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Questions People Ask When I Tell Them I Own an Airplane
- lutusp 13y agoIt's important to say that the general aviation population has gotten much smaller over the last few decades. It was a lot more popular 25 years ago when I flew much more than I do now. A number of aircraft manufacturers have stopped building small general-aviation planes for a number of reasons including liability and a reduction in public interest. I started flying about 1980. By 1992, 12 years later, about half the pilots I knew in 1980 (instructors as well as students) had been killed in flying accidents. That's another reason for the decline in activity.
- ekianjo 13y ago> about half the pilots I knew in 1980 (instructors as well as students) had been killed in flying accidents Wow, that's certainly dissuasive. By the way, are there some kind of autopilots on modern amateur planes? Or is that even possible to integrate any ?
- lutusp 13y ago> By the way, are there some kind of autopilots on modern amateur planes? By "amateur planes" do you mean ultralights or experimental homebuilts? The answer depends on which -- an ultralight could hardly tolerate the extra weight that a decent autopilot would require. And most experimental homebuilt owners probably want the pleasure of actually flying their planes. Autopilots are more attractive to people who fly long distances and not for pleasure. I had a Mooney 201 years ago that I would fly on business, and the flights tended to be long and a bit boring, so I had an autopilot installed. Picture of me putting my bicycle in the backseat of my Mooney: http://i.imgur.com/R5qVo.jpg http://i.imgur.com/R5qVo.jpg
- mistercow 13y ago>an ultralight could hardly tolerate the extra weight that a decent autopilot would require Where does most of the weight come from in an autopilot?
- jrockway 13y agoEquipment to move the control surfaces automatically, I'm guessing. (I think the most common setup is to have a motor move the trim controls, and I'm not sure ultralights even have trim.)
- ars 13y agoI would assume the actuators to actually control the plane. I doubt ultralights are fly by wire.
- mistercow 13y agoOh, that makes sense, although I guess I'm a bit surprised that FBW isn't common with ultralights, given its advantages.
- TylerE 13y agoI'm not aware of of any aircraft costing less than the 8 figures equipped with FBW. It's a LOT of added complexity/cost for very little gain in anything that isn't either dynamically unstable (e.g. modern military aircraft) or so large that the flight controls can't be comfortably operated by hand, and is rare even in the bizjet and smaller airliner market. On all small aircraft (and some larger older ones, DC-3s for instance), muscle is the only thing that moves the control surfaces. They're very well designed and counterweighted so that the required effort is quite minimal.
- jcoby 13y agoIn the US an ultralight has to be under 254 pounds and does not require any training or licensing to fly. In most other countries an ultralight is more like the sport class in the US. At 254 pounds you want light and simple. FBW requires actuators. And controllers. And sensors. And power. And then you have to double up everything for redundancy. You would easily eat up 50 lbs or more making a reliable FBW system and it would cost 3-4x what the entire aircraft cost. Even with normal light aircraft a FBW system is both unneeded and overly complex. Cables and pulleys are extremely reliable. They are inspected every year (along with the engine and various other pieces of the aircraft).
- jeiting 13y agoMy airplane has an autopilot which is connected to my GPS giving hands off enroute flying. Anything complicated, takeoffs, landings, etc is still done by hand. Really helps combat fatigue on my long trips.
- tlrobinson 13y agoFrom the makers of X-Plane: http://www.x-plane.com/x-world/hardware/seeker-avionics/ http://www.x-plane.com/x-world/hardware/seeker-avionics/ (I don't fly and know nothing about this but it sounds pretty cool)
- jrockway 13y agoYes, there are autopilots. They vary in complexity from just keeping the wings level, to altitude, vertical speed, and heading holds, to fully-programmable routes.
- bulte-rs 13y agoI flew a Seneca V (twin engine, semi 'amateur' plane) during pilot training which was equiped with an autopilot. Really helps when flying in congested airspace or while performing 'complex' arrivals.
- jeiting 13y agoYou must be fantastically unlucky, by my research (I'm afraid I've lost the citation) the number of pilots who die in flying accidents is about 1/50. How many pilots did you know?
- lutusp 13y agoA reasonable number, but many of them were stunt pilots -- or thought they were stunt pilots. I didn't mean to create a false impression. Also remember I mentioned that was a 12-year period.
