8 ms·

Unfortunately, this is why there's hotel regulations. I think AirBnb is net-good, but it certainly is going to make a few people's lives miserable in the meanti

Unfortunately, this is why there's hotel regulations. I think AirBnb is net-good, but it certainly is going to make a few people's lives miserable in the meantime. Hopefully AirBnb finds a way to mitigate these issues. That being said, I guarantee you were violating your lease when you used AirBnb. And, you approved the person to stay in your house. If anyone should be mad, it's your neighbors and apartment owner -- they followed the rules. This is really unfortunate, but it's not all AirBnb's fault.

sliverstorm 13y ago
Hopefully AirBnb finds a way to mitigate these issues. Perhaps with rules? Of the type one might describe as "regulations"?
- sp332 13y ago
  Imposing rules on your own users for the good of your other users is not at all the same thing as imposing rules on everyone for the good of those who paid for your reelection campaign.
  - ewoodrich 13y ago
    What if those same rules were applied industry-wide for the good of users of AirBnb and other services? At what point does it morph into a corrupt regulation?
    - NoPiece 13y ago
      Mutual agreement vs imposition
    - baddox 13y ago
      My initial thought is to draw the line at rules which are enforced by a group that uses violence to prevent other groups from offering alternative rules and/or is funded by taxation.
      - deong 13y ago
        Like abolishing slavery? Seriously, you're excluding the possibility of any legitimate government taking action in the public interest.
        baddox 13y ago
        Yes, I'm excluding the possibility of any legitimate government.
  - tzs 13y ago
    Who do you imagine paid for hotel regulation?
    - baddox 13y ago
      I'll pretend that's an earnest question and give an earnest answer. Hotels paid for the hotel regulation.
      - tzs 13y ago
        Hotels paid to have costly and inconvenient regulations placed upon themselves? Why?
- fennecfoxen 13y ago
  Perhaps a payout under the terms of https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee will mitigate the issue that this particular host encountered.
  - Spoom 13y ago
    “Excluded Accommodation” means: any condominium, townhouse, co-operative, apartment, or other unit within a multiple-dwelling structure, complex, or similar type development to the extent owned in whole or in part by anyone other than you Since he mentioned a landlord, I'm doubtful that he owned his apartment.
    - paulgb 13y ago
      Considering the host guarantee was put in place in response to a customer whose apartment was vandalised[1] this seems like a remarkable exception. [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/airbnb-will-insure-up-to-1-million-in-property-damage/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/airbnb-will-insure-up-to-1-milli...
      - Joeri 13y ago
        I think the host in that case owned their appartment.
        paulgb 13y ago
        I don't think so; her post refers to AirBnB helping with the "monthly rent" http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.ca/2011/06/violated-travelers-lost-faith-difficult.html?m=1 http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.ca/2011/06/violated-traveler...
      - judk 13y ago
        AirBnB happily collects fees from illegal customers, but can't very well pay out insurance to them. That would be a dstectable violation of the law.
      - 13y ago
copergi 13y ago
>That being said, I guarantee you were violating your lease when you used AirBnb How can you guarantee that? Plenty of places let you sublet. Hell, in reasonable jurisdictions you can't legally prevent someone from subletting.
- gkoberger 13y ago
  Because he's in NYC, and it's illegal according to the "Illegal Hotel Law": http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/nyregion/the-airbnb-economy-in-new-york-lucrative-but-often-unlawful.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/nyregion/the-airbnb-econom... Even if there's nothing about subletting (which I doubt), you can't do illegal stuff without violating a lease.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    "you can't do illegal stuff without violating a lease" This is speculation and not true. Not to mention that the criminal code and the civil code are distinct bodies of law. In general, it would be more likely to be evicted for a "quality of life" violation (such as that citation) than for any ramdom infraction of the criminal code. Furthermore, to the extent relevant, a landlord usually reserves "the right, but not the oblication" to take action or not. And crap like this is more likely to warrant eviction than a mere legal infraction (which need not even be disclosed).
    - anovikov 13y ago
      Is porn fest an illegal stuff? Of course there is property damage for which they are responsible, but other than that? I lived a long time in Prague, and there are porn fests once every few days in every block and nobody seems to worry.
      - 001sky 13y ago
        I'd be more worried about lying in the contract, but that's just me. If I sub lease you a real-estate parcel for non-commercial use and then you charge money, that's you using my property for a (unauthorized) commercial transaction. Not to mention the provision of alcohol (commercially) which is seperately regulated. Etc. Not only does this demonstrate lack of integrity in the direct relationship, it creates problems with thrid-party contracts and service providers. Ie, insurance claims etc. So, yeah I would be making you sign an open ended imdeniication for any breech such as this. And you're lawyers wouldn't like that. Also, there is repuataional damage to my brand. Again, if you did this in breech of my contract, I would put you on the hook for this via the terms of the contract. Of course, we might never sign a deal If I was this well protected and your intentions were not above board.
