12 ms·

Dear AirBNB, No thank you for the XXX Freak Fest

420 points by joshmn 13y ago

girvo 13y ago
"...worldly possessions tossed in a pile into the common area, while a group of strangers form a pile to have their private areas tossed." I would've gone with "...while a group of strangers have their piles tossed". It's cleaner(?). All joking aside, this is why I refuse to participate in AirBnB. It's just not worth the non-negligible risk of very bad things happening. It's a great idea, yeah, and they've done super well, and a lot of people are exceedingly happy with it all. However, I'm not one of them, and I don't think these risks can be removed--having a stranger (or heck, even a friend!) stay in your house while you are not there is inherently risky no matter what regulations are in place.
camus2 13y ago
lol!sorry but that's funny!Well, if I were a porn producer,it would be a cheap way to rent new locations to shoot porn flicks for sure!
thirsteh 13y ago
I'm struggling to understand how this is AirBnB's fault? Do we expect them to detect when people are lying?
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Whose responsibility is it, then?
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    The person who committed fraud to get the rental, then caused $87K in damages while in possession of the rental.
    - fennecfoxen 13y ago
      Fault is a complex matter, especially when you're talking legal fault, moderated by contracts.
      - thirsteh 13y ago
        (I don't know anything about AirBnB's terms of use, etc., but I would assume that they rid themselves of as much liability as possible.) It just seems like blaming AirBnB here is akin to blaming Google Search because you found the renter there, or Craigslist, or...
        smsm42 13y ago
        That would be true if the only service AirBnB were marketing was search and publishing - like Craigslist. But they also advertise selection and insurance.
- RaphiePS 13y ago
  He mentioned that the positive reviews could be fake. So, it seems that Airbnb should be more rigorously vetting guests.
  - philwelch 13y ago
    Or, if you want to commandeer someone's apartment for a XXX sex fest, you start off by AirBnb'ing legitimately a few times to get a positive rating.
    - hendzen 13y ago
      Someone at AirBnB needs to read up on Sybil attacks :)
    - Crito 13y ago
      If you have an entire club of XXX sex fest freaks, you could likely easily get fake reviews by having your other club members sign up for AirBNB, all "stay" at each others places, and all leave positive reviews for each other.
      - dangrossman 13y ago
        The tough part is convincing one of them to get verified before destroying someone's apartment. It's pretty hard to walk away from the damages after giving up your payment info, a copy of your drivers license, and a link to an established (not newly created) social media profile on Facebook or LinkedIn, which are part of AirBNB's verification.
        gknoy 13y ago
        I'm surprised the blogger in question isn't asking for AirBNB's help finding David and suing him for damages directly. Wouldn't such actions be fraud?
- kranner 13y ago
  That's what the 'verified' status would seem to imply.
  - thirsteh 13y ago
    And if I use AirBnB legitimately for a while, then decide to do this, then what? It's AirBnB's fault for matchmaking? That seems similar to blaming Google Search, not the site itself, for returning a site that has ranked well for a long time, but has just now started serving malware.
    - kranner 13y ago
      Your point is fair, but IMO it would not be incorrect to blame both the site as well as Google Search, obviously for different reasons. 'Verified' should eventually mean verified, with no qualifiers. If it can't be guaranteed then it's better to say so. edit: I see from jamesroseman's comment below that 'verified' only means that their ID is verified, not the reason they require the accommodation. (https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/450 https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/450) If that's clear from the UI (and not just buried in a FAQ), it invalidates my point.
    - rdl 13y ago
      Or I hack a legitimate user's AirBnB account. Pretty much any one.
  - jasonlotito 13y ago
    No. The verified status means that the person provided an "offline ID, online ID, profile photo, email address, and phone number. " It doesn't verify against people lying about their intentions.
- jamesroseman 13y ago
  I think I understand your point of view, it was my initial point of view as well. I thought, "well, you used a website that offers to connect you with people who want to use your home and you blame the website for the person who ruined your home instead of that actual person?". The author here will probably pursue legal recourse against that individual as well. It's a two-part problem: 1.) The leaser may have violated the lease as laid out by the author by effectively ruining the home. 2.) AirBNB reported a leaser as 'verified', which is important because of the implication that the leaser won't do certain things like ruin your home during their stay. Unfortunately per 2, this isn't actually what AirBNB claims to mean by "verified" [0]. It's unfortunate because of what happened, but you are indeed correct -- technically speaking AirBNB is not responsible here. It sucks, and it certainly means I won't be using AirBNB, but they've done their job of protecting themselves. [0] https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/450 https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/450
gkoberger 13y ago
Unfortunately, this is why there's hotel regulations. I think AirBnb is net-good, but it certainly is going to make a few people's lives miserable in the meantime. Hopefully AirBnb finds a way to mitigate these issues. That being said, I guarantee you were violating your lease when you used AirBnb. And, you approved the person to stay in your house. If anyone should be mad, it's your neighbors and apartment owner -- they followed the rules. This is really unfortunate, but it's not all AirBnb's fault.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Hopefully AirBnb finds a way to mitigate these issues. Perhaps with rules? Of the type one might describe as "regulations"?
  - sp332 13y ago
    Imposing rules on your own users for the good of your other users is not at all the same thing as imposing rules on everyone for the good of those who paid for your reelection campaign.
    - ewoodrich 13y ago
      What if those same rules were applied industry-wide for the good of users of AirBnb and other services? At what point does it morph into a corrupt regulation?
      - NoPiece 13y ago
        Mutual agreement vs imposition
      - baddox 13y ago
        My initial thought is to draw the line at rules which are enforced by a group that uses violence to prevent other groups from offering alternative rules and/or is funded by taxation.
NDizzle 13y ago
If David would have just invited him all this drama could have been avoided. Huge party foul, David.
dpeck 13y ago
FYI: should be obvious from the title, but NSFW images in post
jamra 13y ago
I would like the blogger to post a follow up on how AirBnB will respond. I've heard of multiple incidents of damage to the property, but have never read about the follow up. I suspect that a hush hush settlement was made. Is there a kind of insurance that AirBnB sets up or is it completely on the renter's dime?
- argonaut 13y ago
  http://lmgtfy.com/?q=airbnb+insurance http://lmgtfy.com/?q=airbnb+insurance tldr; Yes, there is insurance.
  - jzwinck 13y ago
    Actually, "sort of." There is insurance in the US (where the article was written), but not everywhere. If I visit the page about their "guarantee," I am redirected to the airbnb domain for my country, where that page does not exist. Strangely they even explain at https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/279 https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/279 that the guarantee page will not be accessible if your computer is in a country where they do not offer the guarantee. This is bizarre, because what if I rented out my place, travelled to another country, and then want to read about my protections? If you want to read the legalese, this page seems to work from anywhere: https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee
    - ZoF 13y ago
      Agreed, that is rather bizarre, especially considering the, "What Countries is this available in" section is quite difficult to miss.
  - camus2 13y ago
    there is insurance if you own the appartement,if you rent it,well,there is zip...and the op rents...
- huffman 13y ago
  To be a little more helpful, they've partnered with Lloyd's of London to provide a nice insurance policy for all renters: https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee
argonaut 13y ago
AirBnB has an insurance policy to compensate for cases like this. Color me cynical, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the blogger. If you have a landlord (i.e. you don't personally own the building), and you aren't there to personally meet and be around the guests, then you are knowingly taking on the risk that the guests will be sketchy and that you will be evicted, even if you are allowed subleses (not to mention that you almost always aren't).
- stormbrew 13y ago
  Even if you are allowed subleasing on your own lease, there are probably also minimum stay requirements by law to get out of being considered a hotel/b&b/whatever with taxes and insurance requirements. I think it's pretty hard to use AirBnB without breaking some kind of law, unfortunately. Of course never mind that some of the people doing this in bigger cities like SF are already illegally subletted themselves to someone who's probably paying a rent controlled price.
- JohnTHaller 13y ago
  > AirBnB has an insurance policy to compensate for cases like this. Not quite. AirBnb specifically excludes things you don't own. So, while they would be responsible for the original poster's stuff, any damage done to the apartment itself, paint, floors, appliances, walls, hallways, doors, bathroom, fixtures, any furnishings that were already in the apt, etc would not appear to be covered. > PLEASE CAREFULLY REVIEW THE DEFINITIONS OF “COVERED ACCOMMODATION,” “COVERED LOSSES,” “EXCLUDED ACCOMMODATION,” AND “EXCLUDED PROPERTY” BELOW. THESE DEFINITIONS ARE ESPECIALLY SIGNIFICANT IF YOUR ACCOMMODATION IS A CONDOMINIUM, TOWNHOUSE, CO-OPERATIVE, APARTMENT, OR ANY OTHER UNIT IN A MULTIPLE-DWELLING STRUCTURE, COMPLEX, AND/OR DEVELOPMENT. TO THE EXTENT THIS HOST GUARANTEE COVERS REAL PROPERTY, IT COVERS ONLY REAL PROPERTY THAT YOU OWN.
  - randartie 13y ago
    I imagine a lot of the people on AirBnb happen to list their room when actually they do not own the building (renters). I wonder how many would still continue listing if they knew that AirBnbs insurance doesn't actually cover them.
