11 ms·

Agreed, a thousand times over. I lived through the transition from chalkboard + transparency classrooms (high school) to whiteboard classrooms (college) to pow

by timr 13y ago

Agreed, a thousand times over. I lived through the transition from chalkboard + transparency classrooms (high school) to whiteboard classrooms (college) to powerpoint classrooms (grad school). I've also taught with all three. The real shock for me came later in grad school, when the undergrads (these were all upperclassmen) all basically expected that you'd provide them with the printouts of your slides, and therefore did nothing in class. They'd sit there, diddle on their laptops or phones, and then get cranky and exasperated when you'd tell them, "no, sorry...there are no slides. you have to take notes." Learning is simply better when you have to write things down. You're engaging your eyes, your ears and your brain...and you're well aware when you're goofing off. I wish colleges would ban powerpoint in the classroom, but since powerpoint is an epic crutch for the lecturer as well, I have my doubts that it will ever happen....

dsrguru 13y ago
> Learning is simply better when you have to write things down. I disagree. Learning is better when you aren't able to diddle on your laptop or phone, and having to write things down strongly encourages you not to do those things, but the actual act of writing things down forces you to focus on quickly copying text, which hugely impairs your ability to internalize what was said. Some people's learning styles might make that less of a problem (i.e. so-called auditory learners might be able to internalize what's being said nearly at the speed it's spoken), but for those of us who need to translate what we hear into our own mental language, constant note-taking substantially hampers the learning process. The ideal for me is to preview the notes of a lecture before it's given a la Khan Academy, pay full attention during the lecture, occasionally jot down a keyword to trigger the memory of a thought I had during the lecture, and if I didn't have the opportunity to preview the lecture notes then I'll want to be able to access them afterwards to look up anything I don't remember. Edit: Corrective upvote because you didn't say anything that harms the discussion.
- bjelkeman-again 13y ago
  Different people have different learning styles. I often would draw pictures that represent what the lecturer would be saying. Which helps me memorising. It would have been perfect if I then had had an audio recording pen, which associates the doodle with the recording, but I got that after it stopped going to lectures.
- testrun 13y ago
  What is a corrective upvote and who gives it to you?
  - tinco 13y ago
    It's when you make a comment that makes the parents position seem silly, you up vote the parent to correct for people downvoting parent because they strongly agree with your comment.
- wiredfool 13y ago
  I find that I learn the best, and pay attention the best when I'm making notes. Even if I never refer to them again, burn them, throw them out, whatever. Hear, write, see, understand. Epic problem sets are also effective. Scanning other people's lecture notes, even if it's the professor, was worth maybe 5-10% of listening and writing the notes.
  - reeses 13y ago
    Rewriting à la Cornell is another huge step for retention.
  - matwood 13y ago
    Taking that 1 step further. When I was in school I would take notes in class with pencil and paper. My studying session consisted of typing those notes up while filling in the gaps from the book(s). Simple strategy that worked remarkably well.
- wisty 13y ago
  > Some people's learning styles might make that less of a problem (i.e. so-called auditory learners might be able to internalize what's being said nearly at the speed it's spoken), but for those of us who need to translate what we hear into our own mental language, constant note-taking substantially hampers the learning process. Learning styles is more or less discredited. IIRC, research indicated that most students respond similarly to the same learning styles. The main difference between students tends to be whether or not they understand previous material. I'm not saying that different mediums is a bad idea - most students do respond well to diagrams, explanations, examples, practice, etc. Research supports note taking, so it's probably a good thing for most students. However, it might not be good for all subjects - math and programming requires a lot less memorisation of facts, and a lot more thinking. If you want to understand dynamic programming, simply memorising the key points won't help you much. If you want to learn a new API, then writing down important methods might.