oskarth 13y ago
You are saying: (a) This could never happen a hotel room. (b) Since Airbnb is illegal in NYC, it's not Airbnb's fault someone is trusting them and their vetting system in NYC.* Both seems false to me. * Obviously it's not their "fault", but they should take responsibility, just like an insurance company / hotel chain would. ADDITION: What's the purpose of Airbnb's vetting/trust system? Is it not the same as the purpose of hotel regulation? Should they not both serve a similar function?
- rayiner 13y ago
  The purpose of hotel regulations isn't to keep these things from happening. It's to keep these things confined to places equipped to deal with them, and zoned to keep it all away from residential places.
  - vacri 13y ago
    Not to mention that when this does happen in a hotel, no-one ends up evicted over it.
    - alttab 13y ago
      Everyone just high fives instead.
- gkoberger 13y ago
  No, it totally could happen in a hotel room. And I bet it does, constantly. But hotels are equipped for it, so there's fewer issues (no personal property damaged, better fire codes, credit card on file, not happening in a residential area, etc). And I didn't say (b). Rather, I said AirBnb didn't force them to let strangers into their home; it was their decision. AirBnb approved the people, sure -- but so did the apartment owner. EDIT: In response to your addition -- AirBnb doesn't verify they won't do something bad (they can't see the future). Rather, it means that AirBnb has verified they are who they said they are. So, AirBnb can now go to the police with that information.
  - 13y ago
smsm42 13y ago
No, hotel regulations are there because hotel owners lobby the lawmakers to protect their business and exclude competition. Nothing in the hotel regulations could prevent somebody from inviting people in and having a wild sex party. Of course, eventually they'd be thrown out, and possibly billed for damages, but there's no way to prevent it upfront.
- tesseractive 13y ago
  It's not just for the benefit of hotel owners. Cities typically charge huge taxes on hotel stays, so illicit hotels are dodging taxes. And there are actually some vestiges of regulations directed at protecting consumers from hotels that are firetraps, lack adequate ventilation, etc.
  - smsm42 13y ago
    Well, you're right, that too. Though I'm not sure what this tax is for - i.e. what exactly is it except "these people do not live here, so they aren't our voters, so fleecing them a bit won't hurt"?
    - tesseractive 13y ago
      Yes, that's exactly what that kind of tax is for.
- JohnTHaller 13y ago
  Maybe you should look up the rash of hotel fires before some of those regulations were put on the books. Or consider the fact that many of our homes are in apartment buildings and we didn't sign on to have an illegal hotel in the apartment next door.
  - smsm42 13y ago
    What fires have to do with it? The OP didn't complain about fire. It complained about his guests inviting other people, having wild sex party and trashing the apartment. Tell me that never happened in hotels. You make it sound like OP was running a crime syndicate there. He just let people stay in his place for a couple of nights. People do it all the time. I did it many times for my friends and was the beneficiary of the same many times. One time he trusted wrong people's recommendation and it didn't work out. It could as well happen to anybody - you could trust your best friend's friend and let him stay at your place and he could invite his pals and turn the place upside down. Nothing to do with fire codes.
andrewhillman 13y ago
This happens all the time in hotels. Where do you think a good chunk of xxx movies are shot? I will answer this for you - HOTELS or any homes producers have access to before deadline. This wont be the first, second or last time either.
shin_lao 13y ago
I agree with what you say, with a limit. The problem is what "verified" means. It seems it only means that AirBnB only checked that the person is who they are and they have some credit card on file. The problem is the way it appears conveys more trust than it should because verified appears in way that says "secure". I agree it's not what it says, but still, that's how it "appears". It sounds as if there's some sort of insurance. Speaking of insurance, does AirBnB offer insurance (for a price or not) to its customers? Does the lack of regulations and the gray area prevent this? Let's not forget in the end the victim is the OP. He's probably been careless, but he remains a victim.
- hauget 13y ago
  Airbnb provides various means of "verification". You can verify a telephone number, an ID, Facebook profile (and even see how many friends the person has). Airbnb also provides references by friends and reviews by Airbnb members. Example:http://imgur.com/yQaSBdO http://imgur.com/yQaSBdO Some of these verifications are optional, and as far as I know only a number, email and sometimes an ID are compulsory. The fundamental issue at hand is whether the OP is at fault for being too naive, not checking for proper verifications and simply choosing to trust the renter based on the info he/she provided. Personally, I don't think Airbnb is at fault. (did the OP even bother to talk to the renter over the phone?). I personally love using Airbnb and will continue to use it. What is continually a worry for me is is the lack of common sense people have when renting out their homes to complete strangers. What would have been the difference if this person was simply running an illegal bed & breakfast in his apartment and this happened? I feel sorry for the OP, but if you just choose to trust "strangers" and not take proper precautions and then expect Airbnb to have all the blame, then you're just kinda of a moron.