anon03162014 13y ago
my super is having me evicted by my landlord I assume that your lease prohibits subleases without the consent of your landlord.
- fennecfoxen 13y ago
  Even with a lease permitting subletting through AirBnB (something becoming more common) this might very well be cause for eviction.
danso 13y ago
> I enjoy a “Festival” as much as the next fellow, but this is a family building and some people don’t enjoy having their neighbor’s worldly possessions tossed in a pile into the common area, while a group of strangers form a pile to have their private areas tossed. As such, I’m going to be evicted. > > You’re going to pay my moving expenses, because my landlord is certainly going to make me move after an “XXX Freak Fest” (and I can’t look these guys in the eye after this either). In New York, it is illegal for you to rent out your apartment while you are gone. Besides that detail, how can the OP's landlord evict him, unless there was something in the lease saying such renting was not allowed? Can the OP post the relevant portion of his leasing agreement?
- sitharus 13y ago
  > In New York, it is illegal for you to rent out your apartment while you are gone. Pretty sure that's the reason. Also NY state has laws requiring a minimum stay in a property that isn't zoned as a hotel. In any case, if you break the law relating to your rental it's fairly easy for a landlord to terminate the lease.
stormbrew 13y ago
I love airbnb, have used it in the past, but I have a really hard time sympathizing with this or seeing it as AirBnB's fault. This is always a risk if you let people you don't know (or hell, even people you do know) into your home. It kind of sounds like this person never even bothered to meet the people who were renting his apartment (I was always shocked when someone rented me their apartment without meeting me, personally). Nothing airbnb can ever do will guarantee something like this won't happen to you. That's why you have to also do whatever you can to protect yourself. If you wouldn't be comfortable with the precautions you took had you found the renter on craigslist, you shouldn't be doing it. Of course, airbnb will probably pull out from their own insurance on this for this person because the likely result of not doing so enough times for them is that more places make it clearer that it's largely illegal to do it and start enforcing more zealously.
- girvo 13y ago
  While you're sort of correct, in my opinion AirBnB should be liable for something like this. It might make them take better steps to prevent it. You're not going to stop it 100% of the time, but there are plenty of horror stories here, and that's turned me off from ever trying it personally.
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  What does meeting the renter personally accomplish? You won't be able to tell that he is planning a XXX Freak Fest tomorrow. Even if you do, cancelling the reservation after meeting him might get you kicked out of AirBNB as a host.
  - stormbrew 13y ago
    It's certainly not a catch-all, but it can help. It strikes me as the very least you can do. And there are other measures you can take, like having a neighbour (or hell, if you're actually doing it legally, your super) keep an eye on things. The point is simply that if you abdicate all effort to ensure your house is kept well to a corporation that barely knows either of you are people, you're more likely to get this stuff happening. No one makes anyone be an airbnb host. And if you met a potential guest and thought they might be planning to host an orgy in your house as soon as you left, I'm gonna say you might want to risk getting kicked off airbnb rather than risk having your house trashed. That's just me, though.
ZoF 13y ago
I don't see how this is AirBnB's fault, at least to the degree that's implied. You rented out your apartment to a stranger on the internet based upon what other strangers on the internet said about them. You almost certainly broke the terms of the lease in the process and probably deserved to be kicked out even if you hadn't had an "XXX freak fest" thrown. Sure, AirBnB should try and figure out the damages, charge the accounts credit card(guarantee that won't work) and the pursue damages(good luck). This is why people have renter's insurance(doubt you thought of it as you were probably trying to do this illegally anyway). This is also why this industry is regulated, because when it's not humans get pwnt by their own stupidity combined with the malice of other humans. At the end of the day for a lot of people AirBnB is a way to make easy money under the table, that's why there's little to no regulation; yeah that regulation comes with taxes/overhead, but it also comes with protection from the hazards of the business. It's pretty fucked logic to take such a huge risk with your property, give it zero protection, and then be not only surprised, but furious(with the site connecting you to the offender not the offender themself), when shit goes down. How dense can you be. TL;DR- AirBnB pays for these situations anyway[0], this drama post is made by someone who took a huge risk in renting an apt without insurance, without a face-to-face, and probably not in accordance with his/her lease. The post will probably result in a faster payout, but the entitlement is slightly annoying considering the circumstances. [0]-https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee
- Kequc 13y ago
  There are absolutely tons of people more dense than the OP, tons. Vast parades of dense people. So it's a little bit unwarranted to really come down this hard on him. On the other hand it is these vast parades of dense people who keep voting for less regulation as a whole. So I can appreciate the need to come down hard on them. But this guy doesn't seem like the guy honestly. AirBNB is a business model used by millions, they take a huge or even really huge cut just for being the middle man. You expect a tiered amount of "XXX Freak Fests" rolling through your apartment.
  - clarky07 13y ago
    Tell me how regulation solves this? Why is it that this couldn't happen in a hotel? (Guarantee it does all the time) There isn't any regulation that can fix people being jackasses. This isn't AirBNB's fault, and it isn't the OP's fault. It's the jackass who held the party fault. Could the OP have done things differently? Sure. It's likely the sublet wasn't entirely legal, and it's likely he could have renter's insurance. That being said, his insurance still probably shouldn't have to pay it. That is what AirBNB's cut should be covering. And I'm sure they will in fact cover it, as this is really bad publicity for them. The only reason for this post is to make that money get there faster.
__pThrow 13y ago
Can someone explain why we should think this tumblr post has any credibility?
- dangrossman 13y ago
  Because it contains ample verifiable evidence.
  - __pThrow 13y ago
    That's not actually a response. You are just restating the premise. And exercising your right to be snide. What is the ample verifiable evidence in the post?
    - dangrossman 13y ago
      The tweet by the "BBW party promoter" is on twitter; you can view it there. The account has 5 years of history tweeting about sex parties. The address of a residence is in the tweet. You can do a Google search and see the previous real estate listings for the residential condos/apartments at that address. You can look at it on Google Maps to see that it's a real address and not some kind of sex club. The "porn star" profile of the party organizer that tweeted, screenshotted, is there on Xvideos; you can look it up and view it yourself. The screenshots of the booking conversations through Airbnb are included as well, which Airbnb can confirm actually took place. These are all evidence supporting the story, and all of these pieces of evidence can be verified by third parties. That's verifiable evidence, which is what I said. "Restating the premise" means to restate the base of your argument. I argued the opposite, that the post does have credibility. Sorry that you felt I was being snide by disagreeing.
      - __pThrow 13y ago
        The tweet is verifiable. That a porn party took place at that residence seems likely. There is no verification this occurred over airbnb. There is no verification that the tweets were by anyone other than the resident or owner and no verification that the tumblr post was written by the resident. All of this, including the tweet, could be a pretty simple hoax. And worse, it's from tumblr. The premise you restated was the basic post itself: Hey! This shit happened to me. I asked, why should we believe this. You said, "Because shit happened to that guy!" Until airbnb responds we have no reason to give this anecdote any credence. And you were totally snide. Your apology is disingenuous. "Sorry you felt I was being snide" is not an apology. It is a faux apology.
guiomie 13y ago
This is fucked up. 87k of damages ... doesn't that seem a lot?
- joshmlewis 13y ago
  I would imagine most of that is rent you are liable for if you are evicted. At least $2k+ a month for x amount of months. If they had decent furniture that could add up quickly as well, but $80k does seem like a lot unless they are including 'emotional' damages which at that point is hard to quantify.
  - tlrobinson 13y ago
    Wait, if you're evicted you're liable for all the rent for the remainder of the lease?
    - FireBeyond 13y ago
      Typically, you're responsible, if it's a lease, for the rent until the property is re-leased, with the assumption that the landlord makes all reasonable efforts to do so expediently.
  - thirsteh 13y ago
    Probably $4k-6k+ per month for a 7th Ave "luxury" studio with a back yard.
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    Zillow estimates rent at that address as $6700/month, with the 2 bedroom condos in that building selling for over $2 million. Another listing at the same address was renting for $7950/month.
    - joshmlewis 13y ago
      Wow, yeah that definitely makes up for it then. I didn't really look too much into how much.
lionhearted 13y ago
A potentially interesting thread of discussion -- Who has ideas on how to handle customer service and public perception in an industry where the downside of a single bad event is the mix of horrific, intimate, and very newsworthy? Even if the rate of AirBNB disasters was only 1 disaster for every 1 million successful rentals, you'd still get very sticky disaster stories coming out regularly. Similar to how the evening news covers all the murders and trauma in the world, potentially inflating our perception of how often it happens.. Any general thoughts on what's required to thrive if you're in an industry where things will go wrong even if you do best practices conservatively everywhere, and the "going wrong" scenario is both quite bad and quite public?
