13 ms·

Keurig Will Use DRM In New Coffee Maker

133 points by midnitewarrior 13y ago

nsxwolf 13y ago
I'm not sure why they would attempt this. If they think they're going to get DMCA protection out of it, Lexmark already lost a case that seems to be this exactly: Lexmark Int'l v. Static Control Components http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_Int'l_v._Static_Control_Components http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_Int'l_v._Static_Control... All they can do is make it harder for competitors to make compatible cups, but that sounds like a fool's errand.
- eli 13y ago
  IANAL but the Lexmark case doesn't seem like it necessarily says the DMCA doesn't apply to physical products, just that it doesn't apply in the way that Lexmark implemented it. Also isn't part of the case still pending decision of the Supreme Court?
brianbreslin 13y ago
Didn't their patent on the keurig machines expire recently? These machines were invented decades ago, only hitting mainstream in the last 5 years.
- bunderbunder 13y ago
  Yup. Hence this move - they still want to be the only ones selling K-cups.
  - thrillgore 13y ago
    After the patents expired, I noticed that Kroger released their own "Simple Truth" coffee pods that are the smaller, paper-lined ones that you can recycle. Oh, they also taste better than the Keurig K-Cups.
mikegioia 13y ago
I actively try to dissuade people from buying Keurig machines, or any "coffee pod" machine and this is just another reason why. Aside from the fact that the coffee is watery, the pods just add such an unnecessary amount of garbage to something that doesn't need to generate any waste. I think the concept is cool but re-usable pods are the way to go. This is stupid of Keurig.
- CoachRufus87 13y ago
  Keurig machines do have reusable pods.
- giarc 13y ago
  Other than the 2 reasons you mentioned, why else would you dissuade someone from buying one? I own one and don't mind the coffee. I agree with the garbage aspect, but for me I'd either buy a coffee everyday, or make one in the Keurig with a reusable cup. Equivalent waste in my mind (for my situation)
  - MrZongle2 13y ago
    They appear to have the tendency to fail at around 18 months, even if they undergo routine, recommended maintenance. Got a Keurig for my wife as a Christmas present three years ago. Generated about 10 cups of coffee per week, and was very happy with the product. Performed the de-scaling maintenance regularly....still broke down after about a year and a half. Went online to see how to repair it, and wasn't encouraged by the number of similar stories.
    - giarc 13y ago
      I see. It's bad, but when I read "fail around 18 months" I think to myself "I only paid $60 for my Keurig, 18 months sounds pretty good." I guess the manufacturing giants have succeeded in making us believe electronic consumer goods shouldn't last long.
    - navbaker2 13y ago
      Wow, I feel like a lucky man! I bought one of the low-end models for ~$110 3 years ago, have used it making 8-10 cups a day between my wife and me with the re-usable plastic cups, and it's still going strong!
giarc 13y ago
Keurig is free to do what they want, just as a consumer is free to choose whichever coffee maker they want. Maybe this will blow up in their face, or perhaps given their market share it will all work out.
- HarryHirsch 13y ago
  This practice isn't what copyright was intended for when it was written into the constitution. The idea is that copyright is a time-limited monopoly to make money of immaterial property, it mustn't serve to lock out the secondary market for printer cartridges and coffee.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    The way it should work is, Keurig should be able to do whatever they want in terms of DRM on their hardware, and other companies should be able to do whatever they want in terms of reverse engineering that DRM to produce compatible products. I don't know if that's how the law actually is, but it sounds like it might be.
    - Consultant32452 13y ago
      With the DMCA it is illegal for competitors to reverse engineer the DRM to produce compatible products.
      - AUmrysh 13y ago
        It's illegal for them to reverse engineer (and reimplement) hardware DRM for interoperability, but software DRM circumvention is protected by DMCA, only for the purpose of interoperability.
    - PeterisP 13y ago
      In my jurisdiction, interoperability is a valid legal reason to ignore copyright restriction. Actually, I believe that none of the current global copyright agreements would prohibit anyone from distributing products that flagrantly circumvent that DRM, there's only the USA-specific DMCA.
jessaustin 13y ago