  - jacobolus 13y ago
    Speaking only for myself, taking copious notes in class always substantially hampered my ability to keep up. The only times I took such notes were in a couple of mathematics courses which moved at a blistering pace and had no textbook or other provided material: in those, it was essential to write everything down so that it could be studied and learned later, after class. But the act of writing during those classes made it quite a bit harder to follow the lectures while they were happening. I would have much preferred to receive hand-outs with the same definitions/theorems on it a day or two before the lecture, so that I could have put my full attention on the professor and the material. In basically all other courses, I only wrote notes when struck by particularly insightful thoughts I wanted to remember later, and my notes as often were about my own reactions as about what the professors were saying. But because I find it easy to focus and pay close attention in lectures, I generally had better recall afterward than most of my peers, even the ones who spent much more time “studying” their notes later. * * * By contrast, I had several friends who could only follow lectures by writing notes while in class, because otherwise they found lectures hard to focus on, and because they found that the physical act of writing what they heard to enormously help their later recall (not to mention they had a physical artifact they could refer to afterward). * * * I would like to see your sources for the statement “learning styles is more or less discredited”, as it does not align with my experience either as a student, as an observer of other students, or as the son of a school teacher. It seems completely obvious and non-controversial to me that some people have an easier time following verbal conversation than others, that some have an easier time reading/writing, that some people are more attuned to pictures/graphic elements, etc. Maybe “learning styles” is a bad name for this, and I personally believe that it’s mostly the result of practice and acculturation rather than anything genetic/inherent, but it still remains obviously (to me) true that different students find different modalities and teaching/learning methods more effective.
- ag80 13y ago
  There is some indication that hand writing notes results in better retention: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wray-herbert/ink-on-paper-some-notes-o_b_4681440.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wray-herbert/ink-on-paper-some... Some searching also pulls results from a few years ago with similar headlines.
- abhaga 13y ago
  This. Being a slow writer, it was a constant struggle for me through out school & college to keep pace with the instructors. I can imagine the same problem for the instructor as well - you need to be reasonably legible and fast to be able to cover everything. On the other hand, I have often found PowerPoint based presentations to be boring and uninspiring. I remember a class on Thermodynamics from college that I found so boring for this reason that I nearly flunked it. The best classes I have taken have been once which are primarily PowerPoint based with instructor jumping onto a whiteboard to flesh something out as required. PowerPoint provides the peace of mind that it will all be available if I need to refer to it later and working on whiteboard brings in the engagement and chance to go off track in between.
- swah 13y ago
  I had the same concern of not "taking note of everything", which Powerpoint solves (the teacher just sends you the file). But the better solution is that you watch the class w/o having to stop paying attention to write, maybe take notes for important stuff, and the class is also recorded and available in your uni website (like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3nbY3hIDLQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3nbY3hIDLQ ... can't be that expensive to put a camera and a big red button "start recording" in each room. Could even be a student project...) (Sal Khan also mentions that his nephews preferred him on Youtube than in-person because they could pause and rewind). (And by the way, I hate that universities that teach technology aren't themselves automatized, with superb intranet, etc...)
johnminter 13y ago
Do you want them to listen to you or be frantically writing? It is A LOT easier to annotate a PDF while pondering the concepts. Too many lectures are like a firehose...
- ksk 13y ago
  Why did you introduce your own bias by misrepresenting the parent comment? No one is claiming that "frantically writing" throughout the lectures is a good thing.
