to support my lifestyle working 25 hours a week and I like to save the rest of my time for other projects that interest me." They expect you to be "doing more" or see you as lazy, after all why not make the most money you can possibly make at all times? When in fact I think I'm far less lazy than most people, I put a ton of effort into coding, educating myself, going the extra mile, working on projects for fun, reading technical books, going to talks. I'm also very serious about my pursuits beyond my programming "day job." And yet I've found it difficult to convey that, and that clients consider me unserious because I was intentionally working less than 40 hours a week even if they are looking for someone for a part time role.
  • jarrett 13y ago
    How do clients become aware that you only work 25 hours per week? If they're asking you "how much do you work," you can reply: "Considering my other commitments, I can give you 25 hours per week." They don't need to know what your other commitments are, and they'll probably be content to assume those commitments consist of other freelancing gigs. My clients don't know any details about each other. They know I have multiple clients, but they don't know each other's identities, how many there are, or how much time I give to each.
    • bad_user 13y ago
      Some clients want exclusivity for the period of the contract.
      • deleted 13y ago
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• incision 13y ago
  1.) Nurture my family. 2.) Enable people to educate themselves. Public libraries were essential in building the mindset and providing the place and materials for me to drag myself out of poverty.
  • saraid216 13y ago
    > 2.) Enable people to educate themselves. Public libraries were essential in building the mindset and providing the place and materials for me to drag myself out of poverty. Completely off-topic from the OA, but do you have any plans on this front? Plans, hopeless dreams, crazy ambitions, etc.
    • jonmb 13y ago
      I think what Khan Academy has managed to do is very useful. If you are looking to improve the world's education, I'd get in touch with them.
• adamzerner 13y ago
  It's a cliche idea, but it was articulated really well here.
• notastartup 13y ago
  Become a race car driver but nobody is hiring/
• k2enemy 13y ago
  I've been reading about stoicism lately (the ancient philosophy, not the adjective for lack of emotion) and I think that practicing stoics have some nice tools to help people out with this. One of the primary ways that stoics find tranquility is by "wanting what you already have" instead of "wanting what you don't have." Easier said than done, so they offer some tools to help, inluding negative visualization (imagining life without things you care about), only worrying about things you have control over, and occasionally denying yourself pleasures. I'm not doing the subject justice, but here's an easy to read book that condenses a lot of their ideas and applies them to modern life: http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/0195374614/ http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-Stoic/dp/01953.... And of course Wikipdeia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoicism
  • hvass 13y ago
    For an intro to stoicism you should start with Seneca's letters and Marcus Aurelius' Meditations before you jump into Guide to the Good Life (which I do not recommend, despite Derek's praise of it) Also, check out the upcoming book 'The Obstacle is the Way' by Ryan Holiday - http://www.amazon.com/The-Obstacle-Is-Way-Timeless/dp/1591846358 http://www.amazon.com/The-Obstacle-Is-Way-Timeless/dp/159184...
    • sramsay 13y ago
      Both amazing, but I think I prefer Epictetus' Discourses to either one. I'm not a big fan of Guide to the Good Life either -- mostly because I think it takes a very profound (and by no means simple or obvious) set of ideas and reduces it to a kind of intellectual fad diet. For something weightier, you might look at the works of Pierre Hadot (Philosophy as a Way of Life and What is Ancient Philosophy?), both of which contain excellent discussions of stoicism.
      • hvass 13y ago
        Check out Hadot's Inner Citadel if you haven't, also an amazing book.
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• edw519 13y ago
  when you're ready to be useful to others again. Again? You just nailed the problem. If everything you did was for others, then this discussion (and many like it) wouldn't even make sense. You wouldn't "get burned out", "lose purpose", "get stressed out", "worry about competition", "procrastinate", or "lack motivation". If your work, your art, or just your day-to-day activities were focused on delivering value to others, you'd be too busy having a ball and rejoicing in outcomes to worry about all this other stuff. And anyone who tells you otherwise (but we gotta eat first!), still doesn't get it. Thanks, OP, for reminding us that as soon as we're not so full of ourselves, and understand our role as conduits of energy, the sooner everything else flows so nicely.
