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Linux gets frozen, what do you do?
- blcknight 13y agoOnly if you have magic SysRq keys enabled in the kernel... are kernels shipping these days with this by default?
- ominous_prime 13y agoThey used to at least. I had to used this quite a bit years ago when working on RHEL5 systems with new/experimental drivers.
- mistercow 13y agoI just tried it on my Ubuntu 12.04 install, and it worked. I definitely didn't change any kernel config options.
- nly 13y agoIt's a lot easier just to reboot and let fsck patch up your filesystem... flushing buffers isn't going to help you get back the last paragraph of your PhD thesis if Libre Office hasn't called write(). In any case, in ~8 years of using Linux, I don't think I've had a freeze that was the kernel and not just X.
- hdevalence 13y agoOne easy way to get kernel lockups is to use fglrx. But agreed on 'just reboot': you should be using a resilient filesystem anyways, and MagicSysRq only works when it's enabked beforehand, and only for some kinds of lockups, and if the data is in the frozen application, syncing the disks isn't going to help.
- latj 13y agoThis is the most elaborate scheme to raise one's relative global uptime I have ever seen.
- cdi 13y ago>One easy way to get kernel lockups is to use fglrx. Yup. Changed my GPU to nvidia, no more core lockups.
- hdevalence 13y agoFor me, I kept the hardware, and switched to the open-source driver.
- slashdotaccount 13y agoAnd what if it's not your PhD thesis in Libre Office but a busy database server which can easily get corrupted if you don't flush. > I don't think I've had a freeze that was the kernel and not just X. Device drivers sometimes have bugs, especially when the device is not working properly (I had system freezes when there was a misbehaving capacitor on the graphics card).
- garblegarble 13y ago> And what if it's not your PhD thesis in Libre Office but a busy database server which can easily get corrupted if you don't flush. Wouldn't that make it an unsafe database server?
- slashdotaccount 13y agoYes, I agree, but just several weeks ago I had to recover a MySQL InnoDB database after a power problem. MySQL is very popular, and it turns out it is an unsafe database server according to your definition. Well maybe it is. Edit: Besides, hard drives have write caches, and they can report a successful write operation to the OS when the data is still in its cache physically.
- deelowe 13y agoI don't believe MySQL is ACID compliant. You may have just ran into one of the reasons how.
- cookiecaper 13y agoMySQL is only ACID compliant under a very specific set of configuration parameters. This makes it even more dangerous than an RDBMS with binary acidity.
- marcosdumay 13y agoYep, MySQL is an unsafe database. The fact that it's popular just goes to show how powerful marketing is on th emind of most people. Hard drivers are supposed to flush their caches before they report the end of a flush operation to the OS (some flush into flash, but they flush). If your does not, it's defective. Go ahead and make use of the warranty.
- sz4kerto 13y agoI had many because of a not 100% stable hard drive + mdadm. Kernel panics during prolonged periods of high HDD load.
- spaznode 13y ago"sync; sync; sync; shutdown -r now" I remember some sort of magic invocation like that years ago for our medical "device" product we had to manage hundreds of remote node instances of. Something along those lines. I don't remember why the developer (Gabe) came up with sync three times being magic number. Maybe three times was just paranoia. =)
- thejosh 13y ago"sync, sync, sync your file systems gently down the shutdown -r..".
- mikeash 13y agoBack in the bad old days of pre-UNIX Macs, it was a common troubleshooting step to reset your PRAM. This is battery backed up RAM that holds some basic settings, and if it got corrupted somehow it could cause weird problems. You'd reboot while holding down command, option, P, and R, then wait for the boot chime to sound a second time indicating that it had been reset, then release the keys and boot normally. Somehow this advice got mutated so that you'd keep holding the keys until you heard two boot chimes (thus resetting the stuff twice). And then it started to grow. Three was common. Some people would advise more. I'm pretty sure that doing it more than once never helped anything, but there we are. (The cmd-opt-P-R sequence still works on modern Macs and I actually used it to resurrect a machine that wouldn't start up just a month ago, but it's far less frequently needed now.)