bredren 13y ago
This is obviously a bad situation. No one wants this to happen. (Except perhaps the FF participants) There have been plenty of bad situations at hotels as well, though. I'm most interested in the final paragraph. All because I trusted AirBNB that this individual was a “Verified” member with multiple positive reviews... AirBnB has pioneered some of the workflow for establishing and communicating social proof. P2P requires trusted reputation. If the story is as described, it appears AirBnB failed to provide a trustful counter-party. And it went very wrong as a result.
- rayiner 13y ago
  > There have been plenty of bad situations at hotels as well, though. Sure, but hotels are regulated and licensed and zoned so they keep those bad situations away from residential areas. > AirBnB has pioneered some of the workflow for establishing and communicating and social proof. It's really an open question of whether "reputation economies" are workable at all. I continue to be disappointed by user ratings on services like Yelp. I wouldn't trust anything more substantive than a new restaurant pick to such ratings.
  - joshmlewis 13y ago
    But with Yelp they don't verify you've actually eaten at a restaurant or visited a business so it is very much up in the air and their stance is we don't spend our time verifying or taking up false claims so you're stuck. I've experienced this first hand helping businesses with their social media. It sucks a lot. The only way to have sure reviews is to have some kind of receipt verification or pass the payment through the service so that you know for sure this person is paying for this service which AirBnB does. So there is a big difference from AirBnB reviews and reviews on Yelp and other sites that let you post without real proof.
  - baddox 13y ago
    > Sure, but hotels are regulated and licensed and zoned so they keep those bad situations away from residential areas. Is it any better that hotel guests might have to stay near this sort of behavior?
bilbo0s 13y ago
One, I would definitely evict and sue this blogger as well if I was the landlord. Two, how the AirBNB user the blogger rented to is "Verified" with multiple positive reviews needs to be investigated. Whatever weakness they are exploiting in the AirBNB review system needs to be eliminated. Lastly, I am sorry this happened... but the reality is... this is the reason you shouldn't be using AirBNB. This could have turned out much worse to be perfectly frank.
LeafyGreenbriar 13y ago
Airbnb will almost certainly cover the damages: https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee. He might not have as much luck getting them to pay his relocation costs, since I'm sure that renting out his apartment was against his lease anyway. The real problem for this guy is going to be finding another landlord in Manhattan who will rent to him, unless he is extremely wealthy, of course.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  If Zillow's estimates are at all accurate, the building at that address is full of $2M+ condos that rent for $6-8K/month. He mentions the doorman; he's probably pretty well off to afford living there.
coofluence 13y ago
This is exact reason why AirBnB like services cannot succeed in India. You could be in jail, as the police here will never understand why you allowed someone into your house if you are not a hotel. The attitude of police here is that if anything goes wrong, the owner of the house or business is responsible. To illustrate, in 2004, early days of e-commerce in India, someone put up a certain CD to be sold on e-Bay. The police just arrested the CEO of eBay India. When something goes wrong police here arrests biggest possible names either to show its working or extract maximum corruption money. Any wonder why Indian startups cannot go beyond providing services to foreign businesses for cheap? To be fair, many startups are innovating in India, but the point is the kind of challenges they have to deal with are just unknown to the more developed world. eBay news link from 2004: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2902203/India-throws-Ebay-chief-into-prison.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2902203/India-throws-Ebay...
aosmith 13y ago
Wonder how the "million dollar" insurance policy will work out for this guy...
ChuckMcM 13y ago
That's a sad story. Clearly not a common occurrence (at least not common enough to be "oh another airbnb trashed my place" type response). So what happens next will be interesting. Presumably AirBnB's insurance will make the renter whole again. Also presumably their ability to identify the person responsible will allow them to press charges against them, I suspect there are codes against charging cover charges for a sex party (I vaguely remember the controversy over the sex club in LA about this, something about indirect solicitation but that was like in the 70's so I'd really have to go back and dig it up.) It seems like the 'TWINN' character was reasonably well connected in this community and perhaps if a great big hassle comes his way it will discourage others from that community in using AirBnB that way. Definitely a wild story though.
andr 13y ago
AirBnB has a $1,000,000 insurance on every booking. Yes, what happened sucks, but the guy should raise noise if AirBnB refuses to cover his damages. For what it's worth, claiming your host insurance with AirBnB is part of doing business with them.
- bdcravens 13y ago
  There's been a few other comments that point out that a condition of the insurance is that you must own the property, or have permission to rent it out, which author didn't. To the policy as it's written, this would be an uncovered claim.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  For the amount he's demanding, I'm pretty sure they'll pass it on to their lawyers and let him twist in the wind. He doesn't have much of a case.
devnonymous 13y ago
whoa whoa ..it isn't AirBnB's fault, it is google's ! ..not wait, it is the fault of the interwebs ..ehe, so Gore ? Yep, that's it, Gore set the XXX Freak Fest to your place. Jeez !
rdl 13y ago
I'm amazed it has taken so long for something like this to happen. It's almost worse than MethBNB. Does it happen more frequently but AirBnB just quietly pays out? Or is my perception of how horrible 1% of the world is inaccurately calibrated? Hack AirBnB accounts, until you find a nice renter who has a place with (presumably) nice stuff who will hand off keys to you without physically meeting, then clear it out, or destroy it like this, or something else. I'd be assuming that would happen 1:1000 rentals, but maybe that's paranoia. Still, while I feel sorry for the renter here, I feel even worse for his landlord and neighbors, who should sue him, and get part of that $1mm.
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  That doesn't make any sense. Just choose a random house with valuable stuff in it, break in and clear it out? Getting past the door is the least of your problems, why go all that trouble with AirBNB? It doesn't make it less of a crime.
  - rdl 13y ago
    It gives you a window of time when you know the owners won't be home. Burglary is way safer (and legally less punished) than robbery.
vacri 13y ago
The stress and fear that a large band of “XXX Freak Fest” individuals have my address and keys to my home is unreal Do they not have locksmiths in NYC?
EGreg 13y ago
Wait, is it even legal to use AirBNB in NYC? latest is this: http://www.thenewyorkworld.com/2013/10/24/airbnb/ http://www.thenewyorkworld.com/2013/10/24/airbnb/ ??
holyjaw 13y ago
Why did this become a blog post, and not a conversation with AirBnB's customer service and legal departments? Unnecessarily jumping that gap is what makes me seriously doubt the pure validity of his claims.
johnchristopher 13y ago
> I am looking for a place for my brother and sister in law who visiting for a wedding this weekend. I just don’t have the space for them. Shouldn't the writing style be a red flag ?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
tmuir 13y ago
This exposes a big flaw in the entire premise of AirBnB. AirBnB's core market is people renting out their homes when they aren't there. This problem is inherent to providing unsupervised hospitality. If no one is there to verify customers beyond meaningless internet reputations, no one is there to prevent your possessions from being destroyed. Fixing this problem quickly turns you into a business with employees, running a hotel. Regulations are about more than just taxes.
- chii 13y ago
  you make liable the parties that did the damage. airbnb could take a bond from the renter (to cover damages, if any), or get something hard to forge such as an ID card of some sort, and recover the damage from them should it occur.
growt 13y ago
So these fucking strangers turned out to be literally fucking strangers.
goldenkey 13y ago
87k seems like a lot of money in damages. If the poster is already living the rich life, why be greedy and AirBNB for even more cash? Greed is the root of all evil. I do not feel any sympathy.
pm24601 13y ago
Well I am sorry for the OP. But posts like this make it clear: I will not use AirBnB. It isn't worth the cost. Even if AirBnB pays the (no doubt depreciated) cost of the damage; I don't want my prized possessions trashed. (or worse). Thank god there wasn't a fire!
jlebrech 13y ago
You shouldn't be using rented property on airbnb, the solution to this is owning the property and then checking up on the occupants and being the super yourself.
latj 13y ago
My two favorite bits are: -- You sent an “XXX Freak Fest” into my home By which joshmn means "I invited an XXX Freak Fest into my home in exchange for money." -- As such, I’m going to be evicted. Its subtle enough that you miss it the first time you read it until later when you get to 'my landlord is certainly going to make me move after an “XXX Freak Fest”'. Yup, joshmn has in fact not been evicted. So, lets summarize. You went on a website, found a stranger, accepted money in exchange for your keys. Then they messed with your furniture. Now you want $87k. Oh, and you have trouble looking at people in the eyes. I am checking with my attorney to see if there is any legal recourse I can take to recover the last five minutes of my life.
- ricardobeat 13y ago
  AirBNB has insurance for cases like this. It's not much different from getting a hotel room, would you say a hotel's management was stupid if this happened at their property? > "You went on a website, found a stranger, accepted money in exchange for your keys. Then they messed with your furniture. Now you want $87k." Try re-reading that phrase in the context of a standard long-term apartment lease. What's strange or stupid about that?
  - mikeryan 13y ago
