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The key take away from this article is not to build your app in J2ME but to recognize how big the world is outside of America. American focused startups face lo

The key take away from this article is not to build your app in J2ME but to recognize how big the world is outside of America. American focused startups face lots of competition in a relatively small market.

nicpottier 13y ago
Ya.. that is definitely the takeaway. If you address all platforms, your market is suddenly both under served and absolutely huge.
- SunboX 13y ago
  That's the key of Firefox OS. Use well known technology and try to go into these markets.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    My problem with Firefox OS is that they don't add any value over what is already possible in modern mobile OS. All of them have a web browser of some sort.
    - SunboX 13y ago
      It's not about what is possible todo, it's about replacing feature phones in developing markets. They can't effort "cheap" androids, neither iphones. And if they get the money for an "cheap" android they don't have money for the development equipment.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        My old cheap feature phone had a good enough browser already.
        testernew 13y ago
        Ok
        JetSpiegel 13y ago
        I think so, but having a little more RAM can't hurt. I can't even load up 2 HN pages at the same time.
        pjmlp 13y ago
        Do you also read both at the same time?
        JetSpiegel 13y ago
        No, it's just convenience. :) Caching 2 pages in RAM also means instant undo when I open the story link.
      - SunboX 13y ago
        "Firefox OS - Answering global challenges" slides by Christian Heilmann: http://www.slideshare.net/cheilmann/developerweek http://www.slideshare.net/cheilmann/developerweek
        waps 13y ago
        I think this is a pipe dream. Cheapest android cellphone is only $35 [1]. That is only possible because they're leftover stock of a phone that was produced using leftover stock of an ex-android phone chipset. [1] http://dx.com/s/android%2bphone?PriceSort=up&category=511 http://dx.com/s/android%2bphone?PriceSort=up&category=511
      - testernew 13y ago
        Yes
    - diydsp 13y ago
      Thinking about what is technically possible has been very limiting for me. The value proposition of Firefox OS is that apps will run on all phones, unlike the current iOS vs. Java schism. Of course it is likely to have other issues, but don't limit yourself to saying what is possible... think about the cost to actually deploy that possibility.
      - tim333 13y ago
        I'm not sure I really see that. Firefox os apps are basically html5/javascript and you can run that on Android and iOS at the moment using phonegap and the like. The advantage of a Firefox phone over a cheap Android seems a bit marginal although it is proper open source which may matter to some people.
- netcan 13y ago
  One such "platform" is made up of the 80% of android phones that are cheap and basic with small data plans and limited access to slow wifi. The anecdotes from the 80s & 90s when annual PC sales for any given year were a substantial portion of the overall PCs in use at the time are interesting. The realization that software could be written for the newest machine and it would run everywhere soon enough is not directly applicable to the smartphone market. I think that out of collective habit, many apps assume that building for this year's flagship models is the best course. It may be, but it effectively means your market is much smaller, especially for free, network effect apps. These apps and their ecosystems rise and fall fast. Tablets & smartphones are spreading downmarket with devices being sold today @ 10% of the first androids. A $50 phone won't run everything, but it will run some things - useful things.
  - josephlord 13y ago
    Are these going to be Google Android or AOSP based? Is there a clear baseline to target and distribution strategy to cover this mass of devices?
  - alien3d 13y ago
    i m using lenovo a 269i android 2.3.6 .it does do lot of thing for 50 phone.i no need high end graphic card.it just a phone which i can call. whatsapp and gps.enough for me.
  - corresation 13y ago
    the 80% of android phones that are cheap and basic with small data plans and limited access to slow wifi Ignoring the fictional statistics, the cheap devices (e.g. Xiaomi) in countries like China still tend to be surprisingly powerful, and you hardly need to design down to them. And it's a rare app, beyond something like video conferencing, that puts any real burden on connectivity.
    - stefan_kendall 13y ago
      You absolutely need to "design down" if you want to support all of android. Go build an app with a reasonable number of users and you'll learn this the hard way.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Market isn't warm bodies, its money. Cash. Margins. How much is this app making off of each guy in India/Africa/China? I'm guessing, very little. So be very, very careful about trying to 'serve' that demographic.
comrade1 13y ago
I'm an American that lives and works in Europe for the last 5 years or so. I'm a programmer, founded a couple of start-ups, etc. There's a few things that I've learned: 1) Europeans respect and value American experience and perspectives in business. 2) American companies do not value overseas experience. 3) California is very isolated. Here in Europe we have a lot of interaction with consultants/etc from the East Coast of the u.s., but California feels very far away and isolated. 4) The VC industry is still pretty primitive here, but the start-up talent is immense. Especially Berlin and Switzerland.
higherpurpose 13y ago
And Android has like 80 percent market share outside of US. So maybe it's time for developers here and elsewhere to forget about the "Macs/iPhones 'everywhere', therefore let's build for them first" Silicon Valley culture, and start developing for Android first? With J2ME phones rapidly declining as they are being replaced by smartphones (even $50 Android smartphones going into this year), and the vast majority of those smartphones being Android (even Microsoft is considering replacing Nokia Asha's OS with Android, therefore killing another a huge chunk of the J2ME market), Android's platform is basically the "new J2ME". So to follow the author's own advice, you should build an Android app.
- gress 13y ago
  This is terrible advice. The choice of platform should be made based on the value proposition. In the case of whatsapp, the business is based on undercutting the price-gouging of SMS with a superior alternative for $1 per year. This makes it affordable and appealing to everyone, including (especially) J2ME and Android users in the developing word. If your app fits this profile, definitely go Android first. But.. if your app is more appealing to people with discretionary income, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you don't start with iOS because that's where the users with money are.
jrockway 13y ago
The US is a pretty big market. 320,000,000 people, most with at least some disposable income. There are also plenty of advertisers that want to market their products to Americans, which means you can choose between ad-sponsored or for-pay business models.
- Kurtz79 13y ago
  I think the attraction of the US market is that is big AND homogeneous: the EU in its entirety for example has more people and comparable wealth, but it's made up of dozens of countries, each with its own language and regulatory laws, which complicate the development of any app/service.
  - jotm 13y ago
    The laws are actually quite uniform, it's actually easy to release an app in multiple languages using one company in the UK, for example. The hard part is getting partners or marketers everywhere, making sure they understand what you're trying to accomplish, making sure they don't rip you off and start their own clone with all your users and somehow providing support for all those people speaking different languages. And of course, then there's the payments - receiving/sending payments is very hard, every country has their own preferred method that does not integrate with others at all.
    - jrockway 13y ago
      I believe he means homogeneous as in "speak the same language, share a similar culture". If you tell a French person he's exactly the same as a German person, he will probably disagree.
- rmc 13y ago
  Yes it's big. But (a) there are more than ten times that outside the USA and (b) less competition.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  This. India is a billion people and maybe 10-20% have internet access. Of those 10-20%, the vast majority do NOT have $20k to spend ($20k is the average consumption level of the poorest Americans). China and the Philippines are certainly richer, but not drastically so. Rough numbers: USA is a $16T economy, most of which is on the internet. China is an $8T economy, most of which is not. India is $1.8T. There is certainly opportunity here, particularly in the long term (probably why Facebook bought them), which is why I'm in India introducing people to BayesianWitch. But be realistic about the market.