  - Perseids 13y ago
    Often you have no other choice then to frantically writing it down. jjoonathan argued that point nicely: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7363493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7363493
    - ksk 13y ago
      "Learning is simply better when you have to write things down. You're engaging your eyes, your ears and your brain...and you're well aware when you're goofing off." Where does it say "frantically writing" is good? Sorry, I have no idea what you think you're replying to.
      - Perseids 13y ago
        ( I'm not johnminter btw. :) ) It is not a direct reply to what timr wrote, but to where his/her sentiment leads with lectures that are densely packed with information. I've had quite a few classes where the lecturer "didn't believe in lecture notes" because "you will be so much more attentive" and "learn so much more when you write stuff down". As I still needed all the precise definitions and wordings of the theorems I did end up frantically copying the lecture.
        ksk 13y ago
        I did know who I was replying to :) There doesn't seem to be an overlap of discussion. Writing down what you know (esp. in your own words) causes reinforcement of long term memories is a well established scientific fact. Ofcource reviewing notes is also critical in strengthening those memories so that you recall precise details rather than vague ideas. You're talking about not being overwhelmed with taking notes - which again, nobody was claiming is a good thing. I agree that information like formulas, equations, definitions, etc should definitely be provided without having the student write them down and introduce errors of their own.
jjoonathan 13y ago
> Learning is simply better when you have to write things down. If the pace and level of a lecture is such that you can both listen and write things down, then yes, I'd agree that having the extra check is helpful. When you re-create an argument or diagram on paper you force yourself to work out the wrinkles and pay attention to the details in a way that you never do if you're just staring at a slide. However, not all lectures work that way unless you consistently take classes below your level. Sometimes you get hung up on a concept and you're forced to do two things at once: 1) copy the text & diagrams verbatim 2) understand the material where #1 is significantly more cognitively demanding than reproducing an argument that you already understand (unless you have photographic memory, you look back and forth and back and forth) to the point that it inhibits #2, which creates a further need for #1 in a spiral of uninterrupted misery and needless failure. This is where premade notes shine. They don't have to be a .ppt (I'd prefer if they were TeX sheets or a book chapter, assuming the book chapter actually corresponds to the same material) but they have to be there if you want students to be able to occasionally focus 100% on what you're saying. Looking back on my LiveScribe archive, I notice a paradoxical trend: I took significantly better notes in classes that had support from solid permanent materials. Why? Because I was able to stop taking notes, focus, and fill things in later when appropriate as opposed to trying and failing to do #1 and #2 at the same time.
tokipin 13y ago
I think it depends on the person. I never took notes in college, and doing so would have been distracting and difficult, nevermind that I would have been too lazy to ever look at my notes regardless. In my case, it's probably not possible just in terms of the way my brain is wired to listen-comprehend and write at the same time (this isn't an exaggeration. As a separate example, I can't speak/listen at all while I'm playing videogames).
bridger 13y ago
For me, I found the best was when I had the notes printed out before class. I would annotate them with extra thoughts as I watched the lecture. This kept me engaged, but not so busy writing that I couldn't actually think about the lecture.
jmccree 13y ago
I suck at auditory stuff in general, and if I have to take notes on something, I can't process any of what's being said and must basically try to frantically transcribe what's being said. The idea of expecting everyone to take notes has never made sense to me. Are they there to learn your subject or practice transcription skills?
nilkn 13y ago