- jeiting 13y agoAh, the subset of stunt pilots will run a MUCH higher risk profile. That would explain a lot.
- WildUtah 13y agobut many of them were stunt pilots Lincoln Beachey thought it was a dream to go up to heaven in a flying machine The machine broke down and down he fell thought he'd go to heaven but he went to Lincoln Beachey thought it was a dream ... RIP Lincoln Beachey, drowned in SF Bay 1915 [0] http://www.radiolab.org/story/159748-loop-loop/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/159748-loop-loop/
- pubman 13y agoThis would have been key information in your original statement for sure.
- The_Fox 13y agoThat reminds me of something I heard once- "there are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots."
- miahi 13y agoAnd then, there's Jurgis Kairys[1] doing things like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWaSgofuD6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWaSgofuD6g at 60. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurgis_Kairys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurgis_Kairys
- lisper 13y agoWow, you have had some extraordinarily bad luck. Not a single one of my flying acquaintances has ever been in an accident, and I've been flying since 1996. (I do have one non-pilot friend who was killed in a GA accident.)
- lutusp 13y ago> Wow, you have had some extraordinarily bad luck. Yes -- all except the fact that I gave up the activity before getting killed myself. :)
- Stratoscope 13y agoThis was my favorite airplane from my old flying club: http://www.pbase.com/geary/image/120224799 http://www.pbase.com/geary/image/120224799 That's my mom and me when I took her flying on September 3, 1977. I have the logbook right here that I carried on that flight. Sadly, this plane was involved in a midair in 1982, and the instructor and student pilot died: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20020917X03685&key=2 http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20020917X... It's weird, if you sell a car and then it gets in a wreck and someone dies, you don't think about it much - or do you? I guess you're not likely to find out it happened. But it really shook me up that two people came to a tragic end in the same plane I used to fly. R.I.P.
- emhart 13y agoThat is an amazing photo :) Sorry to hear about the fate of the plane, but thanks for sharing the memory.
- HeyLaughingBoy 13y agoAirplanes are also more instantly recognizable than cars due to their tail numbers. I remember the day I turned on the news and saw the airplane I had first soloed in years before, upside down in a field. Happily both instructor and student walked away.
- Udo 13y ago> about half the pilots I knew in 1980 (instructors as well as students) had been killed in flying accidents. That's extreme. Is there any pattern? Where are you located?
- lutusp 13y ago> That's extreme. Yes, it is extreme, not the average. I should have added that the pilots I knew were largely instructors, stunt pilots and skydivers (and pilots who flew skydivers to altitude). So not a typical population.
- MattBearman 13y agoWow, I knew flying light aircrafts was dangerous, but this really surprised me. And people tell me I'm taking risks riding a motorcycle.
- sokoloff 13y agoIf you factor in all risks (the "as experienced" rate), GA flight is about as dangerous per mile as riding motorcycles. I firmly believe that 2/3rds of the fatality risk in GA is pilot-controlled and readily avoidable: weather, fuel exhaustion and "ostentatious display" (buzzing, etc) are relatively easy to avoid with nothing more than basic knowledge and firm discipline. On a motorcycle, many risks are rider-controlled but a lot of your safety is in the hands of people near you that you'll never meet. Less so in aviation, IMO.
- pubman 13y ago^ What he said
- nathanstitt 13y agoIFR rated pilot here that's been flying for ~ 10 years. I agree with you 100% on the risks being largely under the pilots control. However I also believe that there's something about aviation that attracts the type of people who are uniquely unsuited for it. Daredevils, non-detail minded, and just plain incompetent. When you read the NTSB reports and such it's just not pretty. Pilot after pilot runs out of fuel or manages to run a perfectly good airplane into the ground / side of a mountain because they weren't observant. I'm not sure what the solution is though. We've had 30 years of the FAA and all the associations preaching safety to no effect. More regulation won't help either since all the main accident factors are already against some regulation or another.