nicpottier 13y ago

Ya.. that is definitely the takeaway. If you address all platforms, your market is suddenly both under served and absolutely huge.

SunboX 13y ago
That's the key of Firefox OS. Use well known technology and try to go into these markets.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  My problem with Firefox OS is that they don't add any value over what is already possible in modern mobile OS. All of them have a web browser of some sort.
  - SunboX 13y ago
    It's not about what is possible todo, it's about replacing feature phones in developing markets. They can't effort "cheap" androids, neither iphones. And if they get the money for an "cheap" android they don't have money for the development equipment.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      My old cheap feature phone had a good enough browser already.
      - testernew 13y ago
        Ok
      - JetSpiegel 13y ago
        I think so, but having a little more RAM can't hurt. I can't even load up 2 HN pages at the same time.
        pjmlp 13y ago
        Do you also read both at the same time?
        JetSpiegel 13y ago
        No, it's just convenience. :) Caching 2 pages in RAM also means instant undo when I open the story link.
    - SunboX 13y ago
      "Firefox OS - Answering global challenges" slides by Christian Heilmann: http://www.slideshare.net/cheilmann/developerweek http://www.slideshare.net/cheilmann/developerweek
      - waps 13y ago
        I think this is a pipe dream. Cheapest android cellphone is only $35 [1]. That is only possible because they're leftover stock of a phone that was produced using leftover stock of an ex-android phone chipset. [1] http://dx.com/s/android%2bphone?PriceSort=up&category=511 http://dx.com/s/android%2bphone?PriceSort=up&category=511
    - testernew 13y ago
      Yes
  - diydsp 13y ago
    Thinking about what is technically possible has been very limiting for me. The value proposition of Firefox OS is that apps will run on all phones, unlike the current iOS vs. Java schism. Of course it is likely to have other issues, but don't limit yourself to saying what is possible... think about the cost to actually deploy that possibility.
    - tim333 13y ago
      I'm not sure I really see that. Firefox os apps are basically html5/javascript and you can run that on Android and iOS at the moment using phonegap and the like. The advantage of a Firefox phone over a cheap Android seems a bit marginal although it is proper open source which may matter to some people.
netcan 13y ago
One such "platform" is made up of the 80% of android phones that are cheap and basic with small data plans and limited access to slow wifi. The anecdotes from the 80s & 90s when annual PC sales for any given year were a substantial portion of the overall PCs in use at the time are interesting. The realization that software could be written for the newest machine and it would run everywhere soon enough is not directly applicable to the smartphone market. I think that out of collective habit, many apps assume that building for this year's flagship models is the best course. It may be, but it effectively means your market is much smaller, especially for free, network effect apps. These apps and their ecosystems rise and fall fast. Tablets & smartphones are spreading downmarket with devices being sold today @ 10% of the first androids. A $50 phone won't run everything, but it will run some things - useful things.
- josephlord 13y ago
  Are these going to be Google Android or AOSP based? Is there a clear baseline to target and distribution strategy to cover this mass of devices?
- alien3d 13y ago
  i m using lenovo a 269i android 2.3.6 .it does do lot of thing for 50 phone.i no need high end graphic card.it just a phone which i can call. whatsapp and gps.enough for me.
- corresation 13y ago
  the 80% of android phones that are cheap and basic with small data plans and limited access to slow wifi Ignoring the fictional statistics, the cheap devices (e.g. Xiaomi) in countries like China still tend to be surprisingly powerful, and you hardly need to design down to them. And it's a rare app, beyond something like video conferencing, that puts any real burden on connectivity.
  - stefan_kendall 13y ago
    You absolutely need to "design down" if you want to support all of android. Go build an app with a reasonable number of users and you'll learn this the hard way.
JoeAltmaier 13y ago
Market isn't warm bodies, its money. Cash. Margins. How much is this app making off of each guy in India/Africa/China? I'm guessing, very little. So be very, very careful about trying to 'serve' that demographic.