This strategy seems kind of backwards to me. Keurig isn't a dominant household appliance marketer using that position to jumpstart a lucrative tie-in sideline. While that would be regrettable for consumers, it might actually work for the marketer. Rather, they are a food marketer who will attempt to defend their "primary" business with a tenuous temporary lead in a kitchen appliance category. How long will it be until Hamilton-Beach, Panasonic, Oster, or KitchenAid notice this market oddity and stomp them flat? Maybe Keurig should just roast better coffee?
utopkara 13y ago
Good luck to them. Their coffee machines/designs are horrible. Hopefully this will cost them a huge market share and people will drink less plastic. http://www.coffeedetective.com/is-the-plastic-used-in-keurig-kcups-safe.html http://www.coffeedetective.com/is-the-plastic-used-in-keurig...
jcampbell1 13y ago
Does anyone know of a source for generic K-Cups that are decent quality? I seriously thought about doing it as a startup as it seemed untapped when I was looking.
- ToastyMallows 13y ago
  I'm pretty sure this is the one I bought for my coffee maker, works great, never had an issue. Be sure to check to see if your model is compatible. http://smile.amazon.com/Ekobrew-Refillable-Keurig-Brewers-1-Count/dp/B0051SU0OW http://smile.amazon.com/Ekobrew-Refillable-Keurig-Brewers-1-...
- teach 13y ago
  This may not be what you're asking, but my wife and I have found that San Francisco Bay's single serve coffees[1] are quite good (better than most K-cups) and are cheaper since they don't use Keurig's design. A win-win from our perspective. We buy them at Costco. [1] http://www.sanfranciscobaycoffee.com/index.php/thoughts-on-onecups/ http://www.sanfranciscobaycoffee.com/index.php/thoughts-on-o...
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Crake 13y ago
  I like these: http://www.amazon.com/Brooklyn-Beans-Variety-Single-cup-Brewers/dp/B008I1XPKA http://www.amazon.com/Brooklyn-Beans-Variety-Single-cup-Brew...
corresation 13y ago
I believe both Tassimo and the "Nespresso" already have DRM, although they pitch it under the premise that it's a coded system for the perfect brew. So in many ways the Keurig is late to the party.
- ehPReth 13y ago
  Chris R. Chapman did some reversing work on the Tassimo barcodes - could be a fun read: http://www.chapmanconsulting.ca/post/2007/11/29/Hacking-the-Tassimo-single-serve-coffee-machine.aspx http://www.chapmanconsulting.ca/post/2007/11/29/Hacking-the-...
  - joezydeco 13y ago
    Note that the new Nespresso "Vertuoline" capsules have put the barcode in a more difficult place. DRM escalation? http://www.singleserveespresso.com/pictures/NespressoVertuoLineCapsule.jpg http://www.singleserveespresso.com/pictures/NespressoVertuoL...
- DanHulton 13y ago
  Pretty sure the Nespresso ones don't. Source: I own one at home and we have one in the office and they haven't got any barcodes on any of the capsules. Heck, it'll run without any capsule at all. Tassimo does, though.
shittyanalogy 13y ago
Regular Coffee: Grounds inside a tin can you scoop. Depending on your process, a thin paper filter. Coffee to volume is very dense for shipping. Pod Coffee: Single use plastic pods with a foil lid inside a plastic bag inside a cardboard box. Coffee to volume is very sparse for shipping. The benefit of not having to use a spoon is worth all the extra trash? Now with DRM?
- eddieroger 13y ago
  Living up to your username there.
jotm 13y ago
Well, I guess it's back to the good old coffee machines, then.
jgh 13y ago
Well, if you like coffee and are in the US (or Canada maybe now, I'm not sure) I'd recommend checking out Tonx (www.tonx.org) I've been subscribed for about a year and a half now and can say that I really love everything they send us. It's not going to get you some instant Keurig coffee but honestly you don't have 10 minutes in the morning to brew something decent? Like put it on and then get dressed or something.
Zelphyr 13y ago
So now I have to ONLY buy approved pods so I can drink coffee and tea that tastes like shit? No thanks. I'll keep buying my whole bean and using my AeroPress. Not as convenient but they're also not greedy doucecopters.
pwenzel 13y ago
I think I'll stick to my Chemex and compost my grounds.
drdaeman 13y ago
Well, that's disgusting. Like printer cartridge vendors. Luckily, this applies only to pods and guess probably can't do anything like that with the machines using whole beans.
jareds 13y ago
So what is an option for easily brewing a single cup of coffee without pods that will lock you into a specific machine? The things that I like about my Keurig are that you can get 4 to 6 cups before having to refill the water tank and that it’s easy to clean. While I don’t mind having to throw away a filter I would like to avoid having to refill a machine with water every time I want another cup of coffee.