- wpietri 13y agoDoing user studies and paying attention to my own behavior, I grow more and more aware how rare consistent, no-error performance of tasks is. Stupid mistakes now seem more the human norm than the exception. What's especially sinister to me is how long it took me to really get that. And how much my self-perceived skill is more about my ability to recover from error than my ability to avoid error in the first place. Especially when it's over time periods long enough for fear to wear off. I'd never take up flying, because I know my attention would wander during those long periods of apparent calm but actual risk. Regarding why aviation attracts the wrong sort of people, if you haven't read about the Dunning-Kruger effect, I think it'll ring some bells for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
- bergie 13y agoFuel is also a lot more expensive now. And that makes up quite a significant chunk of the flying costs. On a quick look, the price of an hour of flying has gone up nearly 50% in the last ten years in the aviation club I used to belong to.
- sokoloff 13y agoThat's what 4.1% annual inflation compounded over 10 years will do. In real dollar terms, that price is very close to what it was 10 years ago.
- bergie 13y agoEuro area inflation has been way lower than that, it seems. Including negative % on some years
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- scott_karana 13y agoHave fuel costs and taxes also done the same, though? Fuel will make the majority of operating costs if you fly with any frequency, I suspect.
- mercutio2 13y agoWhere do you get 4.1% inflation from? CPI for the USD hasn't gone up by that much in a single year for the last decade, annualized inflation is closer to 2.5% over that period.
- sokoloff 13y ago4.1% is the 10th root of 150% minus 1. "OMG, this cost went up 50% over ten years!" sounds like a dire situation, when in fact it's a tiny margin over whatever inflation measure you prefer. If you take 2.5% as the annualized inflation, that's 28% over that 10 year period, meaning the other 17% increase is 1.6% "real dollar increase" per year. Hardly frightening, IMO.
- jcoby 13y agoThe private pilot is a dying breed. Skyrocketing costs make it all but impossible for most people to get into. Even getting your private pilot's license often costs $8k-$10k. And then you are looking at $150/hr to fly a 20-30 year old C172. These skyrocketing costs make it so the fleet ages and becomes less reliable. So people get out. Or they die because they can't fly enough to get experience or the aircraft has a problem because it isn't flown enough. And costs rise further because there is no market. It's a downward spiral. And it seems that the FAA is completely happy with the situation. I've been out on beautiful days (low 80s, calm, 10 mi vis) and the CTAF is all but dead. Even 5 years ago there would have been 2-3 in the pattern and I would have heard a steady stream of traffic around the other 5 airports in the same frequency.
- smackfu 13y agoMost people I know who've done it are older and need a hobby and have spare money when their kids are gone and mortgage is paid off.
- jcoby 13y agoTrue. Or they bought the plane 20+ years ago and still own it. When I go to EAA meetings I'm the youngest by 15-20 years and I'm in my 30s. I don't think I've ever seen a privately owned certified plane that was newer than 25 years old. It's all around a bad situation for general aviation.
- nathanstitt 13y agoSame here. I'm in my late 30s and am by far the youngest at any pilot gathering I attend. I really don't know where the airlines are going to get the next generation of pilots from. Of course with the horrible pay and hours, I can't blame anyone from not choosing that career path.
- jcoby 13y agoI've heard that starting pay for ATP or cargo is somewhere in the low $20s and schooling is in the mid $100s. Is there any truth to that?
- malandrew 13y agoWhoa! really? I never imagined that deaths were that frequent. What were most of the causes of the accidents? Operator error? Poor conditions? Equipment failure? Has the rate of people dying off fallen as the equipment (planes and instruments) has improved? I had always assumed the decline has more to do with the economics of the sport and the amount of upfront investment necessary to get to the point where you can fly on your own.
- colechristensen 13y agoIt is very rare that an aircraft falls out of the sky for any reason other than human stupidity. For decades, aircraft engineering has been well understood: the conditions for safe flight are known, staying in them is straightforward, and only very rarely does following the rules end badly. New technology has very little to do with this. The thing is that it's easy to make stupid mistakes operating and maintaining an aircraft, and unlike many other areas of modern life, there aren't training wheels to make it idiot proof.
- aaronsnoswell 13y agoIn the 1950s, test pilots were dying approximately once per week [1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_pilot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_pilot
- jpatokal 13y agoThere's a world of difference between the flying done by a test pilot, who's intentionally pushing the plane to its limits, and your average recreational pilot.
- noname123 13y agoYou forgot the LAQ: "Can someone who only 'trained' on a Flight Simulator be able to take-off and land in a real plane?'