- celebril 13y agoIt's the same with the battery stats resetting and the Dalvik cache wiping these days in Android land. You do it three+ times. Or the "Repair permissions" thing in OS X. You do it several times as well. It's like whenever there's this one-step fix thing that a system utility does, the Common Man will interpret it as needing to repeat 3+ times in order for it to be effective.
- slight 13y agoI believe the thinking is because sync isn't instant, especially on older slower hard drives, having to type it again give it time to actually complete.
- slug 13y agowhen doing kernel development on embedded systems or on a real host (not within a virtual machine), it's sometimes useful to get system information when it crashes. the cool thing is that it's also possible to send the sysrq through a console serial port by first sending a break command. anyway, someone already mentioned a few mnemonics, I learned one, a quick googling lead me here: http://fosswire.com/post/2007/09/fix-a-frozen-system-with-the-magic-sysrq-keys/ http://fosswire.com/post/2007/09/fix-a-frozen-system-with-th...
- bad_user 13y agoI wouldn't advise other people doing this as the filesystem can get seriously broken under certain circumstances. For example, on a Linux laptop with the hard-drive encrypted with dm-crypt, I simply lost access to my drive due to repeated hard reboots. I don't know if I could have recovered my data from it or not, but after repeated attempts of googling for the error message and following advice I simply gave up and later reinstalled everything from scratch (it's a good thing I constantly make backups ;-)). On Linux REISUB has been my friend.
- thanatropism 13y agoThis would be where keyboards with hardware-level macro support (like the Kinesis Advantage) come to be useful. ... to be honest, I can't think of another scenario. I have an Advantage for every place I spend extended computer time in -- it's too big and clunky to carry around...
- jerf 13y agoYou do not necessarily want to type that too quickly; sync may take a moment.
- tbrock 13y agoIt's possible that their computer is frozen enough to need this but it's more probable that this person hasn't figured out how to disable DontZap in newer versions of xorg. You need to disable it in your xorg.conf in order to have ctrl-alt-bksp work again: Section "ServerFlags" Option "DontZap" "false" EndSection
- snogglethorpe 13y agoNote: you might want to think twice about doing this if you use Emacs... (...from painful experience...)
- jcastro 13y agoAlt + SysRq + k will also do this if you don't feel like writing a xorg.conf.
- mpyne 13y agoThat was one of my favorite Magic SysRq keys. It's the Linux analog to Windows's Ctrl-Alt-Del. It's the "Secure Access Key" (SAK): You press that key and it kills all programs hooked to the TTY (incl. X, in your case) and displays a proper login prompt so that you can know what you're about to login to was run by the system and not a clever malware trying to steal your password.
- girvo 13y agoI learnt about this a few months back... and never had to use it. Seriously, on my AMD APU netbook running Mint, I've had no freezes whatsoever, despite the hardware being a bit odd. A neat trick though.
- TacticalCoder 13y agoI'm using Linux since 20 years and used to do this all the time, back when Linux --or more specifically X Window system-- was less stable than today. I'd make sure to always compile the kernel with MagicSysRQ (you need it for the combo mentioned in TFA). It wasn't even mandatory to restart the system: the trick was to use first MagicSysRQ and then issue a "vgareset" (IIRC I couldn't even see what I was typing, but the command was taken into account) and then, miracle: I could unlock frozen X Window sessions (more specifically: kill X, "reset" the GPU and then restart a new X Window session). Note that very often X is fine: it's just X which is frozen. Heck, if you have another machine on your LAN and allow SSH in, you can SSH and kill X / vgareset without needing MagicSysRQ. But since quite a few years X is so stable that such hackery ain't needed anymore. Moreover if I recall correctly "vgareset" did only exist for 32 bits system (at least at one point). Nowadays my Linux workstation regularly reaches 6 months of uptime (there are only very rarely know remote root exploits mandating a kernel upgrade) so I've kinda "forgot" how MagicSysRQ works ^ ^
- javanix 13y agoSysrq is kinda neat. You can force a kernel panic by 'echo c > /proc/sysrq' if you really want.
- graylights 13y agoThat is disabled in some distros, it can be toggled via /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq
- arethuza 13y agoWhen I read that I thought of "Stop A" on Sun workstations - and indeed that is mentioned on the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key Mind you I don't think I ever used "Stop A" on a Sun for anything constructive...