    In a long term lease I'm personally meeting the renter, running a credit check, getting references from previous land lords and/or friend, an up front security deposit equal to 3 months rent, not furnishing the apartment and insuring the apartment against any additional damages. A standard long-term apartment lease situation is considerably different.
    - ricardobeat 13y ago
      Renting fully furnished homes is common in many countries. AirBNB charges upfront, keeps your CC data on file, has references from previews hosts, and allows landlords to collect a security deposit if wanted. Looks about the same to me.
k-mcgrady 13y ago
It's likely that by hosting anyone through AirBnB the OP was violating the terms of their lease agreement. So technically it's not who they hosted that's the problem, it's that they hosted anyone at all and that's the real reason for eviction. As for the damages to property AirBnB should help recover those losses from the person who rented the apartment.
adnam 13y ago
I'm constantly amazed that people will rent out their own homes to total strangers, and then blame Airbnb when things like this happen.
heidijavi 13y ago
I don't doubt about the story, but has anyone find out what's the URL of the Airbnb place?
bowlofpetunias 13y ago
Although this is disturbing regardless, someone who puts a rented apartment (i.e., someone else's property) on AirBnB and then complains about abuse by others strikes me as extremely hypocritical.
lafar6502 13y ago
oh, I'm really sorry for stuffed animals. They probably thought stuffing was the last time they were abused.
dm2 13y ago
You're basically operating a business when you rent out your home. Unless AirBNB has a large amount of assurances that you will be protected then you need to do your own due diligence and ensure that you have insurance, gather identification, and that what you are doing is legal. As far as I know, operating as a hotel without a license is not legal in NYC. Just like walking a tightrope across two building in NYC is illegal without sufficient permits and people to ensure it's done safely and responsibly. Your landlord might not evict you if you explain the situation and ensure them that there is no way this will happen again, you've learned your lesson. If that doesn't work, sue the people who stayed in your place. If that doesn't work, sue AirBNB. They might both claim that acting as a hotel in NYC was illegal and you're screwed for taking that risk, if so, you've learned an expensive lesson. What kind of contract does AirBNB make people renting sign? I would hope that it explicitly prohibits large gatherings, destroying personal property, and disturbing neighbors, if it doesn't, then it should. Has AirBNB attempted to pass any laws in NYC (and other cities) that provide some type of protection for people renting out their places for a limited period of time? Would it really be that difficult to allow inspections of private residences? There could also be something that requires the home be used by the owner for X months out of the year or that there is a maximum of X separate renters during a year (which might be hard to enforce / prove). Is there a minimum amount of time someone has to rent a residence before it can be considered a sublease? Maybe you should only do that until laws protecting you are passed.
vermooten 13y ago
A question I've been mulling about Airbnb since it started: who TF allows total strangers to stay at their home????
prawn 13y ago
Firstly, it comes to mind that someone could easily orchestrate a series of incidents like this to impair Airbnb's potential, especially in a particular location. If they deny a payout, anyone who doesn't own their place will think again. Secondly, admittedly Booking.com and so on don't "verify" a customer beyond email and credit card, but it's hard to imagine a hotel piping up like this for being referred a dodgy customer.
spoiledtechie 13y ago
What's wrong with all of you? A year ago it was a woman, under almost the same circumstances that had her apartment vandalized. You all rallied behind her. Now since it seems its a man and and ranted online under pretty much the same circumstances, but different type of people, you say its not airBnBs fault? that's truly disappointing.
- ubercore 13y ago
  There's a way to make your point without saying things like "all of you".
- kevinpet 13y ago
  Very different circumstances. For one, the SF poster a year ago had contacted AirBnB and was reporting on their complete lack of assistance. This article seems to be saying that AirBnB is supposed to do the impossible -- vet people more thoroughly than reviews from their previous stays.
tbarbugli 13y ago
Got anything from airbnb yet? Very curious to know how is this going to end
DanielBMarkham 13y ago
Hotels constantly deal with their rooms being a location for prostitution, drug dealing, porn films, and so on. People who lend out their personal property are constantly lending it to people who are rude, lying, and destroy it -- often causing them great harm and psychological damages. I'm not sure what part of this is AirBnB's problem. It's like blaming GMail for letting you meet that nice kid online who borrowed your car and then totaled it. Huh? Now if the author had made some extended argument that AirBnB was somehow guaranteeing his property's safety? Might make a little more sense. But AirBnB isn't an insurance company, or a private security service. The most I'd expect from them would be 1) solid identification on who the person is looking for the room, and 2) dependable (non-fake) reviews from previous experiences. You have to remember that even people who are great borrowers-of-things will, on occasion, really screw the pooch. You can go for ten years being the pillar of the community and then lose it all on a month-long drug binge. It happens. So I don't think you're ever going to get rid of the occasional bad experience. It would be interesting to see if something evolves in this area, perhaps an insurance policy or city-wide micro-term security service.
uptown 13y ago
I'm amazed the guy still has his listing online. It's here if anyone is interested: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1058615 https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1058615
- uptown 13y ago
  update: And it's pulled.
jgalt212 13y ago
If I were a cynic, here's how I would read the upvoted comments: Regulations are bad when then they impair a YC company's ability to make money.
jellicle 13y ago
Amusing Hacker News cognitive dissonance: - "AirBNB is great! Will revolutionize the world! Stupid hotels just take your money for no reason! Regulations are only there because governments hate you and want to oppress you! By next week, 7 billion people will be using AirBNB to rent their homes to each other! And it's totally safe, because AirBNB stands behind each and every transaction!" -- "Stupid poster, she should know that AirBNB is absolutely unsafe. She bore 100% of the risk and of course she should never have used this service. She was violating her lease and deserves everything that happened to her. Shooting is too good for her; hanging is too good for her. None of this is AirBNB's fault; they had literally nothing to do with the transaction and it's impossible to understand why the poster would ever have thought they did."
- solve 13y ago
  You've got it all wrong, hacker news is very consistent. Whatever the topic, everyone must argue against the OP.
- nulagrithom 13y ago
  I upvoted because I found it interesting, not because I agree that it's AirBnB's fault nor because I think AirBnB's service is flawless.
- RealGeek 13y ago
  I am shocked to see everyone rallying against the victim because he may have violated his lease terms. If that is the excuse AirBNB have, they should not be doing business in the cities where their business model is not 100% compliant local laws. How does the lease terms even matter in this incident? It's not like David vandalized her apartment because he figured the host is violating lease terms and he deserve this? Do you really think that David would have cancelled his XXX fest if the host's lease terms allowed subletting? This would have happened to him even if he was 100% compliant with lease terms and local law. AirBNB should take responsibility for it and do the right thing. AirBNB should caution their hosts and customers about risks like these instead of lying them about 100% guarantee. Moreover, it should be AirBNB's responsibility to ensure that every single listing and transaction is 100% compliant with the local laws. Ebay doesn't let me sell drugs or other illegal items. AirBNB should do business
ar7hur 13y ago
So you think you can make $710 renting your studio for two nights without any risk of this kind of thing happening? Wake up, man. No risk, no reward.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
I sometimes wonder why this doesn't happen a lot more often... Anyway, people seem to be much more trustworthy, which is why airbnb is still going strong. Until more legislations make it illegal to rent out apartments as quasi-hotels...
Duhck 13y ago
Firstly, as others stated, you took a risk and likely violated your lease as well as NYC law. With that said, this tidbit from your listing is a brilliant indicator of how you inevitably brought this issue onto yourself: "You may host up to 50 people in the backyard or apartment, but please leave $80USD so I can pay a cleaning lady to clean the extra mess." Did they pay the extra $80USD? You invited them to bring 50 people over, I am sorry for what happened, but I don't feel sorry for you...
- goldbeck 13y ago
  After confirming this with a quick google, I'm having trouble not "blaming the victim" here. It's sometimes the case with ridiculous things happening to people, that there's "more to the story", and that certainly seems to be the case here. The poster willfully assumed additional risk on top of the standard AirBNB risk, and it's that additional risk that bit him. Telling someone you've never met that they can bring 50 people(!?!) into your apartment, and just assuming that things won't get out of hand, is... naive.
eplanit 13y ago
To quote Nelson Muntz: "Haw haw!". Hey, I've got an idea, let's treat our home like a hotel room and rent it out to strangers... what could possibly go wrong?
foobarian 13y ago
How on earth did this incident cause $85k in damages? They just dumped a bunch of furniture out. Was it really expensive furniture?
crystaln 13y ago
This is like accusing craigslist of causing murder through its dating forum. Any time you rent a place out you face this risk.
mamoswined 13y ago
I always wondered about pre-approved AirBnBs, which based on the screenshot is what this one was. I usually don't pick them because I feel that if a host doesn't actively screen, that it's a very bad sign. And by actively screen I mean look at my facebook, twitter, etc.