- lisper 13y agoThe answer is yes. Someone actually did this experiment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJT_CACIZqs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJT_CACIZqs But it's pretty challenging. Today's simulators are pretty good, but there's something about having your life actually on the line that can't be captured by a sim.
- jeiting 13y agoI had a ton of sim experience when I jumped in a trainer for the first time. It helped a ton with the systems and comms but pretty much nothing for my landing and takeoff ability.
- lutusp 13y ago> It helped a ton with the systems and comms but pretty much nothing for my landing and takeoff ability. Yes, a common experience. Landing and taking off involve some subtle things that most simulators don't capture, like the fact that in a small propeller-drive plane, at slow speed, the propeller torque twists the body of the airplane, so you have to apply some counter-rudder to straighten out the fuselage and maximize climbing efficiency. And landing has risks that simulators certainly don't capture, like the all-too-common stall-spin on final approach, which turns out to represent a high percentage of all GA accidents. Most simulators won't even imitate this common problem -- in most simulators you can't force the plane into a spin, either at altitude or while landing. That by itself might make a student overconfident about how much he's learned. In reality, a student or new pilot turns too slow on final, realizes he's not lined up, so he banks too steeply and applies some aggressive rudder, which causes the inboard wing to stall, then unless the pilot knows exactly what to do and does it instantly, the plane will stall-spin, do a 1/4 turn and hit the ground before an inexperienced pilot can react. A very common accident scenario.
- mmanfrin 13y ago13 MPG is surprisingly good, I always thought it was much, much less.
- jeiting 13y agoYeah, its like an SUV but twice as fast.
- lpolovets 13y agoPerhaps 3-5x as fast in terms of time because you don't have to stop at red lights and you can take the "as the crow flies" path instead of zig-zagging. Pretty sweet deal for $30k!
- amagumori 13y agoavgas is more expensive doe
- mistercow 13y agoYeah, where I am, it's about 5/3 as expensive. The upper bound improvement factor you can get over driving due to flying in a straight line is 2/sqrt(2), so your best case cost-equivalent efficiency is about 11 mpg.
- mikeash 13y agoThe upper bound is infinite if you fly a route with no road equivalent, for example to an island. Even sticking to a single landmass, you can get arbitrarily high, as roads can be extremely indirect in some cases.
- mahyarm 13y agoThis is why I'm excited about electric airplanes and driverless cars. A GA electric airplane has about 1/10th the energy cost of an avgas one. The cost of avgas is what discourages me from owning an airplane.
- DanielleMolloy 13y agoThere are a couple of websites for airplane pooling around: http://www.skypool.com/ http://www.skypool.com/ Like ridesharing / carpooling, just with airplanes. They are clearly not as successful as the car variant, but when flight destinations / times match they might offer a little adventure on the route (and one could avoid some of the traffic jams around the Bay Area).
- jeiting 13y agoThere are a lot of legal land mines with operations like this. The FAA separates flight operations along a couple of subtle lines that make the difference between a commercial and private operation. As soon as a private pilot says to the general public "I am flying from here to there on this day and it will cost this much to come." you are now "holding out" as the FAA puts it. This requires you to be a commercial pilot flying under part 135 of the FARs as opposed to the more relaxed part 91 (general aviation).
- jrockway 13y ago> This requires you to be a commercial pilot flying under part 135 of the FARs as opposed to the more relaxed part 91 (general aviation). This is something I plan to do if/when I burn out on programming. Though I guess there is always the saying: "how do you become a millionaire?" "become a billionaire and start an airline."
- lutorm 13y agoIs that true even if the passengers don't pay more than their fair share of the operating costs? One instance I can think of are the EAA "young eagle" flights where kids can come to the airport and get a flight with a pilot. Those are definitely advertised, but since they aren't done for profit, my impression was that they are clearly part 91. (I don't know if those flights are completely free, though.) EDIT: nm, saw the post above about "common purpose" rule.
- rodgerd 13y agoGetting into a car which may or may not be well-maintained[1] with a driver whose competence I know nothing about is disturbing enough. Getting into a plane (where the failure mode on shoddy maintenance is falling out of the sky) with an unknown pilot seems like a very courageous move. In the Yes, Prime Minister sense. [1] I once had a boss that picked up $200 cars. He asked me to move it out of the company car park for him once, warning that the brakes didn't work and I'd need to use the handbrake to stop.