sliverstorm 13y ago

Hopefully AirBnb finds a way to mitigate these issues. Perhaps with rules? Of the type one might describe as "regulations"?

sp332 13y ago
Imposing rules on your own users for the good of your other users is not at all the same thing as imposing rules on everyone for the good of those who paid for your reelection campaign.
- ewoodrich 13y ago
  What if those same rules were applied industry-wide for the good of users of AirBnb and other services? At what point does it morph into a corrupt regulation?
  - NoPiece 13y ago
    Mutual agreement vs imposition
  - baddox 13y ago
    My initial thought is to draw the line at rules which are enforced by a group that uses violence to prevent other groups from offering alternative rules and/or is funded by taxation.
    - deong 13y ago
      Like abolishing slavery? Seriously, you're excluding the possibility of any legitimate government taking action in the public interest.
      - baddox 13y ago
        Yes, I'm excluding the possibility of any legitimate government.
- tzs 13y ago
  Who do you imagine paid for hotel regulation?
  - baddox 13y ago
    I'll pretend that's an earnest question and give an earnest answer. Hotels paid for the hotel regulation.
    - tzs 13y ago
      Hotels paid to have costly and inconvenient regulations placed upon themselves? Why?
fennecfoxen 13y ago
Perhaps a payout under the terms of https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee will mitigate the issue that this particular host encountered.
- Spoom 13y ago
  “Excluded Accommodation” means: any condominium, townhouse, co-operative, apartment, or other unit within a multiple-dwelling structure, complex, or similar type development to the extent owned in whole or in part by anyone other than you Since he mentioned a landlord, I'm doubtful that he owned his apartment.
  - paulgb 13y ago
    Considering the host guarantee was put in place in response to a customer whose apartment was vandalised[1] this seems like a remarkable exception. [1] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/airbnb-will-insure-up-to-1-million-in-property-damage/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/airbnb-will-insure-up-to-1-milli...
    - Joeri 13y ago
      I think the host in that case owned their appartment.
      - paulgb 13y ago
        I don't think so; her post refers to AirBnB helping with the "monthly rent" http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.ca/2011/06/violated-travelers-lost-faith-difficult.html?m=1 http://ejroundtheworld.blogspot.ca/2011/06/violated-traveler...
    - judk 13y ago
      AirBnB happily collects fees from illegal customers, but can't very well pay out insurance to them. That would be a dstectable violation of the law.
    - 13y ago

copergi 13y ago

>That being said, I guarantee you were violating your lease when you used AirBnb How can you guarantee that? Plenty of places let you sublet. Hell, in reasonable jurisdictions you can't legally prevent someone from subletting.

gkoberger 13y ago
Because he's in NYC, and it's illegal according to the "Illegal Hotel Law": http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/nyregion/the-airbnb-economy-in-new-york-lucrative-but-often-unlawful.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/nyregion/the-airbnb-econom... Even if there's nothing about subletting (which I doubt), you can't do illegal stuff without violating a lease.
- 001sky 13y ago
  "you can't do illegal stuff without violating a lease" This is speculation and not true. Not to mention that the criminal code and the civil code are distinct bodies of law. In general, it would be more likely to be evicted for a "quality of life" violation (such as that citation) than for any ramdom infraction of the criminal code. Furthermore, to the extent relevant, a landlord usually reserves "the right, but not the oblication" to take action or not. And crap like this is more likely to warrant eviction than a mere legal infraction (which need not even be disclosed).
  - anovikov 13y ago
    Is porn fest an illegal stuff? Of course there is property damage for which they are responsible, but other than that? I lived a long time in Prague, and there are porn fests once every few days in every block and nobody seems to worry.
    - 001sky 13y ago
      I'd be more worried about lying in the contract, but that's just me. If I sub lease you a real-estate parcel for non-commercial use and then you charge money, that's you using my property for a (unauthorized) commercial transaction. Not to mention the provision of alcohol (commercially) which is seperately regulated. Etc. Not only does this demonstrate lack of integrity in the direct relationship, it creates problems with thrid-party contracts and service providers. Ie, insurance claims etc. So, yeah I would be making you sign an open ended imdeniication for any breech such as this. And you're lawyers wouldn't like that. Also, there is repuataional damage to my brand. Again, if you did this in breech of my contract, I would put you on the hook for this via the terms of the contract. Of course, we might never sign a deal If I was this well protected and your intentions were not above board.