420 points by joshmn 13y ago

girvo 13y ago

"...worldly possessions tossed in a pile into the common area, while a group of strangers form a pile to have their private areas tossed." I would've gone with "...while a group of strangers have their piles tossed". It's cleaner(?). All joking aside, this is why I refuse to participate in AirBnB. It's just not worth the non-negligible risk of very bad things happening. It's a great idea, yeah, and they've done super well, and a lot of people are exceedingly happy with it all. However, I'm not one of them, and I don't think these risks can be removed--having a stranger (or heck, even a friend!) stay in your house while you are not there is inherently risky no matter what regulations are in place.

camus2 13y ago

lol!sorry but that's funny!Well, if I were a porn producer,it would be a cheap way to rent new locations to shoot porn flicks for sure!

thirsteh 13y ago

I'm struggling to understand how this is AirBnB's fault? Do we expect them to detect when people are lying?

sliverstorm 13y ago
Whose responsibility is it, then?
- dangrossman 13y ago
  The person who committed fraud to get the rental, then caused $87K in damages while in possession of the rental.
  - fennecfoxen 13y ago
    Fault is a complex matter, especially when you're talking legal fault, moderated by contracts.
    - thirsteh 13y ago
      (I don't know anything about AirBnB's terms of use, etc., but I would assume that they rid themselves of as much liability as possible.) It just seems like blaming AirBnB here is akin to blaming Google Search because you found the renter there, or Craigslist, or...
      - smsm42 13y ago
        That would be true if the only service AirBnB were marketing was search and publishing - like Craigslist. But they also advertise selection and insurance.
RaphiePS 13y ago
He mentioned that the positive reviews could be fake. So, it seems that Airbnb should be more rigorously vetting guests.
- philwelch 13y ago
  Or, if you want to commandeer someone's apartment for a XXX sex fest, you start off by AirBnb'ing legitimately a few times to get a positive rating.
  - hendzen 13y ago
    Someone at AirBnB needs to read up on Sybil attacks :)
  - Crito 13y ago
    If you have an entire club of XXX sex fest freaks, you could likely easily get fake reviews by having your other club members sign up for AirBNB, all "stay" at each others places, and all leave positive reviews for each other.
    - dangrossman 13y ago
      The tough part is convincing one of them to get verified before destroying someone's apartment. It's pretty hard to walk away from the damages after giving up your payment info, a copy of your drivers license, and a link to an established (not newly created) social media profile on Facebook or LinkedIn, which are part of AirBNB's verification.
      - gknoy 13y ago
        I'm surprised the blogger in question isn't asking for AirBNB's help finding David and suing him for damages directly. Wouldn't such actions be fraud?
kranner 13y ago
That's what the 'verified' status would seem to imply.
- thirsteh 13y ago
  And if I use AirBnB legitimately for a while, then decide to do this, then what? It's AirBnB's fault for matchmaking? That seems similar to blaming Google Search, not the site itself, for returning a site that has ranked well for a long time, but has just now started serving malware.
  - kranner 13y ago
    Your point is fair, but IMO it would not be incorrect to blame both the site as well as Google Search, obviously for different reasons. 'Verified' should eventually mean verified, with no qualifiers. If it can't be guaranteed then it's better to say so. edit: I see from jamesroseman's comment below that 'verified' only means that their ID is verified, not the reason they require the accommodation. (https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/450 https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/450) If that's clear from the UI (and not just buried in a FAQ), it invalidates my point.
  - rdl 13y ago
    Or I hack a legitimate user's AirBnB account. Pretty much any one.
- jasonlotito 13y ago
  No. The verified status means that the person provided an "offline ID, online ID, profile photo, email address, and phone number. " It doesn't verify against people lying about their intentions.
jamesroseman 13y ago
I think I understand your point of view, it was my initial point of view as well. I thought, "well, you used a website that offers to connect you with people who want to use your home and you blame the website for the person who ruined your home instead of that actual person?". The author here will probably pursue legal recourse against that individual as well. It's a two-part problem: 1.) The leaser may have violated the lease as laid out by the author by effectively ruining the home. 2.) AirBNB reported a leaser as 'verified', which is important because of the implication that the leaser won't do certain things like ruin your home during their stay. Unfortunately per 2, this isn't actually what AirBNB claims to mean by "verified" [0]. It's unfortunate because of what happened, but you are indeed correct -- technically speaking AirBNB is not responsible here. It sucks, and it certainly means I won't be using AirBNB, but they've done their job of protecting themselves. [0] https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/450 https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/450

gkoberger 13y ago

Unfortunately, this is why there's hotel regulations. I think AirBnb is net-good, but it certainly is going to make a few people's lives miserable in the meantime. Hopefully AirBnb finds a way to mitigate these issues. That being said, I guarantee you were violating your lease when you used AirBnb. And, you approved the person to stay in your house. If anyone should be mad, it's your neighbors and apartment owner -- they followed the rules. This is really unfortunate, but it's not all AirBnb's fault.

sliverstorm 13y ago
Hopefully AirBnb finds a way to mitigate these issues. Perhaps with rules? Of the type one might describe as "regulations"?
- sp332 13y ago
  Imposing rules on your own users for the good of your other users is not at all the same thing as imposing rules on everyone for the good of those who paid for your reelection campaign.
  - ewoodrich 13y ago
    What if those same rules were applied industry-wide for the good of users of AirBnb and other services? At what point does it morph into a corrupt regulation?
    - NoPiece 13y ago
      Mutual agreement vs imposition
    - baddox 13y ago
      My initial thought is to draw the line at rules which are enforced by a group that uses violence to prevent other groups from offering alternative rules and/or is funded by taxation.

NDizzle 13y ago

If David would have just invited him all this drama could have been avoided. Huge party foul, David.

dpeck 13y ago

FYI: should be obvious from the title, but NSFW images in post

jamra 13y ago

I would like the blogger to post a follow up on how AirBnB will respond. I've heard of multiple incidents of damage to the property, but have never read about the follow up. I suspect that a hush hush settlement was made. Is there a kind of insurance that AirBnB sets up or is it completely on the renter's dime?

argonaut 13y ago
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=airbnb+insurance http://lmgtfy.com/?q=airbnb+insurance tldr; Yes, there is insurance.
- jzwinck 13y ago
  Actually, "sort of." There is insurance in the US (where the article was written), but not everywhere. If I visit the page about their "guarantee," I am redirected to the airbnb domain for my country, where that page does not exist. Strangely they even explain at https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/279 https://www.airbnb.com/help/question/279 that the guarantee page will not be accessible if your computer is in a country where they do not offer the guarantee. This is bizarre, because what if I rented out my place, travelled to another country, and then want to read about my protections? If you want to read the legalese, this page seems to work from anywhere: https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/terms/host_guarantee
  - ZoF 13y ago
    Agreed, that is rather bizarre, especially considering the, "What Countries is this available in" section is quite difficult to miss.
- camus2 13y ago
  there is insurance if you own the appartement,if you rent it,well,there is zip...and the op rents...
huffman 13y ago
To be a little more helpful, they've partnered with Lloyd's of London to provide a nice insurance policy for all renters: https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee

argonaut 13y ago

AirBnB has an insurance policy to compensate for cases like this. Color me cynical, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the blogger. If you have a landlord (i.e. you don't personally own the building), and you aren't there to personally meet and be around the guests, then you are knowingly taking on the risk that the guests will be sketchy and that you will be evicted, even if you are allowed subleses (not to mention that you almost always aren't).

stormbrew 13y ago
Even if you are allowed subleasing on your own lease, there are probably also minimum stay requirements by law to get out of being considered a hotel/b&b/whatever with taxes and insurance requirements. I think it's pretty hard to use AirBnB without breaking some kind of law, unfortunately. Of course never mind that some of the people doing this in bigger cities like SF are already illegally subletted themselves to someone who's probably paying a rent controlled price.
JohnTHaller 13y ago
> AirBnB has an insurance policy to compensate for cases like this. Not quite. AirBnb specifically excludes things you don't own. So, while they would be responsible for the original poster's stuff, any damage done to the apartment itself, paint, floors, appliances, walls, hallways, doors, bathroom, fixtures, any furnishings that were already in the apt, etc would not appear to be covered. > PLEASE CAREFULLY REVIEW THE DEFINITIONS OF “COVERED ACCOMMODATION,” “COVERED LOSSES,” “EXCLUDED ACCOMMODATION,” AND “EXCLUDED PROPERTY” BELOW. THESE DEFINITIONS ARE ESPECIALLY SIGNIFICANT IF YOUR ACCOMMODATION IS A CONDOMINIUM, TOWNHOUSE, CO-OPERATIVE, APARTMENT, OR ANY OTHER UNIT IN A MULTIPLE-DWELLING STRUCTURE, COMPLEX, AND/OR DEVELOPMENT. TO THE EXTENT THIS HOST GUARANTEE COVERS REAL PROPERTY, IT COVERS ONLY REAL PROPERTY THAT YOU OWN.
- randartie 13y ago
  I imagine a lot of the people on AirBnb happen to list their room when actually they do not own the building (renters). I wonder how many would still continue listing if they knew that AirBnbs insurance doesn't actually cover them.