- dublinben 13y ago
  The current machines will continue to work, and have a large ecosystem of coffee pods available.
  - jareds 13y ago
    I've had mine for two years. If it breaks I'd consider getting something else to replace it out of principle.
- knappador 13y ago
  French press. 0% packaging garbage, extracts 100% of the good of coffee. Numerous suppliers. Compatible with any hot water devices and coffee packaging. Larger models are easily configured to produce single or several cup amounts. Portable models can get you out the door as soon as the water is hot and you can drink on the way.
  - BuildTheRobots 13y ago
    This. You can even get travel mugs with the press bit built in. -eg: http://www.bodum.com/gb/en-us/shop/detail/K11102-01/ http://www.bodum.com/gb/en-us/shop/detail/K11102-01/
  - hudibras 13y ago
    Clean up takes a little longer than hand-dripping, though.
- binxbolling 13y ago
  I'd be interested in knowing of a Keurig alternative as well. I realize everyone in here is saying the coffee is terrible, but frankly it's good enough for me. If that makes me a philistine, so be it. Personally, the convenience trumps a lot of other factors when it comes to coffee.
kgermino 13y ago
>third-party pod refills that often retail for 5-25% less than what Keurig charges How expensive are these pods? I certainly understand going generic to save 25% but a K-cup machine strikes me as a premium product. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd think the people willing/able to pay extra for a high end coffee maker wouldn't waste time experimenting with generics to save 5% (what, a couple cents a cup at most?).
- AUmrysh 13y ago
  It's about convenience. Also consider that many workplaces provide the Keurig machine in common areas (kitchens, cafeterias) for employees to use their own k-cups with. One of my former employers actually had a contract with their vending machine provider where the Keurig machines were provided for free, but they were required to purchase a minimum monthly k-cup amount from the vendor. The reasoning was that "a lot of coffee is being thrown out in the afternoon", so they wanted to cut waste by using the Keurig machine in the afternoon when fewer people were making coffee. When you actually do the math, an entire pot of coffee (10 cups) cost the same as a single Keurig cup. The logic didn't seem very sound to me, and I suspect it had more to do with the convenience of making a single cup and not having to clean up after yourself. The k-cups cost about 30 to 50 cents each, unless you buy thousands of them.
- makomk 13y ago
  Many of the third-party pods for these kinds of machines aren't exactly downmarket, they just have less of a markup than the official ones.
joesmo 13y ago
"Such lock-out technology cannot be justified based on any purported consumer benefit, and Green Mountain itself has admitted that the lock-out technology is not essential for the new brewers’ function. Like its exclusionary agreements, this lock-out technology is intended to serve anticompetitive and unlawful ends." This is not different from any other DRM mechanism. Unfortunately, that also makes it legal.
magic8ball 13y ago
To play's devil advocate and stop the circle jerking, let's do an intellectual exercise and try to think about why this might not be the dumbest decision ever. Maybe it could be more than just a ploy to increase sales of 1st party cups. Maybe it's about Quality control. I grew up playing a lot of Nintendo games. SNES. N64. Gamecube. Wii. There was one thing I noticed about it. Nintendo always made the best stuff. They made the best controllers. The best games. The best memory cards. I had a 3rd party memory card that said it stored "56 blocks." But if you tried to put more than 20 on it, you'd sometimes find your data magically lost in the morning.So despite the GNU/Linux ethos (I'm typing this on a Linux machine), freedom to use 3rd parties does not always give a better user experience. More than that, I found Nintendo also had to approve every single game and accessory that was compatible with their system (seal of approval). So even that was considered the good stuff. This seal keeps a certain floor of quality control. Back in the days of the Atari, people were making all sorts of shit for it. Stupid consumers would buy it, use it with their Atari, and be frustrated. Nintendo forbade this and made sure everything that was associated with their product met a certain standard, thus giving a good experience. So maybe, Keurig will use their DRM for this. A way to help consumers, perhaps, figure out which cups are good.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  >freedom to use 3rd parties does not always give a better user experience. This is either a straw man or only very pedantically correct. Is anyone here claiming that 3rd parties always give a better user experience? If not, it's a straw man. If you are actually referring to the "freedom to use 3rd parties" not giving a better user experience - the user experience is either going to be equivalent or better, because freedom to use a 3rd party != must use a 3rd party.