Slightly off topic, but when I was in college a few years ago nobody ever expected slides unless the teacher actually used PowerPoint slides. If a teacher gave boring PowerPoint presentations and then refused to provide them to their students, that did hugely impact the way students viewed them and the class. It feels like resources are being withheld and amplifies the feeling that the class is just jumping through hoops, a game to be gamified, not something to be taken seriously. Sort of like extremely restrictive DRM on music or games--it just feels disrespectful.
- timr 13y ago
  I've had students ask me for "copies" of transparencies that I wrote, during the lecture, using an overhead projector with an acetate scroll. Granted, these were not always the brightest students, but still -- this is a new level of expectation. When the instructor begins writing on an overhead projector, it's a clue that it's time to start taking notes. That said, nobody is required to give you copies of their slides, just like they're not required to give you a free copy of the course text, or allow you to record the lecture and sell it online. And while you're free as an adult to disregard any course you choose, the instructor is not required to make your life easier to earn your attention. If you don't like the terms of the deal, you can choose not to take the class.
  - Perseids 13y ago
    > the instructor is not required to make your life easier to earn your attention. On the other hand I find it kind of disrespectful to waste my time writing down the official notes instead of using that time to understand what the lecturer is trying to teach me, when those notes exist digitally or could be just scanned from a master copy. For some people at least copying and listening to the lecture are mutually exclusive.
  - nilkn 13y ago
    Your final remark is rather callous for someone whose job, presumably, is to educate and connect with students. Perhaps ironically, it seems to reinforce the point I was making--that withholding existing resources which are trivially and by their nature redistributable from students is disrespectful. Saying "if you don't like the terms of the deal, you can choose not to take the class" really isn't helping your case.
pfarrell 13y ago
>Learning is simply better when you have to write things down. Definitely true for me. As an undergraduate, I found the following method to be most successful. I attended every class, transcribed the lecture in my own words as it was taught, and pre-read (once) the next lectures textbook stuff. When exam time came, I only had to review my notes the night before the eXam. Come to think of it, I still have fairly good recall of the knowledge I gained using that method (many years hence). The memorization stuff, tho, I have to practice on trivia sites to recall. We're talking about learning, so, of course, ymmv.
agumonkey 13y ago
learning by doing reminds me of Jaron Lanier experiments in embedding people into 'animals' [1]. I believe your brain is eager to swallow analog and massive data, and actually doing things will be much more mechanically sympathetic and fruitful. Maybe that's why scanning a book by running pages under your thumb leaves a better trail in my brain than having symbolic bookmarks on an e-reader (for small numbers obviously) [1] don't know how, maybe a suit with VR goggles in a game with tweaked physics and different limb constraints, anything to throw your habits off.
makmanalp 13y ago
I think part of this is that students are conditioned to ignore lecture because of the sheer amount of bad lectures they've had. I've had quite a few terrible lecturers where the professor had no clue how to teach, and was simply reading off the book or using the publisher-supplied slides that came with the book (which are often terrible). When this happens often enough, students internalize that lecture is a waste of time and they can learn better themselves. Some won't even show up, others will show up purely to get attendance credit but do something else. For people to listen, lecture needs to provide something that simply reading a book doesn't.
antman 13y ago
I am taking a course now after 15+years out of college and I see it differently. The best thing is having the slides before the lesson in pdf and keeping notes on a tablet. I take freeform notes on the slides with a pen and then I rewrite them at home in text boxes on the slides. Notes are searchable at home (Linux) and at work (windows) with DocFetcher, and the tablet sync happens with btsync. Everything is automated, I can watch the presentation and keep complete and meaningful notes. The professor is very good and he keeps mentioning details and intuitions that I would not have time absorb or note if I spent all my time rewriting math equations that are all over the internet. This is for a math heavy course but I think it applies to most type of courses.