anon03162014 13y ago

my super is having me evicted by my landlord I assume that your lease prohibits subleases without the consent of your landlord.

fennecfoxen 13y ago
Even with a lease permitting subletting through AirBnB (something becoming more common) this might very well be cause for eviction.

danso 13y ago

> I enjoy a “Festival” as much as the next fellow, but this is a family building and some people don’t enjoy having their neighbor’s worldly possessions tossed in a pile into the common area, while a group of strangers form a pile to have their private areas tossed. As such, I’m going to be evicted. > > You’re going to pay my moving expenses, because my landlord is certainly going to make me move after an “XXX Freak Fest” (and I can’t look these guys in the eye after this either). In New York, it is illegal for you to rent out your apartment while you are gone. Besides that detail, how can the OP's landlord evict him, unless there was something in the lease saying such renting was not allowed? Can the OP post the relevant portion of his leasing agreement?

sitharus 13y ago
> In New York, it is illegal for you to rent out your apartment while you are gone. Pretty sure that's the reason. Also NY state has laws requiring a minimum stay in a property that isn't zoned as a hotel. In any case, if you break the law relating to your rental it's fairly easy for a landlord to terminate the lease.

stormbrew 13y ago

I love airbnb, have used it in the past, but I have a really hard time sympathizing with this or seeing it as AirBnB's fault. This is always a risk if you let people you don't know (or hell, even people you do know) into your home. It kind of sounds like this person never even bothered to meet the people who were renting his apartment (I was always shocked when someone rented me their apartment without meeting me, personally). Nothing airbnb can ever do will guarantee something like this won't happen to you. That's why you have to also do whatever you can to protect yourself. If you wouldn't be comfortable with the precautions you took had you found the renter on craigslist, you shouldn't be doing it. Of course, airbnb will probably pull out from their own insurance on this for this person because the likely result of not doing so enough times for them is that more places make it clearer that it's largely illegal to do it and start enforcing more zealously.

girvo 13y ago
While you're sort of correct, in my opinion AirBnB should be liable for something like this. It might make them take better steps to prevent it. You're not going to stop it 100% of the time, but there are plenty of horror stories here, and that's turned me off from ever trying it personally.
ricardobeat 13y ago
What does meeting the renter personally accomplish? You won't be able to tell that he is planning a XXX Freak Fest tomorrow. Even if you do, cancelling the reservation after meeting him might get you kicked out of AirBNB as a host.
- stormbrew 13y ago
  It's certainly not a catch-all, but it can help. It strikes me as the very least you can do. And there are other measures you can take, like having a neighbour (or hell, if you're actually doing it legally, your super) keep an eye on things. The point is simply that if you abdicate all effort to ensure your house is kept well to a corporation that barely knows either of you are people, you're more likely to get this stuff happening. No one makes anyone be an airbnb host. And if you met a potential guest and thought they might be planning to host an orgy in your house as soon as you left, I'm gonna say you might want to risk getting kicked off airbnb rather than risk having your house trashed. That's just me, though.

ZoF 13y ago

I don't see how this is AirBnB's fault, at least to the degree that's implied. You rented out your apartment to a stranger on the internet based upon what other strangers on the internet said about them. You almost certainly broke the terms of the lease in the process and probably deserved to be kicked out even if you hadn't had an "XXX freak fest" thrown. Sure, AirBnB should try and figure out the damages, charge the accounts credit card(guarantee that won't work) and the pursue damages(good luck). This is why people have renter's insurance(doubt you thought of it as you were probably trying to do this illegally anyway). This is also why this industry is regulated, because when it's not humans get pwnt by their own stupidity combined with the malice of other humans. At the end of the day for a lot of people AirBnB is a way to make easy money under the table, that's why there's little to no regulation; yeah that regulation comes with taxes/overhead, but it also comes with protection from the hazards of the business. It's pretty fucked logic to take such a huge risk with your property, give it zero protection, and then be not only surprised, but furious(with the site connecting you to the offender not the offender themself), when shit goes down. How dense can you be. TL;DR- AirBnB pays for these situations anyway[0], this drama post is made by someone who took a huge risk in renting an apt without insurance, without a face-to-face, and probably not in accordance with his/her lease. The post will probably result in a faster payout, but the entitlement is slightly annoying considering the circumstances. [0]-https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee

Kequc 13y ago
There are absolutely tons of people more dense than the OP, tons. Vast parades of dense people. So it's a little bit unwarranted to really come down this hard on him. On the other hand it is these vast parades of dense people who keep voting for less regulation as a whole. So I can appreciate the need to come down hard on them. But this guy doesn't seem like the guy honestly. AirBNB is a business model used by millions, they take a huge or even really huge cut just for being the middle man. You expect a tiered amount of "XXX Freak Fests" rolling through your apartment.
- clarky07 13y ago
  Tell me how regulation solves this? Why is it that this couldn't happen in a hotel? (Guarantee it does all the time) There isn't any regulation that can fix people being jackasses. This isn't AirBNB's fault, and it isn't the OP's fault. It's the jackass who held the party fault. Could the OP have done things differently? Sure. It's likely the sublet wasn't entirely legal, and it's likely he could have renter's insurance. That being said, his insurance still probably shouldn't have to pay it. That is what AirBNB's cut should be covering. And I'm sure they will in fact cover it, as this is really bad publicity for them. The only reason for this post is to make that money get there faster.

__pThrow 13y ago

Can someone explain why we should think this tumblr post has any credibility?

dangrossman 13y ago
Because it contains ample verifiable evidence.
- __pThrow 13y ago
  That's not actually a response. You are just restating the premise. And exercising your right to be snide. What is the ample verifiable evidence in the post?
  - dangrossman 13y ago
    The tweet by the "BBW party promoter" is on twitter; you can view it there. The account has 5 years of history tweeting about sex parties. The address of a residence is in the tweet. You can do a Google search and see the previous real estate listings for the residential condos/apartments at that address. You can look at it on Google Maps to see that it's a real address and not some kind of sex club. The "porn star" profile of the party organizer that tweeted, screenshotted, is there on Xvideos; you can look it up and view it yourself. The screenshots of the booking conversations through Airbnb are included as well, which Airbnb can confirm actually took place. These are all evidence supporting the story, and all of these pieces of evidence can be verified by third parties. That's verifiable evidence, which is what I said. "Restating the premise" means to restate the base of your argument. I argued the opposite, that the post does have credibility. Sorry that you felt I was being snide by disagreeing.
    - __pThrow 13y ago
      The tweet is verifiable. That a porn party took place at that residence seems likely. There is no verification this occurred over airbnb. There is no verification that the tweets were by anyone other than the resident or owner and no verification that the tumblr post was written by the resident. All of this, including the tweet, could be a pretty simple hoax. And worse, it's from tumblr. The premise you restated was the basic post itself: Hey! This shit happened to me. I asked, why should we believe this. You said, "Because shit happened to that guy!" Until airbnb responds we have no reason to give this anecdote any credence. And you were totally snide. Your apology is disingenuous. "Sorry you felt I was being snide" is not an apology. It is a faux apology.

guiomie 13y ago

This is fucked up. 87k of damages ... doesn't that seem a lot?

joshmlewis 13y ago
I would imagine most of that is rent you are liable for if you are evicted. At least $2k+ a month for x amount of months. If they had decent furniture that could add up quickly as well, but $80k does seem like a lot unless they are including 'emotional' damages which at that point is hard to quantify.
- tlrobinson 13y ago
  Wait, if you're evicted you're liable for all the rent for the remainder of the lease?
  - FireBeyond 13y ago
    Typically, you're responsible, if it's a lease, for the rent until the property is re-leased, with the assumption that the landlord makes all reasonable efforts to do so expediently.
- thirsteh 13y ago
  Probably $4k-6k+ per month for a 7th Ave "luxury" studio with a back yard.
- dangrossman 13y ago
  Zillow estimates rent at that address as $6700/month, with the 2 bedroom condos in that building selling for over $2 million. Another listing at the same address was renting for $7950/month.
  - joshmlewis 13y ago
    Wow, yeah that definitely makes up for it then. I didn't really look too much into how much.

lionhearted 13y ago

A potentially interesting thread of discussion -- Who has ideas on how to handle customer service and public perception in an industry where the downside of a single bad event is the mix of horrific, intimate, and very newsworthy? Even if the rate of AirBNB disasters was only 1 disaster for every 1 million successful rentals, you'd still get very sticky disaster stories coming out regularly. Similar to how the evening news covers all the murders and trauma in the world, potentially inflating our perception of how often it happens.. Any general thoughts on what's required to thrive if you're in an industry where things will go wrong even if you do best practices conservatively everywhere, and the "going wrong" scenario is both quite bad and quite public?