- gaius 13y agoI thought Stop-A launched the Forth interpreter ;-)
- sgtnasty 13y agoI have not had to do this in a while now.
- Stolpe 13y agoRaising Elephants Is So Utterly Boring
- Nursie 13y agoThis is not for the situation in the article, but a slightly different one. You have a remote server, there's an ssh session still open to it but it's somehow lost access to all its mount points including / You have nothing to work with but bash builtins and /proc, you're 100 miles away and you need to get it up and running again NOW. Emergency reboot - echo 1 > /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq echo b > /proc/sysrq-trigger
- peterwaller 13y agoDo a `sync` first! Also This is quite like yanking the power chord and plugging it back in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sync_(Unix) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sync_(Unix)
- Nursie 13y agoSync never returns, all filesystems have been lost. Yes, it's exactly like pulling and replugging, which was exactly what I needed! --edit-- is sync even a bash builtin? Looks like it's /bin/sync on my systems. / had been lost (it was on a usb stick on an internal header on an unreliable usb3 card, I later found out.) --edit 2-- if you meant also echoing s to the sysrq-trigger, it seemed to kill the session
- joncp 13y agohttp://www.folkpeople.com/guitar-lesson/pic/power_chord_table.gif http://www.folkpeople.com/guitar-lesson/pic/power_chord_tabl...
- pit 13y agoAt first, I wasn't sure why you posted this, but I was too busy rocking out to mind.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- herokusaki 13y ago>it's somehow lost access to all its mount points How could that happen and leave your system in a state where it is still accessible and can be fixed by a reboot? If you think you might face that kind of trouble you should keep a copy of Busybox and whatever other tools you might need on a RAM drive. You'd have an opportunity to figure out if rebooting would lead to a usable system.
- mavroprovato 13y ago> You need to press and hold Ctrl, Alt and PrtSc(SysRq) buttons, and while holding them, you need to press r, e, i, s, u, b I think I need an extra hand to do this
- DaCapoo 13y agoControl isn't necessary - I'm not sure why it would be specified. On a laptop you might have to hold the Fn key to hit PrtScr, but aside from that it's two fingers to hit 'Right Alt' and 'PrtScr' and the other hand can mash r,e,i,s,u,b. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
- mavroprovato 13y agoIn my workplace I have a Dell Keyboard that has the SysRq/Scroll Lock/Pause Keys on the top right, above the numpad. Holding Alt+SysRq with one hand is just impossible. Maybe it's easier in saner keyboards.
- DaCapoo 13y agoYeah, with a typical ANSI layout it's a small stretch but definitely doable. This is the layout that I have (and the only keyboard layout I'll ever buy, because every other throws the pipe key and backslash in a random spot along with randomly sizing the enter key) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ANSI_Keyboard_Layout_Diagram_with_Form_Factor.svg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ANSI_Keyboard_Layout_...
- pbhjpbhj 13y agoNose.
- blueblob 13y agoThe only way my linux machine has ever locked up is the usb driver seemed to crash in which case I couldn't do this anyways. The only other way I could have possibly restarted is to ssh to my machine from my phone, I opted for the power button instead.
- danparsonson 13y agoHandy that 'reisub' is 'busier' backwards
- chris_wot 13y agoYou rock.
- Aardwolf 13y agoWhen visiting the site I get: unused The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, (etc...) Did their Linux get frozen? [edit] it works again
- manca 13y agoYeah, being first on Hackers News is not good for your box :)
- ragsagar 13y agoThe site is blocked in UAE.
- 013 13y agoWhat's UAE?
- LoneWolf 13y agoI would say United Arab Emirates
- chris_wot 13y agoCensor's not happy with magic?
- aruggirello 13y agoThe Ubiquitous Amiga Emulator?
- mikeweiss 13y agoIf its a Linux Desktop alot of the time its just the X session that is frozen. Ctrl ALT F2 and sudo killall X will simply restart X
- otikik 13y agoIf you only have one hand, just press the power button.