comrade1 13y ago

I'm an American that lives and works in Europe for the last 5 years or so. I'm a programmer, founded a couple of start-ups, etc. There's a few things that I've learned: 1) Europeans respect and value American experience and perspectives in business. 2) American companies do not value overseas experience. 3) California is very isolated. Here in Europe we have a lot of interaction with consultants/etc from the East Coast of the u.s., but California feels very far away and isolated. 4) The VC industry is still pretty primitive here, but the start-up talent is immense. Especially Berlin and Switzerland.

higherpurpose 13y ago

And Android has like 80 percent market share outside of US. So maybe it's time for developers here and elsewhere to forget about the "Macs/iPhones 'everywhere', therefore let's build for them first" Silicon Valley culture, and start developing for Android first? With J2ME phones rapidly declining as they are being replaced by smartphones (even $50 Android smartphones going into this year), and the vast majority of those smartphones being Android (even Microsoft is considering replacing Nokia Asha's OS with Android, therefore killing another a huge chunk of the J2ME market), Android's platform is basically the "new J2ME". So to follow the author's own advice, you should build an Android app.

gress 13y ago
This is terrible advice. The choice of platform should be made based on the value proposition. In the case of whatsapp, the business is based on undercutting the price-gouging of SMS with a superior alternative for $1 per year. This makes it affordable and appealing to everyone, including (especially) J2ME and Android users in the developing word. If your app fits this profile, definitely go Android first. But.. if your app is more appealing to people with discretionary income, you are shooting yourself in the foot if you don't start with iOS because that's where the users with money are.

jrockway 13y ago

The US is a pretty big market. 320,000,000 people, most with at least some disposable income. There are also plenty of advertisers that want to market their products to Americans, which means you can choose between ad-sponsored or for-pay business models.

Kurtz79 13y ago
I think the attraction of the US market is that is big AND homogeneous: the EU in its entirety for example has more people and comparable wealth, but it's made up of dozens of countries, each with its own language and regulatory laws, which complicate the development of any app/service.
- jotm 13y ago
  The laws are actually quite uniform, it's actually easy to release an app in multiple languages using one company in the UK, for example. The hard part is getting partners or marketers everywhere, making sure they understand what you're trying to accomplish, making sure they don't rip you off and start their own clone with all your users and somehow providing support for all those people speaking different languages. And of course, then there's the payments - receiving/sending payments is very hard, every country has their own preferred method that does not integrate with others at all.
  - jrockway 13y ago
    I believe he means homogeneous as in "speak the same language, share a similar culture". If you tell a French person he's exactly the same as a German person, he will probably disagree.
rmc 13y ago
Yes it's big. But (a) there are more than ten times that outside the USA and (b) less competition.
yummyfajitas 13y ago
This. India is a billion people and maybe 10-20% have internet access. Of those 10-20%, the vast majority do NOT have $20k to spend ($20k is the average consumption level of the poorest Americans). China and the Philippines are certainly richer, but not drastically so. Rough numbers: USA is a $16T economy, most of which is on the internet. China is an $8T economy, most of which is not. India is $1.8T. There is certainly opportunity here, particularly in the long term (probably why Facebook bought them), which is why I'm in India introducing people to BayesianWitch. But be realistic about the market.