by timr 13y ago

dsrguru 13y ago

> Learning is simply better when you have to write things down. I disagree. Learning is better when you aren't able to diddle on your laptop or phone, and having to write things down strongly encourages you not to do those things, but the actual act of writing things down forces you to focus on quickly copying text, which hugely impairs your ability to internalize what was said. Some people's learning styles might make that less of a problem (i.e. so-called auditory learners might be able to internalize what's being said nearly at the speed it's spoken), but for those of us who need to translate what we hear into our own mental language, constant note-taking substantially hampers the learning process. The ideal for me is to preview the notes of a lecture before it's given a la Khan Academy, pay full attention during the lecture, occasionally jot down a keyword to trigger the memory of a thought I had during the lecture, and if I didn't have the opportunity to preview the lecture notes then I'll want to be able to access them afterwards to look up anything I don't remember. Edit: Corrective upvote because you didn't say anything that harms the discussion.

bjelkeman-again 13y ago
Different people have different learning styles. I often would draw pictures that represent what the lecturer would be saying. Which helps me memorising. It would have been perfect if I then had had an audio recording pen, which associates the doodle with the recording, but I got that after it stopped going to lectures.
testrun 13y ago
What is a corrective upvote and who gives it to you?
- tinco 13y ago
  It's when you make a comment that makes the parents position seem silly, you up vote the parent to correct for people downvoting parent because they strongly agree with your comment.
wiredfool 13y ago
I find that I learn the best, and pay attention the best when I'm making notes. Even if I never refer to them again, burn them, throw them out, whatever. Hear, write, see, understand. Epic problem sets are also effective. Scanning other people's lecture notes, even if it's the professor, was worth maybe 5-10% of listening and writing the notes.
- reeses 13y ago
  Rewriting à la Cornell is another huge step for retention.
- matwood 13y ago
  Taking that 1 step further. When I was in school I would take notes in class with pencil and paper. My studying session consisted of typing those notes up while filling in the gaps from the book(s). Simple strategy that worked remarkably well.
wisty 13y ago
> Some people's learning styles might make that less of a problem (i.e. so-called auditory learners might be able to internalize what's being said nearly at the speed it's spoken), but for those of us who need to translate what we hear into our own mental language, constant note-taking substantially hampers the learning process. Learning styles is more or less discredited. IIRC, research indicated that most students respond similarly to the same learning styles. The main difference between students tends to be whether or not they understand previous material. I'm not saying that different mediums is a bad idea - most students do respond well to diagrams, explanations, examples, practice, etc. Research supports note taking, so it's probably a good thing for most students. However, it might not be good for all subjects - math and programming requires a lot less memorisation of facts, and a lot more thinking. If you want to understand dynamic programming, simply memorising the key points won't help you much. If you want to learn a new API, then writing down important methods might.
- jacobolus 13y ago
  Speaking only for myself, taking copious notes in class always substantially hampered my ability to keep up. The only times I took such notes were in a couple of mathematics courses which moved at a blistering pace and had no textbook or other provided material: in those, it was essential to write everything down so that it could be studied and learned later, after class. But the act of writing during those classes made it quite a bit harder to follow the lectures while they were happening. I would have much preferred to receive hand-outs with the same definitions/theorems on it a day or two before the lecture, so that I could have put my full attention on the professor and the material. In basically all other courses, I only wrote notes when struck by particularly insightful thoughts I wanted to remember later, and my notes as often were about my own reactions as about what the professors were saying. But because I find it easy to focus and pay close attention in lectures, I generally had better recall afterward than most of my peers, even the ones who spent much more time “studying” their notes later. * * * By contrast, I had several friends who could only follow lectures by writing notes while in class, because otherwise they found lectures hard to focus on, and because they found that the physical act of writing what they heard to enormously help their later recall (not to mention they had a physical artifact they could refer to afterward). * * * I would like to see your sources for the statement “learning styles is more or less discredited”, as it does not align with my experience either as a student, as an observer of other students, or as the son of a school teacher. It seems completely obvious and non-controversial to me that some people have an easier time following verbal conversation than others, that some have an easier time reading/writing, that some people are more attuned to pictures/graphic elements, etc. Maybe “learning styles” is a bad name for this, and I personally believe that it’s mostly the result of practice and acculturation rather than anything genetic/inherent, but it still remains obviously (to me) true that different students find different modalities and teaching/learning methods more effective.
ag80 13y ago
There is some indication that hand writing notes results in better retention: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wray-herbert/ink-on-paper-some-notes-o_b_4681440.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wray-herbert/ink-on-paper-some... Some searching also pulls results from a few years ago with similar headlines.
abhaga 13y ago
This. Being a slow writer, it was a constant struggle for me through out school & college to keep pace with the instructors. I can imagine the same problem for the instructor as well - you need to be reasonably legible and fast to be able to cover everything. On the other hand, I have often found PowerPoint based presentations to be boring and uninspiring. I remember a class on Thermodynamics from college that I found so boring for this reason that I nearly flunked it. The best classes I have taken have been once which are primarily PowerPoint based with instructor jumping onto a whiteboard to flesh something out as required. PowerPoint provides the peace of mind that it will all be available if I need to refer to it later and working on whiteboard brings in the engagement and chance to go off track in between.
swah 13y ago
I had the same concern of not "taking note of everything", which Powerpoint solves (the teacher just sends you the file). But the better solution is that you watch the class w/o having to stop paying attention to write, maybe take notes for important stuff, and the class is also recorded and available in your uni website (like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3nbY3hIDLQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3nbY3hIDLQ ... can't be that expensive to put a camera and a big red button "start recording" in each room. Could even be a student project...) (Sal Khan also mentions that his nephews preferred him on Youtube than in-person because they could pause and rewind). (And by the way, I hate that universities that teach technology aren't themselves automatized, with superb intranet, etc...)

