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So people with money frozen by MtGox are w/o recourse while the funds crash? Yikes... Kind of reminds me of that online poker company that got in trouble with

So people with money frozen by MtGox are w/o recourse while the funds crash? Yikes... Kind of reminds me of that online poker company that got in trouble with the law and people were trading "[name of company, I forgot] dollars" for below value in an attempt to recoup some of their funds.

teraflop 13y ago
The exact same thing is happening with MtGox: https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/ https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/ Looks like Gox bitcoins are currently available for roughly a 60% discount.
SwellJoe 13y ago
Yes, there are Mt Gox BTC, trading for about half of a real world BTC: https://bitcoinbuilder.com/ https://bitcoinbuilder.com/ There is some fear that funds may have been lost on a large scale, due to this bug, and that Mt Gox simply won't be able to make good on their accounts. Some have suggested that Gox is buying BTC at the current deflated price to try to cover the gap. All of this is hearsay, and I don't know how much of it I would believe. It's difficult to take the Gox folks at their word, however, given their reticence about providing details of what they're up to, and the slowness of a return to normalcy.
- StavrosK 13y ago
  I don't understand how that works. I had $1000 in my account, say, and it was worth 1 BTC. Now it's worth 10. Isn't that much more expensive for Gox to return?
  - shawabawa3 13y ago
    You aren't buying directly from Gox, it's an exchange. You can buy 10x more bitcoins with your money, but you're buying from people who have lost confidence in the exchange and believe they are more likely to get their USD out than their bitcoins. MtGox should be full reserve, that is, they should be holding 100% of all user's bitcoins and fiat deposits, only skimming off the exchange fees.
  - cbhl 13y ago
    The issue at hand is that Gox has allegedly lost BTC due to double-payouts as a result of the malleable transaction. So if the price of BTC on Gox is super low, Gox could decide that it's better to change the ledger such that instead of 10 BTC a person has $1000, instead of having to buy 10 BTC at the market price (~$10 000) and use that to reimburse the person. (Granted, considering how much trouble they were having before with USD being frozen, I can't imagine that this is a feasible move for Gox at the moment.)
    - StavrosK 13y ago
      Right, but still, they wouldn't gain much from people who had money in the system...
  - lmm 13y ago
    Sure, but for people who had 100BTC in their Gox account that was worth $100000 and is now worth $10000 that's much cheaper for Gox to return. If the balances in Gox accounts in BTC are higher than the balances in $, and/or most of Gox's own assets are in $, then it's in their interests for the BTC price to be lower.
  - saalweachter 13y ago
    You're trading coins with someone who has coins in MtGox and can't currently withdraw them. Alex has 10 GoxBTC and trades them to Bob for 1 BTC. If MtGox recovers, they give Bob 10 BTC and Alex 0. Their obligation remains unchanged.
deleted 13y ago
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avalaunch 13y ago
Poker Stars, Full Tilt Poker, and Absolute Poker/Ultimate Bet were the 3 affected by what is known as "black friday" in the poker community. Poker Stars paid back players relatively quickly so I'm not sure anyone sold any of their frozen assets on that site. For Absolute Poker, the exchange rate began at 50 cents on the dollar and plummeted quickly from there all the way down to 1 cent on the dollar. For Full Tilt, the exchange rate started higher but also eventually went as low as 1 cent on the dollar. 14 months after black friday, Poker Stars bought Full Tilt Poker and has since returned all funds owed to Full Tilt players. Ultimate Bet still has not paid any players back and likely never will. Fun story: I was a professional online poker player when black friday happened. And I just happened to be in Guatemala, on my honeymoon. Prior to going on my honeymoon, I had experienced the worst downswing in my career and all we had left (about 20k) was now frozen in my Poker Stars account. When we returned home, we didn't have enough to make the next month's mortgage payment. What we did have was about 1k in cash from our wedding gifts. The night after we got back, I took that 1k to the local casino and played in the highest cash game I could buy into. It was high risk but I didn't have time to grind it out at lower stakes. Luckily I went on an amazing heater, ran the 1k up to 10k and that was enough to last us until Poker Stars unfroze my account.
- arfliw 13y ago
  What do you do now, if you don't mind my asking? I was an online pro too. Taught myself to code since Black Friday.
  - avalaunch 13y ago
    I started coding professionally as well. I had some experience before Black Friday. I had been working on a few side projects (in Python) for a couple of years. I augmented that by attending the App Academy, which at the time was teaching Objective C.
- hangonhn 13y ago
  "The night after we got back, I took that 1k to the local casino and played in the highest cash game I could buy into. It was high risk but I didn't have time to grind it out at lower stakes. Luckily I went on an amazing heater, ran the 1k up to 10k and that was enough to last us until Poker Stars unfroze my account." That's a fantastic story my friend. It took some luck but also a lot of guts and self confidence to do that. Glad you managed it.
baddox 13y ago
It also reminds me of when governments freeze the bank accounts of certain people for various reasons.

teraflop 13y ago

The exact same thing is happening with MtGox: https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/ https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/ Looks like Gox bitcoins are currently available for roughly a 60% discount.