- markhahn 13y agoif your X is hung (ie, NOT "linux"), why not switch to a VC and fix it? yes, it's good to know about magic-sysrq, but most people don't even understand the layering of X on a VC, and the fact that other VCs are available. of course, fixing why your X hung would be wise too, since for any normal distro and mainstream hardware, that's just not going to happen. if you really want to be fubar, have that f@cking POS systemd die on you... (yes, on-topic, since only sysrq saves the day.)
- stonogo 13y agoBecause X11 has trashed your video interface. You can't switch to a virtual console. X11 has ring0 access to the video card, to take advantage of DRM.
- laumars 13y agoMore often than not, it's your WM, DE or a GUI application eating up your RAM (Chromium used to be deadly for this) that's causing the freeze. In more than a decade of running Linux on my desktop (and at work), I genuinely can't think of a single instance when I've not been able to pull a virtual console from a frozen desktop (albeit it often performs laggy).
- andrewflnr 13y agoWhen I learned this trick, it was because an X input driver was locking up[0]. The virtual consoles were completely inaccessible. Occasionally it would show me a blank screen for my efforts, but more often not even SysRq would work. [0] I'm actually not 100% sure about that. Thank God I don't have to worry about it anymore.
- stonogo 13y agoThanks for trying to diagnose my computer over a web forum, but I am competent enough to identify when and how my computer has failed. I'm not interested anecdotes from users. I develop video drivers. Am I allowed to experience these lockups now?
- jsemrau 13y agoLet it go, let it go! Can't hold it back any more. Let it go, let it go! Turn away and slam the door. I don't care what they're going to say. Let the storm rage on. The server never bothered me anyway.
- colechristensen 13y agoSomething very important to note which is missing in the comments and the original article: waiting! Each one of these commands (r, e, i, s, u) takes or can take a few seconds to complete successfully, so let them do their thing.
- ttsiodras 13y agoIndeed! In particular, if you have HD-activity LEDs, watch and wait until they stop blinking - after the 's' (sync) key.
- gregPC 13y agoApparently you bring down the web page that tells you what to do!
- Yuioup 13y agoThis sounds like like a feature that needs to be automated, probably with a very handy key combination. I don't know ... maybe with Ctrl+Alt+Delete?
- i386 13y agoAgreed. Why isn't this default behaviour? Is there some negative aspect that's not obvious?
- marcosdumay 13y agoThat's because the default behaviour of CTRL + ALT + DEL is to issue a proper reboot. That, and because X consumes those keys, making them useless when X goes bad (what is about all the times that Linux freezes and it's not hardware fault).
- Yuioup 13y agoOkay maybe another key combination?
- samsaga2 13y ago"You need to press and hold Ctrl, Alt and PrtSc(SysRq) buttons, and while holding them, you need to press r, e, i, s, u, b" I'll need three hands.
- squigs25 13y agoIf only they had made this more ergonomically possible
- jack57 13y agoThis complexity, my technically oriented friends, is part of the reason normal people do not use Linux.
- NotHereNotThere 13y agoHow do you even come up to this conclusion? Knowing the magic key sequence is not required to operate a Linux system at all. If a Windows box froze, and you had a (somewhat slim) chance of gracefully shutting it down, would you not use it? Would you call pressing F8 to access magical boot options in Windows, a reason non-technical people wouldn't use Windows?
- jack57 13y agoThis complexity, my technically oriented friends, is part of the reason normal people do not use Linux.
- jack57 13y agoThis complexity, my technically oriented friends, is part of the reason normal people do not use Linux.
- donniezazen 13y agoCan't get it to work on Fedora 20. Are you suppose to press and hold Ctrl, Alt, PrtSc(SysRq), r, e, i, s, u, and b all together? Does it have to be in that order?
- pbhjpbhj 13y agoSwitch to a terminal (Ctrl+Alt+F2) and do AltGr+PrtScr+H - if you've got Magic SysReq enabled that will print the help information (a list of commands with their (k)eycodes) to the terminal. If it doesn't print anything then you need to RTFM to find out how to enable it. AFAIR I had to do this shortly after I switched to Kubuntu as it was disabled by default - I often had to use Ctrl+Alt+Backspace or AltGr+SysRq+K to kill X as there's a hardware bug on my Nvidia graphics card. My 8yo has a mnemonic for it something about Elephants and Umbrellas but I've always done reissub (now with extra sync'ing power). For a time the process for him was login, Alt+F2, konsole, Ctrl+R, mine, Enter, AltGr+SysRq+R, E, I, S, U, B; then repeat the first part and you're finally ready to play Minecraft!