johnminter 13y ago

Do you want them to listen to you or be frantically writing? It is A LOT easier to annotate a PDF while pondering the concepts. Too many lectures are like a firehose...

ksk 13y ago
Why did you introduce your own bias by misrepresenting the parent comment? No one is claiming that "frantically writing" throughout the lectures is a good thing.
- Perseids 13y ago
  Often you have no other choice then to frantically writing it down. jjoonathan argued that point nicely: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7363493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7363493
  - ksk 13y ago
    "Learning is simply better when you have to write things down. You're engaging your eyes, your ears and your brain...and you're well aware when you're goofing off." Where does it say "frantically writing" is good? Sorry, I have no idea what you think you're replying to.
    - Perseids 13y ago
      ( I'm not johnminter btw. :) ) It is not a direct reply to what timr wrote, but to where his/her sentiment leads with lectures that are densely packed with information. I've had quite a few classes where the lecturer "didn't believe in lecture notes" because "you will be so much more attentive" and "learn so much more when you write stuff down". As I still needed all the precise definitions and wordings of the theorems I did end up frantically copying the lecture.
      - ksk 13y ago
        I did know who I was replying to :) There doesn't seem to be an overlap of discussion. Writing down what you know (esp. in your own words) causes reinforcement of long term memories is a well established scientific fact. Ofcource reviewing notes is also critical in strengthening those memories so that you recall precise details rather than vague ideas. You're talking about not being overwhelmed with taking notes - which again, nobody was claiming is a good thing. I agree that information like formulas, equations, definitions, etc should definitely be provided without having the student write them down and introduce errors of their own.

jjoonathan 13y ago

> Learning is simply better when you have to write things down. If the pace and level of a lecture is such that you can both listen and write things down, then yes, I'd agree that having the extra check is helpful. When you re-create an argument or diagram on paper you force yourself to work out the wrinkles and pay attention to the details in a way that you never do if you're just staring at a slide. However, not all lectures work that way unless you consistently take classes below your level. Sometimes you get hung up on a concept and you're forced to do two things at once: 1) copy the text & diagrams verbatim 2) understand the material where #1 is significantly more cognitively demanding than reproducing an argument that you already understand (unless you have photographic memory, you look back and forth and back and forth) to the point that it inhibits #2, which creates a further need for #1 in a spiral of uninterrupted misery and needless failure. This is where premade notes shine. They don't have to be a .ppt (I'd prefer if they were TeX sheets or a book chapter, assuming the book chapter actually corresponds to the same material) but they have to be there if you want students to be able to occasionally focus 100% on what you're saying. Looking back on my LiveScribe archive, I notice a paradoxical trend: I took significantly better notes in classes that had support from solid permanent materials. Why? Because I was able to stop taking notes, focus, and fill things in later when appropriate as opposed to trying and failing to do #1 and #2 at the same time.

tokipin 13y ago

I think it depends on the person. I never took notes in college, and doing so would have been distracting and difficult, nevermind that I would have been too lazy to ever look at my notes regardless. In my case, it's probably not possible just in terms of the way my brain is wired to listen-comprehend and write at the same time (this isn't an exaggeration. As a separate example, I can't speak/listen at all while I'm playing videogames).

bridger 13y ago

For me, I found the best was when I had the notes printed out before class. I would annotate them with extra thoughts as I watched the lecture. This kept me engaged, but not so busy writing that I couldn't actually think about the lecture.