- apunic 13y agoDon't get me wrong but I do not get what's so exciting about flying yourself or owning a plane. Flying is for getting from point A to B. Flying just for fun missing any purpose might be fun the first couple of times but then it's like driving a bus from A to A.
- jeiting 13y agoSex is for making children. I don't get why anyone would enjoy it more than once. Because you are flying in the air. In a machine. Above the ground. Like a god.
- bobowzki 13y agoIn the same way as hacking is ONLY about making a product? You can never do it out of general interest, just to learn more about something?
- lutusp 13y ago> Flying is for getting from point A to B. Flying just for fun missing any purpose might be fun the first couple of times but then it's like driving a bus from A to A. On the contrary. For years I owned a Piper Super Cub, an old-fashioned cloth-wing airplane, and I flew it everywhere just for fun. I would fly it out into the desert and land in a dry lake bed or salt flat, just to be somewhere totally wild and unexplored. I also stunt-flew it at air shows, doing all kinds of aerobatics and fun stuff. That was the most fun I had as a pilot, and flying for business couldn't compare.
- 13y ago
- computerslol 13y agoIs there a site where you can find other people that want to fly from somewhere specific too somewhere specific to share fuel costs with? I'd love to go up in a private plane for a few hours if it only cost me $200 or less.
- cones688 13y agohttp://jetsuite.com/suitedeal http://jetsuite.com/suitedeal They hire out the return legs for trips which are empty edit: The prices quoted are for the whole plane, all 4 seats so usually about 150$ each
- mariuolo 13y agoHow much red tape is there if one wants to cross an international border?
- bergie 13y agoGenerally, not much. You need to file a flight plan, which is essentially just telling the ATC where you're going, and where you're coming from. The flight plan is also useful in case you get into trouble, since it contains the identifying information for your plane, the number of people on board, and for instance the safety equipment on board. So if you crash, the search-and-rescue people know what to expect. Depending on the system the place you're flying to uses, filing the plan might be filling a web form. At least in Finland you could also do that via a phone call or with radio. If there are customs and passport formalities between the countries you travel to, you will need to taxi your plane to a 'customs control' parking lot on the airport so that the customs people can check it. On some small airports this may require alerting them ahead of time so that they'll actually be there. You probably also have to have a radio and a transponder on the airplane. Between some countries, like the EU/Schengen area, flying between countries is pretty much the same as flying inside a country. So the requirements mostly depend on airspace restrictions in the area you fly. Between other countries things may vary. For example, back then I was told that it is quite impossible to fly from Finland to Russia since there was essentially no GA in Russia. (disclaimer: it has been nearly 10 years since I flew last time, so some of this may be incorrect or outdated)
- chiph 13y ago> since there was essentially no GA in Russia. Other than Mathias Rust? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust
- sokoloff 13y agoI've done it US-Canada, and entering Canada was an absolute pleasure and smooth experience; coming back into the US has become much more hassle (and I'm a US citizen, flying an N-reg [US] airplane). That was before 9/11 and Homeland Security. Now, entering the US is much more aggravating and "tense". It's not so much that there's lots of red tape, but that the entire experience I perceive as unfriendly and waiting to spring a $5000 fine of you for missing some timing deadline by a few minutes or for having the paperwork innocently imperfectly filled out. There's also a sense of discoordination. You have to file electronically, and then call the customs office on the phone, giving them a small window for your arrival. You used to just be able to have ATC advise customs of your ETA. It's to the point where when I need to go to Windsor, Canada, I will often overfly the Windsor airport, cross back into the US, land at Detroit (either Metro or City airport) and rent a car to drive back into Canada. If I just overfly Canada but takeoff and land in the US, it's still a domestic flight and I avoid all the hassle. I'm sure if I did it more often that it would become routine and seem less arcane and fraught with peril, but I only have occassion to do it a couple times per year, max, and Detroit is really close to Windsor anyway, so it'll stay a mystery for me until I go island hopping the Carribean. That's where a rental car from San Juan, PR or Miami doesn't work as a substitute for a border-crossing.