  • smacktoward 13y ago
    What? No. Doctors and nurses get burned out all the time. So do cops and EMTs. Just because you've dedicated your life to serving others doesn't mean that constantly being on the line to help others can't burn you out. In some ways it can even be more stressful, because when you're only out to help yourself, you can justify easing back every now and then to reduce the pressure. When you're helping others, it's harder to do that because of the feeling that you're failing them in their moment of need.
• midas007 13y ago
  Toiling in anonymity is something I enjoy. Privacy is priceless.
• munificent 13y ago
  > But what if you had so much money that you couldn't possibly want any more? There's such a deeply narcissistic undercurrent here. If you ever find yourself having too money money, what that means is you have too few people who you are using your resources to help. Being rich shouldn't be, "Well, I've got a yacht and a motorcycle, I guess I'm good!" It should be, "Ah I finally have enough to help X. If only I could get more and help Y as well." You aren't rich enough until the whole world is rich with you.
  • briholt 13y ago
    The author agrees - he is asking what should you do "when you're ready to be useful to others again"? It doesn't strike me as narcissistic.
    • forgottenpass 13y ago
      I don't read it as narcissistic either, but I do think it's written in a way that acknowledges and then pushes aside the narcissism present in the world. It seemed like a downright practical way to cut to his point without being misunderstood.
  • stephp 13y ago
    Beautifully said. My mind always goes there too.
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  • rz2k 13y ago
    This is a little like arguing that someone else's meaning of life is incorrect. There are different philosophies, and those that argue being able to recognize you have enough is important have been accused of being selfish. I remember a conversation where someone was appalled that that was how Pope John Paul essentially wrote off Buddhism in one of his books. The author is the real deal in the sense that he did choose to decide he had enough, and set up a foundation to support music education and began advocating for entrepreneurship.[1] Maybe the reality is that Derek Sivers does not believe that he could as effectively manage a larger foundation as he can manage a smaller foundation like the one he set up. You might not make the same decisions as he did. I wouldn't, and I disagree with the extent to which he seems to have taken "mo' money, mo' problems" to heart. However, you could also say that his quality of life is maximized by him being the one who makes those calls, which may be a suitable localized goal, maximizing global benefit more than if he were striving to his limit in supporting more ambitious goals. [1] https://sivers.org/trust https://sivers.org/trust
• josefresco 13y ago
  I hate these theoretical scenarios because my practical brain kicks in and I start asking questions like: Do I have lots of money making money not important/critical? Does everyone also not have to worry about money? Do my kids/family also have the same "money free" existence as me? Am I able to travel without incurring any cost? If I do have tons of money, am I allowed to spend it on other people/causes? I don't need attention so that's not a concern, but the money issue is too complicated to simply take it out of the equation for me. If I ignore my practical brain ... my priorities would be my kids, my wife, my immediate family and community in that order. Spending time with my kids, making sure they have everything they need, most of what they want, and simply loving them (without being distracted by providing for them) would be the easiest and most gratifying part of not having to worry about money. However being super-rich wouldn't solve any of these issues for me as I would feel a great burdon to help those in need. If my family was taken care of, the logically extends to my community, and those around the world most in need (similar to Gates) What a nightmare to know that you have more money than anyone and are in the best position (besides governments) to help people. I don't know how Bill sleeps at night.
  • JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Most of our concerns about money are definitely 1st-world. Keeping up with expectations - school, housing, car, travel. Most of the world doesn't have these concerns. And we don't (have to) have them either. Its voluntary. There was a great book "Your money or your life" which like those others referenced here, talked about how the pursuit of money becomes a lifestyle, instead of enabling one. Lots to think about there.
    • ahomescu1 13y ago
      > Most of our concerns about money are definitely 1st-world. Keeping up with expectations - school, housing, car, travel. Most of the world doesn't have these concerns. You'd be surprised. In fact, I'd say quite the opposite: poor people in developing countries are even more concerned with appearances and expectations (for example, I have heard a lot of stories about people who can barely afford rent/food, but they drive a BMW or own a smartphone).
• enscr 13y ago
  You are missing the peer pressure part. Even if you don't need money & don't need attention, people won't let you live being content. The greed for money+attention, in my view, are the biggest vices. Unfortunately, they also drive growth & innovation.