jmccree 13y ago

I suck at auditory stuff in general, and if I have to take notes on something, I can't process any of what's being said and must basically try to frantically transcribe what's being said. The idea of expecting everyone to take notes has never made sense to me. Are they there to learn your subject or practice transcription skills?

nilkn 13y ago

Slightly off topic, but when I was in college a few years ago nobody ever expected slides unless the teacher actually used PowerPoint slides. If a teacher gave boring PowerPoint presentations and then refused to provide them to their students, that did hugely impact the way students viewed them and the class. It feels like resources are being withheld and amplifies the feeling that the class is just jumping through hoops, a game to be gamified, not something to be taken seriously. Sort of like extremely restrictive DRM on music or games--it just feels disrespectful.

timr 13y ago
I've had students ask me for "copies" of transparencies that I wrote, during the lecture, using an overhead projector with an acetate scroll. Granted, these were not always the brightest students, but still -- this is a new level of expectation. When the instructor begins writing on an overhead projector, it's a clue that it's time to start taking notes. That said, nobody is required to give you copies of their slides, just like they're not required to give you a free copy of the course text, or allow you to record the lecture and sell it online. And while you're free as an adult to disregard any course you choose, the instructor is not required to make your life easier to earn your attention. If you don't like the terms of the deal, you can choose not to take the class.
- Perseids 13y ago
  > the instructor is not required to make your life easier to earn your attention. On the other hand I find it kind of disrespectful to waste my time writing down the official notes instead of using that time to understand what the lecturer is trying to teach me, when those notes exist digitally or could be just scanned from a master copy. For some people at least copying and listening to the lecture are mutually exclusive.
- nilkn 13y ago
  Your final remark is rather callous for someone whose job, presumably, is to educate and connect with students. Perhaps ironically, it seems to reinforce the point I was making--that withholding existing resources which are trivially and by their nature redistributable from students is disrespectful. Saying "if you don't like the terms of the deal, you can choose not to take the class" really isn't helping your case.

pfarrell 13y ago

>Learning is simply better when you have to write things down. Definitely true for me. As an undergraduate, I found the following method to be most successful. I attended every class, transcribed the lecture in my own words as it was taught, and pre-read (once) the next lectures textbook stuff. When exam time came, I only had to review my notes the night before the eXam. Come to think of it, I still have fairly good recall of the knowledge I gained using that method (many years hence). The memorization stuff, tho, I have to practice on trivia sites to recall. We're talking about learning, so, of course, ymmv.

agumonkey 13y ago

learning by doing reminds me of Jaron Lanier experiments in embedding people into 'animals' [1]. I believe your brain is eager to swallow analog and massive data, and actually doing things will be much more mechanically sympathetic and fruitful. Maybe that's why scanning a book by running pages under your thumb leaves a better trail in my brain than having symbolic bookmarks on an e-reader (for small numbers obviously) [1] don't know how, maybe a suit with VR goggles in a game with tweaked physics and different limb constraints, anything to throw your habits off.

makmanalp 13y ago

I think part of this is that students are conditioned to ignore lecture because of the sheer amount of bad lectures they've had. I've had quite a few terrible lecturers where the professor had no clue how to teach, and was simply reading off the book or using the publisher-supplied slides that came with the book (which are often terrible). When this happens often enough, students internalize that lecture is a waste of time and they can learn better themselves. Some won't even show up, others will show up purely to get attendance credit but do something else. For people to listen, lecture needs to provide something that simply reading a book doesn't.

antman 13y ago

I am taking a course now after 15+years out of college and I see it differently. The best thing is having the slides before the lesson in pdf and keeping notes on a tablet. I take freeform notes on the slides with a pen and then I rewrite them at home in text boxes on the slides. Notes are searchable at home (Linux) and at work (windows) with DocFetcher, and the tablet sync happens with btsync. Everything is automated, I can watch the presentation and keep complete and meaningful notes. The professor is very good and he keeps mentioning details and intuitions that I would not have time absorb or note if I spent all my time rewriting math equations that are all over the internet. This is for a math heavy course but I think it applies to most type of courses.