- donniezazen 13y agoIf AltGr is right Alt, it does print a bunch of stuff. On my system, SysRq is under PrtSc. Does that mean I have to do Fn+PrtSc to get SysRq or just PrtSc is enough.
- pbhjpbhj 13y agoIf it prints out without presssing Fn then you're doing it right. Laptop keyboards are weird but usually it's just the PrtScr key as it acts as SysRq when using the Alt[Gr] modifier. It should print something like: "SysRq : HELP : loglevel(0-9) reboot(b) [...]"
- noselasd 13y agoYou'll have to enable it first (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Sysrq http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Sysrq ) sysctl -w kernel.sysrq = 1 Stuff kernel.sysrq = 1 in /etc/sysctl to make it permanent. I do not really understand why it isn't enabled by default though...
- TorKlingberg 13y agoBefore this try Ctrl+Alt+F1. You might get a full-screen terminal where you can log in and kill the offending process. Ctrl+Alt+F7 to get back to the desktop. I had to use this just today when ddd stole all other mouse and keyboard input.
- gnarbarian 13y agoI used to use Ctrl+alt+backspace but it doesn't work anymore on many desktop environments.
- anon4 13y agoThat's because it's turned off by default on modern X. You can enable them in the keyboard options of your DE, or directly with setxkbmap on startup (sorry can't look up the exact options right now) if you're not using one.
- talles 13y agoThis. It's pretty rare cases in that I have to actually restart the system.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- AaronFriel 13y agoWhat about when an SSH terminal gets locked up? If I'm running something and I want to abort it, I often find I can't because of the kernel thrashing. Often I see a nontrivial amount of CPU time given to kswapd but sometimes not, and more often I don't have any monitoring up to see what's going on, or the terminal I'm monitoring is also nonresponsive. This is especially a problem with Docker, I've found, because when I've got a container thrashing the system like this, I can't access the host or any other containers. Is this because I'm running single-core instances and the problem goes away once I have more than one thread available? Or should I be restricting workloads to a block device not used for caching? Does anyone else experience this?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- derefr 13y agoDocker can set CPU, memory, and network-bandwidth quotas for containers. If you can guarantee that the aggregate total of each quota is less than the amount of that resource available to the host, then in the worst case you'll always have some of each left for a "rescue" container. This throws away one of the neat advantages of containers compared to VMs, though, which is that you can overcommit (or "thin-provision", if you want to be charitable) the host's resource allocation, since it's extremely unlikely that all your services will balloon in resource-consumption simultaneously. A less guaranteed, but more economical strategy, is to just set quotas on each container such that if it individually starts using more than, say, 80% of the host's resources for an extended period, it'll be terminated. This doesn't save you from a bad interaction between containers that makes everything explode in parallel (e.g. all your containers attempting to reconnect to a stuck service with no backoff) but it should save you in the majority of cases where each host has a heterogeneous container-load, and horizontal scale happens between hosts rather than internal to them. (The dev-side solution to this problem, though, is to just set up your software architecture such that any host that gets into such a state can hard-reboot, without you losing anything of consequence. http://12factor.net http://12factor.net -type containers excel at this, and it looks to be the strategy https://coreos.com https://coreos.com embraces as well.)
- iwwr 13y agoBind xkill to a global hotkey. If it's just fullscreen or screen-grabbing app that crashed, xkill will take care of it.
- eikenberry 13y agoAnother way to deal with X freezing. Use acpi to set your power button to switch you to console. Just edit your /etc/acpi/power.sh and change it to... #/bin/sh /bin/chvt 1 The acpi system is separate from the X/keyboard interface and still works. So this way you can switch to the console even if your keyboard is locked. Note you can use other keys as well. On my laptop I use my "thinkvantage" key for this. Any key that has an associated acpi event will work.
- ingenium 13y agoWhich script in /etc/acpi/ corresponds to the thinkvantage key?