SwellJoe 13y ago

Yes, there are Mt Gox BTC, trading for about half of a real world BTC: https://bitcoinbuilder.com/ https://bitcoinbuilder.com/ There is some fear that funds may have been lost on a large scale, due to this bug, and that Mt Gox simply won't be able to make good on their accounts. Some have suggested that Gox is buying BTC at the current deflated price to try to cover the gap. All of this is hearsay, and I don't know how much of it I would believe. It's difficult to take the Gox folks at their word, however, given their reticence about providing details of what they're up to, and the slowness of a return to normalcy.

StavrosK 13y ago
I don't understand how that works. I had $1000 in my account, say, and it was worth 1 BTC. Now it's worth 10. Isn't that much more expensive for Gox to return?
- shawabawa3 13y ago
  You aren't buying directly from Gox, it's an exchange. You can buy 10x more bitcoins with your money, but you're buying from people who have lost confidence in the exchange and believe they are more likely to get their USD out than their bitcoins. MtGox should be full reserve, that is, they should be holding 100% of all user's bitcoins and fiat deposits, only skimming off the exchange fees.
- cbhl 13y ago
  The issue at hand is that Gox has allegedly lost BTC due to double-payouts as a result of the malleable transaction. So if the price of BTC on Gox is super low, Gox could decide that it's better to change the ledger such that instead of 10 BTC a person has $1000, instead of having to buy 10 BTC at the market price (~$10 000) and use that to reimburse the person. (Granted, considering how much trouble they were having before with USD being frozen, I can't imagine that this is a feasible move for Gox at the moment.)
  - StavrosK 13y ago
    Right, but still, they wouldn't gain much from people who had money in the system...
- lmm 13y ago
  Sure, but for people who had 100BTC in their Gox account that was worth $100000 and is now worth $10000 that's much cheaper for Gox to return. If the balances in Gox accounts in BTC are higher than the balances in $, and/or most of Gox's own assets are in $, then it's in their interests for the BTC price to be lower.
- saalweachter 13y ago
  You're trading coins with someone who has coins in MtGox and can't currently withdraw them. Alex has 10 GoxBTC and trades them to Bob for 1 BTC. If MtGox recovers, they give Bob 10 BTC and Alex 0. Their obligation remains unchanged.

deleted 13y ago

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avalaunch 13y ago

Poker Stars, Full Tilt Poker, and Absolute Poker/Ultimate Bet were the 3 affected by what is known as "black friday" in the poker community. Poker Stars paid back players relatively quickly so I'm not sure anyone sold any of their frozen assets on that site. For Absolute Poker, the exchange rate began at 50 cents on the dollar and plummeted quickly from there all the way down to 1 cent on the dollar. For Full Tilt, the exchange rate started higher but also eventually went as low as 1 cent on the dollar. 14 months after black friday, Poker Stars bought Full Tilt Poker and has since returned all funds owed to Full Tilt players. Ultimate Bet still has not paid any players back and likely never will. Fun story: I was a professional online poker player when black friday happened. And I just happened to be in Guatemala, on my honeymoon. Prior to going on my honeymoon, I had experienced the worst downswing in my career and all we had left (about 20k) was now frozen in my Poker Stars account. When we returned home, we didn't have enough to make the next month's mortgage payment. What we did have was about 1k in cash from our wedding gifts. The night after we got back, I took that 1k to the local casino and played in the highest cash game I could buy into. It was high risk but I didn't have time to grind it out at lower stakes. Luckily I went on an amazing heater, ran the 1k up to 10k and that was enough to last us until Poker Stars unfroze my account.

arfliw 13y ago
What do you do now, if you don't mind my asking? I was an online pro too. Taught myself to code since Black Friday.
- avalaunch 13y ago
  I started coding professionally as well. I had some experience before Black Friday. I had been working on a few side projects (in Python) for a couple of years. I augmented that by attending the App Academy, which at the time was teaching Objective C.
hangonhn 13y ago
"The night after we got back, I took that 1k to the local casino and played in the highest cash game I could buy into. It was high risk but I didn't have time to grind it out at lower stakes. Luckily I went on an amazing heater, ran the 1k up to 10k and that was enough to last us until Poker Stars unfroze my account." That's a fantastic story my friend. It took some luck but also a lot of guts and self confidence to do that. Glad you managed it.

baddox 13y ago

It also reminds me of when governments freeze the bank accounts of certain people for various reasons.