• runevault 13y ago
  I swear, there are times when Derek puts up a post and I wonder if he's in my head seeing what I need to see at a given moment. It's eery, but damned handy too.
• graycat 13y ago
  Likely you'd be dead!
• ThomPete 13y ago
  I have always said no matter whether I am rich or poor the thing I will enjoy most in life is hanging with friends and drink a glass of wine. The only thing that will vary is the price of the wine. But there is a very big difference between this being a choice or a realization you make at one point in your life vs having to accept the situation you are in. For people like Sivers, me and I guess most other fairly successful people this kind of insight and choice is a luxury we have. I am always reminded that Dalai Lama is only capable of doing what he does and sound so insightful as he does because he doesn't have to worry about day to day things. Try getting married, earn a living and have a couple of kids. Lifes complicated and for most people a struggle.
• kstenerud 13y ago
  This post is a bit off. Money is a tool, a form of power. You can desire power in order to accomplish things, or simply for the love of power. Attention is something most people crave, and while it can provide a positive feedback loop of activity, it is not an end in and of itself. But that's not all there is to life. There is experience, exploration & discovery, the act of creation, enrichment of the mind and body (knowledge and skill), service. Power can be used in order to accomplish these feats, and attention may result, but please keep them in their place lest they take ownership of you! A life spent pursuing them will soon leave you feeling empty.
  • ahomescu1 13y ago
    > Money is a tool, a form of power. Money is also a simplifier of trade. I write software, my dentist fixes teeth. When I get a cavity and my dentist puts a filling, I don't pay him/her by giving them code, I give them dollars instead. Do I have power over my dentist, since I can choose to not give them money? Sure, but then he/she will also not fix my cavities.
    • whytaka 13y ago
      Money becomes a power if you have a lot. Money then becomes more than just a medium of exchange, it becomes a capacity of will.
    • kstenerud 13y ago
      You have the power to get your teeth fixed by someone. If you did not have money, you'd have to use other forms of power to get it done (calling a favor, threatening, bartering, etc), or perhaps you couldn't get it done at all because you lack any source of power that's sufficient.
      • ahomescu1 13y ago
        None of those other forms of power are as efficient or effective as money (in fact, money evolved from bartering as it was more efficient) except for violence. However, we have (or at least are trying) to move away from violence as a society.
• davidw 13y ago
  Then I'd be in shape, out enjoying my bicycle in the local hills, have a lot more time for my kids and wife, and computer time would probably just be "fooling around with open source stuff" - I do enjoy programming so I would not want to give it up. Sounds nice, I'd like to sign up.
• ironhide 13y ago
  My life would be more like a star trek character beamed to an undeveloped planet. Picard - "People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'. We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions."
• jwmoz 13y ago
  I'd do what Tom does http://instagram.com/myspacetom http://instagram.com/myspacetom
  • josefresco 13y ago
    I follow Tom on Twitter (consume his feed in Flipboard) for this exact reason. Every time I look at one of his photos posted from around the world, I dream a little. Dude seems to be living the life he always wanted. The snarky side of me grumbles that he's probably still not happy .. but damn he sure looks it.
• ahomescu1 13y ago
  > Many of my friends are entrepreneurs. A few have mentioned this deep hollow conflicted feeling. Their business ideas are not things the world wants. They're following the current tech entrepreneur stereotype, building social apps and pursuing investors. They're hating it, and having to admit they're doing it only for the jackpot. But if they stop, what's left? I feel like this article is ignoring rich entrepreneurs who do use their wealth for far more interesting and/or useful things. First example that comes to mind: Elon Musk. Could he have made SpaceX or Tesla without first getting rich? Probably not. I think it's worthwhile to struggle to get rich, if you plan to use that monetary wealth to invest in more long-term plans.
• petercooper 13y ago
  You know that feeling you have after a big meal? Where you're so full that you really actively don't want anything more? I've often wondered what's going on in this situation because it's not always due to literally being 'full'. If you could package up that feeling (hormones, chemicals, whatever's causing it) and sell it in pill form, you would be the richest person on the planet..
  • kalleboo 13y ago
    > If you could package up that feeling (hormones, chemicals, whatever's causing it) and sell it in pill form, you would be the richest person on the planet.. Is this not quite literally what drugs are? And I don't just mean illegal drugs but stuff like Xanax.