- brodney 13y ago
  Back then it was more difficult to tell the crap from the quality stuff. Crap substitutes don't last too long on the market these days with online reviews. I'm rarely hesitant to buy something with a ton of good reviews, and further that means more to me than would a Keurig Seal of Approval.
- drcoopster 13y ago
ignostic 13y ago
This case doesn't have anything to do with DRM as the title suggest. It's more clear in the article: "the java-bean equivalent of DRM". As far as I can tell it's actually just allegations of patent abuse and anti-competitive vertical integration. Keurig had a patent on the technology for both machine and pod. That patent expired in 2012, allowing third-party vendors to start making pods. Treehouse Foods argues (among other things) that Keurig is changing the design of their machine and the pods. The allegation is that the new design doesn't have any practical purpose other than to maintain the patent on pods for several years. If true, this is going to be an interesting case. Keurig can change the design of their machine whenever they want in theory, but can they do so for no other reason than to maintain their own market share? They'd be effectively forcing everyone to pay them to compete at all so long as people buy new machines. Drug companies often employ similar patent tricks in order to maintain their dominance of a market via extended patents, patents on new uses for the same chemical, and slightly-altered and somewhat improved chemicals. Consumer groups have complained about this for years, but nothing serious has changed yet.
- digikata 13y ago
  If the patent is expired, one wonders if some company may reverse engineer the Keurig 1.0 design, and continue their manufacture (along with all the factories that are already tooled for the 1.0 cups.)
  - wtallis 13y ago
    If the patent is expired, then reverse engineering had better not be necessary, or else the original patent was insufficiently detailed to be valid.
    - shasta 13y ago
      The patent was required to be sufficiently detailed to allow producing compatible cups? I don't think so.
      - ghayes 13y ago
Osiris 13y ago
I suppose that one of the benefits of not drinking coffee is not needing to worry about all of this. The lunch room at the office has a Keurig machine and it gets jammed a lot because of the air pressure differential (Denver is at 5200 feet). If you don't properly puncture the package when you insert it, the air pressure causes something to go wrong and the machine jams up.
keithpeter 13y ago
I feel completely out-nerded here. I shall just spoon some fine ground coffee from the local shop into my moka pot tomorrow and pop it on the hotplate. As others have said, I actually like the reflective few minutes the process takes early in the morning with the back door open...
- HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
  I'm guessing that you live someplace where, unlike where I am, the temperature outside the back door is warmer than -15F ;-)
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    UK: Spring like weather at present, an invigorating 5 degrees C this morning at 7am.
Hawkee 13y ago
I could never justify the cost of a Keurig when a traditional coffee maker costs just 20% the price. After using a drip machine for many years I finally decided to brave a more unique solution, the Aeropress. Now I know what great coffee tastes like. I tried a Keurig equivalent recently and I can't believe how much worse it tastes. With a Keurig you pay a premium price for poor quality coffee.
- eddieroger 13y ago
  For me, my Keurig is a combination of speed, convenience and utility. The coffee it makes is a method for caffeine delivery, not coffee enjoyment. On the weekends or when I have more time, I'll make a better cup of coffee. Monday morning when I'm trying to get to work, I'll grab a travel mug of Keurig.
m_mueller 13y ago
This reminds me very much of the situation we had here in Switzerland. Two years ago Nestle's Swiss patent on their capsules expired, so now the market gets flooded with third party 'compatible' capsules. Lately they've introduced new Nespresso machines that automatically eject the used capsules using an electric motor. This has introduced much smaller tolerances, so the machine often gets stuck on third party capsules.
blueskin_ 13y ago
...and now, nobody technical will buy one.