- Udo 13y agoI would love an app that matches passengers to GA flights going between airfields, essentially a ride-sharing option for small aircraft. Pilots could offload a bit of the fuel cost and passengers could go between short range destinations very fast if they're lucky.
- niekmaas 13y agoA private pilot license (PPL) does not allow for commercial flying (charging passengers). To charge passengers to pilot requires a commercial pilot license.
- sokoloff 13y agoA PPL does allow for "cost sharing" for flights under Part 91. It's a very grey area around ride-sharing boards, but as a pilot I wouldn't touch a ride-sharing board because of exactly what you say, that the FAA would likely look at that as a Part 135 (charter) operation, my insurance may not be valid, my certificate would be at risk, etc. all for a few hundred bucks in shared costs. No thanks. It's perfectly legal for me to fly 3 buddies down to Atlantic City and have each of us pay 25% of the direct cost for the flight. Let's say that was $100pp. Perfectly legal by FAR 61.113(c). http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.5.1.8&idno=14 http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=te... IMO, it's not OK for me to post on a ride board: "Fly to AC this weekend with me. $100 per person." It's a grey area, I admit, but I wouldn't touch it, and I would recommend against someone building a startup to do just that without qualified legal counsel first. (and if they say "it's ok!", I'm not sure they're qualified... ;) )
- cameldrv 13y agoIt's a very thorny area, and not one that I'd want to get involved in either. The FAA also has the concept of a "Common Purpose" to the flight. By my non-lawyer reading of this, it would be illegal for a private pilot to even have a casual conversation with someone, discover that they're going to the same city, and split the expenses. They have to be say, all going on the same vacation together. I believe that the intention of this is to avoid people flying with private pilots that they don't personally know and have the opportunity to evaluate their general judgment.
- JHof 13y agoI don't like all this talk of risk and death. While it's true that more accidents happen with small GA aircraft, it isn't really the dangerous activity non-fliers make it out to be. When accidents do occur, it's almost always due to some very poor decisions made on the part of the pilot - taking off over wight, bad weather/icing, shoddy maintenance, etc. I started out with GA flying and later became a flight instructor, then moved on to flying small turboprops (into some very treacherous airports), and now fly jets with an airline. I've never known anyone personally who has been killed or injured in an aircraft accident. Even flying for an airline, I'm baffled by the sense of danger some passengers feel by going up in a large jet. Here's a startup that's trying to reverse the decline of GA flying - OpenAirplane.com. They launched last year and have caught on pretty quickly. It's a universal rental checkout for GA pilots, such as the OP. Get checked out in, say, a Cessna 172 in Detroit, and you're set to rent a similar Cessna 172 in Florida. The requirement for a checkout at each operator from which one wants to rent can be a roadblock for would-be renters, and this solves the problem. The company has the backing of most major aviation insurance providers and even Cessna Aircraft Company.
- asjordan 13y ago"Never feel sorry for a man who owns a plane." -Charles Morse, "The Edge" (1997)
- fennecfoxen 13y agoCharles Lindbergh, man. They STOLE and KILLED his BABY.
- erikwo 13y agoit is interesting, I'm new to hacker news but i really didn't respect to see this article in this site! why did you all up-voted it?
- rsync 13y agoHere's a question: Tell me about single engine (what you appear to have) vs. multi engine (twin, I guess) ? Should I be thinking about redundancy in plane engines the same way I think about redundancy in ... say ... kidneys ? It seems to me that I would really, really want a twin engined plane... edit: I found this [1] but I'm not sure I buy it. I am all about simplicity in systems, but redundancy in a critical component is a different thing. Further, Perrow speaks of fortuitous surpluses (or whatever) as an unalloyed good in [2]. This seems like just the kind of surplus I'd want... [1] http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AirplaneRule http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AirplaneRule [2] Normal Accidents (run, don't walk, to buy and read it)
- krschultz 13y agoA friend of mine owns an airplane, and his brother is a pilot in the USAF. I asked him this once and his opinion was that 2 engines makes the plane more complicated and increases the chance of pilot error. He had suffered 2 or 3 engine out incidents in his single engine plane, and landed all 3 with no issue. Obviously if your plane doesn't glide very well then the redundancy of a second engine is necessary (i.e a jet), but in your typical Cessna-esqe plane, gliding is a viable option.