    • JetSpiegel 13y ago
      They are the richest people on the planet, so you are both right.
• amerkhalid 13y ago
  It is funny that I have been thinking about this a lot lately too. In fact, my latest blog post deals with this question a bit. I used to think that one should first make millions. Then retire and then work on fun projects. I used to work on side projects that can generate income like freelancing or become business like social networks. Initially, these projects would be fun. I would essentially work on my side projects during any free time. Then I would get burned and take a break from side projects. And soon I would start all over again. Now my goals are to work on side projects that really interest me, with or without money part. So I am writing, reading non-technical books, reading up on Big Data, AI, and my new hobby, playing with Arduino.
• _sabe_ 13y ago
  I hate compliments. I become uncomfortable when people say nice things to me because I don't know if they are sarcastic or not. Probably because I'm never satisfied with my own results always thinking about how I could have done it better. Secondly I hate everything material, even so money. I make just enough money to pay the bills and other essentials, but if someone I know even remotely would ask me for $100 I would never ever think about getting it back. No one else who can relate to this?
  • nsxwolf 13y ago
    I definitely relate to this. When I get a compliment, I instinctively feel the need to say something negative about whatever it is that is being complimented. No idea where that comes from.
  • prezjordan 13y ago
    Yep. Same boat. I'm a student though, so I'm curious how things will change once I start my career. I'm a bit minimalist, and it sounds like you are too. I hate carrying more than one bag when I travel, and the thought of having a ton of stuff I don't need makes me really, really uncomfortable. It's surreal. Do you use this "never satisfied" outlook for personal improvement? I'm really glad I act that way. It keeps me moving forward, even if I seem a little cynical along the way.
    • jackvalentine 13y ago
      I'm a student too, in my final year. In a month my employment is going to finish and I'll have 9 months of living on savings until it's all over. I own a largish TV, a few consoles, a bunch of stuff I don't need. It does make me feel very uncomfortable. I suspect rather than dipping in to savings too much, I'll be simply selling things off.
    • _sabe_ 13y ago
      > I'm a bit minimalist, and it sounds like you are too. I hate carrying more than one bag when I travel, and the thought of having a ton of stuff I don't need makes me really, really uncomfortable. It's surreal. To me it's like material things takes up valuable space inside of my head that already cramped more important. It's like even if you don't use the stuff you own, it still takes energy to keep track of it. The paradoxical thing is that in a way I'm maybe more materialistic than everybody else because I get very attached to things. When I buy things it has to be perfect, and the process of finding the perfect product is sometime so cumbersome that even if it's something that I actually would need, I spend a week researching about what to buy and then end up just skipping it thinking "I managed so far". Now I gotten so used to this pattern that I've started to actively buy as little as possible just to spare my self from this time consuming process. > Do you use this "never satisfied" outlook for personal improvement?Do you use this "never satisfied" outlook for personal improvement? Yes, absolutely. As I don't look for endorsement from other people, and money does not either interest me, that's the thing that keeps me going. If perfection and personal improvement wasn't important, then I really wouldn't know what would get me out of bed each day.
• hownottowrite 13y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7414767 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7414767
• nsxwolf 13y ago
  How many people really need or want attention? I somehow know that nothing I have ever done or will do would ever earn me any attention, so it must be the case that I don't need it or I'd be very unhappy right now. Is this a Silicon Valley thing?
  • chippy 13y ago
    Depends how you define attention. From your spouse saying "that's nice" or you fellow coder saying "cool" to a billion people using your software, to hacker news karma, or acknowledgement of your comment. You can see the range of attention that I'm trying to get across.
• Killah911 13y ago
  I would be doing EXACTLY what I am doing now. Spaceflight software, startups and tons of volunteering. I was at a point in my life where I seriously had to ask myself this question quite seriously. After much grief, I'm in a very happy place now. Not necessarily pleasurable, but happy. I help startups get launched, dreams turn to reality & I get to flex my geek muscles studying neuroscience and designing software that challenges me. I realize that I am amongst the very lucky few. I recall the seriously hollow feeling. Being surrounded by stuff. I am fortunate enough to have friends (some billionaires) who surprisingly have not only dealt with this but have figured out some pretty awesome ways to live life without being an over the top Rap Star consumer. (which I unfortunately succumbed to for a while). I have fewer cars, and other useless toys, but it's wonderful being free. Doing things because you want to and doing things to be happy (again not to be confused with pleasure). To be honest, it really doesn't take much to get there. You don't even have to be a millionaire. Here's to doing... and realizing that the journey is the reward! Cheers to my fellow HNers looking beyond the bounds of modernism or most -isms.