133 points by midnitewarrior 13y ago

I'm not sure why they would attempt this. If they think they're going to get DMCA protection out of it, Lexmark already lost a case that seems to be this exactly: Lexmark Int'l v. Static Control Components http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_Int'l_v._Static_Control_Components http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_Int'l_v._Static_Control... All they can do is make it harder for competitors to make compatible cups, but that sounds like a fool's errand.

eli 13y ago
IANAL but the Lexmark case doesn't seem like it necessarily says the DMCA doesn't apply to physical products, just that it doesn't apply in the way that Lexmark implemented it. Also isn't part of the case still pending decision of the Supreme Court?

brianbreslin 13y ago

Didn't their patent on the keurig machines expire recently? These machines were invented decades ago, only hitting mainstream in the last 5 years.

bunderbunder 13y ago
Yup. Hence this move - they still want to be the only ones selling K-cups.
- thrillgore 13y ago
  After the patents expired, I noticed that Kroger released their own "Simple Truth" coffee pods that are the smaller, paper-lined ones that you can recycle. Oh, they also taste better than the Keurig K-Cups.

mikegioia 13y ago

I actively try to dissuade people from buying Keurig machines, or any "coffee pod" machine and this is just another reason why. Aside from the fact that the coffee is watery, the pods just add such an unnecessary amount of garbage to something that doesn't need to generate any waste. I think the concept is cool but re-usable pods are the way to go. This is stupid of Keurig.

CoachRufus87 13y ago
Keurig machines do have reusable pods.
giarc 13y ago
Other than the 2 reasons you mentioned, why else would you dissuade someone from buying one? I own one and don't mind the coffee. I agree with the garbage aspect, but for me I'd either buy a coffee everyday, or make one in the Keurig with a reusable cup. Equivalent waste in my mind (for my situation)
- MrZongle2 13y ago
  They appear to have the tendency to fail at around 18 months, even if they undergo routine, recommended maintenance. Got a Keurig for my wife as a Christmas present three years ago. Generated about 10 cups of coffee per week, and was very happy with the product. Performed the de-scaling maintenance regularly....still broke down after about a year and a half. Went online to see how to repair it, and wasn't encouraged by the number of similar stories.
  - giarc 13y ago
    I see. It's bad, but when I read "fail around 18 months" I think to myself "I only paid $60 for my Keurig, 18 months sounds pretty good." I guess the manufacturing giants have succeeded in making us believe electronic consumer goods shouldn't last long.
  - navbaker2 13y ago
    Wow, I feel like a lucky man! I bought one of the low-end models for ~$110 3 years ago, have used it making 8-10 cups a day between my wife and me with the re-usable plastic cups, and it's still going strong!

giarc 13y ago

Keurig is free to do what they want, just as a consumer is free to choose whichever coffee maker they want. Maybe this will blow up in their face, or perhaps given their market share it will all work out.

HarryHirsch 13y ago
This practice isn't what copyright was intended for when it was written into the constitution. The idea is that copyright is a time-limited monopoly to make money of immaterial property, it mustn't serve to lock out the secondary market for printer cartridges and coffee.
- mikeash 13y ago
  The way it should work is, Keurig should be able to do whatever they want in terms of DRM on their hardware, and other companies should be able to do whatever they want in terms of reverse engineering that DRM to produce compatible products. I don't know if that's how the law actually is, but it sounds like it might be.
  - Consultant32452 13y ago
    With the DMCA it is illegal for competitors to reverse engineer the DRM to produce compatible products.
    - AUmrysh 13y ago
      It's illegal for them to reverse engineer (and reimplement) hardware DRM for interoperability, but software DRM circumvention is protected by DMCA, only for the purpose of interoperability.
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    In my jurisdiction, interoperability is a valid legal reason to ignore copyright restriction. Actually, I believe that none of the current global copyright agreements would prohibit anyone from distributing products that flagrantly circumvent that DRM, there's only the USA-specific DMCA.