bredren 13y ago

This is obviously a bad situation. No one wants this to happen. (Except perhaps the FF participants) There have been plenty of bad situations at hotels as well, though. I'm most interested in the final paragraph. All because I trusted AirBNB that this individual was a “Verified” member with multiple positive reviews... AirBnB has pioneered some of the workflow for establishing and communicating social proof. P2P requires trusted reputation. If the story is as described, it appears AirBnB failed to provide a trustful counter-party. And it went very wrong as a result.

rayiner 13y ago
> There have been plenty of bad situations at hotels as well, though. Sure, but hotels are regulated and licensed and zoned so they keep those bad situations away from residential areas. > AirBnB has pioneered some of the workflow for establishing and communicating and social proof. It's really an open question of whether "reputation economies" are workable at all. I continue to be disappointed by user ratings on services like Yelp. I wouldn't trust anything more substantive than a new restaurant pick to such ratings.
- joshmlewis 13y ago
  But with Yelp they don't verify you've actually eaten at a restaurant or visited a business so it is very much up in the air and their stance is we don't spend our time verifying or taking up false claims so you're stuck. I've experienced this first hand helping businesses with their social media. It sucks a lot. The only way to have sure reviews is to have some kind of receipt verification or pass the payment through the service so that you know for sure this person is paying for this service which AirBnB does. So there is a big difference from AirBnB reviews and reviews on Yelp and other sites that let you post without real proof.
- baddox 13y ago
  > Sure, but hotels are regulated and licensed and zoned so they keep those bad situations away from residential areas. Is it any better that hotel guests might have to stay near this sort of behavior?

bilbo0s 13y ago

One, I would definitely evict and sue this blogger as well if I was the landlord. Two, how the AirBNB user the blogger rented to is "Verified" with multiple positive reviews needs to be investigated. Whatever weakness they are exploiting in the AirBNB review system needs to be eliminated. Lastly, I am sorry this happened... but the reality is... this is the reason you shouldn't be using AirBNB. This could have turned out much worse to be perfectly frank.

LeafyGreenbriar 13y ago

Airbnb will almost certainly cover the damages: https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee https://www.airbnb.com/guarantee. He might not have as much luck getting them to pay his relocation costs, since I'm sure that renting out his apartment was against his lease anyway. The real problem for this guy is going to be finding another landlord in Manhattan who will rent to him, unless he is extremely wealthy, of course.

dangrossman 13y ago
If Zillow's estimates are at all accurate, the building at that address is full of $2M+ condos that rent for $6-8K/month. He mentions the doorman; he's probably pretty well off to afford living there.

coofluence 13y ago

This is exact reason why AirBnB like services cannot succeed in India. You could be in jail, as the police here will never understand why you allowed someone into your house if you are not a hotel. The attitude of police here is that if anything goes wrong, the owner of the house or business is responsible. To illustrate, in 2004, early days of e-commerce in India, someone put up a certain CD to be sold on e-Bay. The police just arrested the CEO of eBay India. When something goes wrong police here arrests biggest possible names either to show its working or extract maximum corruption money. Any wonder why Indian startups cannot go beyond providing services to foreign businesses for cheap? To be fair, many startups are innovating in India, but the point is the kind of challenges they have to deal with are just unknown to the more developed world. eBay news link from 2004: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2902203/India-throws-Ebay-chief-into-prison.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2902203/India-throws-Ebay...

aosmith 13y ago

Wonder how the "million dollar" insurance policy will work out for this guy...

ChuckMcM 13y ago

That's a sad story. Clearly not a common occurrence (at least not common enough to be "oh another airbnb trashed my place" type response). So what happens next will be interesting. Presumably AirBnB's insurance will make the renter whole again. Also presumably their ability to identify the person responsible will allow them to press charges against them, I suspect there are codes against charging cover charges for a sex party (I vaguely remember the controversy over the sex club in LA about this, something about indirect solicitation but that was like in the 70's so I'd really have to go back and dig it up.) It seems like the 'TWINN' character was reasonably well connected in this community and perhaps if a great big hassle comes his way it will discourage others from that community in using AirBnB that way. Definitely a wild story though.

andr 13y ago

AirBnB has a $1,000,000 insurance on every booking. Yes, what happened sucks, but the guy should raise noise if AirBnB refuses to cover his damages. For what it's worth, claiming your host insurance with AirBnB is part of doing business with them.

bdcravens 13y ago
There's been a few other comments that point out that a condition of the insurance is that you must own the property, or have permission to rent it out, which author didn't. To the policy as it's written, this would be an uncovered claim.
anigbrowl 13y ago
For the amount he's demanding, I'm pretty sure they'll pass it on to their lawyers and let him twist in the wind. He doesn't have much of a case.

devnonymous 13y ago

whoa whoa ..it isn't AirBnB's fault, it is google's ! ..not wait, it is the fault of the interwebs ..ehe, so Gore ? Yep, that's it, Gore set the XXX Freak Fest to your place. Jeez !

rdl 13y ago

I'm amazed it has taken so long for something like this to happen. It's almost worse than MethBNB. Does it happen more frequently but AirBnB just quietly pays out? Or is my perception of how horrible 1% of the world is inaccurately calibrated? Hack AirBnB accounts, until you find a nice renter who has a place with (presumably) nice stuff who will hand off keys to you without physically meeting, then clear it out, or destroy it like this, or something else. I'd be assuming that would happen 1:1000 rentals, but maybe that's paranoia. Still, while I feel sorry for the renter here, I feel even worse for his landlord and neighbors, who should sue him, and get part of that $1mm.

ricardobeat 13y ago
That doesn't make any sense. Just choose a random house with valuable stuff in it, break in and clear it out? Getting past the door is the least of your problems, why go all that trouble with AirBNB? It doesn't make it less of a crime.
- rdl 13y ago
  It gives you a window of time when you know the owners won't be home. Burglary is way safer (and legally less punished) than robbery.

vacri 13y ago

The stress and fear that a large band of “XXX Freak Fest” individuals have my address and keys to my home is unreal Do they not have locksmiths in NYC?

EGreg 13y ago

Wait, is it even legal to use AirBNB in NYC? latest is this: http://www.thenewyorkworld.com/2013/10/24/airbnb/ http://www.thenewyorkworld.com/2013/10/24/airbnb/ ??

holyjaw 13y ago

Why did this become a blog post, and not a conversation with AirBnB's customer service and legal departments? Unnecessarily jumping that gap is what makes me seriously doubt the pure validity of his claims.

johnchristopher 13y ago

> I am looking for a place for my brother and sister in law who visiting for a wedding this weekend. I just don’t have the space for them. Shouldn't the writing style be a red flag ?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

tmuir 13y ago

This exposes a big flaw in the entire premise of AirBnB. AirBnB's core market is people renting out their homes when they aren't there. This problem is inherent to providing unsupervised hospitality. If no one is there to verify customers beyond meaningless internet reputations, no one is there to prevent your possessions from being destroyed. Fixing this problem quickly turns you into a business with employees, running a hotel. Regulations are about more than just taxes.

chii 13y ago
you make liable the parties that did the damage. airbnb could take a bond from the renter (to cover damages, if any), or get something hard to forge such as an ID card of some sort, and recover the damage from them should it occur.

growt 13y ago

So these fucking strangers turned out to be literally fucking strangers.

goldenkey 13y ago

87k seems like a lot of money in damages. If the poster is already living the rich life, why be greedy and AirBNB for even more cash? Greed is the root of all evil. I do not feel any sympathy.

pm24601 13y ago

Well I am sorry for the OP. But posts like this make it clear: I will not use AirBnB. It isn't worth the cost. Even if AirBnB pays the (no doubt depreciated) cost of the damage; I don't want my prized possessions trashed. (or worse). Thank god there wasn't a fire!

jlebrech 13y ago

You shouldn't be using rented property on airbnb, the solution to this is owning the property and then checking up on the occupants and being the super yourself.

latj 13y ago

My two favorite bits are: -- You sent an “XXX Freak Fest” into my home By which joshmn means "I invited an XXX Freak Fest into my home in exchange for money." -- As such, I’m going to be evicted. Its subtle enough that you miss it the first time you read it until later when you get to 'my landlord is certainly going to make me move after an “XXX Freak Fest”'. Yup, joshmn has in fact not been evicted. So, lets summarize. You went on a website, found a stranger, accepted money in exchange for your keys. Then they messed with your furniture. Now you want $87k. Oh, and you have trouble looking at people in the eyes. I am checking with my attorney to see if there is any legal recourse I can take to recover the last five minutes of my life.