• chippy 13y ago
  Goes against the Protestant Work Ethic. This states that to be a good person you have do be diligent and work hard.
  • ctdonath 13y ago
    Disagree (Protestant here). Nothing stopping you from being diligent and working hard when all your financial needs are met. I would...exist. Off grid, as back-to-basics as possible. Minutes ago I was looking up how to obtain & grind wheat with a hand mill, lamenting not having enough land to grow my own. Bottomless supply of money? would cover the basics of buying the land (cheap though my choice would be), ensuring taxes & recurring overhead take care of themselves, buying the tools needed which I'd not yet gotten around to making from raw materials, and (insofar as I'm a geek obsessed with things I've no hope of making myself) buying leading-edge high-tech widgets which would in turn be applied to pay for themselves. Should endless funds truly tempt me, they'd be applied to (again) ultimately self-funding ventures. My problem now is being stuck with a "market peak" mortgage. I'm painfully aware of how vital - and how near - financial independence is. "All the money I'd need" isn't really that much, as I've already earned - and spent less than wisely - it. I was actually quite close to that point, then found that love can be quite pricy.
• outside1234 13y ago
  i feel so fortunate that i can truly say, that for me, one of those things is software. i really would do this for nothing. (don't tell my boss)
• alexvr 13y ago
  That's when you become Elon Musk and actually change the world. But if we're talking about like $5M, enough to retire quite comfortably, I'd just experiment and not worry what others think of what I do/create.
• tegeek 13y ago
  When you realize you've enough of everything, you are truly rich.
• spiritplumber 13y ago
  If I didn't need money or attention I would do roughly what I do now. I consider that a great blessing. Find a job you love and keep enough distance to not grow to hate it, and that's half a recipe for happiness right there.
• cykho 13y ago
  I think most great hackers (and hacks) are driven by curiosity. Things that have the highest expected value for returning money/attention are usually boring.
• cykho 13y ago
  I think most great hackers (and hacks) are driven by curiosity. Things that have the highest expected value for returning money/attention are usually boring.
• nine_k 13y ago
  Just my 2¢. I personally don't need piles of money. I could make 20% of what I'm making now, do what I love to do, and not feel strained. (Actually, I lived on much-much less.) But I have a family to support, children to educate, etc, and this requires a lot of money. So yes, I'm looking for ways to make more money, like 10x, or even 100x of what I'm making now. Also, unlike food, money does not cease to be useful in quantities you yourself cannot consume. I bet Bill Gates does not spend a million of his riches a day. The Gates Foundation possibly spends more, though—hopefully in a way Mr. Gates finds personally satisfying.
  • Dewie 13y ago
    > But I have a family to support, children to educate, etc, and this requires a lot of money. So yes, I'm looking for ways to make more money, like 10x, or even 100x of what I'm making now. You must have a very large family to support/lot of college tuition to pay off.
    • nine_k 13y ago
      I dislike debts, so I'd rather pay upfront, which might be a bit expensive. Also, having 50-100 your yearly incomes invested effectively retires you and your family: you don't have to work for money any more and can pursue what you love. Exactly as the original article suggests.
• zk00006 13y ago
  To get to point when you don't need more money is not that hard. But it certainly depends how much you want. In the end you have one hamburger for lunch anyway [Bill Gates]. Attention is trickier. It brings more power, but also more social pressure.
• tdees40 13y ago
  In the words of the poet Philip Larkin, we're all "stumbling up the stair/into fulfillment's desolate attic."
• andretti1977 13y ago
  Money, attention...these should be side-effects in living a good life. So simple, so true.
• Mz 13y ago
  Funny/ironic: I'm actually already doing the stuff I believe in ... and trying to figure out how to monetize it, which requires me to figure out how to get traffic (aka "attention").