jessaustin 13y ago

This strategy seems kind of backwards to me. Keurig isn't a dominant household appliance marketer using that position to jumpstart a lucrative tie-in sideline. While that would be regrettable for consumers, it might actually work for the marketer. Rather, they are a food marketer who will attempt to defend their "primary" business with a tenuous temporary lead in a kitchen appliance category. How long will it be until Hamilton-Beach, Panasonic, Oster, or KitchenAid notice this market oddity and stomp them flat? Maybe Keurig should just roast better coffee?

utopkara 13y ago

Good luck to them. Their coffee machines/designs are horrible. Hopefully this will cost them a huge market share and people will drink less plastic. http://www.coffeedetective.com/is-the-plastic-used-in-keurig-kcups-safe.html http://www.coffeedetective.com/is-the-plastic-used-in-keurig...

jcampbell1 13y ago

Does anyone know of a source for generic K-Cups that are decent quality? I seriously thought about doing it as a startup as it seemed untapped when I was looking.

ToastyMallows 13y ago
I'm pretty sure this is the one I bought for my coffee maker, works great, never had an issue. Be sure to check to see if your model is compatible. http://smile.amazon.com/Ekobrew-Refillable-Keurig-Brewers-1-Count/dp/B0051SU0OW http://smile.amazon.com/Ekobrew-Refillable-Keurig-Brewers-1-...
teach 13y ago
This may not be what you're asking, but my wife and I have found that San Francisco Bay's single serve coffees[1] are quite good (better than most K-cups) and are cheaper since they don't use Keurig's design. A win-win from our perspective. We buy them at Costco. [1] http://www.sanfranciscobaycoffee.com/index.php/thoughts-on-onecups/ http://www.sanfranciscobaycoffee.com/index.php/thoughts-on-o...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Crake 13y ago
I like these: http://www.amazon.com/Brooklyn-Beans-Variety-Single-cup-Brewers/dp/B008I1XPKA http://www.amazon.com/Brooklyn-Beans-Variety-Single-cup-Brew...

corresation 13y ago

I believe both Tassimo and the "Nespresso" already have DRM, although they pitch it under the premise that it's a coded system for the perfect brew. So in many ways the Keurig is late to the party.

ehPReth 13y ago
Chris R. Chapman did some reversing work on the Tassimo barcodes - could be a fun read: http://www.chapmanconsulting.ca/post/2007/11/29/Hacking-the-Tassimo-single-serve-coffee-machine.aspx http://www.chapmanconsulting.ca/post/2007/11/29/Hacking-the-...
- joezydeco 13y ago
  Note that the new Nespresso "Vertuoline" capsules have put the barcode in a more difficult place. DRM escalation? http://www.singleserveespresso.com/pictures/NespressoVertuoLineCapsule.jpg http://www.singleserveespresso.com/pictures/NespressoVertuoL...
DanHulton 13y ago
Pretty sure the Nespresso ones don't. Source: I own one at home and we have one in the office and they haven't got any barcodes on any of the capsules. Heck, it'll run without any capsule at all. Tassimo does, though.

shittyanalogy 13y ago

Regular Coffee: Grounds inside a tin can you scoop. Depending on your process, a thin paper filter. Coffee to volume is very dense for shipping. Pod Coffee: Single use plastic pods with a foil lid inside a plastic bag inside a cardboard box. Coffee to volume is very sparse for shipping. The benefit of not having to use a spoon is worth all the extra trash? Now with DRM?

eddieroger 13y ago
Living up to your username there.

jotm 13y ago

Well, I guess it's back to the good old coffee machines, then.

jgh 13y ago

Well, if you like coffee and are in the US (or Canada maybe now, I'm not sure) I'd recommend checking out Tonx (www.tonx.org) I've been subscribed for about a year and a half now and can say that I really love everything they send us. It's not going to get you some instant Keurig coffee but honestly you don't have 10 minutes in the morning to brew something decent? Like put it on and then get dressed or something.