- eikenberry 13y ago$ cd /etc/acpi $ cat events/thinkvantage-button # Thinkpad 'ThinkVantage' button event=button/prog1 action=/etc/acpi/thinkvantage.sh $ cat thinkvantage.sh #!/bin/sh /bin/chvt 1 Hope this helps.
- tomrod 13y agoUsing Ubuntu minimal + xmonad + dmenu. Does not work.
- plorg 13y agoCertain Magic SysRq sequences are now disabled by default in Ubuntu. You can re-enable them by editing /etc/sysctl.d/10-magic-sysrq.conf. Alternately, you can enable them temporarily by # echo 1 > /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq (Or substitute "1" by the number described in magic-sysrq.conf, above)
- freiheit 13y agoOr, if you're on anything approaching a modern system: 1. Tap the power button (one single brief tap) 2. Wait a minute 3. If the system hasn't already shut down or isn't obviously in the process of shutting down or you just get impatient: hold the power button down 4. Now that the system is off: tap the power button. Modern systems (whether server, desktop tower or laptop) have a "soft" power button, that when tapped briefly sends a signal to the OS. Most flavors of linux are configured so that receiving that signal initiates a proper shutdown, just like "shutdown", "poweroff" or a GUI shutdown. All of this has been true for quite a few years now. If the system is so locked up that the power button initiated shutdown doesn't work, you might as well just pull the power, which holding the button down for a second or two will do. Even if this happens, you're probably using a journaling filesystem that comes back up cleanly. None of that will help with unsaved data in an application, because you almost certainly have to tell the application to save, and if X has locked up there is no way to do that. A clean shutdown might signal the app with a terminate signal and allow for data to be saved before doing a hard kill.
- cordite 13y agoHmm, I wonder if something like this extends to mac. Sometimes the login manager crashes and I can't do anything. Music still playing, but no mouse or keyboard reaction. I can ssh in, but I don't know what to run. Any ideas?
- mikecarlton 13y agoWhat do you mean 'linux gets frozen'? I literally can't remember the last time a linux box froze on me. As others said, I would just reboot it now and let fsck pick up the pieces. That's going to be faster than the time spent to search google for the magic incantation.
- jedanbik 13y agoLinux gets frozen, what do you do? I remember to press nine buttons on my keyboard, duh. and why? Because a hard reset will "make you a lot of problems?" I am not convinced, and I am not impressed. This is a laughably awful shortcut for anything. Why make the supposedly safe stuff so out of reach? I would have to use a separate computer to look up how to type this command. Even if I knew the command off the top of my head, what if my keyboard lacks a PrtSc (SysRq) button? When folks are pointing to Windows for design cues, the open source community ought to reconsider some aspects of how it has implemented certain features.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- clarry 13y agoHow do you perform the equivalent operations on Windows?
- jedanbik 13y agoIt isn't equivalent, but it is approximate; folks were mentioning ctrl-alt-dlt. Three keys instead of nine keys represents a 66% increase in efficiency.
- clarry 13y agoI would've said it was approximate enough in whe Windows 3.1 days when it could perform a soft reboot. But since Windows 2000, it has had completely different functionality (sometimes allowing you to log in, sometimes giving you a process manager oslt), not even remotely approximate to the magic sysrq sequence presented here. Do tell me if this has changed since Windows Vista. Linux, by the way, can also respond to Ctrl-alt-del, and depending on the desktop it might perform functions similar to Windows.
- deathanatos 13y agoThe most common reason I've had to do this is that I've exhausted RAM and swap, and the system is disk thrashing for spare pages. In some setups, Linux does not like to OOM a process when it really should. (That's adjustable, by the way.) Also, you don't need to go all the way through it. In my above example, MagicSysReq+RE or MagicSysReq+REI is enough usually. E and I are for sending SIGTERM and SIGKILL, so all the processes are now dead, and we have plenty of RAM. Sometimes it does take a bit of waiting: the system is disk thrashing. That said, you can then just resume, though you'll likely need to switch to a VT and restart X and other things. (But you get to keep your uptime.) There's also F, which invokes the OOM killer, though I often forget about it.
- jack57 13y agoSorry for the double posts. An app I was using caused it.