• DanielBMarkham 13y ago
  After reading a recommendation for the book "A Guide to the Good Life" on HN, I reviewed it on a hacker site I have. Stoics throughout history been some of the best-equipped for finding joy in life, which is one of the reasons their methods have been taken by so many others. When you're dealing with these issues, stoicism is highly recommended. BTW, on the target page you can read hacker reviews from most of the other major sites, my review, and a bunch of other stuff. The site was a project I completed so that I didn't have to describe the same books over and over again on HN (So apologies for not diving into a huge amount of detail here) :) http://hn-books.com/Books/A-Guide-to-the-Good-Life-The-Ancient-Art-of-Stoic-Joy.htm http://hn-books.com/Books/A-Guide-to-the-Good-Life-The-Ancie...
• joyeuse6701 13y ago
  Propose this to the homeless and the destitute and see what sort of responses one receives. This is a fun thought experiment for the privileged. As a kid this is what was beaten into the minds of the soon to graduate out of college 'study what you love' they'd say. The idea was attractive to be sure. But when it is about survival, when you don't have a cushion, an infrastructure that will provide for you, this sort of thing isn't an option, the rhetoric is really a sophistry. What one can glean from this is what many have already considered. Make enough money, satiate yourself so that it's no longer a need, and then you really do have the freedom to pick and choose and do what you want. It is a rare sort of situation and person that can do this from the beginning to the end of their lives. Work comes out of a necessity, for many of us it is not something you simply change your mind on, and you're suddenly free from the burden. EDIT: spacing, wording
• ajcarpy2005 13y ago
  " Many of my friends are entrepreneurs. A few have mentioned this deep hollow conflicted feeling. Their business ideas are not things the world wants. They're following the current tech entrepreneur stereotype, building social apps and pursuing investors. They're hating it, and having to admit they're doing it only for the jackpot." It seems like a lot of time and economic resources go towards creating things the world doesn't want. Some of this is just a part of competition and maybe people didn't think they wanted it until they saw it and tried it. There's some truth to it too though...short term gain is often more attractive than long term.
• Jack000 13y ago
  Last week I quit my job of 3 years to travel. The plan is to stay at a different city each month. I've been told "Isn't it risky to give up such a well paying job". Well it seems to me the real risk is to sit in a beige box for 10 years and have little other experiences besides work and vacation.
• iopq 13y ago
  I would browser hacker news or reddit all day. It's quite stimulating
  • JetSpiegel 13y ago
    I already do that!
• rpearl 13y ago
  Check your privilege. Most people don't have the opportunity to do what they love; they are just working to make ends meet. They don't have the ability to fall back to something safe if they fail. If they do not have a job they will simply not survive. They aren't looking to "benefit others" through their work, they just want to continue living. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/01/in-the-name-of-love/ https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/01/in-the-name-of-love/
  • Mz 13y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7432061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7432061 (Have I mentioned recently that I'm still homeless? Just wondering.)
  • forgottenpass 13y ago
    Most of the submitted article is spent acknowledging just how impractical the premise of the question is. Don't take it on it's own terms (I thought it was a dumb post for different reasons) but at least recognize it knows it's daydreaming. Check your privilege. Is this sentence used as anything other than a snub anymore? Your point isn't worthless, but it reads like "wake up sheeple" posts of yesteryear. The writing is emotionally charged and confrontational as if you have something new to say. You're just reminding everyone of a world incongruity they came to grips with by adolescence. I'm not saying they are (or should be) fine with it, I'm saying your post is cliche and not helping. You don't have to stop fighting the good fight, just consider how you're doing it. Or ignore me and post a link to a wiki page titled "tone argument" because your self-satisfaction for participating in a cause is more important to you than your efficacy at it.