Zelphyr 13y ago

So now I have to ONLY buy approved pods so I can drink coffee and tea that tastes like shit? No thanks. I'll keep buying my whole bean and using my AeroPress. Not as convenient but they're also not greedy doucecopters.

pwenzel 13y ago

I think I'll stick to my Chemex and compost my grounds.

drdaeman 13y ago

Well, that's disgusting. Like printer cartridge vendors. Luckily, this applies only to pods and guess probably can't do anything like that with the machines using whole beans.

jareds 13y ago

So what is an option for easily brewing a single cup of coffee without pods that will lock you into a specific machine? The things that I like about my Keurig are that you can get 4 to 6 cups before having to refill the water tank and that it’s easy to clean. While I don’t mind having to throw away a filter I would like to avoid having to refill a machine with water every time I want another cup of coffee.

dublinben 13y ago
The current machines will continue to work, and have a large ecosystem of coffee pods available.
- jareds 13y ago
  I've had mine for two years. If it breaks I'd consider getting something else to replace it out of principle.
knappador 13y ago
French press. 0% packaging garbage, extracts 100% of the good of coffee. Numerous suppliers. Compatible with any hot water devices and coffee packaging. Larger models are easily configured to produce single or several cup amounts. Portable models can get you out the door as soon as the water is hot and you can drink on the way.
- BuildTheRobots 13y ago
  This. You can even get travel mugs with the press bit built in. -eg: http://www.bodum.com/gb/en-us/shop/detail/K11102-01/ http://www.bodum.com/gb/en-us/shop/detail/K11102-01/
- hudibras 13y ago
  Clean up takes a little longer than hand-dripping, though.
binxbolling 13y ago
I'd be interested in knowing of a Keurig alternative as well. I realize everyone in here is saying the coffee is terrible, but frankly it's good enough for me. If that makes me a philistine, so be it. Personally, the convenience trumps a lot of other factors when it comes to coffee.

kgermino 13y ago

>third-party pod refills that often retail for 5-25% less than what Keurig charges How expensive are these pods? I certainly understand going generic to save 25% but a K-cup machine strikes me as a premium product. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd think the people willing/able to pay extra for a high end coffee maker wouldn't waste time experimenting with generics to save 5% (what, a couple cents a cup at most?).

AUmrysh 13y ago
It's about convenience. Also consider that many workplaces provide the Keurig machine in common areas (kitchens, cafeterias) for employees to use their own k-cups with. One of my former employers actually had a contract with their vending machine provider where the Keurig machines were provided for free, but they were required to purchase a minimum monthly k-cup amount from the vendor. The reasoning was that "a lot of coffee is being thrown out in the afternoon", so they wanted to cut waste by using the Keurig machine in the afternoon when fewer people were making coffee. When you actually do the math, an entire pot of coffee (10 cups) cost the same as a single Keurig cup. The logic didn't seem very sound to me, and I suspect it had more to do with the convenience of making a single cup and not having to clean up after yourself. The k-cups cost about 30 to 50 cents each, unless you buy thousands of them.
makomk 13y ago
Many of the third-party pods for these kinds of machines aren't exactly downmarket, they just have less of a markup than the official ones.

joesmo 13y ago

"Such lock-out technology cannot be justified based on any purported consumer benefit, and Green Mountain itself has admitted that the lock-out technology is not essential for the new brewers’ function. Like its exclusionary agreements, this lock-out technology is intended to serve anticompetitive and unlawful ends." This is not different from any other DRM mechanism. Unfortunately, that also makes it legal.

magic8ball 13y ago

To play's devil advocate and stop the circle jerking, let's do an intellectual exercise and try to think about why this might not be the dumbest decision ever. Maybe it could be more than just a ploy to increase sales of 1st party cups. Maybe it's about Quality control. I grew up playing a lot of Nintendo games. SNES. N64. Gamecube. Wii. There was one thing I noticed about it. Nintendo always made the best stuff. They made the best controllers. The best games. The best memory cards. I had a 3rd party memory card that said it stored "56 blocks." But if you tried to put more than 20 on it, you'd sometimes find your data magically lost in the morning.So despite the GNU/Linux ethos (I'm typing this on a Linux machine), freedom to use 3rd parties does not always give a better user experience. More than that, I found Nintendo also had to approve every single game and accessory that was compatible with their system (seal of approval). So even that was considered the good stuff. This seal keeps a certain floor of quality control. Back in the days of the Atari, people were making all sorts of shit for it. Stupid consumers would buy it, use it with their Atari, and be frustrated. Nintendo forbade this and made sure everything that was associated with their product met a certain standard, thus giving a good experience. So maybe, Keurig will use their DRM for this. A way to help consumers, perhaps, figure out which cups are good.