ricardobeat 13y ago
AirBNB has insurance for cases like this. It's not much different from getting a hotel room, would you say a hotel's management was stupid if this happened at their property? > "You went on a website, found a stranger, accepted money in exchange for your keys. Then they messed with your furniture. Now you want $87k." Try re-reading that phrase in the context of a standard long-term apartment lease. What's strange or stupid about that?
- mikeryan 13y ago
  In a long term lease I'm personally meeting the renter, running a credit check, getting references from previous land lords and/or friend, an up front security deposit equal to 3 months rent, not furnishing the apartment and insuring the apartment against any additional damages. A standard long-term apartment lease situation is considerably different.
  - ricardobeat 13y ago
    Renting fully furnished homes is common in many countries. AirBNB charges upfront, keeps your CC data on file, has references from previews hosts, and allows landlords to collect a security deposit if wanted. Looks about the same to me.

k-mcgrady 13y ago

It's likely that by hosting anyone through AirBnB the OP was violating the terms of their lease agreement. So technically it's not who they hosted that's the problem, it's that they hosted anyone at all and that's the real reason for eviction. As for the damages to property AirBnB should help recover those losses from the person who rented the apartment.

adnam 13y ago

I'm constantly amazed that people will rent out their own homes to total strangers, and then blame Airbnb when things like this happen.

heidijavi 13y ago

I don't doubt about the story, but has anyone find out what's the URL of the Airbnb place?

bowlofpetunias 13y ago

Although this is disturbing regardless, someone who puts a rented apartment (i.e., someone else's property) on AirBnB and then complains about abuse by others strikes me as extremely hypocritical.

lafar6502 13y ago

oh, I'm really sorry for stuffed animals. They probably thought stuffing was the last time they were abused.

dm2 13y ago

You're basically operating a business when you rent out your home. Unless AirBNB has a large amount of assurances that you will be protected then you need to do your own due diligence and ensure that you have insurance, gather identification, and that what you are doing is legal. As far as I know, operating as a hotel without a license is not legal in NYC. Just like walking a tightrope across two building in NYC is illegal without sufficient permits and people to ensure it's done safely and responsibly. Your landlord might not evict you if you explain the situation and ensure them that there is no way this will happen again, you've learned your lesson. If that doesn't work, sue the people who stayed in your place. If that doesn't work, sue AirBNB. They might both claim that acting as a hotel in NYC was illegal and you're screwed for taking that risk, if so, you've learned an expensive lesson. What kind of contract does AirBNB make people renting sign? I would hope that it explicitly prohibits large gatherings, destroying personal property, and disturbing neighbors, if it doesn't, then it should. Has AirBNB attempted to pass any laws in NYC (and other cities) that provide some type of protection for people renting out their places for a limited period of time? Would it really be that difficult to allow inspections of private residences? There could also be something that requires the home be used by the owner for X months out of the year or that there is a maximum of X separate renters during a year (which might be hard to enforce / prove). Is there a minimum amount of time someone has to rent a residence before it can be considered a sublease? Maybe you should only do that until laws protecting you are passed.

vermooten 13y ago

A question I've been mulling about Airbnb since it started: who TF allows total strangers to stay at their home????

prawn 13y ago

Firstly, it comes to mind that someone could easily orchestrate a series of incidents like this to impair Airbnb's potential, especially in a particular location. If they deny a payout, anyone who doesn't own their place will think again. Secondly, admittedly Booking.com and so on don't "verify" a customer beyond email and credit card, but it's hard to imagine a hotel piping up like this for being referred a dodgy customer.

spoiledtechie 13y ago

What's wrong with all of you? A year ago it was a woman, under almost the same circumstances that had her apartment vandalized. You all rallied behind her. Now since it seems its a man and and ranted online under pretty much the same circumstances, but different type of people, you say its not airBnBs fault? that's truly disappointing.

ubercore 13y ago
There's a way to make your point without saying things like "all of you".
kevinpet 13y ago
Very different circumstances. For one, the SF poster a year ago had contacted AirBnB and was reporting on their complete lack of assistance. This article seems to be saying that AirBnB is supposed to do the impossible -- vet people more thoroughly than reviews from their previous stays.

tbarbugli 13y ago

Got anything from airbnb yet? Very curious to know how is this going to end

DanielBMarkham 13y ago

Hotels constantly deal with their rooms being a location for prostitution, drug dealing, porn films, and so on. People who lend out their personal property are constantly lending it to people who are rude, lying, and destroy it -- often causing them great harm and psychological damages. I'm not sure what part of this is AirBnB's problem. It's like blaming GMail for letting you meet that nice kid online who borrowed your car and then totaled it. Huh? Now if the author had made some extended argument that AirBnB was somehow guaranteeing his property's safety? Might make a little more sense. But AirBnB isn't an insurance company, or a private security service. The most I'd expect from them would be 1) solid identification on who the person is looking for the room, and 2) dependable (non-fake) reviews from previous experiences. You have to remember that even people who are great borrowers-of-things will, on occasion, really screw the pooch. You can go for ten years being the pillar of the community and then lose it all on a month-long drug binge. It happens. So I don't think you're ever going to get rid of the occasional bad experience. It would be interesting to see if something evolves in this area, perhaps an insurance policy or city-wide micro-term security service.

uptown 13y ago

I'm amazed the guy still has his listing online. It's here if anyone is interested: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1058615 https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1058615

uptown 13y ago
update: And it's pulled.

jgalt212 13y ago

If I were a cynic, here's how I would read the upvoted comments: Regulations are bad when then they impair a YC company's ability to make money.

jellicle 13y ago

Amusing Hacker News cognitive dissonance: - "AirBNB is great! Will revolutionize the world! Stupid hotels just take your money for no reason! Regulations are only there because governments hate you and want to oppress you! By next week, 7 billion people will be using AirBNB to rent their homes to each other! And it's totally safe, because AirBNB stands behind each and every transaction!" -- "Stupid poster, she should know that AirBNB is absolutely unsafe. She bore 100% of the risk and of course she should never have used this service. She was violating her lease and deserves everything that happened to her. Shooting is too good for her; hanging is too good for her. None of this is AirBNB's fault; they had literally nothing to do with the transaction and it's impossible to understand why the poster would ever have thought they did."

solve 13y ago
You've got it all wrong, hacker news is very consistent. Whatever the topic, everyone must argue against the OP.
nulagrithom 13y ago
I upvoted because I found it interesting, not because I agree that it's AirBnB's fault nor because I think AirBnB's service is flawless.
RealGeek 13y ago
I am shocked to see everyone rallying against the victim because he may have violated his lease terms. If that is the excuse AirBNB have, they should not be doing business in the cities where their business model is not 100% compliant local laws. How does the lease terms even matter in this incident? It's not like David vandalized her apartment because he figured the host is violating lease terms and he deserve this? Do you really think that David would have cancelled his XXX fest if the host's lease terms allowed subletting? This would have happened to him even if he was 100% compliant with lease terms and local law. AirBNB should take responsibility for it and do the right thing. AirBNB should caution their hosts and customers about risks like these instead of lying them about 100% guarantee. Moreover, it should be AirBNB's responsibility to ensure that every single listing and transaction is 100% compliant with the local laws. Ebay doesn't let me sell drugs or other illegal items. AirBNB should do business

ar7hur 13y ago

So you think you can make $710 renting your studio for two nights without any risk of this kind of thing happening? Wake up, man. No risk, no reward.

bayesianhorse 13y ago

I sometimes wonder why this doesn't happen a lot more often... Anyway, people seem to be much more trustworthy, which is why airbnb is still going strong. Until more legislations make it illegal to rent out apartments as quasi-hotels...

Duhck 13y ago

Firstly, as others stated, you took a risk and likely violated your lease as well as NYC law. With that said, this tidbit from your listing is a brilliant indicator of how you inevitably brought this issue onto yourself: "You may host up to 50 people in the backyard or apartment, but please leave $80USD so I can pay a cleaning lady to clean the extra mess." Did they pay the extra $80USD? You invited them to bring 50 people over, I am sorry for what happened, but I don't feel sorry for you...

goldbeck 13y ago
After confirming this with a quick google, I'm having trouble not "blaming the victim" here. It's sometimes the case with ridiculous things happening to people, that there's "more to the story", and that certainly seems to be the case here. The poster willfully assumed additional risk on top of the standard AirBNB risk, and it's that additional risk that bit him. Telling someone you've never met that they can bring 50 people(!?!) into your apartment, and just assuming that things won't get out of hand, is... naive.

eplanit 13y ago

To quote Nelson Muntz: "Haw haw!". Hey, I've got an idea, let's treat our home like a hotel room and rent it out to strangers... what could possibly go wrong?

foobarian 13y ago

How on earth did this incident cause $85k in damages? They just dumped a bunch of furniture out. Was it really expensive furniture?

crystaln 13y ago

This is like accusing craigslist of causing murder through its dating forum. Any time you rent a place out you face this risk.

mamoswined 13y ago

I always wondered about pre-approved AirBnBs, which based on the screenshot is what this one was. I usually don't pick them because I feel that if a host doesn't actively screen, that it's a very bad sign. And by actively screen I mean look at my facebook, twitter, etc.