oskarth 13y ago

You are saying: (a) This could never happen a hotel room. (b) Since Airbnb is illegal in NYC, it's not Airbnb's fault someone is trusting them and their vetting system in NYC.* Both seems false to me. * Obviously it's not their "fault", but they should take responsibility, just like an insurance company / hotel chain would. ADDITION: What's the purpose of Airbnb's vetting/trust system? Is it not the same as the purpose of hotel regulation? Should they not both serve a similar function?

rayiner 13y ago
The purpose of hotel regulations isn't to keep these things from happening. It's to keep these things confined to places equipped to deal with them, and zoned to keep it all away from residential places.
- vacri 13y ago
  Not to mention that when this does happen in a hotel, no-one ends up evicted over it.
  - alttab 13y ago
    Everyone just high fives instead.
gkoberger 13y ago
No, it totally could happen in a hotel room. And I bet it does, constantly. But hotels are equipped for it, so there's fewer issues (no personal property damaged, better fire codes, credit card on file, not happening in a residential area, etc). And I didn't say (b). Rather, I said AirBnb didn't force them to let strangers into their home; it was their decision. AirBnb approved the people, sure -- but so did the apartment owner. EDIT: In response to your addition -- AirBnb doesn't verify they won't do something bad (they can't see the future). Rather, it means that AirBnb has verified they are who they said they are. So, AirBnb can now go to the police with that information.
- 13y ago

smsm42 13y ago

No, hotel regulations are there because hotel owners lobby the lawmakers to protect their business and exclude competition. Nothing in the hotel regulations could prevent somebody from inviting people in and having a wild sex party. Of course, eventually they'd be thrown out, and possibly billed for damages, but there's no way to prevent it upfront.

tesseractive 13y ago
It's not just for the benefit of hotel owners. Cities typically charge huge taxes on hotel stays, so illicit hotels are dodging taxes. And there are actually some vestiges of regulations directed at protecting consumers from hotels that are firetraps, lack adequate ventilation, etc.
- smsm42 13y ago
  Well, you're right, that too. Though I'm not sure what this tax is for - i.e. what exactly is it except "these people do not live here, so they aren't our voters, so fleecing them a bit won't hurt"?
  - tesseractive 13y ago
    Yes, that's exactly what that kind of tax is for.
JohnTHaller 13y ago
Maybe you should look up the rash of hotel fires before some of those regulations were put on the books. Or consider the fact that many of our homes are in apartment buildings and we didn't sign on to have an illegal hotel in the apartment next door.
- smsm42 13y ago
  What fires have to do with it? The OP didn't complain about fire. It complained about his guests inviting other people, having wild sex party and trashing the apartment. Tell me that never happened in hotels. You make it sound like OP was running a crime syndicate there. He just let people stay in his place for a couple of nights. People do it all the time. I did it many times for my friends and was the beneficiary of the same many times. One time he trusted wrong people's recommendation and it didn't work out. It could as well happen to anybody - you could trust your best friend's friend and let him stay at your place and he could invite his pals and turn the place upside down. Nothing to do with fire codes.

andrewhillman 13y ago

This happens all the time in hotels. Where do you think a good chunk of xxx movies are shot? I will answer this for you - HOTELS or any homes producers have access to before deadline. This wont be the first, second or last time either.

shin_lao 13y ago

I agree with what you say, with a limit. The problem is what "verified" means. It seems it only means that AirBnB only checked that the person is who they are and they have some credit card on file. The problem is the way it appears conveys more trust than it should because verified appears in way that says "secure". I agree it's not what it says, but still, that's how it "appears". It sounds as if there's some sort of insurance. Speaking of insurance, does AirBnB offer insurance (for a price or not) to its customers? Does the lack of regulations and the gray area prevent this? Let's not forget in the end the victim is the OP. He's probably been careless, but he remains a victim.

hauget 13y ago
Airbnb provides various means of "verification". You can verify a telephone number, an ID, Facebook profile (and even see how many friends the person has). Airbnb also provides references by friends and reviews by Airbnb members. Example:http://imgur.com/yQaSBdO http://imgur.com/yQaSBdO Some of these verifications are optional, and as far as I know only a number, email and sometimes an ID are compulsory. The fundamental issue at hand is whether the OP is at fault for being too naive, not checking for proper verifications and simply choosing to trust the renter based on the info he/she provided. Personally, I don't think Airbnb is at fault. (did the OP even bother to talk to the renter over the phone?). I personally love using Airbnb and will continue to use it. What is continually a worry for me is is the lack of common sense people have when renting out their homes to complete strangers. What would have been the difference if this person was simply running an illegal bed & breakfast in his apartment and this happened? I feel sorry for the OP, but if you just choose to trust "strangers" and not take proper precautions and then expect Airbnb to have all the blame, then you're just kinda of a moron.