- benburleson 13y agoI always assumed "gliding well" is a fundamental principle of an airplane.
- blueskin_ 13y agoJust about any can glide, but not necessarily well. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider
- awongh 13y agoI never knew about the glide ratio of large jets! And this story is amazing, mostly for the simultaneous levels of stupidity and competence involved.
- jokoon 13y agostill wondering if today you can build a cheap airplane that just burns less fuel...
- lutorm 13y agoBuilding your own airplane is possible and actually quite common. There are kits for anything from one-seaters with open cockpit to pressurized turboprops. http://eaa.org/homebuilders/ http://eaa.org/homebuilders/
- jokoon 13y agoNo I meant like newer generation planes with more efficient engines, lighter, more aerodynamic, etc. I'm not sure if current airplane designs are as good as they can...
- lutorm 13y agoTrue, engine efficiency is kind of flat-lined. Turbines aren't efficient for most GA operations, but there are new diesel aviation engines coming online. Aerodynamically, I don't know about big gains. Something like a Lancair Legacy is pretty low drag. You can make lower-drag planes, but that typically comes with much higher stall/takeoff/landing speeds that make the plane harder to fly and much less safe in the event of a forced landing.
- tjmc 13y agoPersonally I'm looking forward to the next generation of electric aircraft, once battery density improves and costs come down. A Chinese company is already producing an electric ultralight and working on a small GA electric: http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/lsasport/germany-certifies-first-electric-airplane-espyder http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/lsasport/germany-certifies...
- jrs235 13y agoFor those wondering how much it costs to get your private pilot's license... You'll need to study and pass a written examine so you'll have to either purchase self-study books or take a ground school class. (This is relatively cheap, a few hundred dollars.) You need to log 40 hours of flight training time. Depending on locale, anticipate paying $100-$150 per hour for a flight instructor and $100-$150 per hour for plane rental and fuel. So that's $200-$300 an hour times 40 hours so a ballpark estimation is $8000 to $12000 MINIMUM. Depending how quickly you get to flying solo (with your instructor on the ground) and how well you do will determine if your flight instructor will sign off after the minimum 40 hours. EDIT: You'll need to pay for the examine and I forgot, you'll need to get an "FAA physical" and an okay from a physician which you'll also have to pay for (unless you can get your health insurance to pay for it as a yearly physical examine).
- retroafroman 13y agoThe FAA also created a new license class called 'Sport Pilot' about 10 years ago that only takes 20 hours of flight training, which makes it much easier and cheaper to get into flying [1]. However, this comes with limitations like only able to take one passenger, only able to fly during the day, in good weather, only in a small aircraft, etc. [1] http://www.aopa.org/Advocacy/Regulatory-,-a-,-Certification-Policy/Frequently-Asked-Questions-About-Sport-Pilot.aspx http://www.aopa.org/Advocacy/Regulatory-,-a-,-Certification-...
- lake_rogue 13y agoWhen I decided I was going to get my pilot license I planned to do so efficiently, without burning cash unnecessarily (yeah, right) -- I was prepared with my own plan for every flight... I'd heard numbers in the $8k to $10k ballpark and thought "I'll target that". It still cost me $15k (in 2012 -- airplane $11k, instructor $4k) to get my Private Pilot License -- plus another $2k in optional expenses like a good home simulator set-up, iPad software, books etc. -- some of which arguably should have made my training more efficient. While I don't know the costs of getting a Sport Pilot license, I have wondered if it would have been the better route for me. The difference between the times I fly with a VFR Private Pilot license is virtually no different than I would with a Sport Pilot license. I rarely have more than one passenger (one is limit for Sport Pilot license), and I rarely fly at night ('engine out' at night is beyond the risk I'm willing to take), I've never been above 10k feet.
- mcdougle 13y agoI've been toying with the idea of getting my pilot's license (eventually) partially for the sake of avoiding the TSA when I actually have to travel. What I'm curious about is how difficult/expensive it is to rent a plane that can fly further than stated in the article? (say, TX to CA, for instance) I imagine it wouldn't make much sense to buy a huge cross-country jet for the occasional long trips, although I am kind of surprised it's only ~$30k for a smaller one!
- lutorm 13y agoI think renting such a plane would be difficult, but there are home-built airplanes with ranges over 1000 miles. You need a big bladder to go that far, though...