• loisaidasam 13y ago
  "Be content with what you have; rejoice in the way things are. When you realize there is nothing lacking, the whole world belongs to you." -Lao Tzu
• greghinch 13y ago
  There are a lot of things in life which are better than money, and they're all very, very expensive
• Taek 13y ago
  "Many of my friends are entrepreneurs. A few have mentioned this deep hollow conflicted feeling. Their business ideas are not things the world wants. They're following the current tech entrepreneur stereotype, building social apps and pursuing investors. They're hating it, and having to admit they're doing it only for the jackpot. But if they stop, what's left?" For me, that's exactly why I'm starting a company instead of going somewhere like Google. I'm not in it to hit the jackpot, I'm in it to make a lasting impact on the world and the way that we use technology. At this stage (early), it feels like I'm actually trying something useful. I feel like I have a purpose, and it's a more satisfying source of motivation than a potential jackpot. I'd be interested to see Elon Musk weigh in on this. Hitting the financial jackpot seems very far from his mind. He said himself, his goal is to die as a resident of Mars, and the rest is just trying to pay the bills so he can fund his dream.
• FollowSteph3 13y ago
  Pure R&D without the need for profit. That gives you whole classes of problems you can look. Especially longer term and higher risk projects
• _kulte 13y ago
  It's interesting, because my first impression is that stoicism is more of a virtue for someone like Derek than someone who has yet to, for lack of a better phrasing, make as tangible, substantive dent or mark or whatever in the universe, i.e. myself. However, reading Sam Soffes' blog post last night where he states his deep dissatisfaction with his accomplishments to date (Cheddar, SSToolkit, Seesaw, elusive internet fame), it makes me think that I'll never be happy even after achieving larger goals. From my current point of view, which will no doubt change, stoicism kind of seems pointless insofar as people, for at least the past couple hundred years, have had an intrinsic desire/need to feel important. It's what motivates us to do ANYTHING, not just start a universe-changing company, or achieve lofty goals in open source, or to become rich, but it motivates our everyday interactions with people we encounter for any reason. Dale Carnegie has a nice discussion of this phenomenon in 'How to Win Friends and Influence People'.
• ca98am79 13y ago
  If anyone would like to explore themselves at a deeper level, to try to really understand the roots of these cravings, I highly recommend Vipassana meditation. They offer free 10-day courses, where you don't read or write or talk at all the entire time. You just meditate, and they teach you to meditate. It doesn't have any religious or political affiliation - it's like boot camp for meditation. It's truly awesome, and gives you the opportunity for true, real personal growth. You can read more about it at dhamma.org
• rglover 13y ago
  Without a doubt: education. Specifically, my dream is to open a series of public, alternative schools where children are educated about existentialism, their role in the universe, and helping them to understand that most limits in life are artificial and made up (and ultimately to embrace creativity and harness it for good). I haven't quite pinned it down, but I'd like the curriculum to be project-based with a handful of field trips peppered in for perspective (alternative being the keyword, with things like working at a homeless shelter for a day, spending time with an elderly "mentor", picking out something they want to see, etc.) One day.
• tim333 13y ago
  Dunno. I inherited money and have been in roughly that position for much of my life. Try to have fun and make stuff that's cool?
• EGreg 13y ago
  I feel afraid for that pigeon
• jmspring 13y ago
  California native, I would continue the explorations I've started. Given it is investigating history, potentially out of the way areas, attention can come later in recognition of or absorption of collected Specifically, I would spend multiple weeks/months in: 1. Death Valley (friends and I already spend a week or so a year hear for the last several years) - we always find something new; plus literature leads to additional areas to explore 2. Highway 49, the gold country. A lot of the sierras have been built up, but there is a lot of history along Hwy 49 still to be uncovered and shared. Throw in sightseeing with tramping, appropriately timed folk songs, a lot could be learned -- for recent concerns, I would coordinate w/ those in Nevada City helping w/ the recently deceased folk hero Utah Phillips 3. Exploring rural Big Sur/Fort Hunter Liggett. This is my current back door. Big Sur is where we go to get away, but during the high season it is over run. There are nuggets to explore, but we have missed them during the crush. These are just three very CA oriented segments. Specifics on any of which you can send me a PM about.
• markovbling 13y ago
  Very difficult to reconcile because, in my own experience at least, I get across the board better results if I almost "trick" myself into feeling I need whatever I'm working towards. What's weird to come to terms with is that the self-hypnosis of psyching yourself into working really hard has by definition succeeded when you no longer need it.
• neumann 13y ago
  Significant changes to one's life, such as deaths, sickness, and births tend to pull people's perspective on this direction (at least temporarily).