pessimizer 13y ago
>freedom to use 3rd parties does not always give a better user experience. This is either a straw man or only very pedantically correct. Is anyone here claiming that 3rd parties always give a better user experience? If not, it's a straw man. If you are actually referring to the "freedom to use 3rd parties" not giving a better user experience - the user experience is either going to be equivalent or better, because freedom to use a 3rd party != must use a 3rd party.
brodney 13y ago
Back then it was more difficult to tell the crap from the quality stuff. Crap substitutes don't last too long on the market these days with online reviews. I'm rarely hesitant to buy something with a ton of good reviews, and further that means more to me than would a Keurig Seal of Approval.
drcoopster 13y ago

ignostic 13y ago

This case doesn't have anything to do with DRM as the title suggest. It's more clear in the article: "the java-bean equivalent of DRM". As far as I can tell it's actually just allegations of patent abuse and anti-competitive vertical integration. Keurig had a patent on the technology for both machine and pod. That patent expired in 2012, allowing third-party vendors to start making pods. Treehouse Foods argues (among other things) that Keurig is changing the design of their machine and the pods. The allegation is that the new design doesn't have any practical purpose other than to maintain the patent on pods for several years. If true, this is going to be an interesting case. Keurig can change the design of their machine whenever they want in theory, but can they do so for no other reason than to maintain their own market share? They'd be effectively forcing everyone to pay them to compete at all so long as people buy new machines. Drug companies often employ similar patent tricks in order to maintain their dominance of a market via extended patents, patents on new uses for the same chemical, and slightly-altered and somewhat improved chemicals. Consumer groups have complained about this for years, but nothing serious has changed yet.

digikata 13y ago
If the patent is expired, one wonders if some company may reverse engineer the Keurig 1.0 design, and continue their manufacture (along with all the factories that are already tooled for the 1.0 cups.)
- wtallis 13y ago
  If the patent is expired, then reverse engineering had better not be necessary, or else the original patent was insufficiently detailed to be valid.
  - shasta 13y ago
    The patent was required to be sufficiently detailed to allow producing compatible cups? I don't think so.
    - ghayes 13y ago

Osiris 13y ago

I suppose that one of the benefits of not drinking coffee is not needing to worry about all of this. The lunch room at the office has a Keurig machine and it gets jammed a lot because of the air pressure differential (Denver is at 5200 feet). If you don't properly puncture the package when you insert it, the air pressure causes something to go wrong and the machine jams up.

keithpeter 13y ago

I feel completely out-nerded here. I shall just spoon some fine ground coffee from the local shop into my moka pot tomorrow and pop it on the hotplate. As others have said, I actually like the reflective few minutes the process takes early in the morning with the back door open...

HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
I'm guessing that you live someplace where, unlike where I am, the temperature outside the back door is warmer than -15F ;-)
- keithpeter 13y ago
  UK: Spring like weather at present, an invigorating 5 degrees C this morning at 7am.

Hawkee 13y ago

I could never justify the cost of a Keurig when a traditional coffee maker costs just 20% the price. After using a drip machine for many years I finally decided to brave a more unique solution, the Aeropress. Now I know what great coffee tastes like. I tried a Keurig equivalent recently and I can't believe how much worse it tastes. With a Keurig you pay a premium price for poor quality coffee.

eddieroger 13y ago
For me, my Keurig is a combination of speed, convenience and utility. The coffee it makes is a method for caffeine delivery, not coffee enjoyment. On the weekends or when I have more time, I'll make a better cup of coffee. Monday morning when I'm trying to get to work, I'll grab a travel mug of Keurig.

m_mueller 13y ago

This reminds me very much of the situation we had here in Switzerland. Two years ago Nestle's Swiss patent on their capsules expired, so now the market gets flooded with third party 'compatible' capsules. Lately they've introduced new Nespresso machines that automatically eject the used capsules using an electric motor. This has introduced much smaller tolerances, so the machine often gets stuck on third party capsules.

blueskin_ 13y ago

...and now, nobody technical will buy one.