- mcdougle 13y agoReally? I've heard it should be pretty easy, and that unless you're planning to fly often, renting is by far the best way to go (aside from just taking the airlines). Then again, my sources might not be all that knowledgable!
- sokoloff 13y agoRenting is tough to use airplanes to take purposeful trips. Flight schools (the overwhelming source of rental airplanes) don't want you taking their plane for 9 days (two weekends and the week in-between) and flying it 3-hours each way, or 6 total hours of rental for 9 days where they can't rent it to anyone else. The typical minimum is 3 hours per day away from base. Before I bought my twin-engine airplane, I wanted to have 50 hours of multi-engine time (to make insurance more affordable), and I rented a flight school twin to build that time, including some trips. Because it was a twin (and therefore not in as high-demand), I was able to negotiate a 2-hour daily minimum, but that meant for long trips like Thanksgiving and Christmas, I had a lot of "extra hours" that I was going to have to pay for anyway, so I'd take side trips to fly off those hours (and to go visit used airplanes that I was considering purchasing). It is also virtually impossible to decide "Hey, the weather looks good this weekend; I'd like to rent a plane all weekend and go to XYZ." The plane will be booked at some point during that weekend. If you want to use an (non-airline, non-owned) airplane for travel, you want to join a partnership or a small club, not rent from flight schools. (This will be vastly cheaper than sole ownership, as you could imagine.)
- nathanstitt 13y agoHey, I own your plane's sister (N8550W). I'm surprised you didn't mention "Can you fly at night?" That's one I always get.
- scott_karana 13y agoAnd what's the answer? :)
- ErsatzVerkehr 13y agoThe answer is, "Yup."
- nathanstitt 13y agoOpps, sorry.. guess it would have been good to actually answer the question. Any private pilot can fly at night. There is a newer class of license called sport pilot that does impose restrictions on night flight (and quite a few other restrictions), but just about all pilots can fly at night. I'm really confused by why people think it would not be ok to fly at night though. Just about everyone I've told that I'm a pilot asks about it though, so it's a big misconception somewhere. I always follow up with "Why do you think it wouldn't be ok?", but no-one's really been able to articulate why they thought that.
- lutorm 13y agoBecause it's kind of like flying on instruments, which you need an instrument rating for? Because you are supposed to fly by visual reference to the horizon, which you can't see at night? I find it a bit weird myself.
- sfeng 13y agoFlying at night without an instrument rating in some areas is pretty sketchy to be fair. More than one person has died by losing track of where the ground is and where it isn't. In much of Europe you actually do need an instrument rating to fly at night.
- smackfu 13y agoA bit more info on the SFO question: http://www.quora.com/How-difficult-or-unusual-would-it-be-to-land-a-Cessna-172-at-SFO http://www.quora.com/How-difficult-or-unusual-would-it-be-to...
- taivare 13y agoThe first time I flew in a plane, I never Landed..because I parachuted out, using the 'old 18'ft Army round parachute'pulled both toggles down the whole way 5+min descent...great fun!
- lloeki 13y ago> I don't need to file a flight plan, I just go Always (ALWAYS) file† a flight plan, and stick to it. If (when) something happens this will save you. Countless experienced pilots went on their own, had a trivial issue, landed at various vertical velocities and died because they were known to be missing but no clue where to be searched for. Also a proper flight plan includes timestamps, because it is not just a matter of position in space. Don't assume people will know, make sure of it. BTW this is not just valid for airplanes but for any remote adventure you're undertaking, even on foot. A bruised ankle can mean death in remote areas. † although preferable, it might not be to an official/local authority but to whoever cares enough for you to be trusted with your life.
- HeyLaughingBoy 13y agoThe most startling thing about this to me was how much costs have gone up. In 1990-91 I was working on my Private Pilot's license. I lost interest around 38 hours or so and never finished, but it was fun while it lasted. Last flight was my long solo cross-country. Costs were around $50/hr for a Cessna 152 and about $45/hour for the instructor. This was flying out of BDR in southwestern CT. Looks like prices are averaging more than double now. Whew!
- tehwalrus 13y agowow. Americans and Canadians actually spell it, as well as say it, "airplane". weird. (mumble mumble aeroplane mumble)